How good is an Archer kit late game?
georgelappies
Member Posts: 179
Could one play all the way from BG1 to ToB with an Archer kit and be doing ok with it?
0
Comments
Don't forget that on the very few occasions where missile weapons aren't ideal, you still have a high level warrior with free dual-wielding.
Or is the best ranged weapon a shortbow?
Of those two groups, I personally prefer shortbows due to their higher rate of fire, but that's just me.
I think it's no secret that Archer tears through BG1 like a hurricane through toilet paper, and it certainly continues in a similar fashion for much of BG2 as well. During early/mid game Archer is almost unrivaled in terms of damage output, and with the variety of ammunition accrued over the course of SoA, you also have considerable utility - which, of course, often boils down to simply "what do I load to kill this one faster".
In ToB, there has often been the argument made that Archers are not very good, as the ammo is capped at +3 and there is only one good ranged weapon there (Firetooth). Melee on the other hand are showered in +5 and higher weapons left and right, and can amass some truly ludicrous gear combinations. All that is true, and it does diminish the Archer's relative power. However, being less absurd does not just translate to being useless. In fact, while Archers may not dominate in ToB they are still high performers, and just as reliable against many enemies as they were before. So while there is no question that they are not the kind of steamrolling death juggernaut of doom they are in BG1, they still do quite well in ToB - arguably better than many melee alternatives (though not better than the top choices).
As was mentioned already, in the unmodded game there is little reason to ever use Long Bows. They are quite underwhelming and offer little advantage inherently, and are obviously outclassed when it comes to the selection of magical short bows and crossbows available at basically any stage in the game. In fact, some of the earliest available SBs/XBs are already better than most long bows (Tuigan Bow and Light Crossbow of Speed), and the endgame choices are in a different league entirely. Quite literally so, as Gesen Bow and Firetooth are the only bows/crossbows in the game with +4 or higher enchantment on their ammunition.
All in all, I have found Archer an indispensable component for virtually every (powergaming) party I make. Granted, that is with a lot of mods and at the highest difficulty - but rest assured that Archers more than pull their weight even in ToB. I have, in fact, been known to take two Archers along quite regularly...
Even with standard ammo (or better, the Quiver of Plenty), that's a whole lot of hurt.
By the Underdark, an Archer slowly stops being God Mode and instead becomes a competitive top-tier damage dealer who keeps pace with your best melee attackers instead of leaving them in his dust. By early ToB, the melee attackers start to finally pull ahead, and by the end of ToB he'll be more of a support/utility damage-dealer instead of a total party-carrier. And that's fine. After carrying your entire party through 80% of the game, the poor guy/gal deserves a little break.
Despite not being the top damage dealer, he'll retain plenty of utility. He's great for interrupting mages and stripping mirror images / stoneskins. He's the only physical attacker in the game who can interrupt casters through both PFMW *and* Stoneskin at the same time. He has some utility ammunition to bust out when it's time to deal a particular type of elemental damage, (say, against the Chromatic demon in Watcher's Keep, or when facing trolls). Arrows of Dispelling are extremely potent, if very limited. Same with Arrows of Detonation. Called Shot is a phenomenal debuff. I believe he gets all of his kit bonuses when using Fire Seeds, which is potentially hilarious.
He can switch weapons and be a credible melee attacker if necessary, (I find he's a great target for Staff of the Ram or Ravager+6 if you haven't already earmarked those for someone else in the party). For the most part, melee won't be necessary-- between Gesen, Firetooth, and Everard's Sling, he'll have the means of hitting most everything except Clay Golems. He's good. He'll contribute. He's not top tier, but he's not dead weight, and your party will be better for his presence.
There are a few exceptions to the "no bonus damage" rule. Tuigan Shortbow gives +1 damage, Strong Arm Longbow gives +3 damage, most composite longbows give +1 (regardless of enchantment), and a couple composite longbows give +2. As far as arrows, Acid Arrows get +1 damage plus 1d3 additional acid damage, which makes them the only arrows of note, (a total of +3 average damage, assuming no resistences). Fire arrows only get +1d2 extra, and enemies are allowed a save against it. Barf. Ice Arrows also get +1d2 extra, but at least there's no save.
Crossbows are another beast entirely. Almost all magical crossbows *will* include a damage bonus, and those can get quite hefty. There's a crossbow with +5 bonus damage and a crossbow with +6 bonus damage available to purchase the second you leave Chateau Irenicus, and the latter eventually gets upgraded to +7 bonus damage. (It generates its own ammo, which means it behaves a bit oddly.)
In addition, bolts are far more damaging than arrows in BG2. Base bolts average 1 more damage than arrows, (1d8 vs. 1d6), and there are specialty bolts that go beyond that. Sauhagin drop bolts that deal 1d10 (plus force an enemy to save or be stunned), and Kuo-Toa drop bolts that deal 2d6 damage, (plus also force an enemy to save or be stunned). The former are in relatively short supply, but you'll get 800+ of the latter by the end of SoA.
Moreover, Bolts of Lightning are purchasable almost everywhere, and in addition to their base 1d8, they deal 4d4 electric damage, (save vs. breath for half; breath saves tend to be among the hardest to make).
In order from lowest to highest damage per hit, here's how the ammo stacks up, (pun intended):
Normal or magical arrow: 3.5
Arrow of Fire (with save): 3.5
Normal or magical bolt: 4.5
Arrow of Ice: 5.0
Arrow of Fire (failed save): 5.0
Paralytic Bolt: 5.5 (save or be stunned)
Acid Arrow: 6.0
Kuo-Toa Bolt: 7.0 (save or be stunned)
Bolt of Lightning (with save): 9.5
Bolt of Lightning (failed save): 14.5 (!!!)
And remember, most crossbows are going to grant a greater damage bonus than an equivalent long/shortbow, to boot.
This damage disparity is countered by the simple fact that bows, (both short and long), have a base APR (attacks per round) of 2, while crossbows, (heavy and light), have an APR of 1. Crossbows deal more damage per hit, Short/Longbows deal more hits per round, and everything sort of evens out over time.
The problem for Longbows, (aside from the already-mentioned fact that they're 100% incapable of hitting any enemy that requires +4 weapons, and will be greatly limited in their ability to hit enemies that require +3 weapons), is that they lose their 1 APR bonus. Crossbow users can equip the Light Crossbow of Speed, which gives them the same base 2 APR with the higher-damaging ammunition choices. Shortbow users can equip the Tuigan Shortbow, which gives them a base of 3 APR. Either weapon will outdamage literally every other longbow in the entire game, and both are available ridiculously early on-- like, just sitting around in the Copper Coronet.
(Crossbow users will probably eventually graduate to Firetooth, whose extra damage per hit is generally worth the loss of an attack per round, and which is capable of hitting all those pesky high-end monsters in the late game. Shortbow users can get Tansheron's bow and later Gesen's bow, which enable them to hit those high-end enemies, but typically you'll want to stick with Tuigan's to maximize damage.)
I went more in-depth on a comparison of damage output between shortbows and longbows a couple of days ago. You can read about it here: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/853319#Comment_853319
I mean, there is no time for standing around catching flies when using crossbows and longbows :{
You can test it out in the arena
Given that Rangers (and thus Archers) can only be elves, humans, and half-elves anyway and humans have no bonuses of any kind, there is little reason NOT to be an elf. Unless it's for preference/RP in which case why care about a few THAC0 points.
The higher DPS - the faster they drop to the ground - you take less DMG ... and as far as I remember, best short bows beat best long bows in terms of DPS.
Also: Quiver of Plenty, Gensen Bow and Firetooth generate ammo.
Too late into the game? ->Fill archers inventory with arrows if you're not soloing. What's the problem? Need space for what? You have 5 other heroes...
If you're soloing, it may be a problem, but you won't be standing and shooting at 5 APR anyway - some movement will be required of you! In my previous post I've already spoken about delays
So no, long bow does not win either way!
I'd recommend 2 pips in slings, 5 in shortbows - that should do you marvellously for almost every encounter.
Yes shortbows are the best in BG2.
But an eleven archer decides not to use the "elven court bow" from D'Arniss?
An archer with a high strength score is going to mess around with piddley short bows?
And how many players swap around with items, using one for this another for that?
I carry around the firetooth this playthrough, nobody uses it but I have money to burn and there are a few enemies it works well for.
Archers are lethal in BG and BG2.
Also: don't let the name short bow fool you. They can still have MONSTROUSLY strong draw.
I do think the "long bows can't hit enemies that require +4 weapons" thing is kind of a red herring. As far as I know, the only enemies that can't be hit by +3 weapons are Demiliches (there's two of these in the entire game, both optional, only one of which even gives you anything worth owning), Demogorgon (optional, and role players are generally discouraged from fighting him), the Demon Lord in Ust Natha (optional, and which almost nobody fights, anyway), and the Ravager. Plus mages who cast Improved Mantle, (but not Mages who cast Mantle, Protection from Magical Weapons, or Absolute Immunity. And these protections can all be dispelled, anyway.)
The real problem with Longbows is that (A) Crossbows can get the same number of attacks with more damage per attack, (B) Shortbows can deal the same damage per attack with more attacks, and (C) that uber-Crossbow and Shortbow are both easily obtainable literally within five minutes of completing the prologue.
I find this mod to be indispensable to ranged characters because now I don't have to worry about conserving certain enchanted ammo, so I can use all the good stuff and not horde it due to my "but what if I need it more, later?" problem. It applies to bows - short, long, and cross - as well as slings. That's what I've done. Item Upgrade works for the EEs and Teleomortis +4 also has a 5% chance to cause confusion on hit for 30 seconds.