Choice is allways good. Saving Clara and having a quest to restore her to her mental powers? Yes. I can see the shining knight and can hear the horn of Gondor. This I would like.
The thing is, I'm pretty sure Clara was only a thief because H was controlling her. So if you remove that control you may have a pretty common person, not capable of being an adventurer.
I like the idea of saving Clara. I enjoyed her quest to free Hexxat, but I was left dumbfounded when I couldn't save her. RP wise, I had to slaughter Hexxat as well, so I won't get to enjoy her until I start my second play through.
However, I don't think everyone should be able to save her. There should be a variable that allows the party to act quickly to prevent her death, and if the party is unable to do it, Clara's demise is set. IMO, turn undead (either PC or NPC) should be able to save her.
I am not a fan however of turning Clara good or neutral. She is evil, brainwashed evil, but still evil, maybe even worse than Hexxat. That'd troll people.
Its not unheard of though that you can turn the alignment of an NPC over the course of the game. I imagine this would be even easier with a confused girl who were under the influence of a vampire that is dead-dead now.
Despite all the arguments against it, I still think a Clara NPC for the full game would be the greatest DLC idea ever. I'd buy it for sure and most likely love it.
Its not unheard of though that you can turn the alignment of an NPC over the course of the game. I imagine this would be even easier with a confused girl who were under the influence of a vampire that is dead-dead now.
Especially since that vampire tried to kill her just before you stepped in and stopped it. That could easily be the beginning of Clara seeing things in a new light.
Its not unheard of though that you can turn the alignment of an NPC over the course of the game. I imagine this would be even easier with a confused girl who were under the influence of a vampire that is dead-dead now.
Especially since that vampire tried to kill her just before you stepped in and stopped it. That could easily be the beginning of Clara seeing things in a new light.
Completely agree. It didn't sound like Clara was ready to die anyways since she begged Hexxat not to kill her. Something like "I've done as you commanded - please let me live!". Could be a major turning point for the character.
What I find interesting is that at no point did anyone actually get to know Clara. Clara is a mind-controlled automaton at this point, and any personality attributed to her isn't actually hers -- apart from the very end, arguably. That was Clara's voice, her portrait, and her skills, and little else.
Ah, but we do know some things about her. We know she was an actress, that she was far from home, that she was down on her luck and forced into a bad situation (several of them, in fact), and that (in the game as it stands) she was cruelly killed for it.
We know that in the face of death, she wanted to live.
That, plus her voice and portrait, is enough for me to want to have the chance to save her and get to know the real Clara.
(That being said, I'm so very glad that even if they don't ever expand the options for Clara, Beamdog included dialogue choices to make it clear my PC really did care if she lived or died, and didn't consider her a meaningless, nameless extra. And that my PC could take revenge for her.)
What I find interesting is that at no point did anyone actually get to know Clara. Clara is a mind-controlled automaton at this point, and any personality attributed to her isn't actually hers -- apart from the very end, arguably. That was Clara's voice, her portrait, and her skills, and little else.
For one, I wasn't sure how strong Hexxat's influence on Clara actually was. I mean, sure, it obviously gave her a very strong drive and purpose, but after what Hexxat says about Clara before she started to influence her, she appeared lost in the first place, which would probably have made it easier to manipulate her.
Also, that nobody got to know anything about her true character makes this even more interesting, imo. And it gives a potential developer of a Clara NPC DLC or a modder willing to take on this endeavour a LOT of freedom. Her story could include "L." somehow or go a completely different direction.
Ah, but we do know some things about her. We know she was an actress, that she was far from home, that she was down on her luck and forced into a bad situation (several of them, in fact), and that (in the game as it stands) she was cruelly killed for it.
True enough, but that's about the same amount of knowledge we have for most tertiary characters in the game - what makes Clara special that she should be saved over, say, Kryll? Maybe I'd rather recruit the sexy necromancer than help Dorn kill her?
@LiamEsler is right: there's a lot of projection going into how people perceive Clara precisely because she's basically a robot; and if Beamdog went ahead and rewrote the story so you could save her, odds are those same people wouldn't be happy with how she was written because they imagined something different.
Valen was/is about 10x more powerful, and her character leaves you with the feeling that you're traveling with a wild animal that could tear out your throat at any moment. Weimer did an amazing job with her. Hexxat, while not a bad companion, just doesn't have that same 'feel' to her - she's bland, monotonous, predictable, terribly tryhard, and, quite frankly, boring.
I must say I was *VERY* disappointed when I realized I couldn't save Clara. I tend to roll with good parties most of the time, and as luck would have it, I went with an evil one for this playthrough, so an evil vampire ought to fit right in... but still, we should've been given a choice. I'd settle for Clara even if she had no quests.
That being said, it would be amazing if the devs could expand Clara a bit. I'm not saying they need to sink an inordinate amount of time in developing her, as they've done that with Hexxat already, but just let us make the choice, and gives us Clara if we want her.
Most of us have followed the developments on the forum for weeks, if not months, and I'm sure a lot of us have grown attached to Clara (just take a look at how many pages the old Hexxat info thread had/has). Devs, if you're reading, give us a choice! Let us choose between Clara/Hexxat at the pivotal moment in the tomb, even if it means opting for a barebones, quest-less Clara!
I don't know, I just think there's something incredibly appealing about sheltering a unique character like Clara. I was expecting to help her with her quest, free her from whatever curse/spell she was suffering from (that much was obvious from the get-go), and be rewarded with a soft-spoken, emotionally conflicted character who, while maybe technically 'evil', was only like that due to the immense trauma she'd suffered.
Instead, I'm forced to adopt a heartless, de-fanged, crippled version of Valen.
If I wanted Valen, I'd install the real thing. So, thanks, but no thanks.
Well, maybe for this one, single, evil-party run, but that's about it.
Apart from that, I doubt I'll be picking up Hexxat ever again.
While I don't fully agree that Hexxat is nothing more than a "poor man's Valen" (I think she is quite interesting in her own right), I agree that at least having a barebone Clara would be the better choice. Still a bit of a shame not to use all the possibilities there, but better than nothing. But a Samara/Morinth situation would be perfect (well, without the whole "do her = die" thingy).
True enough, but that's about the same amount of knowledge we have for most tertiary characters in the game - what makes Clara special that she should be saved over, say, Kryll? Maybe I'd rather recruit the sexy necromancer than help Dorn kill her?
Your logic flaw here is in assuming that I wouldn't also welcome that kind of expansion on most minor characters. I would; I love finding out more about underdogs and tertiary characters.
Though there is one difference - Clara isn't evil... or rather, to be more precise, in terms of her death and the last few days of her life she's an innocent victim. Kryll isn't. Also, it's possible to save Kryll (you could, for instance, just kill Dorn, and even charm Kryll if you want to talk to her); you can't really save Clara, she's doomed at the point she comes into the story (as it's highly unlikely Hexxat just goes "Eh, it was worth a try - you can go" if Clara can't find a sufficiently potent adventuring party).
No matter what you do, there's no hope for Clara. But fighting against the impossible is what heroes do, damn it.
@LiamEsler is right: there's a lot of projection going into how people perceive Clara precisely because she's basically a robot; and if Beamdog went ahead and rewrote the story so you could save her, odds are those same people wouldn't be happy with how she was written because they imagined something different.
Oh, let's be honest - the projection is because she's a cute girl.
But don't get me wrong, I love the Hexxat story and twist, I'd just love to have the chance to give a happier ending to Clara's story, too. It's not a flaw in the story for me, just the desire for an additional, new story.
And Beamdog should be happy in any case - there's a huge amount of fan passion for both Hexxat and Clara, as a casual glance through all the threads on the first page of this forum indicate. A lot of games would be happy to get the sort of intense fan interest for a character that either of these two ladies have received.
What I find interesting is that at no point did anyone actually get to know Clara. Clara is a mind-controlled automaton at this point, and any personality attributed to her isn't actually hers -- apart from the very end, arguably. That was Clara's voice, her portrait, and her skills, and little else.
I know you devs didn't made Clara to become an full NPC or even to players aknowledge her too much @LiamEsler, but sometimes, what comes spontaneous is better than the planned content.
People gave voice to an opinion here, in the begin i thougth @22longZ would be slaughtered with flames for the harsh words he aboarded the subject, but apparently it reflected the thought of so many people that the thread developed an loud voice of the customers.
It's a funny surprise, what i can't say for sure is if this reaction comes from a disappointment with true Hexxat presentation and initial dialogues or from a vision of true potential in Clara that can become anything, she's like an fresh mod waiting to be finished, and in this forum something like that would naturally reflect in the expectatives and hopes of the community.
Clara is the flag of the step before a new content, you devs could change the initial aboard to make clear that her quest is an evil one, but as i said, sometimes the unexpected surprise get better than the planned, so maybe... just maybe, an content for an Clara NPC surviving that encounter could become the most bright work made in this Enhanced Edition.
Interesting, this could be a Morinth/Samara type of dynamic. I rather like it. Except, of course, Hexxat isn't nearly as despicable a person as Morinth. Hexxat kills to live. Morinth kills to get off.
Yeah, and Hexxat is a real, fully-fledged character that was intended to be a default playchoice, while Morinth... isn't.
(I'm very tempted to work on a playable Clara mod/questline now, although my ideas for the character might be considered more gut-punching than what happened in the game!)
@Ayiekie: Sounds more like a job for the modding community than the devs, though; all this talk of wanting to save a character whose storyline explicitly concludes with their death sounds exactly like the mod projects that resurrect Yoshimo after Spellhold.
The time of monolithic, untouchable, tone-deaf game studios is over. We have two-way communication with the devs; we tell them what we'd like, and they do their best to deliver (within reason). And honestly, both their work and our enjoyment of it reach a higher level than if they'd just locked themselves in a room without talking to us for 12 months.
Even large studios like Obsidian are talking to their buyers/backers while Eternity is being developed. People love giving input, and ignoring your customers is never a wise decision. Just read through all the replies - most people here would gladly shell out a few bucks for a Clara DLC. Hell, I'd be willing to as well, and I friggin *HATE* DLCs (thanks, EA)!
My point is, this unprecedented amount of dialogue we have with the devs is a wonderful thing. You're still stuck in the old publisher-developer-consumer trifecta mode of thinking, where anything and everything the publisher decided was set in stone. Those days are gone.
In this day and age, we can do better. Hell, we *should* do better! There's demand here, and the devs would be wise to capitalize on it - expand Clara, turn her into a mini-DLC, and make some nice change along the way. With today's mod tools, and the ungodly amount of practice the devs have racked up while working on BG2EE, I'm sure they could churn out the whole thing in a single weekend.
I feel like a lot of negativity is floating around in this thread with all of the posts telling the devs that having an option would be better... etc.
Although, I agree that having an option would be amazing, I would like to take this moment to reflect upon the work that has already been put forward. I think they did an incredible job enhancing BOTH BG1 and BG2 and the work that was done to include Hexxat as a party member is incredible. It is a hell of a great twist that I don't think anybody saw coming.
And the talk that this has generated is also quite incredible. This game is ridiculously old, but the excitement generated from all of this is phenomenal.
I actually was really pleased with the reveal. Up until that point, I was severely disappointed with Hexxat. I thought to myself "This is the new NPC? Really? Damn, that's really underwhelming." Then it happens and everything turns around "Oh, so THIS is Hexxat. Okay, that's cool." Clara just, well, lacked a personality of any sort. She was quite literally a mind-controlled robot of a person. She was effectively already dead.
It is not at all my intention to be negative toward the real Hexxat in any way, but rather to voice my opinion that Clara provides a very intriguing opportunity for a DLC character while also adding RP potential and satisfying the loyal customers.
We spend a *whole lot* of time on the forums, listening, engaging, and generally getting feedback. Every single post is read and considered, usually by multiple developers. Of course not every idea or piece of feedback is going to make its way into the game, but @TvrtkoSvrdlar is absolutely right: game developers these days have unprecedented communication with fans. And that is awesome.
It's always difficult around any release -- there are always unanticipated bugs (and sometimes anticipated ones, too), and that sucks for everyone -- but through it all, we listen to *everything*. Everything gets considered, one way or another.
We really appreciate every post and bug-report, particularly those with clear instructions on how to reproduce issues, and any feedback (positive or negative!) on content.
I feel like a lot of negativity is floating around in this thread with all of the posts telling the devs that having an option would be better... etc.
Nah, not negativity, just a bunch of passionate opinions!
Read the posts - most people agree that Hexxat is an okay addition. Some even really like her. But then there's a bunch of us who would've loved to be able to make a choice. Given said choice would have elevated the entire quest to a new level.
Think about it - there's no treasure in there; the 'loot' is the NPC herself (whether Clara or Hexx)! The devs could've milked this for all its worth, with both Hexx and Clara trying to persuade the party to their side! I don't care how old/powerful Hexx is, she'd get murdered by a 5-man gang. Clara as well, that goes without saying.
Personally, I think it would've made for an epic scene, not all that dissimilar to the ME2 one where you have to choose between Samara/Morinth. Only here, the two girls would try to persuade you through dialogue. I mean, come on, something like this can be implemented with little to no effort - it's just a bunch of text!
When Hexx revealed her hand, I was expecting Clara (who should've snapped out of her spell by now) to start petitioning me to save her while Hexx started threatning her and trying to get my PC and his party on her side. It would've been epic!
Instead, I had to watch as Clara gets murdered, and there wasn't a damn thing I could do about it. Killing Hexx is pointless, since it doesn't bring back Clara. If Hexx had some kind of unique item she drops, then it might've been worth it, but since she doesn't, it isn't.
tl;dr: an unsatisfying resolution to an otherwise well-crafted story arc full of dramatic tension
Well. if the devs wanted to make a Clara-dlc they'd have an easier start no? The portrait is ready, no need to look for a voice actor, the character is itroduced into the game.
Ironically enough, the things you praise about Valen have been the source of many, many complaints over the years - which just goes to show how much subjective opinion goes into evaluating NPCs.
Hexxat and Valen couldn't be more different, both in terms of storyline and in terms of how they play. Whether one is better than the other depends on what you're looking for - personally, I find Valen more comparable to Solaufein in that she's both ridiculously overpowered and she actually reduces the player's agency by making certain plot-based choices for you (ie: the bit with the dragon eggs). An interesting experiment, perhaps, but not a candidate for a serious playthrough.
Also: the comparison to Samara/Morinth is superficial at best, since the player has much more access to Samara before her loyalty mission - you fight alongside her, you talk to her, you listen to her stories about her kids and her life as a justicar. When Morinth makes her offer, she's the unknown quantity, since literally the only things you know about her are what Samara told you (and if you stick with Samara, she later reveals that Morinth was lying/wrong about everything anyway).
With Clara... I mean, I'm really trying to understand what it is about her that has everyone here so enthralled. @Ayiekie mentions wanting to know more about tertiary characters, and that's fine - but there's a big difference between saying "I'd like to know more about Kryll" and "I'd like Kryll to be a party member because choices."
@TvrtkoSvrdlar: I completely agree with you that bilateral communication between devs and players is on the rise, and that it's how things should be done; that doesn't mean every idea offered by the players is automatically a good one. Insofar as this concept is concerned - choosing Clara over Hexxat - I just don't think it's worth pursuing.
Comments
However, I don't think everyone should be able to save her. There should be a variable that allows the party to act quickly to prevent her death, and if the party is unable to do it, Clara's demise is set. IMO, turn undead (either PC or NPC) should be able to save her.
I am not a fan however of turning Clara good or neutral. She is evil, brainwashed evil, but still evil, maybe even worse than Hexxat. That'd troll people.
Despite all the arguments against it, I still think a Clara NPC for the full game would be the greatest DLC idea ever. I'd buy it for sure and most likely love it.
Completely agree. It didn't sound like Clara was ready to die anyways since she begged Hexxat not to kill her. Something like "I've done as you commanded - please let me live!". Could be a major turning point for the character.
We know that in the face of death, she wanted to live.
That, plus her voice and portrait, is enough for me to want to have the chance to save her and get to know the real Clara.
(That being said, I'm so very glad that even if they don't ever expand the options for Clara, Beamdog included dialogue choices to make it clear my PC really did care if she lived or died, and didn't consider her a meaningless, nameless extra. And that my PC could take revenge for her.)
Also, that nobody got to know anything about her true character makes this even more interesting, imo. And it gives a potential developer of a Clara NPC DLC or a modder willing to take on this endeavour a LOT of freedom. Her story could include "L." somehow or go a completely different direction.
@LiamEsler is right: there's a lot of projection going into how people perceive Clara precisely because she's basically a robot; and if Beamdog went ahead and rewrote the story so you could save her, odds are those same people wouldn't be happy with how she was written because they imagined something different.
Valen was/is about 10x more powerful, and her character leaves you with the feeling that you're traveling with a wild animal that could tear out your throat at any moment. Weimer did an amazing job with her. Hexxat, while not a bad companion, just doesn't have that same 'feel' to her - she's bland, monotonous, predictable, terribly tryhard, and, quite frankly, boring.
I must say I was *VERY* disappointed when I realized I couldn't save Clara. I tend to roll with good parties most of the time, and as luck would have it, I went with an evil one for this playthrough, so an evil vampire ought to fit right in... but still, we should've been given a choice. I'd settle for Clara even if she had no quests.
That being said, it would be amazing if the devs could expand Clara a bit. I'm not saying they need to sink an inordinate amount of time in developing her, as they've done that with Hexxat already, but just let us make the choice, and gives us Clara if we want her.
Most of us have followed the developments on the forum for weeks, if not months, and I'm sure a lot of us have grown attached to Clara (just take a look at how many pages the old Hexxat info thread had/has). Devs, if you're reading, give us a choice! Let us choose between Clara/Hexxat at the pivotal moment in the tomb, even if it means opting for a barebones, quest-less Clara!
I don't know, I just think there's something incredibly appealing about sheltering a unique character like Clara. I was expecting to help her with her quest, free her from whatever curse/spell she was suffering from (that much was obvious from the get-go), and be rewarded with a soft-spoken, emotionally conflicted character who, while maybe technically 'evil', was only like that due to the immense trauma she'd suffered.
Instead, I'm forced to adopt a heartless, de-fanged, crippled version of Valen.
If I wanted Valen, I'd install the real thing. So, thanks, but no thanks.
Well, maybe for this one, single, evil-party run, but that's about it.
Apart from that, I doubt I'll be picking up Hexxat ever again.
Devs, be nice and gives us a choice, alright?
Something like Samara/Morinth from ME2.
Though there is one difference - Clara isn't evil... or rather, to be more precise, in terms of her death and the last few days of her life she's an innocent victim. Kryll isn't. Also, it's possible to save Kryll (you could, for instance, just kill Dorn, and even charm Kryll if you want to talk to her); you can't really save Clara, she's doomed at the point she comes into the story (as it's highly unlikely Hexxat just goes "Eh, it was worth a try - you can go" if Clara can't find a sufficiently potent adventuring party).
No matter what you do, there's no hope for Clara. But fighting against the impossible is what heroes do, damn it. Oh, let's be honest - the projection is because she's a cute girl.
But don't get me wrong, I love the Hexxat story and twist, I'd just love to have the chance to give a happier ending to Clara's story, too. It's not a flaw in the story for me, just the desire for an additional, new story.
And Beamdog should be happy in any case - there's a huge amount of fan passion for both Hexxat and Clara, as a casual glance through all the threads on the first page of this forum indicate. A lot of games would be happy to get the sort of intense fan interest for a character that either of these two ladies have received.
People gave voice to an opinion here, in the begin i thougth @22longZ would be slaughtered with flames for the harsh words he aboarded the subject, but apparently it reflected the thought of so many people that the thread developed an loud voice of the customers.
It's a funny surprise, what i can't say for sure is if this reaction comes from a disappointment with true Hexxat presentation and initial dialogues or from a vision of true potential in Clara that can become anything, she's like an fresh mod waiting to be finished, and in this forum something like that would naturally reflect in the expectatives and hopes of the community.
Clara is the flag of the step before a new content, you devs could change the initial aboard to make clear that her quest is an evil one, but as i said, sometimes the unexpected surprise get better than the planned, so maybe... just maybe, an content for an Clara NPC surviving that encounter could become the most bright work made in this Enhanced Edition.
This at least, is what i think
(I'm very tempted to work on a playable Clara mod/questline now, although my ideas for the character might be considered more gut-punching than what happened in the game!)
Even large studios like Obsidian are talking to their buyers/backers while Eternity is being developed. People love giving input, and ignoring your customers is never a wise decision. Just read through all the replies - most people here would gladly shell out a few bucks for a Clara DLC. Hell, I'd be willing to as well, and I friggin *HATE* DLCs (thanks, EA)!
My point is, this unprecedented amount of dialogue we have with the devs is a wonderful thing. You're still stuck in the old publisher-developer-consumer trifecta mode of thinking, where anything and everything the publisher decided was set in stone. Those days are gone.
In this day and age, we can do better. Hell, we *should* do better! There's demand here, and the devs would be wise to capitalize on it - expand Clara, turn her into a mini-DLC, and make some nice change along the way. With today's mod tools, and the ungodly amount of practice the devs have racked up while working on BG2EE, I'm sure they could churn out the whole thing in a single weekend.
They get paid, and we get another NPC.
What's not to like?
Although, I agree that having an option would be amazing, I would like to take this moment to reflect upon the work that has already been put forward. I think they did an incredible job enhancing BOTH BG1 and BG2 and the work that was done to include Hexxat as a party member is incredible. It is a hell of a great twist that I don't think anybody saw coming.
And the talk that this has generated is also quite incredible. This game is ridiculously old, but the excitement generated from all of this is phenomenal.
Then it happens and everything turns around "Oh, so THIS is Hexxat. Okay, that's cool."
Clara just, well, lacked a personality of any sort. She was quite literally a mind-controlled robot of a person. She was effectively already dead.
It's always difficult around any release -- there are always unanticipated bugs (and sometimes anticipated ones, too), and that sucks for everyone -- but through it all, we listen to *everything*. Everything gets considered, one way or another.
We really appreciate every post and bug-report, particularly those with clear instructions on how to reproduce issues, and any feedback (positive or negative!) on content.
Read the posts - most people agree that Hexxat is an okay addition. Some even really like her. But then there's a bunch of us who would've loved to be able to make a choice. Given said choice would have elevated the entire quest to a new level.
Think about it - there's no treasure in there; the 'loot' is the NPC herself (whether Clara or Hexx)! The devs could've milked this for all its worth, with both Hexx and Clara trying to persuade the party to their side! I don't care how old/powerful Hexx is, she'd get murdered by a 5-man gang. Clara as well, that goes without saying.
Personally, I think it would've made for an epic scene, not all that dissimilar to the ME2 one where you have to choose between Samara/Morinth. Only here, the two girls would try to persuade you through dialogue. I mean, come on, something like this can be implemented with little to no effort - it's just a bunch of text!
When Hexx revealed her hand, I was expecting Clara (who should've snapped out of her spell by now) to start petitioning me to save her while Hexx started threatning her and trying to get my PC and his party on her side. It would've been epic!
Instead, I had to watch as Clara gets murdered, and there wasn't a damn thing I could do about it. Killing Hexx is pointless, since it doesn't bring back Clara. If Hexx had some kind of unique item she drops, then it might've been worth it, but since she doesn't, it isn't.
tl;dr: an unsatisfying resolution to an otherwise well-crafted story arc full of dramatic tension
Tis' a very interesting idea.
Hexxat and Valen couldn't be more different, both in terms of storyline and in terms of how they play. Whether one is better than the other depends on what you're looking for - personally, I find Valen more comparable to Solaufein in that she's both ridiculously overpowered and she actually reduces the player's agency by making certain plot-based choices for you (ie: the bit with the dragon eggs). An interesting experiment, perhaps, but not a candidate for a serious playthrough.
With Clara... I mean, I'm really trying to understand what it is about her that has everyone here so enthralled. @Ayiekie mentions wanting to know more about tertiary characters, and that's fine - but there's a big difference between saying "I'd like to know more about Kryll" and "I'd like Kryll to be a party member because choices."
@TvrtkoSvrdlar: I completely agree with you that bilateral communication between devs and players is on the rise, and that it's how things should be done; that doesn't mean every idea offered by the players is automatically a good one. Insofar as this concept is concerned - choosing Clara over Hexxat - I just don't think it's worth pursuing.