why can't I play properly with a group
mumumomo
Member Posts: 635
I just failed another no reload attempt with a "group" (minsc+sorc charname).
i died miserably in the main tent in the bandit camp.
It's a shame because i had some good fun so far.
But in the end i always end up dying in the hardest fights, unless i use the usual solo no reload tactics (=getting immune to everything), which kind of defeats the point of playing with several characters.
Is there any good tip you can share to make a successful group no reload run? or do I have to accept that groups are unsuitable for no-reload gameplay.
Thanks in advance
i died miserably in the main tent in the bandit camp.
It's a shame because i had some good fun so far.
But in the end i always end up dying in the hardest fights, unless i use the usual solo no reload tactics (=getting immune to everything), which kind of defeats the point of playing with several characters.
Is there any good tip you can share to make a successful group no reload run? or do I have to accept that groups are unsuitable for no-reload gameplay.
Thanks in advance
2
Comments
One of the things I learned in Sil's playthrough is that a properly prepared party can bounce back from almost any setback, no matter how catastrophic or ridiculous. This might not apply so much for BG1, since I'm very unfamiliar with it, but I think a good strategy for tackling group no-reload runs is to make redundant characters and to develop escape options in case things go wrong. The idea is that your party members should be able to fill in for each other if one of them should falter during combat. The party may be weaker because of all the redundancies, but it is also more resilient, because the loss of a party member does not ruin the functioning of the group as a whole.
But this wouldn't apply so well for a Minsc+sorcerer group, since neither can fill in for the other, and Minsc has no ability to rescue your sorcerer if something goes wrong, since Minsc has no spells. And I'm not sure how many escape options you can actually get in BG1, where invisibility and dispelling options are relatively expensive. @Blackraven probably has more ideas for BG1.
Still, other strategies that I've (seen) used successfully include the following:
- Doing the difficult parts with one character (keeping the others out of sight or invisible) as if you were soloing. You'd probably want to use a character with a class you have affinity with. I'm a Thief man, so in parties I've often used my buffed Thieves - be they Charname or NPCs - to tackle Tazok's Tent (opening with a backstab to insta-kill Venkt), Cloudwulfe & co at the Iron Throne, and even Sarevok and his cronies.
- Using a rearguard Charname (mage, bard, druid or ranged fighter or thief), and have a couple of NPCs do the dirty work. If you play a wizard or bard you might want to include another such caster, because arcane casters sometimes draw aggro, at least in SCS, when you don't want that to happen to Charname.
I personally have difficulty with this strategy because I don't like using NPCs as puppets and seeing one die feels to me like defeat. After a few NPC deaths I start to view the no-reload run as a failure, and I either start playing recklessly or I simply abandon the run.
You could also reconsider carefully your party composition. In the case of your Sorcerer duo run it could be argued that Kagain with his Dwarven saves, a pair of Gauntlets of Dex, high HPs and weapon (high)mastery (to compensate for his lower STR) would have made a better frontliner than Minsc.
Be generous with consumables, and allow recharges if you want to. Tazok's Tent becomes a lot easier for your Sorc if s/he uses two charges of the Wand of Monster Summoning.
The conclusion cannot be that no-reload doesn't lend itself to party play. If you look at the Bioware forums, the majority of the no-reload trilogy successes have been accomplished with parties.
Thinking about it, I might try a new run with Ocker my Dwarven Skald and field general. It's as challenging for me as it seems to be for you.
Semiticgod posed a very logical philosophy for a party and you can read his results with that strategy on here... which speak for themselves.
With only 2 characters you have the worst of both worlds. halving XP and items/equipment AND still not enough versatility to handle situations that don't go precisely as planned.
Personally I don't like watching NPCs turn grey, but every temple will raise dead for you and the ONLY thing that will end a no-reload run is Charname's death, so you certainly only have to really "worry" about one character surviving any given fight. Furthermore, there's plenty of NPCs in each game so if one gets chunked it's sad, but you can generally fill their slot easily enough if you need a particular skillset.
Let me ask you this, where was Dynaheir when all this was happening?
i guess i get the point : i need at least a party of 4 to cover all bases and to charname immune to everything.
2.) Get gauntlets of dexterity
3.) Pick up Kagain
4.) Throw Kagain at problem
5.) Profit
After playing IWD on various difficulty levels, I've found it extremely difficult to believe that Insane is really the easier difficulty level. I initially thought this was true after having tried Insane, but after returning to lower difficulties, I realized that the extra XP was simply not worth it. Having one or two extra levels is helpful, but the great danger of IWD by far, throughout the game, is raw enemy damage. Insane mode more than doubles the challenge, but does not double the party's power.
A no-reload game can be done with any number of characters, whatever their classes or kits. A duo run can actually be very efficient, because both your characters will still be relatively far ahead in XP for most of the game until somewhere in ToB.
I agree with @hispls that some versatility would make things easier, but again: it's not required. It's perfectly doable to complete the game without 'covering all bases' (by which I suppose you mean fighting, thieving, arcane magic and divine magic), or with only one base covered, as you well know as a fervent solo player.
And even if you do want everything covered, you can suffice with two or three characters.
For BG1 a Charname Fighter/Thief, Viconia and Edwin cover all bases, and so do a Charname Fighter/Mage and Tiax. Or if you want to go good-aligned: Branwen/Yeslick and a Thief/Mage cover all bases.
In BG2 the same Fighter/Thief charname could team up with Aerie (who greatly benefits from being part of a small party), and the Thief/Mage with Jaheira. The Fighter/Mage might want to work with two more characters, such as Anomen or Viconia for divine magic and Nalia, Jan or Imoen for some thieving and more arcane magic. These are all powerful combos, that should breeze through the game.
Maybe you should start with a versatile duo or trio run. The contrast with solo wouldn't be as big as the contrast between solo and a full party.
So you do want to make sure your CHARNAME is protected against anything that can end your run. It depends on who you fight what you'll buff up with, but never give the enemy a chance to land anything deadly on you.
The issue in BGEE is that avoidance (invis, sanctuary, HIS) remains the easiest way to get immune to threats and this a lot harder with a group.
In BG2EE it's probably less of an issue with spell casters having all kind of protective spells
You also have the options to just stay way back with your CHARNAME and let Kagain and your team sort out the enemies while you're at a safe distance. To be able to target you the enemy need to be in range, from experience you'll figure out the range and then when an enemy is moving towards your character, you'll know to move further back.
A very clever idea you can use is have an arcane caster next to you with an invisibility spell memorized or on scroll, and if your CHARNAME get stunned, feared or targeted, you can take the NPC and use his invisibility spell on your CHARNAME and the enemy won't be able to attack you.
No-reload with a group is very easy compared to solo.
solo is much easier, at least for me.
you have more experience and more importantly you have all limited charges item for you.
more items for key fights + easy avoidance for the others makes bgee a very easy experience to solo no reload.
The extra experience makes you reach hla levels very early in soa. From there the game is a walk in the park.
Anyway i guess it's probably linked to personal experience and i have been playing solo no reload for a very long time.
The experience might seem like a big thing, but when you start getting levels we're talking about level 7 or 10, and the difference isn't that big. Once you reach level 20+ it's almost none existing.
It might have something to do with personal experience. I've done solo no-reloads and with party for a very long time now, and i don't remember the last time I've failed a no-reload with a party. It's so simple when you can send in Kagain + Khalid or Korgan + Keldorn and they can pretty much solo the game on their own.
I guess that is the thing that makes it so easy with a party for me. You can throw powerful NPC's at the enemy and if they end up dying, you can resurrect them and send them to fight the next opponent.
Kagain can solo BG1
Korgan can solo BG2
Throw in other NPC's and it'll just get easier and easier.
Anyway, this is my opinion and we'll have to agree to disagree
Maybe the safest way to play a party would be to start out solo or with a small party in order to advance fast in XP, and then gradually increase party size (in late BG1 and in ToB).
I avoided jaheira/imoen and khalid for RP reasons.
Therefore my first NPC was Minsc. Minsc rage is actually very good for some fights against lone casters (mulahey, bassilus, sirens, ...)
Dynaheir died in the gnoll map due to poor AI and bad luck (rushing bare hand to one xvart and getting 1-shotted)
Xan died in the ambush in mulahey's lair.
(these 2 were quite handy since I would have dismissed them anyway)
Minsc had a very close call against greywolf and went running away with morale failure while i had to kite greywolf to death with CHARNAME (using an oil of speed)
Then Ajantis joined in to clear the ankheg nest and died doing so.
In Cloakwood, they hired Coran who has been with them since then. He is a real beast with a bow.
In the mines, they hired Yeslick. I thought would be my group until the end of the game. But I let Yeslick die by being careless in some fight in BG.
This 3-man team (sorc, minsc, coran) is very effective:
they now all have permanent free action (2 rings + spiders bane), which makes wonder with web (like blackraven said, they are like permanent spiders on steroids for my sorc)
Also, using a wand of fire + arrows of detonation, they can clear any room almost instantly.
Feels quite good now, playing as a group (even if it is very sloooooooow)
Thanks for the help to all of you.
I went to Durlag tower with Coran/Minsc and my sorc.
The first floor was easy enough and I know it rather well.
On the second floor, Coran died in the stair room (ambush by 3 skellied with stinking cloud).
From then, I tried to get back but the door was closed so i had to push forward, with no theif to deal with the traps. I was not too much worried since i gave minsc 100% resist to lightning and 50% to fire with potions and items.
Yet he died on a trap casting 4 fireballs in a row. The sorc nearly died too but i managed to push it out of the way.
I still had hopes for my sorc to survive but not i did not know level 3 well enough.
A multiple arrows trap nearly killed him despite having stoneskin on.
Later on he was poisonned by the air creature (wyvern type) and died in seconds before I could use an antidote.
The worst part is that many (all?) of the traps in the tower aren't just one shot deals but will trigger any time you touch them until they are disarmed. This is why Gandalf brought a burglar along to reclaim the ancient Dwarven city.
Furthermore, you don't even have a priest to summon undead meat-shields.
Also IMO if your sorcerer is in melee range of anything you're doing it very wrong. He should be in the far back row and/or invisible unless needed.
I still maintain the whole point of a party is diversity and redundancy (and fun banter into BG2).
Of course if you believe you can solo the tower with your sorcerer just leave your friends at the front door and give it a whirl. I'd be very interested to see how to do that dungeon with no thief.