Why just Ascension? Why not other mods? Why not make a whole "app store" for DLC content within the game itself, and allow mod authors to submit mods? Sure, compatibility might be an issue, but if it operated on something like WeiDU underneath, uninstallation and reinstallation of mods would be a cinch. They could even implement compatibility checks - i.e. if Spell Revisions is installed, it wouldn't let you download SpellpackB6, etc. That would be spectacular.
No one is arguing against the inclusion of other mods.
People are focusing on this mod and whether it is better to:
(a) Keep the game vanilla (little support);
(b) Give people the option to install all or part of the mod through DLC or other channels that go across all devices (lots of support); or
(c) Force some version of the Ascension on everyone as part of the base game (lots of support, although no consensus on which version).
I wonder what would be the results of the poll if that were the options. I would have chosen (b).
@AHF I get that, and I'm in camp (a) because jeez, just install the darn mod!
As for "support," if you're referring to the poll, I see 34% in favor of forcing the mod on players, with no way to opt out; 29% in favor of simply allowing players to opt in to using the mod, as they please, and everyone else in favor of some middle ground (using just some components, using the plot aspects but not the tactical aspects, etc.) That is hardly a clear-cut result, and I don't think it makes sense to try to get all Orwellian trying to claim it demonstrates any kind of consensus. In fact it pretty clearly demonstrates a lack of consensus... and without a clear consensus, I think the status quo wins out. (Especially, once again, since under the status quo players can easily opt in to using the mod of they like - else we wouldn't even be having this discussion!)
The improvement from the status quo is to add the mod as DLC which is usable by tablet users (unlike the status quo mod). I fully support this idea.
My main question is whether the Overhaul/Beamdog team is allowed to do this under their contractual limitations about altering content. (My guess is "no" and that this renders the discussion moot but for academic discussions about optionality, taste, quality, and the like).
I'm getting real tired of seeing the "Add it because you can always go back to the old version". That argument functions just as well in the reverse: "Don't add it because anyone wanting to play Ascension can go install it on the old version".
No it doesn't. You have to sell the product. You have to convince people they should buy something they already own or something they can buy cheaper elsewhere. How can you expect to sell something thats basically identical to BG2? You will go all "Hey guys, buy this, is exactly the same as the game you already have but we added this mod and this mod so now you don't have to, but we didn't add this one 'cause you can add it yourself."?
Wait, are your SERIOUSLY making the argument that people are going to pay more for the game for the convenience of mod installs? All while assuming the point that no one will pay a premium price because they can already get all this stuff cheaper, but Ascencion of all things changes that?
The selling points are the enhanced UI, resolution scaling, graphics tweaks, introduction to various platforms, added content, and they were SUPPOSED to have multiplayer match making.
By your argument, we should be throwing in Saerilith, Valen, the Imoen Romance, and lord what what else because, hey, it exists, and by Bhaal I want my mods pre-installed! It doesn't matter how bad or tasteless they were, everyone should have this stuff installed because, hey, no one's going to pay for this thing unless THIER mods are installed, right?
The "keep it optional" crowd seems to believe that the current mod will somehow magically work on BG2:EE for anyone who wants it. First, there's still no solution at all, for any mods, for tablet users, and as noted before on this thread, many mods such as Unfinished Business are still not available for Baldur's Gate EE. There's no guarantee that Ascension for BG2:EE will ever happen... unless Beamdog does it. At the very least, it will be a daunting task and not something that will happen quickly. And as long as Ascension is incompatible, it'll make BG2:EE an inferior game for a large number of players, i.e. everyone who thinks Ascension is the better ending by far, which seems to be the majority of people who know and played Ascension.
Furthermore, even if Ascension as a mod does happen for BG2:EE, it will remain, as it currently is, a hidden gem that only the curious and moderately tech-savvy have access to, rather than being available to every player. Most players do not in fact install any mods nor are they even aware that they exist; I base this on the hundreds of comments I receive from players on my Let's Play channel (which is more representative of the general public than forums like this) as well as CamDawg's data.
The argument that it's somehow "selfish to force one's own mod tastes on everyone" goes both ways, as obviously any choice Beamdog makes for BG2:EE will be the hardcoded default for everyone, and as I just explained, the default is in fact the only choice for the majority of players. So the question is not whether Beamdog should "force" any choice unto players, as, well, that's what Beamdog is doing anyhow, but whether that choice should be to keep the vanilla ending or to integrate what is widely considered a large improvement.
Any content choice will be controversial, but it's not because it's controversial that it shouldn't be done. BG2:EE should be the best game it can be, and that doesn't always mean copying what the vanilla game did. It's our best and only chance to improve the base game in fundamental ways, and being overly conservative is in no one's best interest. If vanilla is what people want, vanilla is always there.
That leaves open the question of whether the best ending to Baldur's Gate 2 : ToB is the original or Ascension; but that's what's really at stake here, not whether anyone's being "selfish" or such nonsense.
ToB should largely be left as is. Let those who want it install it later when it does become available as an EE mod. There may be things that happened in it that I prefer would have happened in the original game, but it adds some nonsense too. ToB was the ending Bioware gave us, love it or not. I don't want to see Overhaul add Ascension and have it accepted as canon.
I think this was already said earlier in the thread, but since it's been resurrected: the difficulty point is largely a non-issue. I hope it's uncontroversial that the battles in Ascension are too difficult for Normal-difficulty play (they are relevantly more difficult than vanilla Melissan, who is already a very sharp difficulty jump above any other encounter on the ToB critical path). So they would have to be lightened significantly on Normal difficulty. There is then no real obstacle to restoring the original difficulty on Core and above.
(That's without prejudice to whether the story core of Ascension should be installed; I have mixed feelings here, though personally I'd never play without it.)
It's not even the damn difficulty. Our old friend CLUA takes care of that part. It's also Sarevok turning on my evil character and Imoen turning into the slayer. No. Just no.
@Bhaaldog Because that, as a veteran TOB player, is what I want. Beamdog isn't making a new game here, only "enhancing" the BG saga. If they did their own game, they could do whatever they want. The same logic applies the other way also; I don't want them saving/redeeming Yoshimo. There are also mods for that, for those that want it.
Hmm I'm not sure whether the game itself should include it, but I know for sure I will definitely only play BG2EE with this mod and improved battles on, whether it's already included or via a mod.
Wait, are your SERIOUSLY making the argument that people are going to pay more for the game for the convenience of mod installs? All while assuming the point that no one will pay a premium price because they can already get all this stuff cheaper, but Ascencion of all things changes that?
The selling points are the enhanced UI, resolution scaling, graphics tweaks, introduction to various platforms, added content, and they were SUPPOSED to have multiplayer match making.
By your argument, we should be throwing in Saerilith, Valen, the Imoen Romance, and lord what what else because, hey, it exists, and by Bhaal I want my mods pre-installed! It doesn't matter how bad or tasteless they were, everyone should have this stuff installed because, hey, no one's going to pay for this thing unless THIER mods are installed, right?
What are you doing, twisting arguments around for living?
This was the selling point of BGEE. And it wasn't enough. With BG2EE, these things will be even less visible. So if there is even a slight possibility to go around the contract limitations and add anything, they should do it. I'm not saying that Ascension is some kind of magical device that will sell the game to thousands of people but I still think it would help. And people don't want mods, they want content. From what we have seen - BGEE haven't exactly came out with much additions and adding mods is easier then creating new content.
But you said it. And yes, people are going to pay for the convenience to not to install mods. People doesn't trust mods, a lot of them think they brake games, are hard to install and what not. But if you include it in the game, even if it's still the same thing as before, then they will trust it more (and they don't have to fear that they damage their save games while installing it). The part about being able to install mods themselves was not something I came up with. Thats what you said in the first place.
And yes, by my logic they should throw in as many mods as possible (problem is, they can't), granted they will revise them a decide what is and what isn't bad. Not all of them are, and they can always change the bits they don't like.
The "keep it optional" crowd seems to believe that the current mod will somehow magically work on BG2:EE for anyone who wants it. First, there's still no solution at all, for any mods, for tablet users, and as noted before on this thread, many mods such as Unfinished Business are still not available for Baldur's Gate EE. There's no guarantee that Ascension for BG2:EE will ever happen... unless Beamdog does it. At the very least, it will be a daunting task and not something that will happen quickly. And as long as Ascension is incompatible, it'll make BG2:EE an inferior game for a large number of players, i.e. everyone who thinks Ascension is the better ending by far, which seems to be the majority of people who know and played Ascension.
Furthermore, even if Ascension as a mod does happen for BG2:EE, it will remain, as it currently is, a hidden gem that only the curious and moderately tech-savvy have access to, rather than being available to every player. Most players do not in fact install any mods nor are they even aware that they exist; I base this on the hundreds of comments I receive from players on my Let's Play channel (which is more representative of the general public than forums like this) as well as CamDawg's data.
The argument that it's somehow "selfish to force one's own mod tastes on everyone" goes both ways, as obviously any choice Beamdog makes for BG2:EE will be the hardcoded default for everyone, and as I just explained, the default is in fact the only choice for the majority of players. So the question is not whether Beamdog should "force" any choice unto players, as, well, that's what Beamdog is doing anyhow, but whether that choice should be to keep the vanilla ending or to integrate what is widely considered a large improvement.
Any content choice will be controversial, but it's not because it's controversial that it shouldn't be done. BG2:EE should be the best game it can be, and that doesn't always mean copying what the vanilla game did. It's our best and only chance to improve the base game in fundamental ways, and being overly conservative is in no one's best interest. If vanilla is what people want, vanilla is always there.
That leaves open the question of whether the best ending to Baldur's Gate 2 : ToB is the original or Ascension; but that's what's really at stake here, not whether anyone's being "selfish" or such nonsense.
All of this is a red herring. A DLC version is no more challenging for the design team than making it the baseline for the game. A DLC version is available on a widespread basis. A DLC version gives optionality that should eliminate the controvery. Vanilla isn't there if Ascension is the new baseline. The question need not be "let's choose between four mutually exclusive options and make that the only option (vanilla, content only, content with watered down fights, full Ascension)" if you just go the DLC route that Bhaaldog mentioned.
The choice between vanilla TOB and Ascension (version unspecified) is a false dilemma.
(It is likely also a moot dilemma given Beamdog/Overhaul's contractual limitations on changes to content).
All of this is a red herring. A DLC version is no more challenging for the design team than making it the baseline for the game. A DLC version is available on a widespread basis. A DLC version gives optionality that should eliminate the controvery. Vanilla isn't there if Ascension is the new baseline. The question need not be "let's choose between four mutually exclusive options and make that the only option (vanilla, content only, content with watered down fights, full Ascension)" if you just go the DLC route that Bhaaldog mentioned.
The choice between vanilla TOB and Ascension (version unspecified) is a false dilemma.
The point of this poll is to inquire which ending should be the default in the game. Regardless of which is chosen, the other could be provided through DLC, but that is another question.
AFAIK Trent mentioned that DLC does not break multiplayer, so if one player has DLC and other doesn't, they can still play together. Ascension could most likely not function this way thus it cannot be DLC. In addition, making everything optional, DLC etc. is not free. It takes extra effort to support games with different configurations and make those configurations in the first place.
All of this is a red herring. A DLC version is no more challenging for the design team than making it the baseline for the game. A DLC version is available on a widespread basis. A DLC version gives optionality that should eliminate the controvery. Vanilla isn't there if Ascension is the new baseline. The question need not be "let's choose between four mutually exclusive options and make that the only option (vanilla, content only, content with watered down fights, full Ascension)" if you just go the DLC route that Bhaaldog mentioned.
The choice between vanilla TOB and Ascension (version unspecified) is a false dilemma.
(It is likely also a moot dilemma given Beamdog/Overhaul's contractual limitations on changes to content).
Here's what I want to know: what is it about ToB's original ending that makes it more desirable than Ascension? I mean, honestly, so many of the negative responses here seem predicated on principle - "You can't force me to play with a mod!" - but I've seen very little rationale provided as to why the vanilla version is preferable on its own terms.
All of this is a red herring. A DLC version is no more challenging for the design team than making it the baseline for the game. A DLC version is available on a widespread basis. A DLC version gives optionality that should eliminate the controvery. Vanilla isn't there if Ascension is the new baseline. The question need not be "let's choose between four mutually exclusive options and make that the only option (vanilla, content only, content with watered down fights, full Ascension)" if you just go the DLC route that Bhaaldog mentioned.
The choice between vanilla TOB and Ascension (version unspecified) is a false dilemma.
(It is likely also a moot dilemma given Beamdog/Overhaul's contractual limitations on changes to content).
Here's what I want to know: what is it about ToB's original ending that makes it more desirable than Ascension? I mean, honestly, so many of the negative responses here seem predicated on principle - "You can't force me to play with a mod!" - but I've seen very little rationale provided as to why the vanilla version is preferable on its own terms.
Only 30 some percent of respondents indicate they want the Ascension battles.
I personally play with the mod but I also play with SCS and SCS II.
I am doing a first run with my son and daughter through BG:EE right now. They are young and are not gamers. I would not want to have to go through the improved Ascension battles with them as their first experience with BG2:EE. I don't have a problem with the content but prefer optionality.
Others have objected on content grounds to the inclusion of the Five at the end of the game, the added content of turning Imoen into the slayer, having Sarevok turn on you, and/or having Bodhi/Irenicus brought back.
It's not even the damn difficulty. Our old friend CLUA takes care of that part. It's also Sarevok turning on my evil character and Imoen turning into the slayer. No. Just no.
Err... if Sarevok betrayed you, it's because you forced him into a geas. If you accept his services without question, he'll remain loyal. And Imoen's transformation is temporary.
It's not even the damn difficulty. Our old friend CLUA takes care of that part. It's also Sarevok turning on my evil character and Imoen turning into the slayer. No. Just no.
Err... if Sarevok betrayed you, it's because you forced him into a geas. If you accept his services without question, he'll remain loyal. And Imoen's transformation is temporary.
Your statement is incomplete about Sarevok. He will betray you even if you don't force him into a geas if you don't do other things to make him happy.
Either way, it is among the content that some people don't like.
Your statement is incomplete about Sarevok. He will betray you even if you don't force him into a geas if you don't do other things to make him happy.
Not if you're the same alignment, which is what @Arcalian was referring to: if you're both Evil, all you need to do is agree with him when he says you should seize Bhaal's power (which is what you're intending to do anyway). If you're Good and you convert Sarevok to Chaotic Good, the same holds true.
Comments
My main question is whether the Overhaul/Beamdog team is allowed to do this under their contractual limitations about altering content. (My guess is "no" and that this renders the discussion moot but for academic discussions about optionality, taste, quality, and the like).
I agree 100% with your view on the numbers.
The selling points are the enhanced UI, resolution scaling, graphics tweaks, introduction to various platforms, added content, and they were SUPPOSED to have multiplayer match making.
By your argument, we should be throwing in Saerilith, Valen, the Imoen Romance, and lord what what else because, hey, it exists, and by Bhaal I want my mods pre-installed! It doesn't matter how bad or tasteless they were, everyone should have this stuff installed because, hey, no one's going to pay for this thing unless THIER mods are installed, right?
Furthermore, even if Ascension as a mod does happen for BG2:EE, it will remain, as it currently is, a hidden gem that only the curious and moderately tech-savvy have access to, rather than being available to every player. Most players do not in fact install any mods nor are they even aware that they exist; I base this on the hundreds of comments I receive from players on my Let's Play channel (which is more representative of the general public than forums like this) as well as CamDawg's data.
The argument that it's somehow "selfish to force one's own mod tastes on everyone" goes both ways, as obviously any choice Beamdog makes for BG2:EE will be the hardcoded default for everyone, and as I just explained, the default is in fact the only choice for the majority of players. So the question is not whether Beamdog should "force" any choice unto players, as, well, that's what Beamdog is doing anyhow, but whether that choice should be to keep the vanilla ending or to integrate what is widely considered a large improvement.
Any content choice will be controversial, but it's not because it's controversial that it shouldn't be done. BG2:EE should be the best game it can be, and that doesn't always mean copying what the vanilla game did. It's our best and only chance to improve the base game in fundamental ways, and being overly conservative is in no one's best interest. If vanilla is what people want, vanilla is always there.
That leaves open the question of whether the best ending to Baldur's Gate 2 : ToB is the original or Ascension; but that's what's really at stake here, not whether anyone's being "selfish" or such nonsense.
(That's without prejudice to whether the story core of Ascension should be installed; I have mixed feelings here, though personally I'd never play without it.)
It's not even the damn difficulty. Our old friend CLUA takes care of that part. It's also Sarevok turning on my evil character and Imoen turning into the slayer. No. Just no.
This was the selling point of BGEE. And it wasn't enough. With BG2EE, these things will be even less visible. So if there is even a slight possibility to go around the contract limitations and add anything, they should do it. I'm not saying that Ascension is some kind of magical device that will sell the game to thousands of people but I still think it would help. And people don't want mods, they want content. From what we have seen - BGEE haven't exactly came out with much additions and adding mods is easier then creating new content.
But you said it. And yes, people are going to pay for the convenience to not to install mods. People doesn't trust mods, a lot of them think they brake games, are hard to install and what not. But if you include it in the game, even if it's still the same thing as before, then they will trust it more (and they don't have to fear that they damage their save games while installing it). The part about being able to install mods themselves was not something I came up with. Thats what you said in the first place.
And yes, by my logic they should throw in as many mods as possible (problem is, they can't), granted they will revise them a decide what is and what isn't bad. Not all of them are, and they can always change the bits they don't like.
The choice between vanilla TOB and Ascension (version unspecified) is a false dilemma.
(It is likely also a moot dilemma given Beamdog/Overhaul's contractual limitations on changes to content).
I personally play with the mod but I also play with SCS and SCS II.
I am doing a first run with my son and daughter through BG:EE right now. They are young and are not gamers. I would not want to have to go through the improved Ascension battles with them as their first experience with BG2:EE. I don't have a problem with the content but prefer optionality.
Others have objected on content grounds to the inclusion of the Five at the end of the game, the added content of turning Imoen into the slayer, having Sarevok turn on you, and/or having Bodhi/Irenicus brought back.
Either way, it is among the content that some people don't like.