I don't know...the Defender is actually pretty weak, and restricted to a single race. Their defensive stance doesn't give them any status effect immunities, so...they're basically a Barbarian...with better armor choices and no immunities. It doesn't even add extra damage resistance, just a tiny amount of useless AC...so..it's current form..it's actually pretty bad, compared to the Barbarian or Berserker.
which means I'm almost fully ok with it, provided they change it to only be able to specialize, not GM (that should ONLY be available to a plain fighter, ALL kits are supposed to give it up as part of their disadvantages)
The rest are...ok...the SM Monk gives up several abilities for a few others, so it doesn't really change the dynamic much.
The dragon disciple sounds alright, depending on how much their casts per day are penalized (same as a plain wizard sounds about right since they still suck at melee).....though that Con bonus is pretty sucky...unless they have an unlisted use of the Warrior con table, you're wasting a lot of extra of Con for a tiny spec of regen that is overwritten by any item that gives regen.
The shadow dancer sounds ok, trades a lot of damage potential for the ability to BS repeatedly without items, but has heavily gimped skill progression and is no stronger then a plain thief vs non-BSable targets. The assassin at least gets poison weapon and a +1 hit/damage to help out vs those times so, actually pretty balanced.
Kits are suppose to have some disadvantages, Dwarven Defender has almost none, only a slight weapon restriction, and is superior to a regular fighter in every other conceivable way.
Must be dwarf. Meaning u can't dual it. That makes it inheritantly disadvantaged vs every other kit. It's fine
Wait, what? There are now monk and sorcerer kits?! Come on, I can't be the only one who's more than just interested in the possibility of adding additional kits for the previous "kitless" classes... right?
Anyway, the majority of the new(?) kits are sadly too unimaginative for my taste. We already saw the Dwarven Defender, Dragon Disciple and Shadow Dancer more than enough in both NWN, NWN2 and to some extend also in D&D Online if I remember correctly. The Dark Moon Monk is more unique in that regard, since they only made an appearance in Icewind Dale II afaik.
I don't know about others, but I'd rather have either some of the classic PnP AD&D kits or completely new "homebrew" ones which Overhaul came up with.
Here's a few Bard kits and changes I would propose, taken directly from the 2nd edition Complete Bard, with a few recommended tweaks to existing kits to bring them more in line with their PnP counter parts.
Good find. I wish if they would have a paid DLC for kits, they should be the "out of the box kind of kits" like Psions or Archmages. These kits are good, but relatively subpar when compared to the kitpack mod by @Requiem. Hide in Plain Sight looks nice though; but Shadowdancer won't be as much fun as it is in NWN since class combinations in BG is limited to dual-classing and fixed multiclass options.
Kits are suppose to have some disadvantages, Dwarven Defender has almost none, only a slight weapon restriction, and is superior to a regular fighter in every other conceivable way.
Kits are suppose to have some disadvantages, Dwarven Defender has almost none, only a slight weapon restriction, and is superior to a regular fighter in every other conceivable way.
Except that it is exclusively available to dwarves and cannot be dualled. Right, almost devoid of disadvantages.
I can see being stuck in a single class kit may a disadvantage. If your a player that never plays multi or duel class it is a great kit!
i doubt it, in NWN you can take a level of SD anytime (for instance, you can be 1 SD/ 19 Rogue , or something like 1 SD/ a few level a rogue/ and alot of levels of assassin), you get full sneak attack progression
That is, you can take levels in SD anytime *after* you get the feats and skills the prestige class requires (evasion, mobility, so and so many ranks in hide, and whatever it was). It takes some time to get there; how much depends on your build.
Hmmm, new kits are always good, but these seem a tad unimaginative (and I never even played NWN).
Maybe they're trying to come up with kits that won't be too 'why isn't this BG1 NPC this kit', but I think it would be better to drag a bunch of kits from the Complete 2e books.
It'd be cool if they asked/could get permission from the creators of things like Divine Remix and the other kits mods to integrate some of them into the game.
I actually entirely approve of this addition of kits. The more kits the better, as long as they don't explode the game in epic contradiction somehow. And although I never found any enjoyment out of NWN, it was more because of the game's interface/graphics/all that jazz than anything. So, this sounds awesome to me. My favorite thing about NWN was probably the plethora of classes and build ideas.
They should just replace Archer with Arcane Archer, speaking of which. Lol
Dwarven Defender sounds kickass. I get pretty bored of people always saying "PLAY DWARVEN FIGHTER ... BERSERKER!" and I'm like dude, no. Fighter/Cleric forever. But now I will want to try the Defender as well.
With the Shadowdancer they need to come up with a better disadvantage than nerfing backstab, since backstab is the entire point of the class. Or at least cap at x4 instead of x3 ... As it stands, they look like a crappy Assassin IMO. Shadowstep sounds pretty neat, but other than that, no thanks I'll take an Assassin.
Dragon Disciple: I don't see why everyone's hating on this. Clearly, they will have the same spells/day as a Specialist Mage. So yeah, not as good as a vanilla Sorceror, but still plenty good. I will enjoy playing this kit. The Constitution bonus actually sounds pretty sweet, I will make a Human Dragon Disciple with 18 Constitution, use the Tome, level up to level 5 and voila ... 20 Constitution you are now regenerating. The AC bonus seems really handy as well, and sure why not some Fire Resistance and Dragon's Breath. Sounds pretty legit. Some nice little perks here and there sound like a fairly even trade-off for one less spell/level.
Dark Moon Monk: LOLOLOL Chill Touch. Everything else sounds legit though! Seems very much on-par with a normal Monk, truly. You miss out on Lay on Hands, isn't that about it?
Wow, good find. Dragon Disciple: I don't see why everyone's hating on this. Clearly, they will have the same spells/day as a Specialist Mage. So yeah, not as good as a vanilla Sorceror, but still plenty good. I will enjoy playing this kit. The Constitution bonus actually sounds pretty sweet, I will make a Human Dragon Disciple with 18 Constitution, use the Tome, level up to level 5 and voila ... 20 Constitution you are now regenerating. The AC bonus seems really handy as well, and sure why not some Fire Resistance and Dragon's Breath. Sounds pretty legit. Some nice little perks here and there sound like a fairly even trade-off for one less spell/level.
In fact, I think it's plenty plenty good! Natural 100% fire resistance? You can easily add some more, say ring of fire resistance, and you're a healing machine from spells like fireball.
They should just replace Archer with Arcane Archer, speaking of which. Lol
I believe they can add multi-class kits, it just has to count as one of the single classes kit total. So they could make a Fighter/Mage have the Arcane Archer kit and take up one of the Fighter's pool (I believe the Mage is capped out from all the specialist Mages).
That's the stuff that would be cool to see. Arcane Archer, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, Bladesinger, and ok... I'm off on a magical tangent here, but I'd like to see some multi-class lovin'.
Monk kit means sacred first (slower monk progression but ability to cast cleric spells) might be possible...
Sorcerer kit means possible eldritch knight, pale master etc...
But the biggest advantage seems that Dragon disciple might get unique spell book, which means that the 2DA that controls spells called clskills.2DA might be accessible to modders... This might be truly good news since that 2DA file also determins other factors such which class gets Druid/cleric/Mage spells (for example, cleric/ranger multiclass is set to get both Druid/cleric spell books), turn undead level, thief/bard skills (can assign which class can get thief skills), book type (Mage/cleric or sorcerer style spell casting system). For example, it may be possible to mod bard class so that she uses sorcerer spell casting system...
With the Shadowdancer they need to come up with a better disadvantage than nerfing backstab, since backstab is the entire point of the class. Or at least cap at x4 instead of x3 ... As it stands, they look like a crappy Assassin IMO. Shadowstep sounds pretty neat, but other than that, no thanks I'll take an Assassin.
Actually, the shadowdancer is not really about backstabbing. The original prestige class does not have any sneak attack progression; that would all come from the levels in the rogue class one might have taken to qualify for the PrC. It's all about shadows and hiding (and dancing). http://dndsrd.net/shadowdancer.html
Nice find, and some interesting kits to boot. I definitely wouldn't mind seeing the other Prestige Classes show up as foundations for further kits, Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge would both pave the way for multiclass kits, which would be nice, whilst hierophant and horizon walker would give Druids and Rangers new toys respectively.
Most interesting to me is that the Monk and Sorcerer seem to be losing some of the hardcoding, meaning we move gradually closer to actually getting those two classes into dual and multiclasses, which adds yet more choices to character creation.
The more I read this thread, the more I weep for the future of BG. I once played BG2 with a Mod that brought in 3rd Edition items and features into the game. After about two hours of play, I unloaded the mod. The rule set that BG was based on is different enough that trying to blend the two only serves to ruin both. And the rule set stands just fine on it's own. No need to 'Enhance' it with 3rd edition.
Just to be clear (a) I have no problem with 3rd edition, (b) I don't necessarily prefer 2nd edition over 3rd (or vice versa), (c) I would be just as happy to see another 3rd edition game come out. but I just don't see the need to try and force blend 2nd and 3rd editions. Neither adds anything of value that the other 'Needs'. They are separate and independent. Why mash them together?
And if the developers are trying to blend classes, the next logical step is to try and blend items and features. That will ruin BG2:EE in my eyes. Leave BG2:EE as originally intended (and BG:EE as well). If BG3 is 3rd edition, great. But don't try and meld them.
Can we submit a wishlist? I'd like Pale Master, or better - a similar, but not necromancy-school kit for mages. I loved Pale Master in NWN because it gave me the funny bone arm, but generally, I think it's a nice idea to have a mage kit that takes away a bit spellpower in favor of survivability. The mage kits now are all the same - get extra spells by dismissing one school. A kit that allows a mage to focus on self buffs and melee a bit more would be different and add new options how to play arcane casters.
I also loved the Epic Shifter prestige class for druids, but umm... it was slightly overpowered and while the tons of shapes were fun, not all were neccessary. It was a bit much to have all colors of nestlings available as the lowest forms.
@the_spyder: I think you're making quite a significant leap of logic to suggest that because Overhaul are introducing a couple of new kits (which exist in 3rd edition), they are trying to merge 3rd edition with 2nd edition in a wierd hybrid. Those kits are being added simply to give players more character creation options.
Critically, there has been a considerable amount of rules lawyering with BG:EE, from the likes of @AndreaColombo and @Jalily to ensure the game is true to 2nd edition rules, even more so than the original BG. And in fact, a number of requests have been put on the table to push that even further.
I'm all for weeping, but It may be an idea to limit it to some of the more substantive issues.
I do, however have concerns when this type of thread takes off as it has. Not to mention other threads where posters have proposed changes, revisions and 'Enhancements' covering a whole host of ills, largely geared towards how 3rd edition is/was.
The sad bit about the whole thing is that there are a lot more consumers familiar with 3rd (and 3.5) edition than there are familiar with 2nd edition. I can therefore prognosticate that players will want to 'Improve' things along the lines of what they are familiar with. And I can see the publishers at Overhaul games wanting to cater to their consumer base. Given the nature of the engine, that can only mean blending because a total conversion would be significantly more work.
Nice, I like the dragon disciple :-) Instead of adding new kits I would however suggest to rebalance the current underpowered kits first. New kits like the dwarven defender and blackguard are overpowered compared to very interesting but weak kits like beastmasters and wizard slayers.
Alright, nice. Maybe next we could get some kits for the only base class that lacks them, ie the mage? I suppose technically barbarians still lack a kit, but as I understand it they're essentially implemented as a fighter kit anyway...
But anyway, to reiterate: mage kits please! Specializing is NOT the same as having a kit, especially since all 8 varieties get the exact same advantage in a single extra spell slot per level.
if i'm being really harsh, i think that kits (any kits) in BG are over OP.
i always felt that the option to kit belongs in BG2 when PCs are experienced
it doesn't make sense that charname could be a kensai straight off the bat, but to have those 7 levels of fighter and then SPECIALISE into a certain fighting style makes much more sense.
although i'm not denying the kits are a lot fun and breaths new life into BG. really classes should only be able to kit at like 7 for fighter, 8 for thief etc
Comments
which means I'm almost fully ok with it, provided they change it to only be able to specialize, not GM (that should ONLY be available to a plain fighter, ALL kits are supposed to give it up as part of their disadvantages)
The rest are...ok...the SM Monk gives up several abilities for a few others, so it doesn't really change the dynamic much.
The dragon disciple sounds alright, depending on how much their casts per day are penalized (same as a plain wizard sounds about right since they still suck at melee).....though that Con bonus is pretty sucky...unless they have an unlisted use of the Warrior con table, you're wasting a lot of extra of Con for a tiny spec of regen that is overwritten by any item that gives regen.
The shadow dancer sounds ok, trades a lot of damage potential for the ability to BS repeatedly without items, but has heavily gimped skill progression and is no stronger then a plain thief vs non-BSable targets. The assassin at least gets poison weapon and a +1 hit/damage to help out vs those times so, actually pretty balanced.
Anyway, the majority of the new(?) kits are sadly too unimaginative for my taste. We already saw the Dwarven Defender, Dragon Disciple and Shadow Dancer more than enough in both NWN, NWN2 and to some extend also in D&D Online if I remember correctly. The Dark Moon Monk is more unique in that regard, since they only made an appearance in Icewind Dale II afaik.
I don't know about others, but I'd rather have either some of the classic PnP AD&D kits or completely new "homebrew" ones which Overhaul came up with.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/224600/#Comment_224600
I can see being stuck in a single class kit may a disadvantage. If your a player that never plays multi or duel class it is a great kit!
Maybe they're trying to come up with kits that won't be too 'why isn't this BG1 NPC this kit', but I think it would be better to drag a bunch of kits from the Complete 2e books.
It'd be cool if they asked/could get permission from the creators of things like Divine Remix and the other kits mods to integrate some of them into the game.
I actually entirely approve of this addition of kits. The more kits the better, as long as they don't explode the game in epic contradiction somehow. And although I never found any enjoyment out of NWN, it was more because of the game's interface/graphics/all that jazz than anything. So, this sounds awesome to me. My favorite thing about NWN was probably the plethora of classes and build ideas.
They should just replace Archer with Arcane Archer, speaking of which. Lol
Dwarven Defender sounds kickass. I get pretty bored of people always saying "PLAY DWARVEN FIGHTER ... BERSERKER!" and I'm like dude, no. Fighter/Cleric forever. But now I will want to try the Defender as well.
With the Shadowdancer they need to come up with a better disadvantage than nerfing backstab, since backstab is the entire point of the class. Or at least cap at x4 instead of x3 ... As it stands, they look like a crappy Assassin IMO. Shadowstep sounds pretty neat, but other than that, no thanks I'll take an Assassin.
Dragon Disciple: I don't see why everyone's hating on this. Clearly, they will have the same spells/day as a Specialist Mage. So yeah, not as good as a vanilla Sorceror, but still plenty good. I will enjoy playing this kit. The Constitution bonus actually sounds pretty sweet, I will make a Human Dragon Disciple with 18 Constitution, use the Tome, level up to level 5 and voila ... 20 Constitution you are now regenerating. The AC bonus seems really handy as well, and sure why not some Fire Resistance and Dragon's Breath. Sounds pretty legit. Some nice little perks here and there sound like a fairly even trade-off for one less spell/level.
Dark Moon Monk: LOLOLOL Chill Touch. Everything else sounds legit though! Seems very much on-par with a normal Monk, truly. You miss out on Lay on Hands, isn't that about it?
That's the stuff that would be cool to see. Arcane Archer, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, Bladesinger, and ok... I'm off on a magical tangent here, but I'd like to see some multi-class lovin'.
Sorcerer kit means possible eldritch knight, pale master etc...
But the biggest advantage seems that Dragon disciple might get unique spell book, which means that the 2DA that controls spells called clskills.2DA might be accessible to modders... This might be truly good news since that 2DA file also determins other factors such which class gets Druid/cleric/Mage spells (for example, cleric/ranger multiclass is set to get both Druid/cleric spell books), turn undead level, thief/bard skills (can assign which class can get thief skills), book type (Mage/cleric or sorcerer style spell casting system). For example, it may be possible to mod bard class so that she uses sorcerer spell casting system...
http://dndsrd.net/shadowdancer.html
Most interesting to me is that the Monk and Sorcerer seem to be losing some of the hardcoding, meaning we move gradually closer to actually getting those two classes into dual and multiclasses, which adds yet more choices to character creation.
Just to be clear (a) I have no problem with 3rd edition, (b) I don't necessarily prefer 2nd edition over 3rd (or vice versa), (c) I would be just as happy to see another 3rd edition game come out. but I just don't see the need to try and force blend 2nd and 3rd editions. Neither adds anything of value that the other 'Needs'. They are separate and independent. Why mash them together?
And if the developers are trying to blend classes, the next logical step is to try and blend items and features. That will ruin BG2:EE in my eyes. Leave BG2:EE as originally intended (and BG:EE as well). If BG3 is 3rd edition, great. But don't try and meld them.
All my own opinion.
I also loved the Epic Shifter prestige class for druids, but umm... it was slightly overpowered and while the tons of shapes were fun, not all were neccessary. It was a bit much to have all colors of nestlings available as the lowest forms.
Critically, there has been a considerable amount of rules lawyering with BG:EE, from the likes of @AndreaColombo and @Jalily to ensure the game is true to 2nd edition rules, even more so than the original BG. And in fact, a number of requests have been put on the table to push that even further.
I'm all for weeping, but It may be an idea to limit it to some of the more substantive issues.
I do, however have concerns when this type of thread takes off as it has. Not to mention other threads where posters have proposed changes, revisions and 'Enhancements' covering a whole host of ills, largely geared towards how 3rd edition is/was.
The sad bit about the whole thing is that there are a lot more consumers familiar with 3rd (and 3.5) edition than there are familiar with 2nd edition. I can therefore prognosticate that players will want to 'Improve' things along the lines of what they are familiar with. And I can see the publishers at Overhaul games wanting to cater to their consumer base. Given the nature of the engine, that can only mean blending because a total conversion would be significantly more work.
But again, I hope I am wrong.
It will ruin the game.
Some "improvements" can ruin the whole game.
Instead of adding new kits I would however suggest to rebalance the current underpowered kits first. New kits like the dwarven defender and blackguard are overpowered compared to very interesting but weak kits like beastmasters and wizard slayers.
But anyway, to reiterate: mage kits please! Specializing is NOT the same as having a kit, especially since all 8 varieties get the exact same advantage in a single extra spell slot per level.
i always felt that the option to kit belongs in BG2 when PCs are experienced
it doesn't make sense that charname could be a kensai straight off the bat, but to have those 7 levels of fighter and then SPECIALISE into a certain fighting style makes much more sense.
although i'm not denying the kits are a lot fun and breaths new life into BG. really classes should only be able to kit at like 7 for fighter, 8 for thief etc