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Is Sarevok really Chaotic Evil?

I think he's too calm and calculating to be Chaotic.
BelgarathMTH
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  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    I think he enjoys looking at picture of cats on the internet too much to be evil.
    elminsterIecerintIllustairCrevsDaak
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    Maybe Neutral Evil as he follows his own plans and just does not care about anyone else (like Tamoko). And a bit of chaotic sprinkled on top of his NEness as he likes to cause chaos...
    elminster
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    My issue with calling him Chaotic is his reliance on complex, high quality plans. Remember, lawful evil only follows the rules if those rules are to their benefit. Chaotic characters do not make rules, and their plans are both shortsighted and extremely selfreliant.
    elminsterBelgarathMTH
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745

    You don't have to be a slathering, blood-thirsty maniac to be chaotic, you can be a case of still waters running deep.

    @Scary_wizard Wow! Poetic! Still waters, running deep... Is that you?

    I think of myself as a... vapid cloud, floating high...

    I think my first attempt needs more work...
    Illustairlolien
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    edited April 2013
    @bill_zagoudis, whether that quote is true or not, "little patience for subtlety" is the last thing I would accuse Sarevok of. His plan to cause war between nations, and to take over the government of Baldur's Gate, using doppelgangers to destabilize the entire region, reeks of subtlety to me.

    Plus, he intends to use the "law" of governments to set them against each other and cause their collapse.

    Hmmm, what would be the shades of difference between high-INT lawful evil and high-INT chaotic evil?

    I think that many of us, myself included, may be having trouble seperating out lawful evil and chaotic evil from "stupid evil", "lawful stupid", and "chaotic stupid".

    Perhaps, when high INT is brought into the picture, we need to get rid of all the "stupids", and to then contemplate what truly separates intelligent lawful evil from intelligent chaotic evil.

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StupidEvil
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChaoticStupid
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulEvil
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChaoticEvil
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeutralEvil
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupid
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StupidGood

    Hmm, on studying the tvtropes definition of Lawful Evil, I guess that maybe Sarevok is indeed chaotic evil with high INT, and I have been confusing INT with the chaotic/lawful axis. Sarevok does not in fact believe that order is an end goal, or that establishing himself as a tyrant ruler is an end goal. He is doing these things because he is damn SMART, and thus, he has decided that working through the "law" is the best "tool" that he has at his disposal to instigate "CHAOS".

    Compare and contrast Darth Vader and Palpatine. (EDIT: and also, Dr. Victor von Doom from the Marvel universe.) They want ORDER in the galaxy, (or on Earth), with themselves in charge. They believe that they are doing right, and that the balance sheet of their efforts will lead to the least suffering and death. Unfortunately for Alderaan (or Earth), they are so certain of their rightness, that in their figuring, the destruction of every life on on Alderaan (or Earth) is still counterbalanced by ensuring their CONTROL.

    Machiavelli would be the classical example of lawful evil.

    On reflection, Sarevok indeed does not fit the paradigm of lawful evil. He WANTS to cause death, destruction, and mayhem, and he takes joy in doing so.

    Interesting. Upon spending some time studying these definitions of "chaotic evil, neutral evil, and lawful evil", I think the best alignment for Sarevok would actually be "neutral evil", otherwise known as "pure evil". He is not impulsive in any way, and couldn't care less about freedom vs. tyranny. He will use lawful systems of government when it suits his goal of immortality and omnipotence, and will sew chaos just as easily. So, I think that he's a very, very intelligent neutral evil.
    Post edited by BelgarathMTH on
    lunarCaptRoryFlashburnShapiroKeatsDarkMage
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Enjoying death, carnage and killing (just watch the intro, he is having fun toying with and slaying a weak opponent), he disrupts the plans of Iron throne for his own purposes, spreads false accusations, confusion and terror nation-wide, lies to his own foster father Rieltar, betraying him and causing his death with no remorse at all, (Rieltar, as evil and corrputed he was, still reared Sarevok and brought him to a position of power, under himself ofcourse, I guess he was lawful evil-still respecting command of chain and open liasions with evil intentions?) willing to cause mass-murder and mayhem by attempting to start a war, keeping his mooks in line with his brute strength and constantly terrorising them as well (Diarmid tell so in the exit of Candlekeep catacombs) and all for what, his own personal gain of power, yup, Sarevok rings pretty much Chaotic Evil to me.
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    What I'm still struggling with is a clear distinction between "neutral evil" and "chaotic evil".
  • dstoltzfusdstoltzfus Member Posts: 280
    @belgarathmth: Neutral evil characters do not have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil character has. Neutral evil characters tend to be very pragmatic in order to advance themselves even if it means allying with people that they don't particularly like or disagree with, while chaotic evil characters are usually unpredictable, seeing everyone and everything as either obstacles to be overcome, or pawns to be manipulated. A chaotic evil character feels that the only way individuals get ahead is by causing others to fall behind. A neutral evil character realizes that sometimes, people can work together to achieve their goals.

    The neutral evil character has restraint when it benefits them. Chaotic evil characters have a hard time with this.

    At least that's what I've gathered.
    BelgarathMTHlunarDJKajuruShapiroKeatsDarkMage
  • MathmickMathmick Member Posts: 326
    Yes. That's what it says on his Character Record.
    DJKajurucyberhawk
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    edited April 2013
    @dstoltzfus, my problem with that analysis vis a vis Sarevok, is that he is clearly capable of establishing, honoring, and benefiting from, alliances with people and institutions that he will gladly destroy later, if and when it benefits him to do so.

    Take, for example, his ToB behavior. He does not rail at you in a temper tantrum for his death at your hands. He calmly, coldy, and with great calculation, tries to convince you that he has learned from his mistakes, and that you can now trust him to serve your cause if you re-rez him.

    He will then, in fact, "serve" you to the very end, and even fight against Melissan with you. The thing I don't know and have never seen is his ToB epilogue. Because, I would expect him to try to kill you at the very moment you defeat Melissan, so that he can take the Throne of Bhaal for himself, as he has always believed is his rightful place.

    (I don't care - could someone please "spoil" this discussion with knowledge of Sarevok's ToB epilogue, when carried to the end in your party?)

    None of his in-game behaviors strike me as truly "chaotic". (My freedom to do as I please, everyone else be damned.) Rather, he still seems much more "pure (neutral) evil" to me, in that he wants immmortality, omnipotence, and a divine portfolio, and will use any means necessary to get it.

    If "lawful" means following a code, either external or internal, then he's not that. If "chaotic" means "my freedom and my whims above all", then, he's not that, either.

    Neutral evil is still sounding like the best alignment description for him at this point in the discussion.

    As a useful corollary, does anyone know offhand what the alignment labels are for Irenicus, Bodhi, Melissan, and the Five?
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    What is evil? In the most basic sense, evil means benefitting himself at the cost of others. Good people are willing to work and sacrifice for other people's well-being. Evil is the exact opposite, harming others while benefiting himself. So thievery, murder, rape, etc. are considered evil.

    A neutral evil person is pure selfish, he thinks of himself first, sees others as weak and tools to be used. Eldoth is neutral evil as he cons rich ladies, plays with their feelings and takes advantage of their wealth. He won't, however, go on a killing spree, he does not wish to cause mayhem and destruction just for the sake of it. Chaotic evil is a little more blood thirsty, and prone to anger and needless violence. Xzar and Tiax are chaotic evil, Xzar can kill and dissect an innocent person just for fun. Tiax can kill someone horribly if he is mocked. Well, both are insane, but Shar-teel is chaotic evil too, she can gut a man easily if the whim strikes and she takes offence to the unsuspecting man's demeanor. She'll then spit on his corpse and walk away merrily, for 'she loves violence'

    Viconia is neutral evil. She is selfish and thinks of herself first, trusts and loves no one other than herself, snd thinks of most other people as weak, pathetic fools. She enjoys belittling others and toying with them. (she taunts Aerie and Minsc a lot) Yet she is no serial killer or homicidial maniac. She says she only tries to make her way without molestation in BG2. She can steal and take advantage of an innocent, and when offended greatly she will be unforgiving and brutal, as she talks about her dealings with a farmer family in her romance in Bg2. Yet she will not go out of her way to cause pain and suffering to others if there is no gain or point to it. She had refused to sacrifice a baby to Lloth, she had thought there was no point to it, and that had caused her fall from grace, because killing a baby was the drow norm, a chaotic evil act.
    BelgarathMTHRAM021
  • TazokTazok Member Posts: 34
    I agree on neutral evil also, I think a clear illustration of chaotic evil would be the joker who just randomly does things, including burning his own money, just cause. Sarevok has a grand design and will do anything it takes to achieve it, whether lawful or not.
    BelgarathMTH
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    I refuse to labelled... I am more than Chaotic, Lawful or Neutral. I am more than Good, Evil or... errr... Neutral.

    I am a being capable of a thousand thoughts and a thousand deeds. And so is Saveoursock.

    Why be so quick to judge?

    Should we not just live and let live?

    Or in the case of Bhaalspawn, Kill and Kill some more?

    We are all part of the circle that is life and we are all different. We need 7 billion alignments, a different one for all of us on the planet. The nine that we are given are just not enough to encompass the human experience.

    ...

    Anduin (Chaotic Good)
    lunarlolien
  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,438
    edited April 2013
    Anduin said:

    You don't have to be a slathering, blood-thirsty maniac to be chaotic, you can be a case of still waters running deep.

    @Scary_wizard Wow! Poetic! Still waters, running deep... Is that you?
    It was something that my great grandmother used to say to my mother. I suppose it could apply to me, but in more of a "keeps to themselves" way, although I did have one coworker at my last job who kept trying to see what I was all about, because of that... "You were quiet," she said. "You never talked to anyone, just worked, talked to the customers, and that was it. It creeped me out.". Then she found out how neurotic and bubble-headed I am when she pried and pried and pried. :D

    Myself, I get Neutral Good on tests, with Chaotic tendencies. A friend got Chaotic Evil, leaning towards Neutral Evil. A character that he played, of similar alignment, did things for his benefit, and only for his own. My Chaotic Evil guy was just played like the Kurgan.
    These abstractions do tend to complicate things...even my preferred Law-Neutrality-Chaos system. In many examples, most people are Neutral, with truly Lawful and truly Chaotic people being exceptionally rare. Sarevok would definitely be Chaotic under those rules...

    Here, have some fun: http://easydamus.com/alignment.html .
    dstoltzfusIllustair
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    edited April 2013

    @bill_zagoudis, whether that quote is true or not, "little patience for subtlety" is the last thing I would accuse Sarevok of. His plan to cause war between nations, and to take over the government of Baldur's Gate, using doppelgangers to destabilize the entire region, reeks of subtlety to me.

    Plus, he intends to use the "law" of governments to set them against each other and cause their collapse.

    Hmmm, what would be the shades of difference between high-INT lawful evil and high-INT chaotic evil?

    I think that many of us, myself included, may be having trouble seperating out lawful evil and chaotic evil from "stupid evil", "lawful stupid", and "chaotic stupid".

    Perhaps, when high INT is brought into the picture, we need to get rid of all the "stupids", and to then contemplate what truly separates intelligent lawful evil from intelligent chaotic evil.

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StupidEvil
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChaoticStupid
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulEvil
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChaoticEvil
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeutralEvil
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupid
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StupidGood

    Hmm, on studying the tvtropes definition of Lawful Evil, I guess that maybe Sarevok is indeed chaotic evil with high INT, and I have been confusing INT with the chaotic/lawful axis. Sarevok does not in fact believe that order is an end goal, or that establishing himself as a tyrant ruler is an end goal. He is doing these things because he is damn SMART, and thus, he has decided that working through the "law" is the best "tool" that he has at his disposal to instigate "CHAOS".

    Compare and contrast Darth Vader and Palpatine. (EDIT: and also, Dr. Victor von Doom from the Marvel universe.) They want ORDER in the galaxy, (or on Earth), with themselves in charge. They believe that they are doing right, and that the balance sheet of their efforts will lead to the least suffering and death. Unfortunately for Alderaan (or Earth), they are so certain of their rightness, that in their figuring, the destruction of every life on on Alderaan (or Earth) is still counterbalanced by ensuring their CONTROL.

    Machiavelli would be the classical example of lawful evil.

    On reflection, Sarevok indeed does not fit the paradigm of lawful evil. He WANTS to cause death, destruction, and mayhem, and he takes joy in doing so.

    Interesting. Upon spending some time studying these definitions of "chaotic evil, neutral evil, and lawful evil", I think the best alignment for Sarevok would actually be "neutral evil", otherwise known as "pure evil". He is not impulsive in any way, and couldn't care less about freedom vs. tyranny. He will use lawful systems of government when it suits his goal of immortality and omnipotence, and will sew chaos just as easily. So, I think that he's a very, very intelligent neutral evil.



    I would say that Palpatine is Chaotic Evil because he only wants power and use fallacy and deception to keep it. He has the greed for power and destruction for all who opposes him.

    On the other side Darth Vader is Lawful Evil because he agreed to pledge himself to Palpatine's power (though he more or less accepted (more ore less) reluctantly that he had to obey Palpatine to acheive his goals.
    RAM021
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    I am not well versed in the subject, but I remember that Anakin turned evil and went out to slaughter a bunch of baby-jedis. He looked angry, vengeful and well..chaotic evil. Ofcourse, after he dons his Vader suit we don't see his hatred or facial expressions so he may come as a more refined Lawful evil.

    In the comics, I think Spiderman's foe Venom is lawful evil, he is wicked, nasty, ruthless and depraved but has a code and rules he obeys, and does not want innocents to be hurt. Those that he sees as 'innocent' in his warped mind, anyway, he has personal rules and a very strict agenda of getting his revenge from Spidey. His offspring Carnage is on the othr hand, pure chaotic evil. He kills and slaughters everyone he can reach for the sheer fun of it. No rules, no explanations, no important agenda. Just carnage.
    RAM021
  • bill_zagoudisbill_zagoudis Member Posts: 207
    the dialogue i mentioned above was if you fool the npc w8ing at the exit to Candlekeep catacombs into believing that you're working for the Iron Throne

    his little patience for subtlety (ok maybe the last word was different,but the rest is as i wrote for sure) comment was to justify why he just used Koveras as a name,besides the dopplegangers were the most efficient way to seize power,if he tried to by brute force he would be stupidly evil and nothing else
    chaotic characters can scheme as well if nothing flashy would work
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    He has little patience for subtlety because he has only 10 points of wisdom.
    SCARY_WIZARD
  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219
    Reddic from pitch black movies are C.E... and he can plan a very complex plans to follow... i would say the same thing for Sarevok... for me he is a prime C.E as reddic is
  • GemHoundGemHound Member Posts: 801
    edited April 2013
    Look at the alignments like this, as I see it, the alignments are motives. The Intelligence score is how they carry plans out.

    An intelligent Chaotic Evil enemy would be like Sarevok. Cause hundreds of problems that cause multiple deaths, step in and take over, start a war, cause more death.

    An intelligent Lawful Evil enemy would use the current problems and would swiftly rise up through the ranks while gaining the support of the populace.
    EntropyXII
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