I can agree that archery is very strong at the first few levels of BG1, but it seems weird to balance it in a way which only makes archery progressively even more obsolete over the course of BG1->ToB.
BG2 'balanced' their ranged weapon in their own way, like no damage bonus to arrows, 1/2 or 1/3 of the 1d6 elemental damage and as mentioned above no real +DAM to composite bows. If that is getting 'fixed' the way it is supposed to work, I don't mind the 2ApR restriction according PnP.
An archer under these modified conditions can still deliver quite some damage, even with only 2 ApR.
[else am still free to modify it that way myself ^^ though I might wait to buy BG2EE right after the release. My modded BG2 is working flawless and I see no reason to change that....]
There isn't. But I'll take a look in NearInfinity this this afternoonthis evening at some point in the next day or two, and see if there's a way to mod it easily. If there is, that may be an acceptable workaround for those who don't like the change.
Why a workaround? If you start walking that path you shouldn't have bought the EE imo. If it's intended then I'll trust the devs judgement. If not, then I'll hope they fix it asap.
What seems to have happened is this: Attacks per round bonuses are linked to the weapon - not your character. So all melee weapons have a base attack of 1 per round. A level 1 fighter with 2 pips gets a 1/2 attack per round bonus so his base attacks go up to 3/2 A level 7 fighter with 2 pips earns another 1/2 attack per round so base attack total goes up to 2.
If you were to find a magical weapon that gives an extra attack (like Belm) it's base attack is increased to 2. So your level 7 fighter would wield it at 3 attacks.
This bonus number 2 can be an Increase modifier (ie: 1 extra attack) or it can be Set modifier fixing the attacks per round to 2. Same number 2, just used in a different way.
For all bows this used to be an increase modifier (just like Belm). It has now changed to a set one. This could have been done in error. Some people write code that do batch modifications on several items at once. I don't think it was done intentionally. Surely such a change would have been put before the masses for an opinion first.
(PS: The Turgin Bow is described as being set to 3 attacks per round. Actually it's an increase modifer not a set one. A grandmaster in small bows could pull off 5 attacks with it).
Why not? I think a lot of people just stopped playing because of this change especially since we don't know if it was intended or not. I for one would love to be able change this back right now. Who knows how long we have to wait for the next official patch.
Why a workaround? If you start walking that path you shouldn't have bought the EE imo. If it's intended then I'll trust the devs judgement. If not, then I'll hope they fix it asap.
Well, one of the great things about BG (and most PC games) is that you can modify it to make it what you want. I can change Minsc's Two-Weapon Style proficiency pips to Two-Handed Weapon Style (and I have), which lets me play the game the way I want. It allows players who disagree about design decisions to each enjoy the game to their own tastes.
So if it turns out it wasn't a bug, but an intentional change, then I can try to find out if it's possible to change it with mods so that everyone can play the way they want to. Personally I like the change (it's how ranged weapons are supposed to operate anyway), but there's nothing wrong with people feeling differently.
For all bows this used to be an increase modifier (just like Belm). It has now changed to a set one. This could have been done in error. Some people write code that do batch modifications on several items at once. I don't think it was done intentionally. Surely such a change would have been put before the masses for an opinion first.
If you check BG2 items/bows, they also are "set to 1" (1) and "modified to 2 ApR" (2) and it was ever since. Both numbers/options are identical to BGEE, so the change was done in a different way, cause Bows/Xbows in BG2 can still be affected by Fighter-class level ApR changes or specialization/GM.
@valky You are right. And if you look at Belm it has a 1 in its increase attacks. I stand corrected.
What I'd interpret from this is that the 'set' value didn't work in BG2 and was the equivilent of 'base attacks'. Now it does work. It really does set it.
I honestly doubt that, then at least some fixpack would have corrected it or made it an optional fix. Seeing it ever since that way in BG1/BG2/IWD1/IWD2 and was never changed, so that must have been a terrifying bug, that no one could fix ever since
Check ie Dagger & Darts in BG2, create a Fighter, give him 5 pips in dagger or darts...'create' boomerang dagger or anything else - > check your ApR. Now create a Thief, 'edit' him to 5 pips in dagger, give him some throwing dagger -> check your ApR.
You should notice a 'tiny' difference then, so the 'set' value is working as intended in BG2. The same is done in the class files (hardcoded?) in BGEE and not weapon dependent at all. As Throwing dagger and Darts using the same entries: set to 1 -> modified to 2 or 3 for Darts.
If this was intended because it is how ranged weapons are "suppose to" work, I presume we can be expecting their range to be increased to proper PnP range (outside of the current fog of war) and I presume we'll be getting the correct strength bonus on composites, and correct arrow damage?
I had more I could say on the subject, but I think I should wait for a developer to weigh in before we get carried away.
Arrows are at least already corrected and launcher & projectile set to 100 feet. So the restriction to not fire in a characters' own fog of war is set somewhere else.
I had more I could say on the subject, but I think I should wait for a developer to weigh in before we get carried away.
^this. Everyone's getting carried away with things like mechanics, PnP accuracy, game balance, etc. all of which may very well end up being moot points as soon as we get a comment from the devs.
The problem I have with that approach, is if I wanted to mod my game I'd play BGT.
I'm still betting it wasn't intentional, because if it was it would have been in the patch notes, and if this had been in the patch notes I would have never upgraded versions.
Yeah I understand, it's kind of a major change with pretty big consequences at all. And I doubt it was indeed intentional. Still I'd like to see how things would turn out if I'd change it in my running BG2 game - if that is even possible. Or at least restrict ranged weapon from spec/GM bonus, so only F/P or Ranger get a bonus at 7 and 13. Am currently having a NPC mod Archer in my party and I have to admit the damage is quite respectable :P Currently she is lvl 16 and the bonus from archery & GM alone is 10, atweak modded regularly ammunition (includes damage bonus) +2 arrows, Heartseeker +2 = that's a bonus of 14 alone + ~3 from a mediocre 1d6 arrow roll. Archery is capped at +9, so she does roughly ~20 damage with each shot in the endgame. Plus she is having 4 ApR (using revised GMastery with 1 additional ApR @5 pips) so Imp hasted 8. In a vanilla game that'd be enough to kill any (!) dragon in 1.5-2 rounds - if you'd ignore the Dragon-buffs.
I think that's quite huge but still can be beaten easily with a dual-wielding class, though that's intended. Or even with a single-weapon wielding sword&board tank, given the huge bonus items to STR ingame or other crazy buffs for even m0ar damage.
Yet is was an Archer example...would be looking bad for a common ranger.
@Valky: I think we'll agree to disagree. I'll stick with my theory
If you do a similar test to yours with slings - compare BG2 with BG:EE. Slings (in both games) have an attack per round bonus 'set' at 1. In BG2 you can make a high level fighter that uses slings and he will get more than 1 attack per round. In BG:EE he will always be stuck at 1 attack per round.
My thinking is that the old 'set' bonus = base number of attacks. In this case a bonus of 1 is a null bonus and you wouldn't notice it. The new 'set' bonus now actually works. Attacks per round are set at whatever value.
As for being a monumental bug that no one previously noticed, well, these things happen. Wasn't there a ship once that didn't notice a bloody big iceberg? (Not that hundreds of people will die because of this particular mistake)*.
*Though, if that were to happen in BG, those bleedin' precious elves would get into the lifeboats first and leave Kate Winslet (sorry, Imoen) tap-dancing with the demi-humans to drown in steerage.
Lets just wait for a response then. IMO it was ever since working that way but restricted to certain classes. So my guess there are 'other' files that needs or can be edited to change that.
Some time ago I had the Sharpshooter-Kit (thief) installed and gave it a try and was stuck to the basic ApR (bow 2, Xbow 1 etc) despite having 5 pips in ranged weapons. And my game was only modified by common stuff like tweaks&fixpack. I guess even in a vanilla game it'd be the same.
As said, I'd live with such a change in BG2EE (BGEE already did that partially) if certain items gets re-balanced; Comp. Bows get their 'real' +damage, arrows(bolts?) +dam and fix the elemental damage of any arrows/bolts/stones back to proper 1d6 or in some cases 2d6.
Still I'd never ever touch X-bows again with only 1 ApR, even if their +DAM bonus + ammo is quite something. Don't know if it's possible, like the posted sheet from the player's handbook, that way for x-bows, so they at least get the ApR bonus per fighter-class based levels. Yet you have to ignore the fact that the game does not distinguish between heavy and light xbows.
There is no way to fix it, all ranged weapon in BG and BG2 have the same range of 30 feet, and the 60-120 feet someone mentioned earlier is just the short range of the weapons in pnp, you double that number to find mid range, double it again for long range, and double it yet again for extreme range, so bows and crossbows can be used to engage targets at very long ranges in pnp.
The extra attacks where the only thing that actually made them viable in the infinity games, they where still inferior to melee but at least you didn't feel like your character was useless.
I still think that this was an accident. I would think that if this were intentional then they would have at least TOLD US in the patch'es change log. Besides IF the bonus ranged attacks were actually a "bug" then this is the first time ANYONE has attended to it in over 14 YEARS!
If it helps clarify anything for anyone, there's this in the manual:
Missile weapons in Combat--Rate of Fire
Bows, crossbows, and many other missile weapons have different rates of fire (ROF)--the number of missiles they can shoot in a single round. Arrows can be shot and daggers thrown at a rate of up to two shots per round. Some weapons (such as crossbows and slings) take a long time to load, while others are too large to throw quickly (such as throwing axes), and can thus be fired only once every round. Darts can be hurled at a rate of three per round. Whatever the ROF, multiple missile shots are handled the same way as other multiple attacks for the purposes of determining initiative.
I'm doing some further investigation (the Haste thing does sound like a real issue), but the way missile weapons are working now really is the way it's "supposed" to work.
That doesn't clarify anything for me. If that is the case then why are throwing axes not "set" to 1 per round? Even the latest patch did not affect them. Yet more evidence showing that this was not intentional.
Comments
If that is getting 'fixed' the way it is supposed to work, I don't mind the 2ApR restriction according PnP.
An archer under these modified conditions can still deliver quite some damage, even with only 2 ApR.
[else am still free to modify it that way myself ^^ though I might wait to buy BG2EE right after the release. My modded BG2 is working flawless and I see no reason to change that....]
Yeah I was in the middle of an Archer play through, so I'm going to put that on hold.
I'm guessing there isn't some sort of version control functionality where I can revert patches is there?
If it's intended then I'll trust the devs judgement. If not, then I'll hope they fix it asap.
Attacks per round bonuses are linked to the weapon - not your character.
So all melee weapons have a base attack of 1 per round.
A level 1 fighter with 2 pips gets a 1/2 attack per round bonus so his base attacks go up to 3/2
A level 7 fighter with 2 pips earns another 1/2 attack per round so base attack total goes up to 2.
If you were to find a magical weapon that gives an extra attack (like Belm) it's base attack is increased to 2. So your level 7 fighter would wield it at 3 attacks.
This bonus number 2 can be an Increase modifier (ie: 1 extra attack)
or it can be Set modifier fixing the attacks per round to 2.
Same number 2, just used in a different way.
For all bows this used to be an increase modifier (just like Belm). It has now changed to a set one.
This could have been done in error. Some people write code that do batch modifications on several items at once. I don't think it was done intentionally. Surely such a change would have been put before the masses for an opinion first.
(PS: The Turgin Bow is described as being set to 3 attacks per round. Actually it's an increase modifer not a set one. A grandmaster in small bows could pull off 5 attacks with it).
So if it turns out it wasn't a bug, but an intentional change, then I can try to find out if it's possible to change it with mods so that everyone can play the way they want to. Personally I like the change (it's how ranged weapons are supposed to operate anyway), but there's nothing wrong with people feeling differently.
And if you look at Belm it has a 1 in its increase attacks. I stand corrected.
What I'd interpret from this is that the 'set' value didn't work in BG2 and was the equivilent of 'base attacks'. Now it does work. It really does set it.
Seeing it ever since that way in BG1/BG2/IWD1/IWD2 and was never changed, so that must have been a terrifying bug, that no one could fix ever since
Check ie Dagger & Darts in BG2, create a Fighter, give him 5 pips in dagger or darts...'create' boomerang dagger or anything else - > check your ApR.
Now create a Thief, 'edit' him to 5 pips in dagger, give him some throwing dagger -> check your ApR.
You should notice a 'tiny' difference then, so the 'set' value is working as intended in BG2.
The same is done in the class files (hardcoded?) in BGEE and not weapon dependent at all. As Throwing dagger and Darts using the same entries: set to 1 -> modified to 2 or 3 for Darts.
If this was intended because it is how ranged weapons are "suppose to" work, I presume we can be expecting their range to be increased to proper PnP range (outside of the current fog of war) and I presume we'll be getting the correct strength bonus on composites, and correct arrow damage?
I had more I could say on the subject, but I think I should wait for a developer to weigh in before we get carried away.
And what about a GWW attack? How an archer is going to survive in ToB without 10 APR?
And it will be great if we get an instruction how to fix the change - in SK, NI, etc.
That's plenty fast. Thanks I appreciate it.
The problem I have with that approach, is if I wanted to mod my game I'd play BGT.
I'm still betting it wasn't intentional, because if it was it would have been in the patch notes, and if this had been in the patch notes I would have never upgraded versions.
Yeah I understand, it's kind of a major change with pretty big consequences at all. And I doubt it was indeed intentional. Still I'd like to see how things would turn out if I'd change it in my running BG2 game - if that is even possible. Or at least restrict ranged weapon from spec/GM bonus, so only F/P or Ranger get a bonus at 7 and 13. Am currently having a NPC mod Archer in my party and I have to admit the damage is quite respectable :P
Currently she is lvl 16 and the bonus from archery & GM alone is 10, atweak modded regularly ammunition (includes damage bonus) +2 arrows, Heartseeker +2 = that's a bonus of 14 alone + ~3 from a mediocre 1d6 arrow roll. Archery is capped at +9, so she does roughly ~20 damage with each shot in the endgame.
Plus she is having 4 ApR (using revised GMastery with 1 additional ApR @5 pips) so Imp hasted 8.
In a vanilla game that'd be enough to kill any (!) dragon in 1.5-2 rounds - if you'd ignore the Dragon-buffs.
I think that's quite huge but still can be beaten easily with a dual-wielding class, though that's intended. Or even with a single-weapon wielding sword&board tank, given the huge bonus items to STR ingame or other crazy buffs for even m0ar damage.
Yet is was an Archer example...would be looking bad for a common ranger.
If you do a similar test to yours with slings - compare BG2 with BG:EE.
Slings (in both games) have an attack per round bonus 'set' at 1.
In BG2 you can make a high level fighter that uses slings and he will get more than 1 attack per round.
In BG:EE he will always be stuck at 1 attack per round.
My thinking is that the old 'set' bonus = base number of attacks. In this case a bonus of 1 is a null bonus and you wouldn't notice it.
The new 'set' bonus now actually works. Attacks per round are set at whatever value.
As for being a monumental bug that no one previously noticed, well, these things happen. Wasn't there a ship once that didn't notice a bloody big iceberg? (Not that hundreds of people will die because of this particular mistake)*.
*Though, if that were to happen in BG, those bleedin' precious elves would get into the lifeboats first and leave Kate Winslet (sorry, Imoen) tap-dancing with the demi-humans to drown in steerage.
Lets just wait for a response then.
IMO it was ever since working that way but restricted to certain classes. So my guess there are 'other' files that needs or can be edited to change that.
Some time ago I had the Sharpshooter-Kit (thief) installed and gave it a try and was stuck to the basic ApR (bow 2, Xbow 1 etc) despite having 5 pips in ranged weapons. And my game was only modified by common stuff like tweaks&fixpack. I guess even in a vanilla game it'd be the same.
As said, I'd live with such a change in BG2EE (BGEE already did that partially) if certain items gets re-balanced; Comp. Bows get their 'real' +damage, arrows(bolts?) +dam and fix the elemental damage of any arrows/bolts/stones back to proper 1d6 or in some cases 2d6.
Still I'd never ever touch X-bows again with only 1 ApR, even if their +DAM bonus + ammo is quite something. Don't know if it's possible, like the posted sheet from the player's handbook, that way for x-bows, so they at least get the ApR bonus per fighter-class based levels.
Yet you have to ignore the fact that the game does not distinguish between heavy and light xbows.
The extra attacks where the only thing that actually made them viable in the infinity games, they where still inferior to melee but at least you didn't feel like your character was useless.
Daggers don't, they have 30 feet.
Oh, and since I'm here...
Arrows have 100 foot range.
TAxes have 75 foot range
That doesn't clarify anything for me. If that is the case then why are throwing axes not "set" to 1 per round? Even the latest patch did not affect them. Yet more evidence showing that this was not intentional.