I wonder if it's just coincidence that breakage suddenly seems easy or if whatever the effect was that made the weapons of those gnolls so much more durable than other iron weapons has been affected by the latest SCS version ...
Those weapons were never more durable than other iron weapons; they're standard halberds. They should have a 1% chance to break per hit, but it's actually 2% due to an off-by-one bug ... at least in 2.5. I don't know about older versions. If they seem more durable, that's because breakage chances only apply on actual hits, and these gnolls hit their target so rarely.
LoB does make a difference ... by increasing the number of hits Drizzt can take before he dies. It takes twenty-some halberd hits to kill him at lower difficulties, and around three times that at LoB difficulty.
The gnolls are different from standard gnolls, at least with SCS. Standard gnolls get proficiency in halberds and two-handed style, while Drizzt's assailants don't.
(In the current game version, melee attacks with breakable weapons cast a "break this" spell on a probability roll of <=1 out of 100. Since the game actually rolls 0-99, that's a 2% chance instead of 1%.)
Oh I know all about the perfectionism @Grond0. It may well have caused my lack of focus. Are there any mistakes you consider consequential?
As for the dual, I've considered dualling out of Bounty Hunter, because their traps scale with the levels of the new class. Dualling at level 9 into Mage is probably the most attractive out of the dual-classing options if you take into account HPs, backstab modifier and XP caps in BGEE and SoD. A fighter otoh would benefit the most from the traps because fighters have little in the way of crowd control.
However I just came up with something quite different, a Necromancer!
A class I never play. I got a good roll very quick, and as you can see she can dual into Fighter, Thief or Cleric. Which class would according to the connoisseurs benefit the most from a few Necromancer mage levels?
My original idea was Cleric for the various synergies: Ghoul Touch to paralyze an opponent (good for any class you dual into to be fair), and more potent Holy Smite, Poison, Slay Living, and Finger of Death spells.
I'm unsure whether it was a good call to go True Neutral, as evil would eventually give her the necromantic level 7 priest spell Destruction. Neutral evil would also make her skeleton warriors even more powerful (extra APR) with Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. On the other hand she should be able to cast Haste if she duals at level 5 or 6 and Righteous Wrath can be used for neutral summons I guess (mountain bears, aerial servants, elementals). And besides it has been her stealthy true neutral bunny rabbit that has activated the gnolls to attack Drizzt (three gnolls, so there's a significant risk not all of them will see their weapons break). Finally she wouldn't get Holy Smite as an evil character either.
Anyway, I'll keep you posted as to how she fares.
Edit: one of the gnolls' weapons didn't break and it killed Drizzt. I'll probably restart, again... Giving up 12k XP is huge.
Hey @Harpagornis! You're way ahead now. Nice work! I'm going out for a jog and some groceries. Nothing much else to do now with the gnolls occupied with Drizzt...
Oh, i hope you will be back soon @Blackraven! Are you rolling another Shadowdancer or trying out something new next time @Grond0?
I think it would just be restarting Wisp - principally so that he would get the intended use of scimitars as his main weapon for SoD, rather than staff. That would make a huge difference to his defense against missiles, to give him some sort of chance of survival if stealth failed near groups of enemies.
Oh, i hope you will be back soon @Blackraven! Are you rolling another Shadowdancer or trying out something new next time @Grond0?
I think it would just be restarting Wisp - principally so that he would get the intended use of scimitars as his main weapon for SoD, rather than staff. That would make a huge difference to his defense against missiles, to give him some sort of chance of survival if stealth failed near groups of enemies.
Ah that's right, a wasted pip in staff would have bothered me too...
Wasted pip in staff? Hello? Its the main stabbing weapon of Karla!
The Cloakwood was really thrilling due to lots of ambushes and not many resting options...
The first area was easy stab and skel to get the cloak and help the druids to kill Sashenstar.
The spider area was quick in and out to grab and sell Spiderbane but then.... the ambushes started...
I did not count them but the Wyvern and Ettercaps kept on coming and they really liked to poison Karla so i had to refresh Antidots at the FAI.
Molkar was the first group that managed to kill a Rage-Skel even though Karla managed to hold two of them. Once the Mage was killed and no Skels left it was all about stabbing the rest down.
Drasus was impossible on the first try as he buffed himself up with several potions and killed the skel in seconds so Karla dropped back and lured Genthore away from Drasus who afterwards got killed by a new Skel even though he landed several blows on Karla due to bad timing... ouch!
Traveling back to get some rest... more ambushes... and another mistiming drinking the antidot too late after a Wyvern managed to poison Karla... who was already down to 19 HP.
Second try on Drasus: This time the Skel could hold him long enough to land Hold Person - GG!
Davaeorn: Getting through the mines was easy and then Karla used Shadow Step plus Magic Blocking to trigger all traps. But against all expectations Davaeorn still triggered his speech even though time was standing still - funny. On the good side this lured his Horrors away so Karla had time to silence him on the third try while also calling in a Raging-Skel that immediately attacked the Mage. Karla joined the fun with some quick stabs to get through his stoneskin and right before the second guard wave arrived Davaeorn was already down to half health until Karla - who had just used a health potion - got too greedy allowing the incoming Archers to land five shots bringing her down to 11 HP before her aura was clear again and she managed to sneak around the corner. After this shock she healed up again, used one potion of mind focusing and started to fire +2 bullet stones at Daveaorns head. This took quite some time as two Mirror Images came out and she still had to roll 18+ to hit the evil mage. Even worse she wasted one charge from the Greenstone Amulet after she exptected the cast of Horror - which never came. 48 bullet stones later Davaeorn finally dropped down. With three or more skels this would have been a cake walk...
Too bad that i forgot to take screenshots as i was too thrilled and also too angry putting Karla into such a bad position exposing her neck for some easy shooting. Anyway: The gates to Baldurs Gate are open and combat is getting more and more... well... interesting.
Wasted pip in staff? Hello? Its the main stabbing weapon of Karla!
Haha sure, but Wisp had taken a pip before and after dualing to Fighter...
Luck has been on your side @Harpagornis. I find the city one the easiest parts of the game. In fact I think you have the hardest part of BG1 already behind you! And I have everything ahead still...
Dont put my that high so early @Blackraven! The coronation will be hard... and maybe the Ogre Ambush. There may be some easy parts ahead but thats exactly the time when things might start to go wrong... lack of focus... overconfidence... and there is always a chance that some @Grond0 effect strikes out of nowhere!
I wonder if it's just coincidence that breakage suddenly seems easy or if whatever the effect was that made the weapons of those gnolls so much more durable than other iron weapons has been affected by the latest SCS version ...
Those weapons were never more durable than other iron weapons; they're standard halberds. They should have a 1% chance to break per hit, but it's actually 2% due to an off-by-one bug ... at least in 2.5. I don't know about older versions. If they seem more durable, that's because breakage chances only apply on actual hits, and these gnolls hit their target so rarely.
LoB does make a difference ... by increasing the number of hits Drizzt can take before he dies. It takes twenty-some halberd hits to kill him at lower difficulties, and around three times that at LoB difficulty.
The gnolls are different from standard gnolls, at least with SCS. Standard gnolls get proficiency in halberds and two-handed style, while Drizzt's assailants don't.
(In the current game version, melee attacks with breakable weapons cast a "break this" spell on a probability roll of <=1 out of 100. Since the game actually rolls 0-99, that's a 2% chance instead of 1%.)
@jmerry I hate to think how many hundreds of times I've killed Drizzt, but certainly enough to form an opinion. There was a distinct change following one of the EE version upgrades which altered the behavior of those particular gnolls' weapons (but not others). Prior to that a single gnoll would pretty reliably break its weapon when attacking him in LoB (which is what you would expect as it will take around 90 hits with a halberd to kill him). As a result I just left them attacking without any monitoring. Subsequent to that it was a toss-up whether they would kill him and for some time now I've been interrupting the combat after 25 minutes or so and running off the map to reset the combat if the gnoll has not broken its weapon.
My sample size running SCS v33 is too small to make any conclusions about whether that's changed things, but I'm in no doubt that (in my installation anyway) there was previously something special about the weapons of those gnolls.
Executive Summary: After explaining how he'd do it legitimately, Angelo abuses the slayer form to clear the Eastern Tunnels.
"Matron Ardulace warned of mindflayers in the Eastern Tunnels," Felicity reminded Angelo. "You've used more charms, Mislead and tricks recently... is there anything you wouldn't do to complete perhaps the toughest area in BG2?"
"I've given this considerable thought," he admitted, "but I've decided that readers deserve to know the easiest way through this area... they can decide for themselves whether what I do is an exploit or not."
Illicit Illithid Information
Any illithid was best encountered after a night's rest, but Felicity's scream awoke him an hour into his slumber. "I had a nightmare," the imp explained, "you were fighting in an arena overseen by an ogre, killing umber hulks and kuo-toa... but their flow was endless and you collapsed from exhaustion. I'm scared that once you enter, you won't be able to rest."
Angelo took heed of her musings - she wasn't called Felicity Foresight for nothing! - and compiled the SCS illithids' abilities (can BG gurus like @jmerry or @semiticgoddess correct or add any details I've missed?):
Psionic Blast - stuns for 5 rounds, save v spell, once every 12 seconds
Psychic Domination - Domination, save v spell at -4 penalty, once every 12 seconds
Psionic Maze - save v spell, once every 18 seconds
Detonate - 5d12 magic damage, no save, instantly destroys skeleton warriors, once every 12 seconds
Ballistic Attack - 5d12 crushing damage, no save, once every 12 seconds
Improved Invisibility - once every 12 seconds
Planar Travel - Dimension Door, once every 18 seconds
All illithids can also see hidden characters, have 50% physical resistance, 5 ApR and their crushing attacks drain 5 intelligence for 30 seconds. LoB Mindflayers have ThAC0 8, 284 HP, effective saving throws (P/P/D, R/S/W, P/P, BW, S) of 5, 6, 6, 5, 5 and 90% Magic Resistance. LoB Ulitharids can Cure Serious Wounds once every 12 seconds, have ThAC0 7, 368 HP, effective saving throws (P/P/D, R/S/W, P/P, BW, S) of 3, 4, 4, 4, 3 and 95% Magic Resistance. Since LoB raises monster hit dice, measures like Death Spell or Deathblow wouldn't be effective.
Some strategies could be gleaned from this info dump. Summons would be disabled (no Chaotic Commands for this F/M/T!) and/or detonated apart from Mordenkainen's Sword, which wouldn't do much damage before departing. However, direct magical attack was suicide... combined with lack of resting, wizards would be in trouble! The best tactics would involve tanking AC against blunt weapons and thrashing 'em in physical combat. Weapons with elemental damage would be preferable, since illithids possessed no elemental resistance. Illithids also couldn't dispel magic, so Protection from Magic Weapons (mindflayers strike as +2 weapons) and buffs would be useful.
Although MR wouldn't stop these psionic attacks (they weren't magical!), most depended on failing saving throws, so pumping these could avoid their effects. Strangely, the cloak of mirroring shut down Detonate, but Protection from Magical Energy also prevented it and the belt of inertial barrier or potion of magic shielding softened its effects. Unfortunately, there was little Angelo could do to stop Ballistic Attack, possessing none of the possible countermeasures (which stacked crushing resistance). The greatest risk, therefore, was being overwhelmed by multiple Intelligence drains or Ballistic Attacks: gulping multiple potions of genius would nullify the former (their effects stacked past 25, even if they didn't display on the character sheet) and generous health potions would somewhat counter the latter.
Angelo cast Stoneskin and Invisibility before resuming his rest. The dawn was appraching and he had to be prepared.
"My Name is Angelo Decimus Meridius..."
Despite entering the Eastern Tunnels invisible, the illithids sensed his presence on the circular platform and sprung an ambush which laid Angelo (Ange)low. An ogre jailor poked him awake and Angelo followed to find himself facing a trio of umber hulks. However, neither the ambush nor the ogre's cutscenes had broken his invisibility (the jailor's dialogue had auto-initiated), so the umber hulks didn't spot Angelo creeping right. Sensing the mindflayers would instantly kill him if he tried to leave, Angelo cast Mislead out of sight and made his clone invisible. Clutching his shield of harmony (umber hulks had been known to erroneously fire their spores on Mislead-users), Angelo slaughtered the monsters to the crowd's unrelenting boos.
Back in his cell, Angelo introduced himself to Simyaz, leader of a githyanki troupe also fighting in the arena. They seemed friendly, but Angelo tried stealing from them all nevertheless (none had anything) out of habit. They returned from the arena with gossip that they and Angelo were to battle next, but if they concentrated their mental powers, an escape opportunity might arise. Acquiescing to this plan, there was enough time to cast Protection from Normal Weapons and Fireshield: Red after this second dialogue was complete before being summoned - he'd already fought the umber hulks, and kuo-toa were next in Felicity's vision.
The rumours were well placed, as Angelo's next opponents were the githyanki and some kuo-toa (perhaps the crowd hoped that the kuo-toa's True Sight would cancel Angelo's dreadfully unfair Mislead). True to their words, the githyanki engaged the mindflayers in mental combat, leaving Angelo to deal with the kuo-toa. Only the monitor was initially in sight, bounding over as Angelo ducked right to summon an elemental, but all its 6 ApR used a normal weapon. Sending the elemental to deal with the other approaching kuo-toa (a captain, lieutenant and warrior) while their bolts bounced off his reflection shield, Angelo let the monitor commit fiery suicide, then picked the lock on the arena door and left, shutting it behind him.
The door can be opened anytime after the githyankin engage the crowd, but be careful not to hit them with any accidental AoE!
After his elemental finished the kuo-toa off (being immune to their weapons, this was inevitable), Angelo lured the jailor into the arena. While initially hoping the elemental would kill the jailor too, Angelo realised the ogre had 800 HP, 50% physical resistance and -16 AC... despite the elemental's immunity to normal weapons, the conjuration would expire before the jailor would perish. Instead, Angelo cast Greater Malison on the jailor, then protected himself with the boots of etherealness, using the distraction to hack it with Harbinger, an ogre-petrifying sword purchased from Ust Natha bazaar.
The jailor's LoB saving throws are effectively 0, hence the Greater Malison. Incidentally, although you could petrify Boz, you wouldn’t be able to collect his Dragon’s Breath +4.
Slave to the Rhythm Master Brain
Having donned his drow full plate mail +5, cloak of mirroring and girdle of crushing (from Brynnlaw), Angelo took The Equaliser's hilt, drank 3 potions of genius (making his Intelligence 31) and went eastwards. Pools of sulphurous liquid greeted him, along with a single mindflayer. Here, the greenstone amulet was reliable enough to protect against the psionics (its 1 turn duration would likely be sufficient), but the mindflayer kept annoyingly using Ballistic Attack and vanishing while it recharged. To counter this 'You Take Damage Now' button, Angelo drank copious potions of extra healing while Detect Illusion dispelled its invisibility. Eventually, it escaped via planar travel, denying Angelo its XP but allowing vials of illithid serum to be gathered without further incident.
Heading southwards, Angelo set as many snares as he could before opening the door. Traps were a illithid's unspoken weakness and all varieties kept them honest. This time, a pair of mindflayers set upon him with one suffering the stacked poison arrows. Fortunately, their Ballistic Attacks were staggered, so Angelo had enough time to swallow potions of extra healing between waves. Still, refreshing the greenstone amulet was fiddly inbetween ensuring that the next Ballistic Attack wouldn't kill him and taking on more than two at once would surely be the death of him.
Pouring the serum into the pulsing machine freed the slaves, and Angelo crafted 4 control circlets from the central contraption before it gave out. The slave leader suggested using the circlets on the mindflayers, but noting that they would work on any creature while bypassing MR and saving throw, Angelo hoped to save them for use elsewhere.
Wizards and rogues should probably skip this section and return at the end to clear up. Resting before the master brain dies will always be interrupted by a mindflayer, so you should conserve your rescources, but you can rest safely afterwards.
Mind Flayer or Mind Slayer?
Heading north, Angelo took Methild's harp but found the eastern door (leading to freedom) held fast. He then examined the western door, discovering only a powerful mind or godly strength could open it. The latter referred to 25 Strength, but Felicity said that Draw Upon Holy Might, Crom Faeyr and barbarian rage wouldn't work... only the slayer would suffice. There were two such doors, she told him, each requiring a nearby mindflayer (which need not be charmed via a control circlet) or slayer protagonist to open, with the second being guarded by 6 mindflayers, 2 ulitharids and an umber hulk.
Even with his defences, Angelo would be dead if multiple illithids applied Ballistic Attack simultaneously. There seemed little he could do to prevent this, but Felicity had mentioned the slayer and this would solve a number of problems. Its extra HP and physical resistance would soften the ballistic impacts and the regeneration would ensure recovery between waves. Although its saving throws, ThAC0 and AC would be set, equipment (other than weapons and shields) would still function, so he could be effectively immune to any psionics requiring a saving throw and vulnerable only to critical hits. Finally, his ApR would be set to 4 (5 including his warrior bonus) and each attack would do cold damage (i.e. elemental damage!).
The problem would be that the slayer would take increasing magic damage, culminating in a 1,500 HP blast. However, in yet another nice feature, Protection from Magical Energy would not only guard against Detonate, it would also prevent this damage, allowing indefinite transformation beyond the final burst. And although the slayer form disallowed casting the spell himself, scrolls suffered no such prohibition and Angelo's solitude provided no adjacent targets to assail when he momentarily lost control.
Angelo has enough XP for an intermediate, SCS slayer form... which allows saving your game!
Approaching the barred door was enough to break it open, prompting the githyanki to appear and grant 25,000 XP before teleporting away. Vowing to get even later, Angelo strode down the corridor with his helm of Balduran, ring of protection +2 and amulet of spell warding equipped (making his save v spells -3). It was time to kick some illithid ass!
Yippee Ki Yay, Mind Flayer!
The result, dear readers, was a bloodbath. Before Angelo had even reached the second security door's guardians, he faced an initial set of mindflayers and umber hulks. They left empty handed - Angelo severed them at the wrists - but their deaths provided a warmup. Although Angelo needed no further protection from psionics, he took the 8 brine potions from the northern chamber, slaughtering any mindflayers in his way.
The large illithid pack swarmed Angelo, hoping to wear him down, but they interspersed their tentacular assaults with wandering invisibly, wasting time during which their brain drains expired. Although this confused his targeting, Detect Illusion stopped them hidden for long and their propensity to flee when injured gave Angelo an easier time of thinning their ranks. He initially concentrated on killing mindflayers, since ulitharids could self-heal and umber hulks weren't dangerous. He also kept drinking potions of extra healing, because it was still easy to get overwhelmed here, and wasn't averse to retreating for a breather, shutting doors to hinder illithids' ability to teleport onto him.
After the dust had settled, Angelo ventured northwest, killing more monsters and grabbing the staff of command; heading south, he retrieved a ring of fire control from an insane dwarf warrior's body, but didn't bother investigating the other cells. Smashing the second security door to unlock the top chamber, Angelo drew the troops away to be hacked in private before tackling the master brain. A special illithid, in addition to Detonate, Ballistic Attack, Psionic Maze and Psionic Domination, it had Ego Whip (like Psionic Blast, but save v death, single target and affected by MR) and Psionic Disjunction (a renamed Remove Magic once every 2 minutes that Spell Immunity: Abjuration blocks). However, despite its -16 AC, 690 HP and 50% physical resistance, it had 0% MR and poor saving throws (an effective LoB save v spell of 11)... all it took was a single Disintegrate scroll to, well, disintegrate it!
When the master brain was attacked, it summoned 2 brain golems and would have summoned more periodically until it died. Such golems were only affected by >+2 blunt weapons and were immune to the rod of smiting, so Angelo fled. The slayer's free action slowed his boots of speed, so he returned to human form and cast Invisibility to escape. Finally, he met the slave leader in the now accessible entrance chamber for 40,000 XP before leaving the Eastern Tunnels for good.
It IS possible to complete this section without abusing slayer, but it's MUCH harder. For Angelo, this would involve scribing scrolls after drinking the potions of genius to go up levels with the XP scribing bonus and instantly acquire more HLAs. He'd also pump his health with stacked potions of heroism and dual-wield Defender of Easthaven for crushing resistance.
"Perhaps you were too elegant in your earlier playing style," Felicity remarked. "If you'd have taken some easy kills, you'd be higher level and the Eastern Tunnels wouldn't have been so tough." There was some truth in this, Angelo acknowledged, but by hook or by crook, he had escaped with his life... now to reap the rewards!
Drat. Trying again I'd had a good start - up to level 4, with maximum 32 HPs and having purchased everything I wanted at minimum prices. At High Hedge I tried to get another level by killing the first golem. That was actually pretty easy to hit with +3 staff, but I'd missed 6 or 7 attacks in a row with single figure attack rolls and just lost a tiny bit of concentration. After the next attack I was marginally slow in backing away and the golem took instant advantage.
Karla joined the fun with some quick stabs to get through his stoneskin and right before the second guard wave arrived Davaeorn was already down to half health until Karla - who had just used a health potion - got too greedy allowing the incoming Archers to land five shots bringing her down to 11 HP before her aura was clear again and she managed to sneak around the corner. After this shock she healed up again, used one potion of mind focusing and started to fire +2 bullet stones at Daveaorns head.
BTW @Harpagornis, was the above in conformity with the restriction set by Cyric's curse? According to it, potions can only be consumed during battle. Or is it permissible to run away, heal/buff up with potions, and return to fight after that? I'm asking not because I want to criticize your gameplay, but because I've started another Fighter/Thief (my Necromancer got unlucky with Drizzt a second time, which I took as a sign of the Gods to go back to the original plan), and I haven't decided yet which curse to lift.
I'm probably sticking to inventory access during combat, i.e. lifting Tempus's curse, even if Cyric's curse can be circumvented somewhat by initiating combat, retreating from it, and then quaffing your potions.
Even this more lenient take on Cyric's curse provides a clear advantage to casters still, as they can pre-buff with spells and are less potion-reliant. It makes me wonder whether a Fighter/Cleric would be a better pick than a Fighter/Thief?
Sorry @Grond0, about your loss, here's hoping we can both make some good progress soon, before Harpagornis takes down Belhifet with Karla.
Hey Blackraven, thanks for pointing that one out as we maybe should clarify when a character leaves combat. Is it if he retreats out of enemy vision? Or as long as combat music is playing? What if the char retreats but his summon keeps on fighting... like in Karla´s case? She could get in two potions until the Skel went down while the others were used whenever she shot Davaeorn out of stealth and combat started going invisible only half a second later. If you are able to put this into some clear words that might help future challengers!
Oh, we could change Cyrics curse to potions AND spell prebuffing but this looks realy nasty!
Oh, we could change Cyrics curse to potions AND spell prebuffing but this looks realy nasty!
I considered suggesting this too. It could work perfectly well for mages. They'd just have to set up defensive sequencers and contingencies. A Druid having to cast Ironskins in battle is another matter though...
Maybe we could limit pre-buffing to long-duration buffs that last for two hours minimum? That would allow a Mage to have Spirit Armor or Stoneskin up, and a Druid Ironskins. Same with most elemental resistance spells. Not sure if the same should apply to potions. There are some that last exactly two hours, like the strength potions and the elemental resistance potions, heroism, and mind focusing. But others such as magic shielding, magic blocking, invulnerability, speed, stone form, and regeneration all have shorter durations.
If we were to make a distinction between long and short duration, I'd advocate a very strict take on the short duration buffs: character has to be in sight of enemies and combat mode has to be active (music playing / health bars visible). If you guys don't like such a distinction then I'd be ok with a more forgiving curse that allows for running away / hiding etc.
Come to think of it, a very strict interpretation of potion usage would also force mages to quaff mind focusing and genius potions in battle to reliably copy spells into their spellbooks.
I like to get the rules plain and simple @Blackraven. If we add more and more exceptions or add exact definitions they will get longer and longer so i will have to print and put them right next to my PC maybe calling my lawyer before taking any action! But lets hear what @Grond0 has to say about that!
I think that as long combat music plays short retreats and buffing/healing is okay but thats the talking from someone he really likes guerilla warfare.
I really like @Grond0´s point that Beastmasters should get more love so i would like to make a small change to Malar´s curse:
Malar: Except for Beast Masters only one summon spell can be active in combat
As Malar is also called the Beast Lord this makes perfect sense to me and i think that this rule should also take place for dual class Beastmaster/Cleric´s. What do you think?
BTW @AvidGamerFan, would be great to have you join in on the fun, but I'd understand if you passed because I think you already have two runs going (Angelo and another undocumented one).
I'm definitely looking forward to getting involved, but I suspect I'll leave it for a little bit. I'm already prone to restart-itis and if Angelo's adventures get too sidetracked, my momentum will stall completely. I'm not going to start posting my undocumented run until Angelo finishes, but I'll be much lighter on details second time around. Hopefully, the new challenge's rules will have been confirmed by that time and I'll be able to join in wholeheartedly.
I like the fact that these new challenges try to limit casters and non-casters equally. While it's good that the wizard slayer challenge prohibits some naughty tricks, it's basically impossible for non-casters to leave the starting blocks. I also like the customisability of the new challenges, as this allows some aspect of meaningful choices and further tactical nuance. It's amazing that we're almost saying that LoB-SCS-solo isn't hard enough already and more difficulty is required to keep it interesting.
My only concern is that (as people are discovering) it may start to become too complicated. One good thing about the wizard slayer challenge is that it's simple to understand. Even with the adventurer challenge, I had questions. Can you spend gold on upgrading items (e.g. Cespenar)? What about getting upgrades that didn't require any gold (e.g. HUman Flesh +5, Big Metal Unit)? Personally, I would deny the former, but allow the latter. Similarly, does the inability to 'use' spell scrolls in a poverty run extend only to use from quickslots or does it stop wizards from learning them as well? I'd guess neither are permitted, but you never know...
I'm guessing that A'ec Letec is a deliberate omission from the BG villain list? I'd definitely add Morentherene (how's a cleric going to tackle her?) and neothelid to the SoD boss list. If we're aiming for players not to simply skip tough encounters, perhaps we could specify that players must ally with the shadow thieves in Athkatla, collect all three noble items in the Underdark and so on? Might need some balancing to maintain meaningful player choices, but definitely something to think about.
Yeah, take your time @AvidGamerFan! As you can see some rules are still in motion. But i think that together we can get the right "balance".
Regarding the Adventurer Challenge i think its okay to upgrade items if you dont have to spent gold. And for the Poverty Challenge: No items means no items!
Aéc Letec is tricky cause this means every class would be forced to go through Durlags Tower cause even if one skips the demon we still have to face the Knight.
I was already wondering if any Cleric related class would be able to kill Karoug as all weapons that could harm him are not usable by them? Would Glyph stacking work? I lack experience here as i can see!
Adding Morentherene and the Neothelid are fine for me - what about the others?
I think that as long combat music plays short retreats and buffing/healing is okay but thats the talking from someone he really likes guerilla warfare.
I'm ok with this, although @Grond0 never plays with sound on. I assume the health bars over the sprites work the same way.
I really like @Grond0´s point that Beastmasters should get more love so i would like to make a small change to Malar´s curse:
Malar: Except for Beast Masters only one summon spell can be active in combat
As Malar is also called the Beast Lord this makes perfect sense to me and i think that this rule should also take place for dual class Beastmaster/Cleric´s. What do you think?
Again, something I'd be totally fine with, and I agree with the both of you that Beastmasters deserve more love. But this could be a slippery slope. The other day we redefined Mask's curse so that the PC has to draw blood and be the recipient of one attack, whether that be a physical or non-physical attack (such as a basilisk gaze) or a mix such as a ghast's paralytic attack. What does that mean for Wizard Slayers, who can't get gaze protection and who can't get free action until they burn a PfMagic scroll to acquire Spider's Bane in Cloakwood?
@AvidGamerFan, your decision to stay focused on Angelo makes a lot of sense.
I agree with @Harpagornis on Aec'Letec and would argue that the Demon Lord should be sufficient. Or we could remove the Demon Lord from the list and add Aec'Letec instead.
Not sure of glyph stacking vs Karoug. Would be my first thought too (a whole lot of them because of his resistances).
If we add more foes to the list, such as Morentherene and the Neothelid, should we then lower the amount of enemies that have to be slain?
Mask: Except for Wizard Slayers retreats from ambushes are only possible after drawing blood from an enemy and absorbing at least one attack
Any kind of Slayer should always please Mask! Maybe @Grond0 now gets foolish enough to try one!
These tweaks make Wizard Slayer and Beast Master duals quite alluring. Even I'm tempted right now. A Wizard Slayer 7 -> 8 Druid, Mage or Thief might work with a lot of farming. They have a bit easier in the early game thanks to their right to run away from ambushes.
Beastmasters have the downside of not being able to complete a dual from level 7 (extra 1/2 attack) to Cleric 8 within BG1EE, but I suppose they can still tackle the Ducal Palace as lvl 7 Clerics with five skeleton warriors...
Yeah, i can see that the boss list is growing and for some classes several foes are impossible to beat. To some degree i like that everyone has to beat Durlags Tower if we add the demon and the knight but yeah this pushes the challenge even more. I really would like to hear what @Grond0 says about the new stuff!
Maybe no skipping per part but the old idea of skipping a fixed number at all?
Yeah, i like the idea a lot to give Wizard Slayers and Beastmasters a little bit more freedom @Blackraven!
I also reworked the Selune curse a little bit cause in the wilderness its often times not allowed to rest IN houses so i changed this into NEAR houses. I hope this is okay for everyone!
Selune: Resting is only allowed in inns and cleared dungeon floors. In the wilderness it only works near houses or in caves
Okay, here is an idea to put Cyric into a new spot while also getting it short and simple. Hopefully.
Cyric: No prebuffing with potions or memorized spells unless they last at least two hours
This still gives Fighters the option to drink Heroism potions, while Mages still can cast short lasting buffs but they have to sacrifice a scroll. Good idea or have i missed something?
Just dipping out of work, which is a bit hectic today, so I can't take too long .
I see the discussion is still pretty active . I've not given up on Wisp, but did start Shagrat the shaman again early this morning. The difficulty with his previous run was the lack of ways to go invisible or protect against magic, so the Cataclysm challenge should be much more achievable than the previous wizard slayer one.
In relation to points referred to above:
- I certainly interpreted the potions restriction as preventing any use except in battle (and yes, I did think that meant that things like boosting intelligence could only be done then - that was a potential problem for Wisp because he had to initiate a combat if he wanted to steal something). I don't personally see any real reason to relax that rule.
- I would judge combat in terms of whether the game is applying combat restrictions (like no saving or resting) - I suspect that would equate to battle music playing, though I'm not certain.
- I'm not sure about extending potions restriction to spells as that significantly impacts on complexity. It also makes it a bit of a pain if you want to do things like cast knock spells.
- OK with beastmasters being allowed more summons.
- if adding more combats from SoD, I would have thought you should also do that with other games. I'm not sure it's necessary to have a longer list though.
- Morentherene is vulnerable to fire, so even in LoB using wand of heavens is perfectly viable for her for a cleric, so long as you're protected against fear and poison.
- I don't think PfM helps WS get free action as I think the web tangle from spiders is counted as a natural attack. That's why you need a big dose of luck to get a WS past the Cloakwood in SCS (though I have done that at least a couple of times).
I think that the buff restriction to spells should not harm too much, if prebuffing is only related to combat. So that would still allow Knock spells or Thieving Potion. This should also allow healing out of combat, no?
Cyric: No combat related prebuffing with potions or memorized spells unless they last at least two hours
Still too harsh or getting too complicated? Adding more combat to our list would be okay but then we should rework the number of skips too to give the players some freedom which ones they want to face.
Morentherene is quite easy for several combos as the beast can be instakilled with a Throwing Dagger. For others its just "a bit" of work.
Another idea would be that class combos like Wizard Slayer or Beast Master are allowed to get two boons that they can choose among the gods. What about this?
Combat Music should be fine cause once its over you can rest again... even though there is a short delay.
Wow... that was the shortest trip for a very long time... thanks to the new rules and especially Mask!
I rolled a fine 96 creating Lilli the Berserker who should be dualed at level 7 to Druid but.. fate did not smile upon her. First she got ambushed by a Ghast when traveling south from High Hedge. Berserker Stance helped to avoid getting paralyzed but she still needed 19 Throwing Daggers to land a crit. Next travel from Bassilus area to Drizzt... five Archer Skeletons who instahitted her while she failed to land any throw. One Healing Potion was used... another one... but still no hits... while HP went down from 14 to 2.... to 0. GG!
One thing I meant to check. Ilmater disallows all containers, which severely restricts what you can carry round. I'm not clear though whether you can sell things to shops and then buy them back later. I haven't been allowing that, but wasn't sure if that restriction was intended - for instance I wouldn't bother carrying that dagger you get from the ankheg round for much of the game, but I might sell it and buy it back if that were allowed.
It feels like it's been a long day - but the day's not getting any longer for Shagrat. That was a known risk - coming in to melee a greater basilisk after it was paralyzed. With the saving throw fix it's not particularly unusual for those to save against multiple further attacks and return the gaze of whatever intrepid hero has come to look longingly into its eyes ...
Just checking in to say that I a considering buying a hat - just so I could tip for you all.
When I first started following this thread I thought that the challenge would be too much for anybody to accomplish. Now the thread is flooded with rules to make the feat even harder. Bravo I dare say...
Comments
LoB does make a difference ... by increasing the number of hits Drizzt can take before he dies. It takes twenty-some halberd hits to kill him at lower difficulties, and around three times that at LoB difficulty.
The gnolls are different from standard gnolls, at least with SCS. Standard gnolls get proficiency in halberds and two-handed style, while Drizzt's assailants don't.
(In the current game version, melee attacks with breakable weapons cast a "break this" spell on a probability roll of <=1 out of 100. Since the game actually rolls 0-99, that's a 2% chance instead of 1%.)
As for the dual, I've considered dualling out of Bounty Hunter, because their traps scale with the levels of the new class. Dualling at level 9 into Mage is probably the most attractive out of the dual-classing options if you take into account HPs, backstab modifier and XP caps in BGEE and SoD. A fighter otoh would benefit the most from the traps because fighters have little in the way of crowd control.
However I just came up with something quite different, a Necromancer!
A class I never play. I got a good roll very quick, and as you can see she can dual into Fighter, Thief or Cleric. Which class would according to the connoisseurs benefit the most from a few Necromancer mage levels?
My original idea was Cleric for the various synergies: Ghoul Touch to paralyze an opponent (good for any class you dual into to be fair), and more potent Holy Smite, Poison, Slay Living, and Finger of Death spells.
I'm unsure whether it was a good call to go True Neutral, as evil would eventually give her the necromantic level 7 priest spell Destruction. Neutral evil would also make her skeleton warriors even more powerful (extra APR) with Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. On the other hand she should be able to cast Haste if she duals at level 5 or 6 and Righteous Wrath can be used for neutral summons I guess (mountain bears, aerial servants, elementals). And besides it has been her stealthy true neutral bunny rabbit that has activated the gnolls to attack Drizzt (three gnolls, so there's a significant risk not all of them will see their weapons break). Finally she wouldn't get Holy Smite as an evil character either.
Anyway, I'll keep you posted as to how she fares.
Edit: one of the gnolls' weapons didn't break and it killed Drizzt. I'll probably restart, again... Giving up 12k XP is huge.
I think it would just be restarting Wisp - principally so that he would get the intended use of scimitars as his main weapon for SoD, rather than staff. That would make a huge difference to his defense against missiles, to give him some sort of chance of survival if stealth failed near groups of enemies.
Ah that's right, a wasted pip in staff would have bothered me too...
The Cloakwood was really thrilling due to lots of ambushes and not many resting options...
The first area was easy stab and skel to get the cloak and help the druids to kill Sashenstar.
The spider area was quick in and out to grab and sell Spiderbane but then.... the ambushes started...
I did not count them but the Wyvern and Ettercaps kept on coming and they really liked to poison Karla so i had to refresh Antidots at the FAI.
Molkar was the first group that managed to kill a Rage-Skel even though Karla managed to hold two of them. Once the Mage was killed and no Skels left it was all about stabbing the rest down.
Drasus was impossible on the first try as he buffed himself up with several potions and killed the skel in seconds so Karla dropped back and lured Genthore away from Drasus who afterwards got killed by a new Skel even though he landed several blows on Karla due to bad timing... ouch!
Traveling back to get some rest... more ambushes... and another mistiming drinking the antidot too late after a Wyvern managed to poison Karla... who was already down to 19 HP.
Second try on Drasus: This time the Skel could hold him long enough to land Hold Person - GG!
Davaeorn: Getting through the mines was easy and then Karla used Shadow Step plus Magic Blocking to trigger all traps. But against all expectations Davaeorn still triggered his speech even though time was standing still - funny. On the good side this lured his Horrors away so Karla had time to silence him on the third try while also calling in a Raging-Skel that immediately attacked the Mage. Karla joined the fun with some quick stabs to get through his stoneskin and right before the second guard wave arrived Davaeorn was already down to half health until Karla - who had just used a health potion - got too greedy allowing the incoming Archers to land five shots bringing her down to 11 HP before her aura was clear again and she managed to sneak around the corner. After this shock she healed up again, used one potion of mind focusing and started to fire +2 bullet stones at Daveaorns head. This took quite some time as two Mirror Images came out and she still had to roll 18+ to hit the evil mage. Even worse she wasted one charge from the Greenstone Amulet after she exptected the cast of Horror - which never came. 48 bullet stones later Davaeorn finally dropped down. With three or more skels this would have been a cake walk...
Too bad that i forgot to take screenshots as i was too thrilled and also too angry putting Karla into such a bad position exposing her neck for some easy shooting. Anyway: The gates to Baldurs Gate are open and combat is getting more and more... well... interesting.
Haha sure, but Wisp had taken a pip before and after dualing to Fighter...
Luck has been on your side @Harpagornis. I find the city one the easiest parts of the game. In fact I think you have the hardest part of BG1 already behind you! And I have everything ahead still...
@jmerry I hate to think how many hundreds of times I've killed Drizzt, but certainly enough to form an opinion. There was a distinct change following one of the EE version upgrades which altered the behavior of those particular gnolls' weapons (but not others). Prior to that a single gnoll would pretty reliably break its weapon when attacking him in LoB (which is what you would expect as it will take around 90 hits with a halberd to kill him). As a result I just left them attacking without any monitoring. Subsequent to that it was a toss-up whether they would kill him and for some time now I've been interrupting the combat after 25 minutes or so and running off the map to reset the combat if the gnoll has not broken its weapon.
My sample size running SCS v33 is too small to make any conclusions about whether that's changed things, but I'm in no doubt that (in my installation anyway) there was previously something special about the weapons of those gnolls.
Executive Summary: After explaining how he'd do it legitimately, Angelo abuses the slayer form to clear the Eastern Tunnels.
"Matron Ardulace warned of mindflayers in the Eastern Tunnels," Felicity reminded Angelo. "You've used more charms, Mislead and tricks recently... is there anything you wouldn't do to complete perhaps the toughest area in BG2?"
"I've given this considerable thought," he admitted, "but I've decided that readers deserve to know the easiest way through this area... they can decide for themselves whether what I do is an exploit or not."
Angelo took heed of her musings - she wasn't called Felicity Foresight for nothing! - and compiled the SCS illithids' abilities (can BG gurus like @jmerry or @semiticgoddess correct or add any details I've missed?):
Some strategies could be gleaned from this info dump. Summons would be disabled (no Chaotic Commands for this F/M/T!) and/or detonated apart from Mordenkainen's Sword, which wouldn't do much damage before departing. However, direct magical attack was suicide... combined with lack of resting, wizards would be in trouble! The best tactics would involve tanking AC against blunt weapons and thrashing 'em in physical combat. Weapons with elemental damage would be preferable, since illithids possessed no elemental resistance. Illithids also couldn't dispel magic, so Protection from Magic Weapons (mindflayers strike as +2 weapons) and buffs would be useful.
Although MR wouldn't stop these psionic attacks (they weren't magical!), most depended on failing saving throws, so pumping these could avoid their effects. Strangely, the cloak of mirroring shut down Detonate, but Protection from Magical Energy also prevented it and the belt of inertial barrier or potion of magic shielding softened its effects. Unfortunately, there was little Angelo could do to stop Ballistic Attack, possessing none of the possible countermeasures (which stacked crushing resistance). The greatest risk, therefore, was being overwhelmed by multiple Intelligence drains or Ballistic Attacks: gulping multiple potions of genius would nullify the former (their effects stacked past 25, even if they didn't display on the character sheet) and generous health potions would somewhat counter the latter.
Angelo cast Stoneskin and Invisibility before resuming his rest. The dawn was appraching and he had to be prepared.
Back in his cell, Angelo introduced himself to Simyaz, leader of a githyanki troupe also fighting in the arena. They seemed friendly, but Angelo tried stealing from them all nevertheless (none had anything) out of habit. They returned from the arena with gossip that they and Angelo were to battle next, but if they concentrated their mental powers, an escape opportunity might arise. Acquiescing to this plan, there was enough time to cast Protection from Normal Weapons and Fireshield: Red after this second dialogue was complete before being summoned - he'd already fought the umber hulks, and kuo-toa were next in Felicity's vision.
The rumours were well placed, as Angelo's next opponents were the githyanki and some kuo-toa (perhaps the crowd hoped that the kuo-toa's True Sight would cancel Angelo's dreadfully unfair Mislead). True to their words, the githyanki engaged the mindflayers in mental combat, leaving Angelo to deal with the kuo-toa. Only the monitor was initially in sight, bounding over as Angelo ducked right to summon an elemental, but all its 6 ApR used a normal weapon. Sending the elemental to deal with the other approaching kuo-toa (a captain, lieutenant and warrior) while their bolts bounced off his reflection shield, Angelo let the monitor commit fiery suicide, then picked the lock on the arena door and left, shutting it behind him.
The door can be opened anytime after the githyankin engage the crowd, but be careful not to hit them with any accidental AoE!
After his elemental finished the kuo-toa off (being immune to their weapons, this was inevitable), Angelo lured the jailor into the arena. While initially hoping the elemental would kill the jailor too, Angelo realised the ogre had 800 HP, 50% physical resistance and -16 AC... despite the elemental's immunity to normal weapons, the conjuration would expire before the jailor would perish. Instead, Angelo cast Greater Malison on the jailor, then protected himself with the boots of etherealness, using the distraction to hack it with Harbinger, an ogre-petrifying sword purchased from Ust Natha bazaar.
The jailor's LoB saving throws are effectively 0, hence the Greater Malison. Incidentally, although you could petrify Boz, you wouldn’t be able to collect his Dragon’s Breath +4.
Heading southwards, Angelo set as many snares as he could before opening the door. Traps were a illithid's unspoken weakness and all varieties kept them honest. This time, a pair of mindflayers set upon him with one suffering the stacked poison arrows. Fortunately, their Ballistic Attacks were staggered, so Angelo had enough time to swallow potions of extra healing between waves. Still, refreshing the greenstone amulet was fiddly inbetween ensuring that the next Ballistic Attack wouldn't kill him and taking on more than two at once would surely be the death of him.
Pouring the serum into the pulsing machine freed the slaves, and Angelo crafted 4 control circlets from the central contraption before it gave out. The slave leader suggested using the circlets on the mindflayers, but noting that they would work on any creature while bypassing MR and saving throw, Angelo hoped to save them for use elsewhere.
Wizards and rogues should probably skip this section and return at the end to clear up. Resting before the master brain dies will always be interrupted by a mindflayer, so you should conserve your rescources, but you can rest safely afterwards.
Even with his defences, Angelo would be dead if multiple illithids applied Ballistic Attack simultaneously. There seemed little he could do to prevent this, but Felicity had mentioned the slayer and this would solve a number of problems. Its extra HP and physical resistance would soften the ballistic impacts and the regeneration would ensure recovery between waves. Although its saving throws, ThAC0 and AC would be set, equipment (other than weapons and shields) would still function, so he could be effectively immune to any psionics requiring a saving throw and vulnerable only to critical hits. Finally, his ApR would be set to 4 (5 including his warrior bonus) and each attack would do cold damage (i.e. elemental damage!).
The problem would be that the slayer would take increasing magic damage, culminating in a 1,500 HP blast. However, in yet another nice feature, Protection from Magical Energy would not only guard against Detonate, it would also prevent this damage, allowing indefinite transformation beyond the final burst. And although the slayer form disallowed casting the spell himself, scrolls suffered no such prohibition and Angelo's solitude provided no adjacent targets to assail when he momentarily lost control.
Angelo has enough XP for an intermediate, SCS slayer form... which allows saving your game!
Approaching the barred door was enough to break it open, prompting the githyanki to appear and grant 25,000 XP before teleporting away. Vowing to get even later, Angelo strode down the corridor with his helm of Balduran, ring of protection +2 and amulet of spell warding equipped (making his save v spells -3). It was time to kick some illithid ass!
The large illithid pack swarmed Angelo, hoping to wear him down, but they interspersed their tentacular assaults with wandering invisibly, wasting time during which their brain drains expired. Although this confused his targeting, Detect Illusion stopped them hidden for long and their propensity to flee when injured gave Angelo an easier time of thinning their ranks. He initially concentrated on killing mindflayers, since ulitharids could self-heal and umber hulks weren't dangerous. He also kept drinking potions of extra healing, because it was still easy to get overwhelmed here, and wasn't averse to retreating for a breather, shutting doors to hinder illithids' ability to teleport onto him.
After the dust had settled, Angelo ventured northwest, killing more monsters and grabbing the staff of command; heading south, he retrieved a ring of fire control from an insane dwarf warrior's body, but didn't bother investigating the other cells. Smashing the second security door to unlock the top chamber, Angelo drew the troops away to be hacked in private before tackling the master brain. A special illithid, in addition to Detonate, Ballistic Attack, Psionic Maze and Psionic Domination, it had Ego Whip (like Psionic Blast, but save v death, single target and affected by MR) and Psionic Disjunction (a renamed Remove Magic once every 2 minutes that Spell Immunity: Abjuration blocks). However, despite its -16 AC, 690 HP and 50% physical resistance, it had 0% MR and poor saving throws (an effective LoB save v spell of 11)... all it took was a single Disintegrate scroll to, well, disintegrate it!
When the master brain was attacked, it summoned 2 brain golems and would have summoned more periodically until it died. Such golems were only affected by >+2 blunt weapons and were immune to the rod of smiting, so Angelo fled. The slayer's free action slowed his boots of speed, so he returned to human form and cast Invisibility to escape. Finally, he met the slave leader in the now accessible entrance chamber for 40,000 XP before leaving the Eastern Tunnels for good.
It IS possible to complete this section without abusing slayer, but it's MUCH harder. For Angelo, this would involve scribing scrolls after drinking the potions of genius to go up levels with the XP scribing bonus and instantly acquire more HLAs. He'd also pump his health with stacked potions of heroism and dual-wield Defender of Easthaven for crushing resistance.
"Perhaps you were too elegant in your earlier playing style," Felicity remarked. "If you'd have taken some easy kills, you'd be higher level and the Eastern Tunnels wouldn't have been so tough." There was some truth in this, Angelo acknowledged, but by hook or by crook, he had escaped with his life... now to reap the rewards!
BTW @Harpagornis, was the above in conformity with the restriction set by Cyric's curse? According to it, potions can only be consumed during battle. Or is it permissible to run away, heal/buff up with potions, and return to fight after that? I'm asking not because I want to criticize your gameplay, but because I've started another Fighter/Thief (my Necromancer got unlucky with Drizzt a second time, which I took as a sign of the Gods to go back to the original plan), and I haven't decided yet which curse to lift.
I'm probably sticking to inventory access during combat, i.e. lifting Tempus's curse, even if Cyric's curse can be circumvented somewhat by initiating combat, retreating from it, and then quaffing your potions.
Even this more lenient take on Cyric's curse provides a clear advantage to casters still, as they can pre-buff with spells and are less potion-reliant. It makes me wonder whether a Fighter/Cleric would be a better pick than a Fighter/Thief?
Sorry @Grond0, about your loss, here's hoping we can both make some good progress soon, before Harpagornis takes down Belhifet with Karla.
Oh, we could change Cyrics curse to potions AND spell prebuffing but this looks realy nasty!
I considered suggesting this too. It could work perfectly well for mages. They'd just have to set up defensive sequencers and contingencies. A Druid having to cast Ironskins in battle is another matter though...
Maybe we could limit pre-buffing to long-duration buffs that last for two hours minimum? That would allow a Mage to have Spirit Armor or Stoneskin up, and a Druid Ironskins. Same with most elemental resistance spells. Not sure if the same should apply to potions. There are some that last exactly two hours, like the strength potions and the elemental resistance potions, heroism, and mind focusing. But others such as magic shielding, magic blocking, invulnerability, speed, stone form, and regeneration all have shorter durations.
If we were to make a distinction between long and short duration, I'd advocate a very strict take on the short duration buffs: character has to be in sight of enemies and combat mode has to be active (music playing / health bars visible). If you guys don't like such a distinction then I'd be ok with a more forgiving curse that allows for running away / hiding etc.
Come to think of it, a very strict interpretation of potion usage would also force mages to quaff mind focusing and genius potions in battle to reliably copy spells into their spellbooks.
I think that as long combat music plays short retreats and buffing/healing is okay but thats the talking from someone he really likes guerilla warfare.
I really like @Grond0´s point that Beastmasters should get more love so i would like to make a small change to Malar´s curse:
Malar: Except for Beast Masters only one summon spell can be active in combat
As Malar is also called the Beast Lord this makes perfect sense to me and i think that this rule should also take place for dual class Beastmaster/Cleric´s. What do you think?
I'm definitely looking forward to getting involved, but I suspect I'll leave it for a little bit. I'm already prone to restart-itis and if Angelo's adventures get too sidetracked, my momentum will stall completely. I'm not going to start posting my undocumented run until Angelo finishes, but I'll be much lighter on details second time around. Hopefully, the new challenge's rules will have been confirmed by that time and I'll be able to join in wholeheartedly.
I like the fact that these new challenges try to limit casters and non-casters equally. While it's good that the wizard slayer challenge prohibits some naughty tricks, it's basically impossible for non-casters to leave the starting blocks. I also like the customisability of the new challenges, as this allows some aspect of meaningful choices and further tactical nuance. It's amazing that we're almost saying that LoB-SCS-solo isn't hard enough already and more difficulty is required to keep it interesting.
My only concern is that (as people are discovering) it may start to become too complicated. One good thing about the wizard slayer challenge is that it's simple to understand. Even with the adventurer challenge, I had questions. Can you spend gold on upgrading items (e.g. Cespenar)? What about getting upgrades that didn't require any gold (e.g. HUman Flesh +5, Big Metal Unit)? Personally, I would deny the former, but allow the latter. Similarly, does the inability to 'use' spell scrolls in a poverty run extend only to use from quickslots or does it stop wizards from learning them as well? I'd guess neither are permitted, but you never know...
I'm guessing that A'ec Letec is a deliberate omission from the BG villain list? I'd definitely add Morentherene (how's a cleric going to tackle her?) and neothelid to the SoD boss list. If we're aiming for players not to simply skip tough encounters, perhaps we could specify that players must ally with the shadow thieves in Athkatla, collect all three noble items in the Underdark and so on? Might need some balancing to maintain meaningful player choices, but definitely something to think about.
Regarding the Adventurer Challenge i think its okay to upgrade items if you dont have to spent gold. And for the Poverty Challenge: No items means no items!
Aéc Letec is tricky cause this means every class would be forced to go through Durlags Tower cause even if one skips the demon we still have to face the Knight.
I was already wondering if any Cleric related class would be able to kill Karoug as all weapons that could harm him are not usable by them? Would Glyph stacking work? I lack experience here as i can see!
Adding Morentherene and the Neothelid are fine for me - what about the others?
I'm ok with this, although @Grond0 never plays with sound on. I assume the health bars over the sprites work the same way.
Again, something I'd be totally fine with, and I agree with the both of you that Beastmasters deserve more love. But this could be a slippery slope. The other day we redefined Mask's curse so that the PC has to draw blood and be the recipient of one attack, whether that be a physical or non-physical attack (such as a basilisk gaze) or a mix such as a ghast's paralytic attack. What does that mean for Wizard Slayers, who can't get gaze protection and who can't get free action until they burn a PfMagic scroll to acquire Spider's Bane in Cloakwood?
Mask: Except for Wizard Slayers retreats from ambushes are only possible after drawing blood from an enemy and absorbing at least one attack
Any kind of Slayer should always please Mask! Maybe @Grond0 now gets foolish enough to try one!
I agree with @Harpagornis on Aec'Letec and would argue that the Demon Lord should be sufficient. Or we could remove the Demon Lord from the list and add Aec'Letec instead.
Not sure of glyph stacking vs Karoug. Would be my first thought too (a whole lot of them because of his resistances).
If we add more foes to the list, such as Morentherene and the Neothelid, should we then lower the amount of enemies that have to be slain?
These tweaks make Wizard Slayer and Beast Master duals quite alluring. Even I'm tempted right now. A Wizard Slayer 7 -> 8 Druid, Mage or Thief might work with a lot of farming. They have a bit easier in the early game thanks to their right to run away from ambushes.
Beastmasters have the downside of not being able to complete a dual from level 7 (extra 1/2 attack) to Cleric 8 within BG1EE, but I suppose they can still tackle the Ducal Palace as lvl 7 Clerics with five skeleton warriors...
Maybe no skipping per part but the old idea of skipping a fixed number at all?
Yeah, i like the idea a lot to give Wizard Slayers and Beastmasters a little bit more freedom @Blackraven!
Selune: Resting is only allowed in inns and cleared dungeon floors. In the wilderness it only works near houses or in caves
Cyric: No prebuffing with potions or memorized spells unless they last at least two hours
This still gives Fighters the option to drink Heroism potions, while Mages still can cast short lasting buffs but they have to sacrifice a scroll. Good idea or have i missed something?
I see the discussion is still pretty active
In relation to points referred to above:
- I certainly interpreted the potions restriction as preventing any use except in battle (and yes, I did think that meant that things like boosting intelligence could only be done then - that was a potential problem for Wisp because he had to initiate a combat if he wanted to steal something). I don't personally see any real reason to relax that rule.
- I would judge combat in terms of whether the game is applying combat restrictions (like no saving or resting) - I suspect that would equate to battle music playing, though I'm not certain.
- I'm not sure about extending potions restriction to spells as that significantly impacts on complexity. It also makes it a bit of a pain if you want to do things like cast knock spells.
- OK with beastmasters being allowed more summons.
- if adding more combats from SoD, I would have thought you should also do that with other games. I'm not sure it's necessary to have a longer list though.
- Morentherene is vulnerable to fire, so even in LoB using wand of heavens is perfectly viable for her for a cleric, so long as you're protected against fear and poison.
- I don't think PfM helps WS get free action as I think the web tangle from spiders is counted as a natural attack. That's why you need a big dose of luck to get a WS past the Cloakwood in SCS (though I have done that at least a couple of times).
I think that the buff restriction to spells should not harm too much, if prebuffing is only related to combat. So that would still allow Knock spells or Thieving Potion. This should also allow healing out of combat, no?
Cyric: No combat related prebuffing with potions or memorized spells unless they last at least two hours
Still too harsh or getting too complicated? Adding more combat to our list would be okay but then we should rework the number of skips too to give the players some freedom which ones they want to face.
Morentherene is quite easy for several combos as the beast can be instakilled with a Throwing Dagger. For others its just "a bit" of work.
Another idea would be that class combos like Wizard Slayer or Beast Master are allowed to get two boons that they can choose among the gods. What about this?
Combat Music should be fine cause once its over you can rest again... even though there is a short delay.
I rolled a fine 96 creating Lilli the Berserker who should be dualed at level 7 to Druid but.. fate did not smile upon her. First she got ambushed by a Ghast when traveling south from High Hedge. Berserker Stance helped to avoid getting paralyzed but she still needed 19 Throwing Daggers to land a crit. Next travel from Bassilus area to Drizzt... five Archer Skeletons who instahitted her while she failed to land any throw. One Healing Potion was used... another one... but still no hits... while HP went down from 14 to 2.... to 0. GG!
When I first started following this thread I thought that the challenge would be too much for anybody to accomplish. Now the thread is flooded with rules to make the feat even harder. Bravo I dare say...
Hoping for many more posts.