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Discussion of "Trash" Feats/Spells/Etc

24

Comments

  • Dark_AnsemDark_Ansem Member Posts: 910
    Maximize Spell.

    There, I said it.

    DerpCity
  • Lex23Lex23 Member Posts: 34

    It’s funny, dirty fighting is the first thing that popped into my head after reading the thread title.

    I’d rework it all together. Maybe instead of causing someone to lose their extra attacks, it causes a stat effect, like a short duration blindness, daze, or slow on critical instead of the bonus damage a critical hit usually gives. Something that can be situationally useful at all levels but with a trade off that makes it not always a clear choice.

    LOL, same here. Dirty Fighting is kind of the poster-child for useless feats. I like that suggestion for fixing it, it makes more sense to me than extra damage ... when I think of "dirty fighting," I think of the classic "throw sand in his eyes," which should be something like 1d4 rounds of blindness, and not a tiny bit of extra damage.

    cherryzeroMrDamageProont
  • TarotRedhandTarotRedhand Member Posts: 566
    Success! I have just finished modifying Ball Lightning so that it functions just like an electrical version of Firebrand. Took me all day to figure out how to do so, but I finally got it working. Maybe there is hope for me as a NWN modder after all!

    So @Tresset are you going to share, either on steam or the vault (assuming its too big to post here)?

    TR

  • balmzbalmz Member Posts: 11
    i'd agree with dirty fighting, i remember from dragon age it did a short stun effect, maybe df here could blind or stun enemies? be a great non magic way for players

    Proont
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 6,971
    @TarotRedhand Well... There are two problems with that. First, I use Shadooow's community patch so that would be a requirement of my change. Second, I have never shared a NWN mod before so I have no idea how that sort of thing should be done.

  • DerpCityDerpCity Member, Moderator Posts: 264
    @Tresset I imagine that if you simply changed the script it shouldn't necessarily need the Community Patch unless it introduced special functions that you used. Also, while I've never posted to the Vault myself, I imagine all you'd need to do is upload the script file to the vault for download and specify it should be placed in the Override folder in the post's description.

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 6,971
    @TarotRedhand @DerpCity Despite not knowing the proper format and etiquette for sharing NWN mods of this nature, I went ahead and edited the default version of Ball Lightning so that it worked just like Firebrand. I am now uploading this mod here. To install, just extract the files into your override folder. If any of you want to put this mod on the Vault, then feel free to do so. I don't have an account there at the moment. Just make sure to credit me, I guess.

    The Community Patch introduced special functions and changed the scripts of all spells as far as I can tell. I don't think any of them would work on a default install.

    TarotRedhandDerpCity
  • TerrorbleTerrorble Member Posts: 54
    Tresset said:

    OOH! We can talk about trash spells too? YAY!

    Lets start with Ironguts... probably one of the worst spells in the game.


    I laughed when I saw you mentioned Ironguts. I spent a long time re-scripting nearly every spell in some way and Ironguts sat on my "to do" until the very end. I never really did find a niche for it.

    How about Vine Mine?
    Bombardment compared to Horrid Wilting.

    Unlimited cantrips that scale a little is one of the things I luv about D&D 5e.

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 6,971
    Healing Sting is really pathetic in comparison to other spells at similar levels with similar effects. It is like a much weaker version of Vampiric Touch, but one that can be resisted entirely with little more than a fortitude save. It is also quite a bit weaker as a healing spell than cure moderate wounds which appears at the same level (for druids anyway). It would be much more viable if it were a save for half rather than a save to negate, or even if it had no save at all.

    I recently modded the spell to remove that silly saving throw. Now I am actually tempted to use it every once in a while.

    By the way, does anyone know if this spell requires a touch attack by default? I am not noticing one in my game, but I am wondering if that is because I accidentally removed that as well when I removed the saving throw.

    DerpCity
  • DerpCityDerpCity Member, Moderator Posts: 264
    @Tresset Just tested it, there's no touch attack even though the spell states that it's supposed to be the Creature Touched that's afflicted. Seem's odd that it was given a fortitude save instead of a touch attack.

    As for more useless spells...

    I was disappointed recently when I discovered that Vampiric Touch doesn't affect Undead. Obviously it wouldn't hurt them and heal you, but I was hoping it could heal them and hurt me, or in a best case scenario heal them and heal me so I could use it on a mummy familiar I made. Considering I'm not willing to walk up to an enemy as a wizard, it's basically useless to me now. I suppose Negative Energy Ray/Burst will have to do. :disappointed:

  • GrymlordeGrymlorde Member Posts: 80
    Speaking of Dirty Fighting, I removed all prerequisites so that any character can take it at first level. As a result it seems too powerful for first level characters and monsters. However, it does enhance the ability of 1st level fighters to survive. So perhaps this is a good thing. Has anyone else tried this?

    DerpCity
  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 282
    edited June 26
    Tresset said:

    The Community Patch introduced special functions and changed the scripts of all spells as far as I can tell. I don't think any of them would work on a default install.

    Actually it should work. Any spellscript from community patch should work even without community patch because what the spell does is decided when you compile it and game doesn't recompile scripts on fly. So it will work correctly as long as you provide *.ncs file of the script. (Although there is one specialty in that the spellscripts are executing custom script 70_spellhook, so when used without CPP such script will not provide spellhooking features but otherwise it should work.)

    Of course, if someone would want to edit it in toolset and recompile it, then he would need those special includes such as 70_inc_spells (and possibly more) which means using community patch or grabbing the include from it and use it standalone.

    BTW Community Patch changes ball of lighting to only affect single target just as DerpCity mentioned. It is still doing 1d6 per ball thus the spell is still quite bad when dealing with electricity resistance targets.

  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 282
    Tresset said:

    By the way, does anyone know if this spell requires a touch attack by default? I am not noticing one in my game, but I am wondering if that is because I accidentally removed that as well when I removed the saving throw.

    Probably because Bioware used 3.0 source where it is not mentioned.

    In 3.5 spell requires touch attack but has no saving throw and deals 1d12+1lvl max 10. When implemented this way it is one of the best druid spells because it deals negative damage and can be cast a lot of times being low lvl spell using metamagic. I changed it myself in PW I was DM/WB at and it was very useful.

    DerpCity
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 6,971
    I am curious as to what people think about Nature's Balance, the 8th level druid spell. I find that the saving throw it offers to resist its effects a makes it a bit too weak. Granted it lowers SR more than any other spell in the game, I think it is still a poor choice for an 8th level spell because of that save. Would it be imbalanced if the save were removed and the effects were applied automatically?

    DerpCity
  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 282
    Tresset said:

    I am curious as to what people think about Nature's Balance, the 8th level druid spell. I find that the saving throw it offers to resist its effects a makes it a bit too weak. Granted it lowers SR more than any other spell in the game, I think it is still a poor choice for an 8th level spell because of that save. Would it be imbalanced if the save were removed and the effects were applied automatically?

    Definitely thrash spell, crap healing and reducing SR is quite pointless for druid, imo even with saving throw removed it won't make the spell useful. I never bothered with this spell, imo it is candidate for removal as the spell is homebrew made - same named spell in DnD works completely differently.

    Maybe a good edit might be to grant the SR it reduces to your allies as SR increase...

    DerpCityTresset
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 584
    I am personally of the opinion that a lot of the NWN homebrew magic and magic items (in violation of item rules) tend to destabilize the system and creates an entirely different experience. Therefore I personally exclude them. However they are part of the base game and I believe that it should remain that way as players and builders make that choice for themselves. Likewise my opinion of player homebrew is the same, it is a choice that should be up to the end users.

    It's somewhat of a different issue than simply trash features like dirty fighting which the original designers admit was created for an early level niche such as with one shots.

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 6,971

    Mind Fog, the spell that lowers your Will saving throws... unless you make a Will saving throw.

    That did always bother me about that spell... Probably the main reason I never use it.

  • KranyumKranyum Member Posts: 33
    There is so much trash in nwn and I wouldn't hate it as much if trash spells/feats weren't also noob traps.

    One of the biggest culprits for trash imo is also the unwieldy adaptation from a turn-based game like dnd to real time. I played this game for years and never understood what improved initiative was or what purpose it served (pretty much none in this game) while instantly getting it when playing a real turn based campaign.

    dTd
  • TarotRedhandTarotRedhand Member Posts: 566
    @Kranyum Turn based is good when the game is designed for it. Take for example the seriously flawed (way too many puzzles, DLC nigh impossible opponents, etc.) Might and Magic X. If you can ignore those flaws it's quite a good game. But NwN was never designed for turn based. Also it is based around D&D. Did you never play PnP D&D? Initiative is one of the first rules you learn. It determines who tries to make a telling hit first. So improved initiative is not a trash feat. On the contrary it is quite useful.

    TR

  • KranyumKranyum Member Posts: 33
    edited July 3

    @Kranyum Turn based is good when the game is designed for it. Take for example the seriously flawed (way too many puzzles, DLC nigh impossible opponents, etc.) Might and Magic X. If you can ignore those flaws it's quite a good game. But NwN was never designed for turn based. Also it is based around D&D. Did you never play PnP D&D? Initiative is one of the first rules you learn. It determines who tries to make a telling hit first. So improved initiative is not a trash feat. On the contrary it is quite useful.

    TR

    Obviously in PnP improved initiative is a great feat. However, in NWN it really isnt a great one. What does it even mean to act first when everyone is acting at the same time?

    And so are other feats which translate very poorly from turn based to real time.

    Spring Attack comes to mind as another useless feat - which in PnP makes your character able to move before and after the attack in a turn, while in NWN it has been repurposed to mean that you trigger no AOOs (which given its steep requirements and the fact that you already have Mobility (and usually Tumble) is a totally shitty bonus).

    The adaptation of the game to real-time is very lacking.

  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 282
    edited July 3

    So improved initiative is not a trash feat. On the contrary it is quite useful.

    TR

    In reality, initiative has no effect in NWN. Yes, tho one who wins initiative acts first, however the opponent who lost the initiative acts with almost no delay.

    Only attack rolls in first flurry and only the rolls are affected by the initiative. And the attack roll itself has no meaning.

    Specific example:

    I am not 100% sure how initiative works in PnP with more than 1 attacks per round, but even if it would affect only first attack it would still be usefull, the first attack could be already death blow or it could apply some onhit or special attack on enemy which would prevent him to attack.

    In NWN what happens is that character A who won initiative rolls 1-3 attacks (based on how many attacks are in current "flurry") and then character B who lost does the same. Then damage from character A"s attacks is applied to character B and then damage from character B's attacks is apploed to character B no matter that character B is already dead/disabled.

    EDIT: also the character who loses initiative is not flatfooted - i was never able to sneak attack enemy this way.

    Thus there is really no benefit.

    pscytheProontGrymlorde
  • DerpCityDerpCity Member, Moderator Posts: 264
    @Kranyum I won't defend Improved Initiative, as while some mechanics such as knockdown seem to be affected like initiative its still never enough to get me to take it as a feat. On Spring Attack, however, my family and I have been in plenty of situations, particularly recently, where attacks of opportunity have screwed us over in our attempts to manipulate a high level enemy's aggro, as for some reason their Attacks of Opportunity sometimes cause them to simply just switch to the new target, who is usually someone who had ran after getting low on health, healed when the enemy switched to a new target, and returned to attack it. Tumble certainly wasn't helping considering we were in heavy armor, making it horribly unreliable compared to spring attack. Similarly, the other day I died to an enemy that managed to roll max damage on a hit, causing me to back up instinctively because I realized I had underestimated the enemy and wanted to get the heck out of there, which caused him to roll another max damage hit and kill me because of an AOO for running. Once again, I was in heavy armor, meaning tumble wouldn't have helped, especially since I was level 2 and would have had 5 max if I had screwed up my build and taken a bard at level 2 instead of level 7.

    Preferences exist, of course, but until the high levels I'd much rather have Spring Attack over Tumble unless I'm building a high dex character, which isn't overly frequent for me.

    pscythedTdProontGrymlorde
  • pscythepscythe Member Posts: 116
    I agree with @DerpCity, Spring Attack have its uses. Particularly if you're intending on hit-and-run tactics. I tend to take it too when playing STR based types even though I've no intention of leveling in Weapon Master.

    ProontDerpCityOlvynChuru
  • ShadowMShadowM Member Posts: 380
    Shadooow said:

    Tresset said:

    By the way, does anyone know if this spell requires a touch attack by default? I am not noticing one in my game, but I am wondering if that is because I accidentally removed that as well when I removed the saving throw.

    Probably because Bioware used 3.0 source where it is not mentioned.

    In 3.5 spell requires touch attack but has no saving throw and deals 1d12+1lvl max 10. When implemented this way it is one of the best druid spells because it deals negative damage and can be cast a lot of times being low lvl spell using metamagic. I changed it myself in PW I was DM/WB at and it was very useful.
    Thanks, I forgot to drop the fortitude S.T. from the modified 3.5 version in my base. It in the next update.

    On Initiative, I thought about implementing a scripting system that used it more related to surprise encounters or initial combat start (freeze the lowest roller or the surprised PC/henchmen, something along though lines). You would have to make sure the pc new about the system and work it out so it somewhat balanced.

    ProontGrymlorde
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 584
    You can script your own initiative system that makes it more important but the main issue is that you need an extremely short custom heartbeat to intercept combat and the old initiative will still display in the system chat window.

    True turn based combat is really not possible because you can't intercept everything, some attacks and so on still go through.

    As it stands the tools provided to us don't really allow it to be done efficiently or cleanly. Some of the talk about it has been pretty resistant to providing those tools since they think it would be inefficient even if it would be a thousand times more efficient than a purely script based simulation of combat.

  • KranyumKranyum Member Posts: 33
    You can't get spring attack until higher level as it requires quite a bit of investment. Which is why usually by the time you are higher level aoo are less of a problem. Keep in mind that mobility is a requirement for spring attack which already gives you AC against aoo. In a way mobility is actually rendered useless by the new spring attack.

    On the broader topic of turn based play I believe this is the deepest issue on why so many things don't work well in nwn and lots of players are confused. As a newbie I tried to play the game like I would have played Diablo: without understanding that every click you make in this game is actually an important decision.

  • pscythepscythe Member Posts: 116
    Spring attack only makes you immune to AoOs when moving around. But moving around is not the only AoO, there are others such as drinking a potion during combat, casting a spell or using ranged weapon in melee range, that is where Mobility retains its use.

    DerpCitydTdGrymlordeRaduziel
  • KranyumKranyum Member Posts: 33
    Shadooow said:

    So, I made a nwnx hack that makes combatant that loses initiative to be flatfooted until he makes attack roll. Therefore rogue that wins initiative can apply sneak/death attack on all attacks in first flurry.

    But I have a feeling this will be considered overpowered balance change by many... It is really big buff towards rogues...

    But isn't it how pnp works?

    Grymlorde
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