Which ones? The longest I've seen is 9, which, if I'm getting it right, means 9 tenths of a round.
That is true. But it's like I said, the engine was never implemented properly. Spells that take 9/10s of a round may not be cast until 2 rounds later, depending on when you cast them in the first round. It's just a mechanical flaw in the game engine.
I don't use it 90% of the time, but if I get stuck on a fight and am reloading I will switch several of them on; it absolutely increases precision and efficiency, it just slows the game down too much for me to use it against trash mods.
I'd love to see an auto pause menu that can be tailored to each individual character. For a tank who just pummels beasts until they're dead, not much auto pause necessary there. For spell casters or others that need more hand holding, you could add whatever auto pauses you want. My biggest complaint with the auto pause on end of round is that it makes combat feel really slow, especially for large groups of trash mobs. Having it only auto pause for certain characters at the end of their particular round would speed things up a bit.
If you tell your Mage to cast near the end of the round, especially longer spells, it doesn't always take effect or cast the next round. I don't know why this is. All I know is sometimes my 1apr archers or fighters can get off two or even three attacks before the Mage spell casts, depending on their speed factor and when they attack...it is even more complicated by your mages actions from the previous round.
It's just flawed. No criticism intended. It's just the way it is and always has been, ever since I played Icewind Dale when it first came out. Being an avid pnp gamer then, I really paid attention to it and always came out confused. I have since accepted it and moved on, and don't give it any thought when it doesn't make sense.
I try not to look at bg like a turn based game, and it helps.
As has been said, it doesn't work well because of the way the Infinity Engine has adapted to the AD&D time keeping. There is a lot of moving around in combat while also taking combat actions, and the end-of-round auto-pause doesn't really work with that. The old Gold Box engine games handled this better, but didn't have the "real-time, cinematic battle" feel that Infinity Engine supplies.
As has been said, it doesn't work well because of the way the Infinity Engine has adapted to the AD&D time keeping. There is a lot of moving around in combat while also taking combat actions, and the end-of-round auto-pause doesn't really work with that. The old Gold Box engine games handled this better, but didn't have the "real-time, cinematic battle" feel that Infinity Engine supplies.
Especially at low to medium levels the goldbox games had excellent tactical combat. Unfortunately, the spell choice was really limited at higher spell levels. But I have fond memories of the different series.
I especially liked the Draconians in CoK - relatively low level enemies that had interesting abilities.
All had some resistance to magic, especially sleep spells. Baaz turned to stone, taking your weapon away for the rest of the fight. Kapak had a paralyzing attack and left acid puddles on the battlefields. Bozak cast spells (including stinking cloud) and explode when killed. Sivak have three APR and can also fulfill the Doppelgaenger role. Finally, Aurak are powerful spell casters, with a Dominating gaze attack and have to be killed twice - after the first time they burst into flame and bersekr, after the second time they explode. Good times.
I never use it. I try to keep the autopause at a minimum, since I consider it "skillful" to make do without it. This means I loose time in between spells, especially when pre-buffing and having four spellcasters I will loose time, but that's part of the 'challenge' for me; to practice my micro (as it is often called in ie RTS games).
I'd love to see an auto pause menu that can be tailored to each individual character.
I completely agree with you, but I'd say that would be overkill for the vanilla game. The game complexity is overwhelming enough for new players as it is. (Remember the first time you played it, back in the day?) I'd say that's the kind of feature that would be great in a mod.
Spells with a casting time of 9 should take 5.4 seconds to cast.
Well, I guess if you cast spell with a casting time of 1, you would have to wait 5.4 seconds for your aura to be cleansed, and then casting a spell with casting time 9 would have you standing there gesticulating for 5.4 seconds, for a 10.8 second delay between spells. But then the next one would happen super quick. You're still casting a spell every round.
The key word in your post is should. What you say is exactly what I thought only a few days ago. However, after all these years we are finding out that the game manual is wrong. A round is not six seconds. Or, to be precise, sometimes a round is six seconds and sometimes it's not, which is worse than just being wrong because it makes everything even more confusing.
Apparently, a round is six seconds when it comes to spell and effects duration. However, when it matters most, ie, in combat, it's NOT six seconds. According to one of the game developers "[a round] is not a period, it's an event" (WTF?!!!). You can see the full discussion here, but I warn you, it poses even more questions and essentially provides no answers. For some reason the developers seem reluctant to clarify this problem.
Edit: it took a while, but eventually I got the answers I was looking for in that thread.
@subtledoctor I understood that the characters rounds weren't timed together, but I just didn't realize that I could cast and make at least one attack and then cast again in the same amount of time that I could cast and then cast again. Now that I know that I may play some of the more intricate battles differently with certain characters. It isn't that big of a change but there are definitely times I can recall gesturing angrily at the screen "Cast already!!!". I won't do that any more.
@subtledoctor Hey, that explains it! I didn't understand anything of how the combat round system worked in the infinity engine games and just assumed they were supposed to be implemented the same way that pnp was (how it is explained in the manual). I still don't understand it, but it explains the phenomenon that I experience. As long as the game knows what it's doing, it doesn't really matter.
Whirlwind and other 1-round HLA's were designed to require the player to utilize the the Cast & Attack tactic, even though they could have been designed otherwise.
because there is no universal clock for rounds, there is therefore no way to pause the game at the end of every round.
Sorry, not following, what do you mean by "universal clock for rounds"?
The game must know at some level when rounds start and when they finish, otherwise it couldn't manage rounds at all. Therefore it looks like it should be possible to create an autopause that does stop the game when the round finishes. What am I missing?
He is saying that each of your party members has an individually recorded round that lasts for six seconds and runs independently of the other party members until you give them a new action. Meaning a round is not six seconds of battle time...a round is six seconds from the time you give nalia a command, and a round is six seconds from the time you give Minsc a command, and a round is six seconds from the time you give Edwin a command, etc., until your give one of those characters another command. End of round autopause happens at the end of each of those character's rounds (which explains why it happens so frequently)....but it's not consistent for every character every round for some reason, so it doesn't really work.
And no, the game doesn't really manage rounds in the way that you envision them. There really aren't "rounds". It's more like "time it takes for actor to accomplish X" that is recorded and handled separately from the other npcs. This really isn't a turn or round based game, so the game doesn't have to keep track of rounds. Neither is it really an rts game. It's kind of it's own thing.
With the AI it's even simpler: each individual has a script that says something like "do something... wait six seconds... do something else... wait six seconds..."
Well, six seconds is a round. The end of those six seconds is the end of the round. If the game says "wait six seconds", then it knows when those six seconds finish, i. e., it knows when the round finishes. So what am I missing?
With the AI it's even simpler: each individual has a script that says something like "do something... wait six seconds... do something else... wait six seconds..."
Well, six seconds is a round. The end of those six seconds is the end of the round. If the game says "wait six seconds", then it knows when those six seconds finish, i. e., it knows when the round finishes. So what am I missing?
@Alonso I truly don't mean any offense, but from your question it seems like you are not reading or understanding the full posts because it has been answered several times. It is not six seconds of combat like in P&P...remove that thought from your head. In fact, its not six seconds of combat at all.
Here's an example. Your party is made up of Nalia, Imoen, Minsc, and Charname. 0 Seconds: Combat starts, all characters automatically attack due to AI. Round of combat for all characters start. 1 Seconds: You paused the game because you notice that Imoen, Minsc, and Nalia are attacking the same character and you don't like that. You order Minsc and Nalia to attack a different enemy. Imoen and Charname handle the ones they automatically chose. A new round of combat starts for both Nalia and Minsc 2 Seconds: Imoen attacks. 3 Seconds: Charname attacks and kills his enemy first hit. You pause the game (let's say you have target gone autopause and it even works this time), and give Charname new orders. A new round of combat starts for Charname 4 Seconds: Nalia attacks. 5 Seconds: Minsc attacks, and kills Nalia's and Minsc's Target. You give new orders to Minsc but not Nalia. Nalia's AI chooses her own target. This starts a new round for Minsc, not Nalia. 6 Seconds: "End of round" Imoen. 7 Seconds: "End of round" Nalia. 8 Seconds: Imoen attacks. 9 Seconds: "End of round" Charname. 10 Seconds: Charname Attacks. Nalia Attacks. 11 Seconds: "End of round" Minsc 12 Seconds: "End of round" Imoen. Minsc Attacks.
What you are calling "2 rounds of combat" (12 seconds) have passed, yet there have been 8 total "rounds", none of them in sync with each other. The only round that would be "in sync" with your concept of combat rounds is Imoen, simply because you never gave her new orders. If you gave her new orders, a new "round" would start for her, completely out of sync with when combat started.
I am not saying that this is accurate at all...I have no idea how speed factor plays into attack timing. Maybe someone who understands it better would be kind enough to correct any mistakes that I may have made.
Despite the flaws of the example, it should clearly convey to you that rounds are not six seconds of combat, they do not stay in sync between characters, and that it is convoluted. Try not to understand it by comparing it to P&P, because it doesn't make sense in comparison to P&P.
Rounds don't even really exist in this game. It is merely "do something, wait 6 seconds" for each character. If you give commands out of sync, then after those commands have been executed and they have waited six seconds, your end-of-round autopause will engage. But this doesn't happen all the time for each of your characters because it is imperfectly implemented. It's the same thing with "target gone" autopause. The game doesn't consistently autopause for every character's target gone.
Its also worth noting that most spellcasting scripts do not require a character to formally wait 6 seconds. They'll just cast when they are next able to (which will depend on if they are casting normally or simply having a spell applied to them).
Thank you for the clarification, @mashedtaters and @subtledoctor, but I already know that (although, admittedly, only since a few weeks ago). I try to avoid writing long posts because sometimes they make things confusing, but maybe in this case some additional detail was granted. So:
All the time, as I talk about rounds and six seconds periods, I'm talking about individual characters. I'm fully aware that different characters have their rounds starting and finishing (if they ever finish) at different times.
"Well, six seconds are a round": In general, of course. But there are exceptions, like @mashedtaters has shown in his nice example.
"The end of those six seconds is the end of the round": Assuming the round has not been interrupted, of course. If the round has been interrupted, the end of the round never happens (or maybe we can say that the end of the round is the moment when it is interrupted, which can be after 3 or 4 seconds, or whatever).
"If the game says "wait six seconds", then it knows when those six seconds finish, i. e., it knows when the round finishes": Again, as long as the round hasn't been interrupted.
Having made these clarifications, I think my question stands. Acknowledging that the round happens only in the context of a character's timeline, and assuming that it is not interrupted:
Its also worth noting that most spellcasting scripts do not require a character to formally wait 6 seconds. They'll just cast when they are next able to (which will depend on if they are casting normally or simply having a spell applied to them).
Ridiculous doesn't mean it doesn't work. Actually, pausing every half second is what the game does with the current misnamed "End of round autopause". Only thing, as you know, is that it pauses when a character completes an action, not at the end of the round.
There's no doubt that's overkill for most battles, but if you're battling, say, Firkraag, it might stop being ridiculous and become very useful. It would tell you things like "Attention: It's been six seconds since your mage cast her last spell, so at this very precise moment she is ready to start casting her killer 'Reduce resistance' which will turn the battle in your favour".
I am fully aware that many players don't want that level of control of their parties, but some of us do, and it certainly looks feasible, even not very difficult, at least from what you've been saying here.
So...I'm not sure what your question is, then. If you understand how it works now, and understand that it's screwed up...what else do you need to know?
Comments
It's just flawed. No criticism intended. It's just the way it is and always has been, ever since I played Icewind Dale when it first came out. Being an avid pnp gamer then, I really paid attention to it and always came out confused. I have since accepted it and moved on, and don't give it any thought when it doesn't make sense.
I try not to look at bg like a turn based game, and it helps.
I especially liked the Draconians in CoK - relatively low level enemies that had interesting abilities.
All had some resistance to magic, especially sleep spells.
Baaz turned to stone, taking your weapon away for the rest of the fight. Kapak had a paralyzing attack and left acid puddles on the battlefields. Bozak cast spells (including stinking cloud) and explode when killed. Sivak have three APR and can also fulfill the Doppelgaenger role. Finally, Aurak are powerful spell casters, with a Dominating gaze attack and have to be killed twice - after the first time they burst into flame and bersekr, after the second time they explode. Good times.
Apparently, a round is six seconds when it comes to spell and effects duration. However, when it matters most, ie, in combat, it's NOT six seconds. According to one of the game developers "[a round] is not a period, it's an event" (WTF?!!!). You can see the full discussion here, but I warn you, it poses even more questions and essentially provides no answers. For some reason the developers seem reluctant to clarify this problem.
Edit: it took a while, but eventually I got the answers I was looking for in that thread.
Is there a Hogwarts-like secret college where they teach this kind of stuff? I'd like to apply for a few lessons.
@subtledoctor I understood that the characters rounds weren't timed together, but I just didn't realize that I could cast and make at least one attack and then cast again in the same amount of time that I could cast and then cast again. Now that I know that I may play some of the more intricate battles differently with certain characters. It isn't that big of a change but there are definitely times I can recall gesturing angrily at the screen "Cast already!!!". I won't do that any more.
Hey, that explains it! I didn't understand anything of how the combat round system worked in the infinity engine games and just assumed they were supposed to be implemented the same way that pnp was (how it is explained in the manual).
I still don't understand it, but it explains the phenomenon that I experience.
As long as the game knows what it's doing, it doesn't really matter.
Edit: thanks for that awesome post, btw.
Something to consider.
The game must know at some level when rounds start and when they finish, otherwise it couldn't manage rounds at all. Therefore it looks like it should be possible to create an autopause that does stop the game when the round finishes. What am I missing?
And no, the game doesn't really manage rounds in the way that you envision them. There really aren't "rounds". It's more like "time it takes for actor to accomplish X" that is recorded and handled separately from the other npcs. This really isn't a turn or round based game, so the game doesn't have to keep track of rounds. Neither is it really an rts game. It's kind of it's own thing.
I truly don't mean any offense, but from your question it seems like you are not reading or understanding the full posts because it has been answered several times.
It is not six seconds of combat like in P&P...remove that thought from your head.
In fact, its not six seconds of combat at all.
Here's an example. Your party is made up of Nalia, Imoen, Minsc, and Charname.
0 Seconds: Combat starts, all characters automatically attack due to AI. Round of combat for all characters start.
1 Seconds: You paused the game because you notice that Imoen, Minsc, and Nalia are attacking the same character and you don't like that. You order Minsc and Nalia to attack a different enemy. Imoen and Charname handle the ones they automatically chose. A new round of combat starts for both Nalia and Minsc
2 Seconds: Imoen attacks.
3 Seconds: Charname attacks and kills his enemy first hit. You pause the game (let's say you have target gone autopause and it even works this time), and give Charname new orders. A new round of combat starts for Charname
4 Seconds: Nalia attacks.
5 Seconds: Minsc attacks, and kills Nalia's and Minsc's Target. You give new orders to Minsc but not Nalia. Nalia's AI chooses her own target. This starts a new round for Minsc, not Nalia.
6 Seconds: "End of round" Imoen.
7 Seconds: "End of round" Nalia.
8 Seconds: Imoen attacks.
9 Seconds: "End of round" Charname.
10 Seconds: Charname Attacks. Nalia Attacks.
11 Seconds: "End of round" Minsc
12 Seconds: "End of round" Imoen. Minsc Attacks.
What you are calling "2 rounds of combat" (12 seconds) have passed, yet there have been 8 total "rounds", none of them in sync with each other. The only round that would be "in sync" with your concept of combat rounds is Imoen, simply because you never gave her new orders. If you gave her new orders, a new "round" would start for her, completely out of sync with when combat started.
I am not saying that this is accurate at all...I have no idea how speed factor plays into attack timing. Maybe someone who understands it better would be kind enough to correct any mistakes that I may have made.
Despite the flaws of the example, it should clearly convey to you that rounds are not six seconds of combat, they do not stay in sync between characters, and that it is convoluted. Try not to understand it by comparing it to P&P, because it doesn't make sense in comparison to P&P.
Rounds don't even really exist in this game. It is merely "do something, wait 6 seconds" for each character. If you give commands out of sync, then after those commands have been executed and they have waited six seconds, your end-of-round autopause will engage. But this doesn't happen all the time for each of your characters because it is imperfectly implemented. It's the same thing with "target gone" autopause. The game doesn't consistently autopause for every character's target gone.
Does this help?
- All the time, as I talk about rounds and six seconds periods, I'm talking about individual characters. I'm fully aware that different characters have their rounds starting and finishing (if they ever finish) at different times.
- "Well, six seconds are a round": In general, of course. But there are exceptions, like @mashedtaters has shown in his nice example.
- "The end of those six seconds is the end of the round": Assuming the round has not been interrupted, of course. If the round has been interrupted, the end of the round never happens (or maybe we can say that the end of the round is the moment when it is interrupted, which can be after 3 or 4 seconds, or whatever).
- "If the game says "wait six seconds", then it knows when those six seconds finish, i. e., it knows when the round finishes": Again, as long as the round hasn't been interrupted.
Having made these clarifications, I think my question stands. Acknowledging that the round happens only in the context of a character's timeline, and assuming that it is not interrupted:***********************************************************************************************
I didn't know that. Can you give us more detail?
There's no doubt that's overkill for most battles, but if you're battling, say, Firkraag, it might stop being ridiculous and become very useful. It would tell you things like "Attention: It's been six seconds since your mage cast her last spell, so at this very precise moment she is ready to start casting her killer 'Reduce resistance' which will turn the battle in your favour".
I am fully aware that many players don't want that level of control of their parties, but some of us do, and it certainly looks feasible, even not very difficult, at least from what you've been saying here.
Pause when enemy sighted is a cheat to me because you have time to back off before the enemy notices you...