#2, #4, and #7 for me. When you get Parry working the way its supposed to, then you can balance it. #1 sounds reasonable as a balancing factor once #2, #4, and #7 are applied. Here's my fatigue idea:
When activated, Parry Mode allows you to parry (as per #2 and #4) a number of attacks equal to your BAB successfully before incurring a cumulative -5 Parry skill penalty that lasts for a number of rounds equal to your BAB + the number of attacks you parried after this "parry fatigue" sets in. Failed parry attempts do not count toward this limit (either by the opponent overcoming the defender's parry skill or scoring a nat20). Deactivating Parry Mode early, before reaching the "parry fatigue" limit, resets the number of attacks you can parry back to your normal maximum after 3 rounds. Ripostes are still made at your normal descending AB.
By using BAB as a limiter for the number of attacks you can parry before this fatigue sets in, I think it scales pretty nicely. At epic levels, the playing field gets evened out because BAB increases by 1 every odd level regardless of class, even if your Parry skill is sky-high. Let's see some examples. Assume that all attacks made against the defender are parried; first two examples are Hasted:
* With a dual-kama Fighter/Monk at level 40, you're looking at 29 BAB/29 successful blocks at 9 attacks/round before parry fatigue sets in. Against another fighter with just 5 attacks, it'll take 5.8 rounds for fatigue to begin. Against himself, the Fighter/Monk has only 3.2 rounds before fatigue sets in. In addition, he must risk 1 attack every round that pits his AC vs. his opponent's AB as normal due to the extra attack gained from Flurry of Blows which cannot be used while Parrying. Attempting to Parry for any longer than that against the enemy Fighter/Monk will cost the defending Fighter/Monk dearly, as 29 rounds + 1 round per attack parried after getting fatigued is a very long time to wait for the skill penalty to go away.
* Your bog-standard max-level fighter gets 30 BAB/30 successful blocks at 5 attacks/round before fatigue sets in. Against himself, it takes exactly 6 rounds for fatigue to set in. Against dual-wielders and anyone with more attacks/round than him, it still takes 6 rounds for fatigue to set in, but he must pit his AC vs. the opponent's AB as normal for any attack that goes over his 5 attack/round parry limit.
* An unhasted level 4 Ranger has 4 BAB/4 successful blocks at 2 attacks per round because she is dual-wielding. Parry fatigue sets in after 2 rounds. If she chooses not to dual-wield, it sets in after 4 rounds but she may only parry 1 attack/round. The fatigue duration is rather short since she is low leveled, but the skill penalty may ensure her certain death. She must risk deactivating Parry Mode for 3 rounds to restore her successful blocks to 4.
Yes, it's gamey. Yes, it's kind of technical. Yes, the examples aren't always going to happen exactly as described so the fatigue may set in earlier or later. But it's the best thing I can think of to balance how Parry should be working right now (see #2).
If it stays, please don't make it unnecessarily complicated. An option to hide or deactivate it would be great, too.
PWs can already hide it via 2da editing so getting rid of it for people who don’t want it is essentially already in place.
I’m not against the idea of parry fatigue or any other balancing factor but I’d really like to play a little bit with a working as intended parry to test with.
I’ve notice at lower levels even if I have a toon with maxed skill level, improved parry, and I give him epic gloves of parry, and I’m just running various fight scenarios to test with, it’s still pretty hit and miss. Great for that 1 on 1 melee encounter, kind of useless for everything else. And even with 1 on 1, if my opponent gets a few 20s I’m in big trouble. So even though it is essentially working as intended and I’ve cheated my skill way higher than it should be, it’s situational at best.
Adding fatigue or some other balancing factor means it’s not even ideal for it’s ideal situation.
Maybe that’s oksy. Maybe it’s needed. But again I’d definitely like to test that assumption first. No point in fixing it if it’s ultimately useless anyway.
Even though #1 is my proposed option, I would ideally opt for #7 if it isn't too much work. Opening up for modders is best in all cases. In case #7 we can implement what we want.
If that isn't the case, I think you can all guess that I choose #1, I do feel that is the most balanced way to 'fix parry', letting it be a situational defensive mechanism, without a complete imbalance.
When I think of a skilled parry fighter (or parry master if you will) I think of a great 1 on 1 opponent, or perhaps an opponent that can deflect many blows before succumbing to the onslaught of a group.
My question is, if you have parrying fatigue but there’s no mechanic whereby your opponent suffers any kind of fatigue, then unless you are able to end a fight quickly isnt it pretty much always going to be a losing battle?
Even a fixed parry is limited by numbers without fatigue. More opponents will ultimately overwhelm the defender most of the time anyway presuming it’s a decent challenge rating.
Ranged weapons make it useless.
Spells make it useless.
My concern with adding a fatigue mechanic is that it then becomes more efficient and/or effective just to go ahead and attack. Since attacking means you don’t get progressively weaker round by round.
Balancing it with fatigue means that is ultimately isn’t all that useful in even in its most ideal combat scenario. Which ultimately means it’s still a skill not worth investing in.
"We need player opinions about requests in the “Needs More Discussion” column. For example, there are currently 8 ideas about how to fix the Parry skill in NWN:EE expressed by the community. While we’ll definitely do something with this skill (in the same time keeping it not overpowered), it would help a lot if a consensus in the community could be reached." http://blog.beamdog.com/2018/01/january-19-livestream-recap.html
I'm going to create a poll: so that people could vote on what to do with this skill.
Before I create this poll, could folks here provide feedback to whether I have covered all opinions, or not:
1. The idea of parry fatigue when parrying per round would level the playing field for other combatants but still allow parry to have some use.
2. Parry should block (and attempt ripostes against) every attack in a flurry, up to the defender's number of attacks per round (per the description.
3. Fix that the skill will only ever parry the first attack per "flurry", regardless of how many attacks it can block per round
4. Parry should work as intended. You are standing still deflecting attacks, its a combat mode that doesn't allow to do anything else.
5. Do reasonable. Don't make this ability overpowered.
6. Remove Parry.
7. Provide an option for modders to customize it, make it just a matter of PW configuration.
8. Don't do anything to existing behavior.
9. Another solution (please, suggest).
My votes would be for #2 and #7. Alternatively #8 and #7. The important thing to me is that it should be easily modifiable.
I definitely agree with #7. However, Its been a while since I participated in this thread, so forgive me if my suggestion has been stated already since I haven't been following it that closely, but for #9 I'd like a compromise between #1 and #2: You attempt to parry a number of attacks up to your number of attacks per round, and every attempted parry you take a -5 penalty to your parry check. Counter attacks would be made progressing like normal attacks. If you counterattacked 3 attacks, for instance, your counter attacks would be made at -0/-5/-10. Alternatively, you can counter attack with the attack per round based on how many parries in you are: as in, your third parry would cause a counterattack with the AB of your 3rd attack per round. This would make it so Monks counterattack with their -3 AB progression I guess.
To those that are still concerned that this will be imbalanced in Epic Levels due to Epic Skill Focus, Improved Parry, and items that grant +30 to your parry: yes, it will still be imbalanced with how Parry is currently treated. For items, you should probably think to make nerfed versions to make it more reasonable. On the feats side, either remove them or Beamdog should open them up to modification. Parry shouldn't be treated like other skills IMO since it doesn't function like them, and should be treated more like, say, Attack Bonus. Personally, I would remove Improved Parry. Then I'd modify Skill Focus (Parry) and Epic Skill Focus (Parry) to function more like Weapon Focus and Epic Weapon Focus. Only one type of item (probably gloves) would grant you more parry, and they'd be at +1 to +7 like weapons.
#2, #4, and #7 for me. When you get Parry working the way its supposed to
It is working the way it's supposed to already. What it's not working is the way it's described. That was because the developers thought that it was too strong as described and curtailed it. Obsidian also thought the same and left it "unfixed" in NWN2.
I agree with the two sets of developers; I don't think it's worthwhile spending copious amounts of time to make something else that's broken, so I say #8 and #7. Let modders change it if they wish to spend the time making it balanced. Nothing I'm seeing in any of the other suggestions persuades me that it will be balanced, i.e. useful, but not overpowered.
New Option: Leave the parry mechanic as it is right now. Improve the riposte. (Higher threat range or no dodge AC)
The riposte needs to roll to hit so i dont see it OP. After all you are losing attacks (as you could only riposte 3 times. 1 per flurry. And also you cant choose who you are counter attacking vs multiple opponents).
As I see. The intention of BD is to make parry more appealing. Not necessary a must in every fighter.
I do have a character with parry maxed out by items and its lackluster even pve as you are being attacked more times that could parry.
For pvp. Its about the player skill not throwing melee attacks while the foe is parrying. Numbers may be important in this game, but player skill still matters.
Ok, based on the feedback in the last 24 hours I added another option and changed a bit the option #6. Please, vote in https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/68599/what-to-do-with-parry - as for the comments about actual options, you don't need to copy them from here - your comments are already here and we see them. But in any case - do as you feel right.
Allow your character to block a single incoming attack for each attack they have. Allow you to use any left over attacks as ripostes.
So if your character has 4 attacks and you are being attacked by somebody who has 3 attacks you get a chance to parry all 3 of them and you then get 1 riposte attempt.
However if your character has 2 attacks and you are being attacked by somebody who has 3 attacks you get a chance to parry all 2 of them with no riposte attempts. The 3rd incoming attack is just treated like a normal.
I think there should always be a skill check that will allow critical failure and critical success for each attack you are trying to parry.
I've voted in the poll, the above is my suggestion for how it should work though.
In my mind parry is really something that finesse fighters are more likely to rely on because they do less damage, but have more attacks. When facing off against somebody who can flatten you with 2 blows you are going to want to try and parry their attacks and then riposte against them when you get a breather.
If somebody is hitting you too fast for you to keep up with all the attacks you are only going to be able to parry so many attacks and you won't get a chance to get a riposte in.
Seems to me the Parry skill is not useless at epic levels but is just not as powerful as advertised. How powerful should it be at epic levels? Once the skill is properly documented to let newbies know its limits then that should be good enough - but if there is a consensus that it should be improved then I would be happy with a simple fix such as was mentioned already like a deflection AC bonus for every so many ranks - sort of like Tumble.
Can henchmen or enemy NPCs use Parry? I wonder if a henchman who had Parry could be useful if I could order him to enter and leave parry mode. Can NPCs be scripted to enter parry mode?
Comments
When activated, Parry Mode allows you to parry (as per #2 and #4) a number of attacks equal to your BAB successfully before incurring a cumulative -5 Parry skill penalty that lasts for a number of rounds equal to your BAB + the number of attacks you parried after this "parry fatigue" sets in. Failed parry attempts do not count toward this limit (either by the opponent overcoming the defender's parry skill or scoring a nat20). Deactivating Parry Mode early, before reaching the "parry fatigue" limit, resets the number of attacks you can parry back to your normal maximum after 3 rounds. Ripostes are still made at your normal descending AB.
By using BAB as a limiter for the number of attacks you can parry before this fatigue sets in, I think it scales pretty nicely. At epic levels, the playing field gets evened out because BAB increases by 1 every odd level regardless of class, even if your Parry skill is sky-high. Let's see some examples. Assume that all attacks made against the defender are parried; first two examples are Hasted:
Yes, it's gamey. Yes, it's kind of technical. Yes, the examples aren't always going to happen exactly as described so the fatigue may set in earlier or later. But it's the best thing I can think of to balance how Parry should be working right now (see #2).
If it stays, please don't make it unnecessarily complicated. An option to hide or deactivate it would be great, too.
I’m not against the idea of parry fatigue or any other balancing factor but I’d really like to play a little bit with a working as intended parry to test with.
I’ve notice at lower levels even if I have a toon with maxed skill level, improved parry, and I give him epic gloves of parry, and I’m just running various fight scenarios to test with, it’s still pretty hit and miss. Great for that 1 on 1 melee encounter, kind of useless for everything else. And even with 1 on 1, if my opponent gets a few 20s I’m in big trouble. So even though it is essentially working as intended and I’ve cheated my skill way higher than it should be, it’s situational at best.
Adding fatigue or some other balancing factor means it’s not even ideal for it’s ideal situation.
Maybe that’s oksy. Maybe it’s needed. But again I’d definitely like to test that assumption first. No point in fixing it if it’s ultimately useless anyway.
If that isn't the case, I think you can all guess that I choose #1, I do feel that is the most balanced way to 'fix parry', letting it be a situational defensive mechanism, without a complete imbalance.
When I think of a skilled parry fighter (or parry master if you will) I think of a great 1 on 1 opponent, or perhaps an opponent that can deflect many blows before succumbing to the onslaught of a group.
Reference imagery:
Even a fixed parry is limited by numbers without fatigue. More opponents will ultimately overwhelm the defender most of the time anyway presuming it’s a decent challenge rating.
Ranged weapons make it useless.
Spells make it useless.
My concern with adding a fatigue mechanic is that it then becomes more efficient and/or effective just to go ahead and attack. Since attacking means you don’t get progressively weaker round by round.
Balancing it with fatigue means that is ultimately isn’t all that useful in even in its most ideal combat scenario. Which ultimately means it’s still a skill not worth investing in.
To those that are still concerned that this will be imbalanced in Epic Levels due to Epic Skill Focus, Improved Parry, and items that grant +30 to your parry: yes, it will still be imbalanced with how Parry is currently treated. For items, you should probably think to make nerfed versions to make it more reasonable. On the feats side, either remove them or Beamdog should open them up to modification. Parry shouldn't be treated like other skills IMO since it doesn't function like them, and should be treated more like, say, Attack Bonus. Personally, I would remove Improved Parry. Then I'd modify Skill Focus (Parry) and Epic Skill Focus (Parry) to function more like Weapon Focus and Epic Weapon Focus. Only one type of item (probably gloves) would grant you more parry, and they'd be at +1 to +7 like weapons.
I agree with the two sets of developers; I don't think it's worthwhile spending copious amounts of time to make something else that's broken, so I say #8 and #7. Let modders change it if they wish to spend the time making it balanced. Nothing I'm seeing in any of the other suggestions persuades me that it will be balanced, i.e. useful, but not overpowered.
The riposte needs to roll to hit so i dont see it OP. After all you are losing attacks (as you could only riposte 3 times. 1 per flurry. And also you cant choose who you are counter attacking vs multiple opponents).
As I see. The intention of BD is to make parry more appealing. Not necessary a must in every fighter.
I do have a character with parry maxed out by items and its lackluster even pve as you are being attacked more times that could parry.
For pvp. Its about the player skill not throwing melee attacks while the foe is parrying. Numbers may be important in this game, but player skill still matters.
Please, vote in https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/68599/what-to-do-with-parry - as for the comments about actual options, you don't need to copy them from here - your comments are already here and we see them. But in any case - do as you feel right.
Allow your character to block a single incoming attack for each attack they have. Allow you to use any left over attacks as ripostes.
So if your character has 4 attacks and you are being attacked by somebody who has 3 attacks you get a chance to parry all 3 of them and you then get 1 riposte attempt.
However if your character has 2 attacks and you are being attacked by somebody who has 3 attacks you get a chance to parry all 2 of them with no riposte attempts. The 3rd incoming attack is just treated like a normal.
I think there should always be a skill check that will allow critical failure and critical success for each attack you are trying to parry.
In my mind parry is really something that finesse fighters are more likely to rely on because they do less damage, but have more attacks. When facing off against somebody who can flatten you with 2 blows you are going to want to try and parry their attacks and then riposte against them when you get a breather.
If somebody is hitting you too fast for you to keep up with all the attacks you are only going to be able to parry so many attacks and you won't get a chance to get a riposte in.
Can henchmen or enemy NPCs use Parry? I wonder if a henchman who had Parry could be useful if I could order him to enter and leave parry mode. Can NPCs be scripted to enter parry mode?
From here:
"Icebox List
Cards in the Icebox list are features we've investigated and want to tackle but they are not the highest priority yet."
Anyway, if you questions about this feature request, feel free to ask them during a livestream(s).
Closing the thread for now. Thanks for the feedback, everyone! It is very valuable for the team.