The Kensai has always owned the Archer at ranged damage (and as it turns out, it's totally legit for them to be able use hurled weapons such as axes, hammers, or daggers)....that's nothing new...if they aren't getting extra attacks now for Bows, then the gulf is simply wider, rather then a only narrowly beating them.
@Sharn actually bows don't get any bonus attacks at all (I included an excerpt from the player's handbook on attack rates above)...not even the ones for warrior levels. X-bows get the extra 1/2 attack at warrior level 7 and 13, which makes light crossbows equal in number of attacks to bows, though heavy caps at 3/2 (1.5).
Some what oddly though...according to that same table, Darts and throwing knives are supposed to get a full extra attack from specialization, the lvl 7 warrior bonus, and the lvl 13 warrior bonus, rather then a half-attack like other weapons do.
Technically..the only "bug" if they've decided to implement more PnP accurate ranged weapons is that crossbows are supposed to benefit from the 7 and 13 attack bonus, but not specialization.
well..and thrown daggers and darts should have much higher attack rates then current.
Launchers, such as bows and crossbows, use their own rate of fire to determine their number of attacks per round, regardless of the wielder's proficiency. For bows, this means you always get 2 attacks per round (even with grand mastery). For crossbows, you always get 1.
Which means that if you were getting extra attacks before, it was a bug that has since been fixed. The primary advantage of ranged weapons is and has always been that you don't have to stand next to your target; in the time it takes your enemy to reach you with his axe of bloodying, you might have pelted him with four or more arrows, which is a distinct advantage before you switch to your melee weapon.
@Aosaw If that is the case then what is the point of even saying that you get an extra 1/2 or full extra attack in the proficiency selection screen for these weapons? I do believe that "their own rate of fire" is only their base rate of fire and not a it can only ever shoot this fast kind of rate of fire. Besides the fact that this would be a major change of implementation from the original games.
I would also like to point out that thrown weapons don't get the strength bonus in BG:EE that they arguably should. To now nerf their APR as well is complete garbage.
I would also like to point out that thrown weapons don't get the strength bonus in BG:EE that they arguably should. To now nerf their APR as well is complete garbage.
Actually they do, or at least throwing axes, daggers and slings do. In vanilla BG2 only throwing axes get the strength bonus damage, so it's better than that at least!
Do I understand it correctly: after the patch archers (fighters with bows) have less attacks per round? If so, my solo no-reload run must stop.
If it's not hard, please explain it on the example: how many attacks per round my elf archer with 4 pips in longbows did have before the patch and has it now?
Do I understand it correctly: after the patch archers (fighters with bows) have less attacks per round? If so, my solo no-reload run must stop.
Not just fighters with bows, any character that can specialise or better in a ranged-only weapon (throwing daggers and axes seem to be excluded) does not in the latest patch get extra attacks for specialisation *or* fighter levels.
If it's not hard, please explain it on the example: how many attacks per round my elf archer with 4 pips in longbows did have before the patch and has it now?
Depends what level your archer is for the number of attacks before the patch, but if less than level 7 he/she would've got 5/2 attacks before the patch, 2 attacks after...
If it helps clarify anything for anyone, there's this in the manual:
Missile weapons in Combat--Rate of Fire
Bows, crossbows, and many other missile weapons have different rates of fire (ROF)--the number of missiles they can shoot in a single round. Arrows can be shot and daggers thrown at a rate of up to two shots per round. Some weapons (such as crossbows and slings) take a long time to load, while others are too large to throw quickly (such as throwing axes), and can thus be fired only once every round. Darts can be hurled at a rate of three per round. Whatever the ROF, multiple missile shots are handled the same way as other multiple attacks for the purposes of determining initiative.
I'm doing some further investigation (the Haste thing does sound like a real issue), but the way missile weapons are working now really is the way it's "supposed" to work.
If it helps clarify anything for anyone, there's this in the manual:
Missile weapons in Combat--Rate of Fire
Bows, crossbows, and many other missile weapons have different rates of fire (ROF)--the number of missiles they can shoot in a single round. Arrows can be shot and daggers thrown at a rate of up to two shots per round. Some weapons (such as crossbows and slings) take a long time to load, while others are too large to throw quickly (such as throwing axes), and can thus be fired only once every round. Darts can be hurled at a rate of three per round. Whatever the ROF, multiple missile shots are handled the same way as other multiple attacks for the purposes of determining initiative.
I'm doing some further investigation (the Haste thing does sound like a real issue), but the way missile weapons are working now really is the way it's "supposed" to work.
In some ways I don't have a problem with this (apart from the Haste issue), as missile weapons are still very powerful in BG1, but if this *is* intended, it's a major change, and should've been communicated in the patch notes.
@Aosaw So, there's no point in having GM in bows now (the damage and THACO improvements are not so special)?
Not if your main reason for wanting this is the extra attack, not much point in going more than 3 pips, as this gives the max +3 THAC0, and +3 damage, 4 pips would just give anoter +1 damage, and 5 pips another +1 damage. I don't think you even get an speed benefits for missile weapons.
Of course this assumes the change is intended, not a bug...
Well, whether it's worth it or not is up to you, as it always was. Personally, I think the damage and THAC0 bonuses alone are worth the pips.
Again, this is only my understanding of it and how it's "supposed" to work. I haven't spoken with the developers about it yet (it's on my to do list), so don't take what I said above as gospel just yet.
Don't want to rant, but i hope it's unatended. Imo these rules make sense in Pnp, because bows/x-bows have a range of 60-120 meters , so you can engage foes at really long range, ambush them, etc... Not so much in Bg engine with the fog of war and the relatively small sight radius of the characters.
Don't want to rant, but i hope it's unatended. Imo these rules make sense in Pnp, because bows/x-bows have a range of 60-120 meters , so you can engage foes at really long range, ambush them, etc... Not so much in Bg engine with the fog of war and the relatively small sight radius of the characters.
Actually, that's a good point, as in BGEE the usable range of all bows is sight, which is only 30' - you can't even extend this with a "spotter"
I could imagine to get it working that way, but then Composite Bows should also get a proper damage bonus. Think BG2 tuned them down, cause of their high RoF + mastery + bonus attacks, but there are some Comp. Bows +2/+3 that only give you a tiny damage bonus as supposed to; ie Heartseeker +3 should get +4/+4..Ripper +2 -> +3/+3 with the Comp. Longbow +3 being the biggest Joke of all: +1 DAM bonus! They all already require the highest STR adjustment of 18, which is supposed to give up to +4 damage bonus for such weapons anyway and that is the cap afaik. Only Strong Arm is the mere exception.
That way they would come closer again to melee...their damage is still much lower but with ie a modified Ripper and GM you could get up to 14 damage with normal arrows. [edit: if they are getting capped to 2 ApR then it would only make sense to adjust them properly]
With Rogue Rebalance installed there is no need to ever buy such 'crappy' weapons if you can get comp. shortbows with a 'real' STR adjustment.
This doesn't strike me as the most severe change ever, but that could be because I field my warriors in melee, and leave archery to the classes who double their number of attacks by using them, which explicitly excludes extra attacks anyway.
Overall the worst victim of this, the Archer, probably needs something to compensate (potentially the PnP extra attack per round, or even multiple thereof as they level?), Composite Bows to account for higher strength bonuses need to be added, and haste needs to be reimplemented.
Otherwise it seems fine, how many people really used nothing but bows for all the Cavaliers, Kensais and Dual-Wielding Rangers in BG2?
@Berengar While not obvious at lvl 1, at lvl 2 your thac0 will be 1 better then a thief's, and at level 3 your hit and damage will be better then what even an equal level fighter can achieve. So...you already have greater benefits.
@moopy You only get 1/2 an attack at lvl 7, and the other half at lvl 13 for a total of 1 extra attack. Specialization gives half an attack, and GM adds another 1/2 for another full attack. So if you're a fighter using a melee weapon at lvl 13 with a GM weapon, you should have 3 attacks or 4 if you dual-wield.
If it's only denying you specialization attack, then you'd have 5/2 (2.5) at level 7.
According to the Player's handbook, Bows never get bonus attacks, so they should never go above 2 unless the bow in question is like Tuigan and has 3 base attacks. X-bows on the other hand are shown to benefit from the level based (but not specialization based) extra attacks.
As you can see above, X-bows aren't benefiting from being specialized, but are benefiting from the level based extra attacks, though it clearly shows bows are excluded.
Interestingly, Thrown Daggers and Darts seem to get a full extra attack from specialization, 7th level warrior, and 13th level warrior, rather then a 1/2 attack each like other weapons do.
Here's my understanding of it. Bear in mind that I haven't spoken with the developers, so this is largely my own interpretation of the change:
Launchers, such as bows and crossbows, use their own rate of fire to determine their number of attacks per round, regardless of the wielder's proficiency. For bows, this means you always get 2 attacks per round (even with grand mastery). For crossbows, you always get 1.
Which means that if you were getting extra attacks before, it was a bug that has since been fixed. The primary advantage of ranged weapons is and has always been that you don't have to stand next to your target; in the time it takes your enemy to reach you with his axe of bloodying, you might have pelted him with four or more arrows, which is a distinct advantage before you switch to your melee weapon.
Now, a developer might come in and directly contradict me on this, but that's what it looks like to me.
Here's my retort to that. The game explains that at each rank gives you 1/2 attack and GM gives you a full attack. And that is stated for the bows. And as stated by many others, BG does not follow PnP rules perfectly and had it been intended by the patch then they would have listed it in the patch notes.
While @Aosaw 's guess is probably right, and this change was probably intentional, I did submit an issue to the tracker to get the official call. The Haste bug (likely a side-effect of the APR "fix") has been added to that issue as well.
Even if it was intended it makes little sense, why would a grandmaster archer fire at the same rate as a bard with 8 dex with no ranged proficency at all?
I can agree that archery is very strong at the first few levels of BG1, but it seems weird to balance it in a way which only makes archery progressively even more obsolete over the course of BG1->ToB.
Comments
Even for the APR you get at 7 and 13, not just weapon skill?
Edit:
My 7 Kensai / 9 Thief with grand mastery in axes has 5/2 attacks per round with throwing axes.
My Kensai owns an Archer at ranged damage, and attacks more.
If this was intended that is hilarious.
@Sharn actually bows don't get any bonus attacks at all (I included an excerpt from the player's handbook on attack rates above)...not even the ones for warrior levels. X-bows get the extra 1/2 attack at warrior level 7 and 13, which makes light crossbows equal in number of attacks to bows, though heavy caps at 3/2 (1.5).
Some what oddly though...according to that same table, Darts and throwing knives are supposed to get a full extra attack from specialization, the lvl 7 warrior bonus, and the lvl 13 warrior bonus, rather then a half-attack like other weapons do.
Technically..the only "bug" if they've decided to implement more PnP accurate ranged weapons is that crossbows are supposed to benefit from the 7 and 13 attack bonus, but not specialization.
well..and thrown daggers and darts should have much higher attack rates then current.
Yes, but now they own them more.
it doesnt provide AN EXTRA ATTACK like stated in its description
BTW can you change your APR with Shadowkeeper to fix this temporarily?
Edit. I ment can you change your base apr to correlate your weapon proficiency (not fix the haste spell problem).
Have these issues been officially bug reported yet?
If it's not hard, please explain it on the example: how many attacks per round my elf archer with 4 pips in longbows did have before the patch and has it now?
If it's true, it's definitely a bug because in BG2 it isn't so. And this change is not included into patch fix list, that shows it's not intentional
In some ways I don't have a problem with this (apart from the Haste issue), as missile weapons are still very powerful in BG1, but if this *is* intended, it's a major change, and should've been communicated in the patch notes.
So, there's no point in having GM in bows now (the damage and THACO improvements are not so special)?
Of course this assumes the change is intended, not a bug...
Again, this is only my understanding of it and how it's "supposed" to work. I haven't spoken with the developers about it yet (it's on my to do list), so don't take what I said above as gospel just yet.
They all already require the highest STR adjustment of 18, which is supposed to give up to +4 damage bonus for such weapons anyway and that is the cap afaik. Only Strong Arm is the mere exception.
That way they would come closer again to melee...their damage is still much lower but with ie a modified Ripper and GM you could get up to 14 damage with normal arrows.
[edit: if they are getting capped to 2 ApR then it would only make sense to adjust them properly]
With Rogue Rebalance installed there is no need to ever buy such 'crappy' weapons if you can get comp. shortbows with a 'real' STR adjustment.
Overall the worst victim of this, the Archer, probably needs something to compensate (potentially the PnP extra attack per round, or even multiple thereof as they level?), Composite Bows to account for higher strength bonuses need to be added, and haste needs to be reimplemented.
Otherwise it seems fine, how many people really used nothing but bows for all the Cavaliers, Kensais and Dual-Wielding Rangers in BG2?
And as stated by many others, BG does not follow PnP rules perfectly and had it been intended by the patch then they would have listed it in the patch notes.
I can agree that archery is very strong at the first few levels of BG1, but it seems weird to balance it in a way which only makes archery progressively even more obsolete over the course of BG1->ToB.