Memory Loss: Intelligence VS Wisdom
mashedtaters
Member Posts: 2,266
Looking for input on how a character's attributes should be measured if you plan on role-playing someone with severe short-term or long-term memory loss. Does low wisdom or low intelligence better measure this kind of quality?
Baldur's Gate says that Intelligence measures memory. But what if a person is very knowledgeable, but can't remember what they ate for breakfast?
On the other hand, someone could be very perceptive, but be unable to remember facts and dates that were just told to them in order to save their life.
How would you roll up a character with very poor memory?
Low wisdom or low intelligence?
Baldur's Gate says that Intelligence measures memory. But what if a person is very knowledgeable, but can't remember what they ate for breakfast?
On the other hand, someone could be very perceptive, but be unable to remember facts and dates that were just told to them in order to save their life.
How would you roll up a character with very poor memory?
Low wisdom or low intelligence?
- Memory Loss: Intelligence VS Wisdom45 votes
- Low wisdom33.33%
- Low intelligence46.67%
- Other (explain)20.00%
2
Comments
You may also need to dock some CHA points for being a troublesome person to deal with, and even more troublesome person to follow.
Wisdom, in contrast, represents your ability to make decision based on those memories. But your judgment is based on "sleeping memory" (i.e. subconscious, subliminal, and unconscious knowledge) rather than active memory. So even if you don't remember an event, your sleeping mind remembers it well enough to inform your decision-making.
That's how I'd handle it, anyway.
I voted WIS but I don't really have a good reason for it other than it feels more "right" in my head. INT for me is a characters ability to reason and interpret data etc whereas WIS is sorta like an aaccumulated knowledge over time (hence the lore bonus, if you read about some magical item in a dusty tome years ago, you'd remember it). Then again, high INT means you can memorize more spells which ofc sounds like a good way to show if your character has a good or bad memory.
I don't know really, I prolly shouldn't have voted on this.
Overall, I would say it depends on its severity. If it's mild to medium ranged temporal loss of memories, then it calls for a clear hit to Intelligence. The same would be the case for permanent loss of memories, but with additional Wisdom penalty.
An *severe* loss of memories however would be pretty much equal to a persistent vegetative state. In other words the consciousness itself would be in shambles. Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma would be almost nonexisting in such a state of mind.
I'd say the first thing is a function of intelligence, and the second thing is a function of wisdom. Something like Alzheimer's disease attacks all of those functions. Mere absent-mindedness is probably a characteristic of a person with high INT and low WIS. A slow learner with little talent for academics who nevertheless has a lot of common sense and an insightful view of life would be an example of someone with low INT and high WIS.
But it's more complicated than that. Trying to apply D&D stats to real life personality analysis is very problematic, because real life is several orders of magnitude more complicated than D&D.
EDIT: Thinking about it, remembering faces and names might actually be a function of charisma, so there's an element of memory in charisma as well. I consider myself to have decent INT and WIS but a problem with CHA, and one of my characteristics in real life is that I have lot of trouble remembering faces, names, and facts about the lives of people I meet. ("Wait, what was your name again? And the name of that kid of yours? You said she was a third grader, right? Oh, she's in college already? You told me that five minutes ago, sorry.")
It was one of the funniest and funnest games I have ever played. I don't think that there is anything quite like getting accidentally blown up by a fireball that smells like roses and makes a tinkling sound in place of an explosion. I lost two characters to that freaking wizard.
Since then, I have always associated memory loss with low wisdom. But I guess it depends on how you choose to interpret the attributes you roll.
I was just curious about how everyone here would correlate poor memory with which mental attributes. I really liked how my brother used his crappy dice roll to make a fun game.
Names, dates and times = INT
Misplaced items, wrong times and dates (suppose to meet on Tuesday, not Monday) = Wisdom
Being scatterbrained, or simply not paying attention to remember = CHR
dementia (mental illness) - both lower int and wis, but can be restored if the illness can be cured
forgetfulness? - neither (it's more like a personality quirk)
low learning ability (can't memorize things)? - lower intelligence
In retrospect, I think I may have made a mistake when writing up this thread, and I apologize. I think I came accross as wondering which stat is reflective of memory, but as you have all politely and professionally indicated, that is impossible to determine because that would be a blanket statement that just doesn't make sense, and I agree with all of you.
What I meant for this thread to be about is, were you to decide to role play a character with poor memory in a P&P game, or even BG, how would you choose reflect that poor memory in your stats, if at all? Would you find it more enjoyable to forget statistics and dates, names and faces, or whole concepts, and which stat would you decrease as a reflection? Stats are merely a roleplaying tool, anyways, not a box that you have to fit in.
An example I gave in one of my posts in this thread was my brother playing a naive, scatterbrained, and extremely forgetful Mage who knew a lot of facts but had no basic practical knowledge. He had low wis and high int. It was a lot of fun.
This was in no way meant to be a thread about amnesia, or Alzheimer's disease, or any other sensitive topics that some people may find saddening. I sincerely apologize if this thread has offended anyone for that reason.
Long-term memory loss would probably be more low-wisdom. Your reasoning is good in the present, but you don't have the experience to draw from to use that reasoning wisely.
But of course that's an over-simplification. There are ways in which each impairment should affect both stats, and ways in which each impairment should impact neither. If this were a PnP game, I wouldn't try to model it on stat changes alone. I'd have a talk with my GM, and see how they felt we should handle it.
Can't say how it would apply in OP's case specifically, though, because there is a whole book full of various types of amnesia, and we're also dealing with a fantasy world where magic and monsters can screw up brains and memories in whole new ways...
We all know that after that Minsc stats dropped to 8 INT, 6 WIS and 9 CHA.
I believe that when you're getting hit in the head you start losing memory. This is why, it turns out, losing memory should indeed lead to losing INT, WIS and CHA.
I do like the triple-hit though. Makes sense that INT/WIS is a combination score in this case, and that CHA suffers as a consequence. You could make similar arguments for DEX, by the way, at least in some cases. Loss of coordination is a common observation in certain cases of brain/memory damage (though by no means universal).
Naturally, given that D&D is a world of magic etc. it's entirely possible that a case of "memory loss" presents very differently. It could involve actual injury to the brain (like Minsc's blow to the head), but it's totally conceivable that it could simply be a "memory wipe" of some magical nature that leaves everything else entirely intact; in that case, it could also be as selective as you like. That means that the reflection in stat changes would be equally selective, and could affect any stat to any degree, depending on what exactly happened.
I like the idea that you present about bad memory being caused by magical conditions. It presents some interesting possibilities for role-playing ideas.
In real life, there are several forms of 'memory'. Experiential and skill memories are separately stored in the brain, for example. There have been cases of people forgetting who they are, yet retaining all skills, including skills learned during the period of memory loss. They still remember how to read, speak, or play baseball even though they have no memory of it.
Wisdom, at least as far as I understand it, is really really really really really really dependent on past experiential memories, insofar as it is an attitude and decision making process that is really heavily informed by the collected lessons and experiences of your whole life.
Wisdom better represents memory loss, I think.
I have known people who would forget what they were doing after 1 or 2 hours. He always had to call his wife to remind him what to do. For instance he would ride a car to go buy something, get off and then suddenly forgot why he was here.
I don't think this mental disorder should affect wisdom or intelligence, because those type of people would learn a spell and then forget why they learnt it, but they will not forget the spell.
I think in this case, charisma is the most concerned.
Now if a person learn something then forget it, obviously intelligence...(in dnd universe)
You are right. I made a mistake when originally I first wrote this thread. I had wanted to start a discussion about what kind of character stats would you choose to roll up if you wanted to play a character with poor memory. Would you prefer to play an absent-minded character who is very knowledgeable (thus reflecting low wisdom)? Would you prefer a street smart character who forgets facts and times and appointments (thus reflecting poor intelligence)? Or would you come up with something completely different?
It was originally supposed to be more of a make your own memory loss character roleplaying idea, but I didn't write it up correctly for that. It turned into more of a discussion on what stats reflect poor memory, which is fine. No big deal, it has still been an interesting discussion. I am the one at fault for not being more clear when I started the thread.
I had not intended to start a discussion of which stat is more connected to memory, because, just like you said, and everyone here has pointed out, there are different types of memory. I was more looiking for this: How would you choose to play a character with poor memory (and what kind of poor memory) and then how would you reflect that poor memory in his/her stats? Intelligence/wisdom/other?
Hopefully that answers your question well enough. I'm not at all disappointed in he direction that this thread has gone. I'm just disappointed in myself for miscommunicating, which has caused some unnecessary confusion for the some of the participants in this thread.
If a shock or spell erases your memories, your int and wisdom stays the same. But you may not be as efficient as you were in certain tasks, hence the level drain effect.
If old age and a degenerative brain illness is in effect, it can affect both memories and int/wis. In d&d rules however, you actualy gain wisdom as you age. Obviously this rule does not take modern old age diseases like Alzheimers, demantia, senility, or brain atrophy into account.
Take Minsc for an exact opposite example. His head wound obviously addled him, hence low wis and int. I am sure he used to have better int and wisdom before, as evidenced by game talk by Dynaheir. But he suffers no memory loss as far as I can tell. He remembers everything, but his brain capacity is forever diminished.
To sum it up, int and wisdom are the capacity, total limits of one individual. Memories are not based on a score, take the comparison of a seasoned, lvl 16 mage with int of 16 vs a lvl 1 gnome with int 19. The lvl 16 mage makes full use of his intelligence, has a lot of memories from adventures, connections, and tons of spells. Yet the lvl 1 gnome with int 19 has never left his village and actually knows little of the world and has no knowledge of spells, very little memories to talk about. BUT he has greater capacity to learn than the mage, if given enough time and hard work.
How much you make use of that capacity differs from people from people. In the simplest terms, a person with more intelligence will be more book-smart, able to memorise and analyse information, see connections, learn new skills and languages easily, they pass classic school exams with little effort. Those with high wisdom are street-smart, they make the right choices in life, they see opportunities and pitfalls, they avoid temptations and grave life mistakes. Two are not mutually exclusive. A person can have both, can have one, or none.
I really like your synopsis of how the mental abilities are defined, and how it works with experience level. Thank you.
I'd say the threshold where the stats largely decouple is probably around 8. Anything below that and high values of the sister value need serious explaining, anything higher and even a 25 in the sister value is perfectly comprehensible.
This is, again, for humanlike intelligence. A creature with some level of precognition could have unnaturally high wis because they're inexplicably making good decisions (think spiderman or a seer), and a machine doesn't need to comprehend information in the way we typically think of to process it effectively.
I like your insight into how the mental stats should be intertwined with each other when using them as a tool to define your character. Thanks.
I would say, however, that you can use vastly different mental stats to make an interesting character concept as well. As an example of how that could be rationalized, I'm sure you know someone like this (we all do): he is very good at convincing someone (high charisma) that he is smart, and people actually believe him. But when it comes time to prove his brainpower, such as in the completion of a project that requires logical thinking, he can't (low intelligence); maybe he can't even remember the things he learned that are required to complete the project. When people call him out on it, he gives and then actually comes to believe some bogus excuse as to why he was not able to deliver this time (low wisdom, as reflected by a lack of self-awareness of his own incompetence). Then, when his inabilities are brought under question, he somehow finds a way to bulls**t his way out of it (high cha), and you are stuck with him doing the next project...again! He of course forgets (or at least claims to have forgotten) the whole previous scenario when asked about it upon the repeat failure of the next project (low wis for being unable to remember three weeks ago? high cha for convincing you when he was actually lying?).
You are right, though, about such a huge stat difference. Once stats get past about an 8 point gap, the conceptual credibility come in to question. There are, arguably, instances of realistic character concepts with what could be interpreted as vastly differently stat scores. Someone could have very low charisma and wisdom but may have incredible powers of memory and retention, that could be defined as intelligence. Take the fictional character Rainman, for example. Rainman had an incredibly good memory for stats and dates, and even conversations (high intelligence). However, he could not take care of himself (low wisdom). Additionaly, he was only able to connect occasionally with his brother (low charisma).
Neither would it be difficult to imagine a character concept interpretation of stats with very high wisdom, and incredibly low charisma and intelligence. Take for example a hermit, living alone in the woods for decades on end, separated from civilization and technology because of some wrong done to him in the past. He is able to live on his own and support himself, and may even be very introspective in enjoying his quiet time (high wisdom); he may be able to remember every tiny detail about his those who wronged him, down to what they were wearing and how they spoke (high wisdom). But due to his long separation from society he has forgotten how everything he learned in school, including how to read, and doesn't know or remember anything about the world around him (low intelligence). When you try to speak to him, he clams up, or even gets very angry because he hates people so much (low charisma), because of the people that wronged him.
But you could just as easily interpret the stats in a completely different way, as my brother did with his highly intelligent, low wisdom, low charisma mage. He made a forgetful character completely different from Rainman (who might not forget anything) with an arguably similar stat-build. The stats in D&D are just tools to be used to help come up with an interesting character concept and role-playing idea. They are not bound to real-world examples, because real-world examples are not truly defined by only 6 2 dimensional stats.
These are several character concept examples of how memory could be affected by a high intelligence and low wisdom, or by a low intelligence and high wisdom. This is kind of the direction I had originally intended/hoped for this thread to go, but due to my own...low wisdom/charisma, lol, I didn't communicate that properly.
The character concepts for stat interpretations are limitless, even between people who would have the exact same stat numbers. With enough imagination, taking the exact same character concept, you could change and rearrange every one of their stats and then creatively justify why that same character reflects the exact same personality and behavior.
What other kind of character concepts could be designed using a low wisdom/intelligence score to reflect poor memory?