The thing about most physical damage dealers in the original game was that, even if they had good stats in one or two areas, they paid for it elsewhere. Dorn has no drawbacks whatsoever.
*Cough*
Xzar.
I'm dead serious, Xzar is so often overlooked. Besides Sarevok, and now Dorn, Xzar is one of the most statistically impressive NPCs ever.
6/12 Bandit Camp. It would seem, of course, running the Baldur's Gate II engine makes the "selected rares" likely to show up just telling someone what to do. This is gonna be awkward as hell, I gotta say.
I've reported this as a bug, hopefully that'll get fixed between now and the 28th. It's driving me personally mad as a beta tester, and I wouldn't want it inflicted upon anyone else.
I've reported this as a bug, hopefully that'll get fixed between now and the 28th. It's driving me personally mad as a beta tester, and I wouldn't want it inflicted upon anyone else.
Oh the suffering we go through just for you guys.
Thanks! It would drive me mad too. I doubt it'll be fixed but we can all hope.
So basically evil parties are grossly overpowered - Dorn, Kagain, Shar teel, Edwin and Xzar (dualed to a cleric).
Oh whoopee, you have lower reputation ... Never heard of the friends spell?
Mungri I have two questions for you:
1. When were Evil parties NOT overpowered? 2. Ever been in real life? You know, where evil people do selfish things outside the law and end up being filthy rich and living it up, they have power... some of them are even respected out of fear. Of course, they are eventually screwed in the long run but point remains, intelligent evil folks do well for themselves in life.
Also whoever said "Dorn overshadows Ajantis" lololol Ajantis has a 17 CHA, which is way better than 16 because 17+Nymph Cloak+Helm of Glory = 20. 20 is max Charisma bonus for stores. 16 you will fall short, you'd have to feed him a tome on top of it. Much more importantly, Ajantis has a 16 Constitution.
That was me, and now it's your turn to put down the pipe! =D
Are you SERIOUSLY arguing CHA? C'mon dude. That's such an insignificant stat. Ajantis + Algie's Cloak gives you a 19 CHA. The difference between 19 and 20 is +1 reaction and +5% discount. Not at all significant.
Where it matters, Dorn beats Ajantis easily. Hands down. No contest. I can't see how you can argue otherwise, at least not with a straight face.
Ajantis might have a slight CON bonus but he gets slapped around easily by the most diseased gibberling on the Sword Coast due to his horrible 13 DEX.
And for a pure class fighter, he's got the worst STR in the game. He's dangerously close to being outdone by Montaron ... and ELDOTH.
And doing that just puts her on par with every multi class NPC. What's the point?
Hey, you don't see me doing it. I prefer to give her High Mastery in Long Swords, which makes her THAC0 absolutely badass, far, far better than anything Dorn will be able to do.
That was me, and now it's your turn to put down the pipe! =D
Are you SERIOUSLY arguing CHA? C'mon dude. That's such an insignificant stat. Ajantis + Algie's Cloak gives you a 19 CHA. The difference between 19 and 20 is +1 reaction and +5% discount. Not at all significant.
Hahaha well said, I know the CHA was a stupid comparison, but I will definitely notice it to be honest. But that's just me, I know most people wouldn't.
Where it matters, Dorn beats Ajantis easily. Hands down. No contest. I can't see how you can argue otherwise, at least not with a straight face.
Well, besides all of the other things I said after this, Ajantis is a Paladin. He's the front-liner of choice for a Good party. Dorn is the front-liner of choice for an Evil party. I don't see the issue, really. BG1 has plenty of other two characters who are comparable in such a manner.
Ajantis might have a slight CON bonus but he gets slapped around easily by the most diseased gibberling on the Sword Coast due to his horrible 13 DEX.
Truly, his Dexterity doesn't bother me. If I pick up Ajantis I'm giving him the Gauntlets. Dexterity is easily fix-able 1 NPC per playthrough, same with Strength although it takes longer, Constitution is not.
@Quartz Haha, what the hell *was* I thinking about? Good point. I almost don't see Khalid and Kagain in the same class (bad pun). Kagain is a tiny, angry pinata and mob magnet; it doesn't matter if he hits anything at all the entire game. Khalid .. ugh.
But if you think about Ajantis, he's a guy who NEEDS to be upfront, and he NEEDS stats to support that. Dorn just makes him look bad. It almost feels like good aligned parties inadvertantly got the shaft.
PS: Agree about Shar-teel. I love her with Ankheg armor, swinging the biggest swords out there. She's amazing. Too bad she sounds like an Orc in drag.
And doing that just puts her on par with every multi class NPC. What's the point?
Hey, you don't see me doing it. I prefer to give her High Mastery in Long Swords, which makes her THAC0 absolutely badass, far, far better than anything Dorn will be able to do.
That was me, and now it's your turn to put down the pipe! =D
Are you SERIOUSLY arguing CHA? C'mon dude. That's such an insignificant stat. Ajantis + Algie's Cloak gives you a 19 CHA. The difference between 19 and 20 is +1 reaction and +5% discount. Not at all significant.
Hahaha well said, I know the CHA was a stupid comparison, but I will definitely notice it to be honest. But that's just me, I know most people wouldn't.
Where it matters, Dorn beats Ajantis easily. Hands down. No contest. I can't see how you can argue otherwise, at least not with a straight face.
Well, besides all of the other things I said after this, Ajantis is a Paladin. He's the front-liner of choice for a Good party. Dorn is the front-liner of choice for an Evil party. I don't see the issue, really. BG1 has plenty of other two characters who are comparable in such a manner.
Ajantis might have a slight CON bonus but he gets slapped around easily by the most diseased gibberling on the Sword Coast due to his horrible 13 DEX.
Truly, his Dexterity doesn't bother me. If I pick up Ajantis I'm giving him the Gauntlets. Dexterity is easily fix-able 1 NPC per playthrough, same with Strength although it takes longer, Constitution is not.
And for a pure class fighter, he's got the worst STR in the game. He's dangerously close to being outdone by Montaron ... and ELDOTH.
What the hell are you talking about? AJantis has a 17 Strength!! Khalid and Kagain have 15 and 16 respectively.
There really isn't that much different mechanically from 15 and 17 strength (+1 hit/+1 damage). Plus you can't wear both the gauntlets of ogre strength (only strength boosting item in bg1 other then potions) and the gauntlets of dexterity at the same time obviously.
@Quartz Haha, what the hell *was* I thinking about? Good point. I almost don't see Khalid and Kagain in the same class (bad pun). Kagain is a tiny, angry pinata and mob magnet; it doesn't matter if he hits anything at all the entire game. Khalid .. ugh.
Khalid isn't particularly bad at anything, but doesn't really shine anywhere either, although his Constitution is pretty sweet. Yeah, I don't run him much either but I know plenty of people who enjoy him, so. Personally with Kagain I've never found Strength to be a problem. It's damn weird, I always think every game "oh man, 16 Strength really isn't good enough for my front liner," but I can still have him, and this is just an example, chug a Potion of Speed, run through Bandit Camp and absolutely shred through everyone. He barely misses. It's odd. That said, I agree with your point that he is mostly for aggroing all the mobs anyway, so yeah.
But if you think about Ajantis, he's a guy who NEEDS to be upfront, and he NEEDS stats to support that. Dorn just makes him look bad. It almost feels like good aligned parties inadvertantly got the shaft.
He has the second highest stats ... I firmly believe he has the stats to support it.
There really isn't that much different mechanically from 15 and 17 strength (+1 hit/+1 damage). Plus you can't wear both the gauntlets of ogre strength (only strength boosting item in bg1 other then potions) and the gauntlets of dexterity at the same time obviously.
I'm going to go ahead and bring out the crack pipe accusations again. Ajantis with Gauntlets of Dexterity has always served me very, very well. Oh, and never underestimate the Strength spell if you're so obsessed; seriously.
Another thing if comparing Dorm to Kagain - what I think sometimes gets overlooked with Kagain is that he doesn't just have high HP and regen, but gets +5 to most saving throws too, because of the 'shorty bonus', so can often deal with being the target of enemy spellcastes.
I was going to drop Kagain if taking Dorn, now I'm not so sure, having seen his stats, and no one tanks like Kagain. But if I keep Kagain, that means dropping someone else e.g. Monty, but I'm loathe to drop the backstabbing scumbag, he's a good scout too (and I find scouting essential).
Don't want to drop Viconia nor Edwin either, and need a decent utility thief (or do I? Locks and traps are not really Monty's forte, though), so can't really drop Imoen/Safana either and I don't want CHARNAME as a thief for my initial game (will be F/M).
Actually, forcing me to make difficult choices like this is one of the reasons I love Baldur's Gate! :-)
Agreed @Oxford_Guy, I was expecting Dorn and Kagain to be interchangeable. Was really excited today to see that they will fulfill slightly different roles.
He does, absolutely, but my point was if you stack him next to Minsc and now Dorn, he looks bad. Same with Shar-teel.
The DEX gloves can't really enter into it. They're kinda a given on any melee toon with a DEX below 16.
Exactly, they ARE a given ... So Ajantis has 17 STR/18 DEX/16 CON! Sounds sexy to me!
Also it works damn well, srsly. I love me some Ajantis. Helm yeah.
The other way of looking at it: Having Ajantis in your party AUTOMATICALLY requires the use of one of the earliest, and best, items in the game.
Those gloves are useful to nearly every NPC outside maybe Viconia. But if you've got Helm-boy in your party, too bad.
This is one of the major reasons I've shied away from Kagain and Ajantis in my last few playthroughs. They actually give you less flexibility with the rest of your party.
How about the paperdoll in the inventory screenshot? It's the BG1 version!
In my opinion BG1 paperdols was much better then ugly paperdolls in BG2. But it seems that the BG1 paperdoll is only on inventory screen, in-game there are those ugly bit***es from BG2. What a shame. They should implemented BG1 paperdolls in BG2:EE not the oposite variation.
Agreed @Oxford_Guy, I was expecting Dorn and Kagain to be interchangeable. Was really excited today to see that they will fulfill slightly different roles.
Indeed!
The way I usually play I either use two thieves or one thief and a ranger (if good), as like to be able to scout without using magic. If playing an evil mage, the available familiars can't scout either (which is an option if playing CN, for example), so dropping one thief would hurt.
< But it seems that the BG1 paperdoll is only on inventory screen, in-game there are those ugly bit***es from BG2. What a shame. They should implemented BG1 paperdolls in BG2:EE not the oposite variation.
Ideally I'd like them to implement the BG1 paperdolls *and* avatars in both versions, BUT, I think I remember reading that the BG1 avatars don't have all the necessary animations to work with dual-wielding etc., so that may be why the BG2 in-game avatars are in BG1?
I'm hoping we still might get BG1-style shields on the in-game avatars, though, at least, that would be *some* improvement. Hopefully female gnome avatars without beards too (they manage this in the paperdoll in BG2, why not the avatar?)
Given what was said about the design philosophy about Dorn being solid in combat but coming with social disadvantages, I'm curious to see how that will play out. For sure, there are plenty of opportunities for creative writing throughout the game to cause trouble.
One mild example in the BG1 NPC Project that comes to mind is Montaron picking a fight with the bitter guy in Feldepost's Inn, making a friendly solution (and 900 exp) unattainable. Imagine Dorn e.g. interrupting the Prism situation and scaring Greywolf off so you won't get to kill him for Varscona, or insulting Kelddath Ormlyr so you lose out on the 5k gold reward, etc. There are all sorts of possibilities to make a power gamer reconsider.
@Shin now you just reminded me that the 900 +650 xp exploit for that guy won't be available now in Feldpost. Totally reasonable, but that doesn't mean I did not like that extra experience.
Hehe.. Love you guys. Your debatting stats and not the graphics :P
Well the thread topic *is* "overanalyzing..." :-)
I love geeking-out about this stuff!
Exactly hahaha, I made that the title for a reason. I felt like such a dork just doing what I did in the original post, and that's not even half as bad as what we've been getting into now. xD
@Oxford_Guy So do I. Thankfully, Quartz is so often wrong about these NPCs that it gives me the opportunity to post many, many times correcting his more obvious gaffes.
Hehe.. Love you guys. Your debatting stats and not the graphics :P
Well the thread topic *is* "overanalyzing..." :-)
I love geeking-out about this stuff!
Exactly hahaha, I made that the title for a reason. I felt like such a dork just doing what I did in the original post, and that's not even half as bad as what we've been getting into now. xD
@Oxford_Guy So do I. Thankfully, Quartz is so often wrong about these NPCs that it gives me the opportunity to post many, many times correcting his more obvious gaffes.
*runs away cackling*
ROFL, wow okay I see how it is.
Next Like gives me 666 Likes. Pretty sure most people already think I'm the spawn of Satan for daring to dislike Minsc.
Dorn is obviously best suited as your two handed damage dealer, Much like Minsc, while Kagain remains the ulitmate tank. Using Shaar-Teel as a Bow/sword kind of utility fighter leaves room for all three of them for the evil party. Depending on the players own class, of course.
Comments
Xzar.
I'm dead serious, Xzar is so often overlooked. Besides Sarevok, and now Dorn, Xzar is one of the most statistically impressive NPCs ever.
Oh the suffering we go through just for you guys.
Oh whoopee, you have lower reputation ... Never heard of the friends spell?
1. When were Evil parties NOT overpowered?
2. Ever been in real life? You know, where evil people do selfish things outside the law and end up being filthy rich and living it up, they have power... some of them are even respected out of fear. Of course, they are eventually screwed in the long run but point remains, intelligent evil folks do well for themselves in life.
And doing that just puts her on par with every multi class NPC. What's the point? That was me, and now it's your turn to put down the pipe! =D
Are you SERIOUSLY arguing CHA? C'mon dude. That's such an insignificant stat. Ajantis + Algie's Cloak gives you a 19 CHA. The difference between 19 and 20 is +1 reaction and +5% discount. Not at all significant.
Where it matters, Dorn beats Ajantis easily. Hands down. No contest. I can't see how you can argue otherwise, at least not with a straight face.
Ajantis might have a slight CON bonus but he gets slapped around easily by the most diseased gibberling on the Sword Coast due to his horrible 13 DEX.
And for a pure class fighter, he's got the worst STR in the game. He's dangerously close to being outdone by Montaron ... and ELDOTH.
But if you think about Ajantis, he's a guy who NEEDS to be upfront, and he NEEDS stats to support that. Dorn just makes him look bad. It almost feels like good aligned parties inadvertantly got the shaft.
PS: Agree about Shar-teel. I love her with Ankheg armor, swinging the biggest swords out there. She's amazing. Too bad she sounds like an Orc in drag.
Personally with Kagain I've never found Strength to be a problem. It's damn weird, I always think every game "oh man, 16 Strength really isn't good enough for my front liner," but I can still have him, and this is just an example, chug a Potion of Speed, run through Bandit Camp and absolutely shred through everyone. He barely misses. It's odd. That said, I agree with your point that he is mostly for aggroing all the mobs anyway, so yeah. He has the second highest stats ... I firmly believe he has the stats to support it.
The DEX gloves can't really enter into it. They're kinda a given on any melee toon with a DEX below 16.
Also it works damn well, srsly. I love me some Ajantis. Helm yeah.
I was going to drop Kagain if taking Dorn, now I'm not so sure, having seen his stats, and no one tanks like Kagain. But if I keep Kagain, that means dropping someone else e.g. Monty, but I'm loathe to drop the backstabbing scumbag, he's a good scout too (and I find scouting essential).
Don't want to drop Viconia nor Edwin either, and need a decent utility thief (or do I? Locks and traps are not really Monty's forte, though), so can't really drop Imoen/Safana either and I don't want CHARNAME as a thief for my initial game (will be F/M).
Actually, forcing me to make difficult choices like this is one of the reasons I love Baldur's Gate! :-)
Those gloves are useful to nearly every NPC outside maybe Viconia. But if you've got Helm-boy in your party, too bad.
This is one of the major reasons I've shied away from Kagain and Ajantis in my last few playthroughs. They actually give you less flexibility with the rest of your party.
Dorn doesn't have this issue so much.
The way I usually play I either use two thieves or one thief and a ranger (if good), as like to be able to scout without using magic. If playing an evil mage, the available familiars can't scout either (which is an option if playing CN, for example), so dropping one thief would hurt.
About the screens i like what im seeing. Looking foward to play it again after so many years
I'm hoping we still might get BG1-style shields on the in-game avatars, though, at least, that would be *some* improvement. Hopefully female gnome avatars without beards too (they manage this in the paperdoll in BG2, why not the avatar?)
One mild example in the BG1 NPC Project that comes to mind is Montaron picking a fight with the bitter guy in Feldepost's Inn, making a friendly solution (and 900 exp) unattainable. Imagine Dorn e.g. interrupting the Prism situation and scaring Greywolf off so you won't get to kill him for Varscona, or insulting Kelddath Ormlyr so you lose out on the 5k gold reward, etc. There are all sorts of possibilities to make a power gamer reconsider.
I love geeking-out about this stuff!
*runs away cackling*
Next Like gives me 666 Likes. Pretty sure most people already think I'm the spawn of Satan for daring to dislike Minsc.