I would like to hear why you do not like the idea of saving "fake" Hexxat? I am simply advocating for an option which in my opinion should be there in the first place. As kamuzini rightly pointed out your charname simply meets a women who is promising treasures. If we forget for a moment all this meta-gaming about "fake" Hexxat being neutral evil, I do not understand why a good alignment charname wouldn't accept this quest. And a good alignment charname wouldn't let Clara die.
As many already pointed out a "cured" Clara could be any alignment, any class or any character and so forth. The possibilities are wide. Whoever opposes this idea should be able to answer this simple question: why not?
@22longZ Because the plot is already set in stone. It could be an option for modders to let you do this, like I said above, but the developers shouldn't change a thing about it. They've already made their decision.
There was never an option to save Yoshimo, Khalid, Xzar, Safana, Coran, or Tiax outside of mods and that's exactly where the option to save Clara/Fakexxat should lie as well.
"set in stone"? Well, an ingame-store indicates at least to me that there will be content beyond what is "set in stone". And even if the developers decide to just "fix" it, without any dlc, a digital distributed game can have additional content by any time. Or was the implementation of Baeloth a bad idea because he wasn't there in the first place?
Ah well.it may sounds shallow of me but i prefer Clara simply because she looks better in my opinion.i don't like the Portrait for the real Hexxat at all. Anyone can tell me in short how i may swap the two portraits between the two? and if it works for already existing savefiles?
Also the whole Cape thing is annoying.
About having a an actual quest where you could save Clara.i would support it. Thought i would not like it she were suddenly a good character. i mean Hexxat said she could controll People that "were like her" and all the other spirits in the Tomb were (probatly graverobbing)thiefs too. I would say Clara would be chaotic Neutral at best.Personally,if she really were to get her own questline, i would say that she starts as neutral evil but could be slowly turned to neutral/good overtime if the player pushes her in this direction in Dialogs (or not if the player want to keep her evil.).
@22longZ Because the plot is already set in stone. It could be an option for modders to let you do this, like I said above, but the developers shouldn't change a thing about it. They've already made their decision.
There was never an option to save Yoshimo, Khalid, Xzar, Safana, Coran, or Tiax outside of mods and that's exactly where the option to save Clara/Fakexxat should lie as well.
Old content can't be changed in reason of contract limits with ATARI, however Hexxat is new content and can be freely changed or improved. People that are here in this forum for more than one year know how badly people tried to get the devs to change a lot of the old content until the shared the info about contract limits with us.
@22longZ Because the plot is already set in stone. It could be an option for modders to let you do this, like I said above, but the developers shouldn't change a thing about it. They've already made their decision.
Couldn't the same argument be made for everything? With that line of thought, all of the enhanced edition wouldn't exist. New journal? The developers shouldn't change a thing about it. They've already made their decision. Stack more arrows? The developers shouldn't change a thing about it. They've already made their decision. New kits? The developers shouldn't change a thing about it. They've already made their decision. An update to change the already existing shadowdancer kit? You get the point...
There was never an option to save Yoshimo, Khalid, Xzar, Safana, Coran, or Tiax outside of mods and that's exactly where the option to save Clara/Fakexxat should lie as well.
You can't save Yoshimo because he is evil and planning a plot against you. It is because of his choices that he can't be saved... not yours. Even so, you can still recruit him in ToB if you want to. You can't save Khalid because he is dead when you find him. You can't save Xzar because you don't get the chance to. As soon as he casts the spell, he is killed. A trojan horse of sorts. You can't save Safana because, like Yoshimo, she volunteered to give you up for your bounty and pays the price for it when she is double crossed. Again, her choices, not yours. You can save Coran. It is difficult, but you can do it with improved invisibility and some other buffs. Tiax doesn't die. He is just trapped in Spellhold. And he isn't stuck there because we refuse to do anything. If I remember correctly, he has gone even further off of the deep end than he was before and tries to mark you or something but screws up his spell. So again... his choices, not yours.
And besides all of that, there are contractual obligations that prevent Beamdog from changing already existing content. Clara is new... so why not ADD something to allow a new NPC?
I agree that Clara's alignment should either stay neutral evil or become chaotic neutral, if you save her from Hexxats influence. Chaotic neutral seems to fit better to Clara's backstory Hexxat mentions though. She just sounded like a lost girl that fell pray to supernatural influence. Maybe there could be some lingering effects from that influence so that she turn chaotic neutral through her own questline during which she slowly reverts to her "normal" self, albeit a bit damaged by the traumatic experience. She should probably stay pure thief though, I don't see a reason for her to have a special kit. I wouldn't mind her not-so-awesome stats either. Makes for better RP.
I also have to agree that Clara's portrait looks way better than Hexxat's and I also prefer the voice.
I would like to hear why you do not like the idea of saving "fake" Hexxat? I am simply advocating for an option which in my opinion should be there in the first place. As kamuzini rightly pointed out your charname simply meets a women who is promising treasures. If we forget for a moment all this meta-gaming about "fake" Hexxat being neutral evil, I do not understand why a good alignment charname wouldn't accept this quest. And a good alignment charname wouldn't let Clara die.
As many already pointed out a "cured" Clara could be any alignment, any class or any character and so forth. The possibilities are wide. Whoever opposes this idea should be able to answer this simple question: why not?
Just to play devil's advocate here - just because you're a good aligned character doesn't mean that the game should give you the option to stop everything bad from ever happening. Some things (like the twist in this quest) happen before you have a chance to react. The game doesn't let you interfere with the cowled wizards' fight with Irenicus in Waukeen's promenade, but you don't hear people upset about the lack of choice - it's a scripted narrative element.
I personally would be interested in an option to save Clara and have her become a full-fledged npc, but not because the quest as it currently stands is somehow unfair or unprecedented. There are *many* instances in this game where you don't get to further the narrative exactly how you want.
As for those suggesting that devs would be "caving to demands" if they turned Clara into a DLC option, I don't think that's the case. They might just be seeing an opportunity that they didn't expect
The whole "set in stone" argument kinda reminds me of Bioware's gigantic failure in not considering the Indoctrination Theory for Mass Effect 3's ending. Damn, that was terrible. I think beamdog could score major points with the fans here.
A fair point Purudaya! Just because I don't want her death to happen it doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. If it serves a narrative purpose her Clara's death can be justified. So maybe it is just a practical problem that her death seems be avoidable while it is in fact inevitable. If this would be the case I would like see that been refelected in the game. Because from my point of view it seemed like my charname was just watching while he could have interfered.
But this would still not mean that her death SHOULD happen and because I don't actually see the strong narrative of killing a companion in the way it is currently implemented, I would still like to save her. Widening the options of roleplaying by giving the option to save her seems to me a way better idea than letting her die just to make Hexxat look "more evil". But this is just personal preference which you may share or not.
I would LOVE to be able to save Clara. Saving Hexxat was totally against my game playing character. I was like oh no I have to just ignore she killed someone who was in my group! Also try and befriend her?
I am wondering about where L is though. We left the tombs together and went to the Copper Coronet. I guess at some point she will bring it up again.
I would LOVE to be able to save Clara. Saving Hexxat was totally against my game playing character. I was like oh no I have to just ignore she killed someone who was in my group! Also try and befriend her?
I am wondering about where L is though. We left the tombs together and went to the Copper Coronet. I guess at some point she will bring it up again.
you don't *have* to ignore it. you can bring it up there and then!
The main issue with Hexxat (false and true) is that when you first meet Hexxat (false) in Copper Coronet, the game doesn't let it clear that she's evil or evil controled or that the mission is something evil. The choises are a bit imbecile from my perspective, it's either "yes i want to get tesaures" or "no i don't want to be near you".
A lost girl with a brainwashed memory? Well my good parties would happly jump in the opportunity of help that damsel in distress!! She's not a gravedigger, she state that for some unknow reason she NEED to enter the crypt, there's NO motivation for a good party to reject false Hexxat plea for help.
Now then: After we enter the crypt and meet the true Hexxat, the party automatic behave like an evil party. When a vampire get out of the coffin, the first thing to do was be on guard. After Clara's death, either we accept true hexxat in the party or we leave the place with nothing, a total lost of time the quest.
I'm enjoyin a bit the true Hexxat, a bit only cos in my opinion, Valen is a LOT better than Hexxat as an joinable NPC. If the devs were going to make an Vampire NPC, i really don't know why they didn't asked Weimer's approval to use his valen mod and adapted it, that would work wonders.
My only complain against Hexxat, is that she's too quiet, rarely speaking or interacting, even inside bodhi's enclave (i joined bodhi) and that's insane. A vampire out of bodhi's dominance inside bodhi's enclave ... and not a single phrase?!?!
My point is I liked the "fake" Hexxat simply more and I wasn't able to chose.
So basically, you would like an option to save the confused girl and have her join up instead of Hexxat and become a full fledged party member.
Just out of curiosity, how do other players feel about this?
I personally would rather play Fexxat (Clara). Would be nice if you could "save" her and she was neutral or good. That way you give the option for a "good" group to do good. Good groups aren't going to just say, what the hey, why not, so what if she's undead, let's see where this goes!
@aVENGER: I'd vote for being able to rescue Clara from Hexxat as well. Not that I don't like Hexxat as she is, but for good parties having the opportunity to "rescue" Clara, even if that ends the story there, would be kinda cool as well.
My point is I liked the "fake" Hexxat simply more and I wasn't able to chose.
So basically, you would like an option to save the confused girl and have her join up instead of Hexxat and become a full fledged party member.
Just out of curiosity, how do other players feel about this?
I agree with 22longZ, i would love to be able to save the old Hexxat (Clara?) and team up with her instead, she feels like she has some interesting potential as a character to her.
To me the whole evil chulat[voodo vibe] female vampire is just so overused that I much prefer a clumsy single minded evil thief confused girl who by being neutral evil cares not who she uses to complete her goals and after her goals are done can be bribed into staying with you throughout the game. Clara doesn't need to be good. She can honestly stay how she is and still be align with her alignment xD An option would of been nice but the more annoying thing that they did was they got us all hyped up for clara the thief not hexxat the cliche evil female vampire who likes women -.-
I just signed in, I was to let it pass but I thought I'd share my experience...
I concur with everyone that says that an option to save the fake Hexxat should be added, at least an option to be able to interfere when the true Hexxat attacks her should be added for good oriented parties, IMO.
In my case, when the true Hexxat revealed I couldn't stand the choice to let her murder a party member, I just had to kill her... That's the only reasonable option for a Good-Neutral aligned char that had agreed to help Clara.
So, I don't see how it could be argued that the current quest is OK... for Good/Neutral parties it basically means you get *nothing* out of it. No NPC, no treasure, *nada*.
I feel that those who argue in favor of let things this way are simply prejudging, maybe based in their own preference of playing evil parties.
For those who to prefer playing good-neutral parties and want also to stay in character there's no satisfactory option ATM, and IMHO that should be fixed.
First, I have absolutely no problem with the quest or the character. I in fact am very interested by Hexxat and look forward to using her in my evil game. I have no problem with the twist, and I certainly have no problem with good parties having to kill Hexxat (which I did) and leaving with "nothing", because that's a load of tripe: good parties stopped a powerful and dangerous vampire from escaping into the world with a cloak that lets her walk in daylight, and avenged the murder of a fallen comrade. If that's not sufficient reward for you, you're not playing Good, you're playing Loot.
With all that said, I'd also like an opportunity to save Clara, simply because it'd be an interesting role-playing point, and I'd like to get to know the real person that was there. I'd be willing to chip in a few bucks for a DLC to make Clara a full-fledged character, or failing that, it'd be nice to patch in the opportunity to save her as an NPC (possibly involving a quest to get some holy item after bringing her, on the brink of death, to the nearest temple?). Not a necessity, but it'd be enjoyable.
@Ayiekie: Sounds more like a job for the modding community than the devs, though; all this talk of wanting to save a character whose storyline explicitly concludes with their death sounds exactly like the mod projects that resurrect Yoshimo after Spellhold.
In a new game, I'd honestly expect you could do that too. Also save Xzar, redeem Faldorn - all the other things that are narratively unsatisfying (you can't even kill the Harper who murders Xzar unless you can take her out in about three rounds!) ways to dispose of characters. Yoshimo's a bit different since his story's purely within BG2, of course.
I'm posting this to clarify what I meant. I get your point, and totally understand your reasoning, and sympathize with it too.
When I say 'nothing' in my post, I meant it to be from a player perspective, as in: the 'player' that bought the game.
Personally, I don't care about the loot at all. What really ticked me off, again as a 'player', was the lose of a good thief, which was properly handling that area of expertise within my party, and which left me with the necessity to find another one to fill the void.
I don't like Yoshimo, I don't like Jan, and Nalia is more a mage than a thief, so that means I need to install a custom made NPC to continue this game, or cheat edit Nalia to be multi-class instead dual class, as I did in my previous BG2 playthrough.
Again, I meant this in this way: Good oriented aligned "players" (I don't normally play evil chars) pay for this game and obtain one less NPC than players that play evil characters.
Is a totally pragmatic argument, not a critic to the story telling or the quest twist, which I liked.
@Leeux: Except that even if you never went into Dragomir's Tomb, Clara's character sheet clearly states that she's Neutral Evil. So you should have known the moment you recruited her that Hexxat (whoever she turned out to be) wouldn't fit a good party; why did you even bother going?
I'd just like to say that I too was disappointed with Hexxat. I preferred the character of Clara and thought perhaps her stuttering would clear up during her questline.
I fully understand why people like the new Hexxat, It's a cool plot twist and I'm sure her quests will be interesting.
I think it would be great if the devs could give us an opportunity to save Clara.
Well, I do think it'd be cool to make Clara a full NPC (not least of which to help out the pure thief problem), I'd just be okay with it being a DLC. If not, ehh, people loved BG2 for many years despite the lack of a good thief and that evil charnames couldn't even get a full party.
I don't know anything about this character, is she really a half-dragon half vampire biker lesbian who'll turn you into a vampire? Someone c/d my lols e: and also black and a literal jungleperson
@Leeux: Except that even if you never went into Dragomir's Tomb, Clara's character sheet clearly states that she's Neutral Evil. So you should have known the moment you recruited her that Hexxat (whoever she turned out to be) wouldn't fit a good party; why did you even bother going?
Yeah, that's true... I can see your point. But, and we're moving into the RP aspect here and more to a subjective point of view, if you're playing a good sort you're kind of compelled to help her out... don't you? I mean, when you first met and the other NPC (I don't recall his name) introduces her to you, the story kind of forces you to take pity on her... and at that point you don't even had a chance to look at her stats.
And I don't normally have problems in joining with some evil aligned NPCs, in fact I actually enjoy Viconia and Edwin in my parties. I don't think that alignment is what matters, is just the fact that in order to keep this particular NPC you have to accept the murder of one of your companions, in front of your face... and without fighting back... is a big leap, IMO. Again, subjective point of view and all that. I totally respect other's opinions on this, though.
Well, I do think it'd be cool to make Clara a full NPC (not least of which to help out the pure thief problem), I'd just be okay with it being a DLC. If not, ehh, people loved BG2 for many years despite the lack of a good thief and that evil charnames couldn't even get a full party.
I agree, I'd totally accept the DLC route... I'm OK with it. But that will be for the next playthrough though. I already accepted Clara's dead and will take the opportunity to try some other fan made NPCs for this game.
Comments
As many already pointed out a "cured" Clara could be any alignment, any class or any character and so forth. The possibilities are wide. Whoever opposes this idea should be able to answer this simple question: why not?
Because the plot is already set in stone. It could be an option for modders to let you do this, like I said above, but the developers shouldn't change a thing about it. They've already made their decision.
There was never an option to save Yoshimo, Khalid, Xzar, Safana, Coran, or Tiax outside of mods and that's exactly where the option to save Clara/Fakexxat should lie as well.
Anyone can tell me in short how i may swap the two portraits between the two? and if it works for already existing savefiles?
Also the whole Cape thing is annoying.
About having a an actual quest where you could save Clara.i would support it.
Thought i would not like it she were suddenly a good character. i mean Hexxat said she could controll People that "were like her" and all the other spirits in the Tomb were (probatly graverobbing)thiefs too.
I would say Clara would be chaotic Neutral at best.Personally,if she really were to get her own questline, i would say that she starts as neutral evil but could be slowly turned to neutral/good overtime if the player pushes her in this direction in Dialogs (or not if the player want to keep her evil.).
You can't save Khalid because he is dead when you find him.
You can't save Xzar because you don't get the chance to. As soon as he casts the spell, he is killed. A trojan horse of sorts.
You can't save Safana because, like Yoshimo, she volunteered to give you up for your bounty and pays the price for it when she is double crossed. Again, her choices, not yours.
You can save Coran. It is difficult, but you can do it with improved invisibility and some other buffs.
Tiax doesn't die. He is just trapped in Spellhold. And he isn't stuck there because we refuse to do anything. If I remember correctly, he has gone even further off of the deep end than he was before and tries to mark you or something but screws up his spell. So again... his choices, not yours.
And besides all of that, there are contractual obligations that prevent Beamdog from changing already existing content. Clara is new... so why not ADD something to allow a new NPC?
I also have to agree that Clara's portrait looks way better than Hexxat's and I also prefer the voice.
I personally would be interested in an option to save Clara and have her become a full-fledged npc, but not because the quest as it currently stands is somehow unfair or unprecedented. There are *many* instances in this game where you don't get to further the narrative exactly how you want.
As for those suggesting that devs would be "caving to demands" if they turned Clara into a DLC option, I don't think that's the case. They might just be seeing an opportunity that they didn't expect
But this would still not mean that her death SHOULD happen and because I don't actually see the strong narrative of killing a companion in the way it is currently implemented, I would still like to save her. Widening the options of roleplaying by giving the option to save her seems to me a way better idea than letting her die just to make Hexxat look "more evil". But this is just personal preference which you may share or not.
I am wondering about where L is though. We left the tombs together and went to the Copper Coronet. I guess at some point she will bring it up again.
A lost girl with a brainwashed memory? Well my good parties would happly jump in the opportunity of help that damsel in distress!! She's not a gravedigger, she state that for some unknow reason she NEED to enter the crypt, there's NO motivation for a good party to reject false Hexxat plea for help.
Now then: After we enter the crypt and meet the true Hexxat, the party automatic behave like an evil party. When a vampire get out of the coffin, the first thing to do was be on guard. After Clara's death, either we accept true hexxat in the party or we leave the place with nothing, a total lost of time the quest.
I'm enjoyin a bit the true Hexxat, a bit only cos in my opinion, Valen is a LOT better than Hexxat as an joinable NPC. If the devs were going to make an Vampire NPC, i really don't know why they didn't asked Weimer's approval to use his valen mod and adapted it, that would work wonders.
My only complain against Hexxat, is that she's too quiet, rarely speaking or interacting, even inside bodhi's enclave (i joined bodhi) and that's insane. A vampire out of bodhi's dominance inside bodhi's enclave ... and not a single phrase?!?!
I concur with everyone that says that an option to save the fake Hexxat should be added, at least an option to be able to interfere when the true Hexxat attacks her should be added for good oriented parties, IMO.
In my case, when the true Hexxat revealed I couldn't stand the choice to let her murder a party member, I just had to kill her... That's the only reasonable option for a Good-Neutral aligned char that had agreed to help Clara.
So, I don't see how it could be argued that the current quest is OK... for Good/Neutral parties it basically means you get *nothing* out of it. No NPC, no treasure, *nada*.
I feel that those who argue in favor of let things this way are simply prejudging, maybe based in their own preference of playing evil parties.
For those who to prefer playing good-neutral parties and want also to stay in character there's no satisfactory option ATM, and IMHO that should be fixed.
Best wishes to all,
Leandro
With all that said, I'd also like an opportunity to save Clara, simply because it'd be an interesting role-playing point, and I'd like to get to know the real person that was there. I'd be willing to chip in a few bucks for a DLC to make Clara a full-fledged character, or failing that, it'd be nice to patch in the opportunity to save her as an NPC (possibly involving a quest to get some holy item after bringing her, on the brink of death, to the nearest temple?). Not a necessity, but it'd be enjoyable.
I'm posting this to clarify what I meant. I get your point, and totally understand your reasoning, and sympathize with it too.
When I say 'nothing' in my post, I meant it to be from a player perspective, as in: the 'player' that bought the game.
Personally, I don't care about the loot at all. What really ticked me off, again as a 'player', was the lose of a good thief, which was properly handling that area of expertise within my party, and which left me with the necessity to find another one to fill the void.
I don't like Yoshimo, I don't like Jan, and Nalia is more a mage than a thief, so that means I need to install a custom made NPC to continue this game, or cheat edit Nalia to be multi-class instead dual class, as I did in my previous BG2 playthrough.
Again, I meant this in this way: Good oriented aligned "players" (I don't normally play evil chars) pay for this game and obtain one less NPC than players that play evil characters.
Is a totally pragmatic argument, not a critic to the story telling or the quest twist, which I liked.
Hope I clarified my point a bit better.
EDIT: typos
I fully understand why people like the new Hexxat, It's a cool plot twist and I'm sure her quests will be interesting.
I think it would be great if the devs could give us an opportunity to save Clara.
e: and also black and a literal jungleperson
And I don't normally have problems in joining with some evil aligned NPCs, in fact I actually enjoy Viconia and Edwin in my parties. I don't think that alignment is what matters, is just the fact that in order to keep this particular NPC you have to accept the murder of one of your companions, in front of your face... and without fighting back... is a big leap, IMO. Again, subjective point of view and all that. I totally respect other's opinions on this, though.
@Ayiekie, I agree, I'd totally accept the DLC route... I'm OK with it. But that will be for the next playthrough though. I already accepted Clara's dead and will take the opportunity to try some other fan made NPCs for this game.
EDIT: typos again!