All that fire resist... belt of antipode would make for a very interesting garment I think...
Uh?
I think he's saying you can give the belt to a Dragon Disciple because its innate Fire Resistance offsets the penalty from the belt. According to its description, the Belt of Antipode increments Cold Resistance by 100% and "Doubles all fire-based damage taken," so if you add Batalista's Passport or other effects to take no or even negative fire damage...
Unfortunately, the belt currently does the "doubling" by setting Fire Resistance to -100%. So it only does what it says if you have 0% FR. (Yes, I reported it.)
All that fire resist... belt of antipode would make for a very interesting garment I think...
Uh?
I think he's saying you can give the belt to a Dragon Disciple because its innate Fire Resistance offsets the penalty from the belt. According to its description, the Belt of Antipode increments Cold Resistance by 100% and "Doubles all fire-based damage taken," so if you add Batalista's Passport or other effects to take no or even negative fire damage...
Unfortunately, the belt currently does the "doubling" by setting Fire Resistance to -100%. So it only does what it says if you have 0% FR. (Yes, I reported it.)
Yes I got what he meant, and I was aware of the bugs you and @Fardragon mentioned I was just wondering what's the point of being able to counter the effect of the Belt of Antipode. Between the possibilities of:
- wearing it while having 100 res cold and -100% fire res (very low even when fixed) & - wearing a belt of some giant/Innertial Barrier/AC vs X and still having fire immunity + some possible cold res
I would prefer the 2nd for sure. Aside from the fact that is a lot more useful being protected from fire rather than cold.
A Sorcerer (arcane caster in general) has Protection from Fire (50%), Fire Shield: Red (50%), Protection from Elements (75%), Protection from Energy (75%), a Potion of Fire Resistance (50%), a scroll of Protection from Fire (50%), Ring of Fire Resistance (40%) and Ring of Fire Control (50%) at his disposal. So he can reach 100+ resist fire as easy as no other classes. Same goes for cold (except the rings factor).
That's why I can't see those great benefits in a Belt of Antipode by the time a Dragon Disciple hits 100 fire res (and in the whole class too)
Nonetheless, I'm really looking forward to seeing it completed!
A Sorcerer (arcane caster in general) has Protection from Fire (50%), Fire Shield: Red (50%), Protection from Elements (75%), Protection from Energy (75%),
A sorcerer would be very unwise to have that much overlap in their limited spell selection. Whilst I agree that the the belt isn't partuculary useful, the fire resistance means you don't need to bother adding spells like Protection From Fire to your selection, or you could stack for very high amounts of fireball self-healing.
Of course none would pick them all, still you can use their scrolls. I could also mention Sunfire as a good fire attack counter, if used with a good timing while wearing Amulet of Power and Robe of Vecna.
I think the most exciting the about this is that there's one we don't know about yet: Trent's twitter: "So, we've forgotten to mention the new build has five new kits, including some awesome favorites #BGEE no #PS4 required"
I actually had to go back to the first page to discover the ones people had found. I still think there are more surprises than one undiscovered kit left
Looking forward to the Monk of the Dark moon - I do hope there are some better interactions in terms of with Rassad or the existing monastery (ie can you join them instead?) I agree that the DDsorc & monk look slightly underpowered.
Looking forward to the Monk of the Dark moon - I do hope there are some better interactions in terms of with Rassad or the existing monastery (ie can you join them instead?) I agree that the DDsorc & monk look slightly underpowered.
The easiest thing to script would be to have Rasaad refuse to join a DMM CHARNAME.
I don't think the Monk looks underpowered. Compared to a standard monk they look slightly less feeble a low level, whilst still retaining most of the awsomeness of a high level monk.
As for the Sorc, we don't know how many spells they are loosing. You might view it as gaining more hp, AC, and fire resistance for simply resting slightly more often.
Once I heard about new kits I became excited a lot. WOW - I thought, it's quite surprising the devs not only try to fix problems but continually add some new content. The introducing of Baeloth made me think we won't get anything else. To get the news about new kits was very sweet.
Later I read several times their descriptions tring to decide whether these kits suit my playing style. I usually play a stealth type of character and was very glad we'll have a newbie in this direction.
At the first glance a Shadowdancer seemed intriguing to me. An ability to hide in shadows during the fight without using potions, rings and spells is very attractive.
But when I look at the kit description once more I realise it's not SO great. Only 30 starting points seem odd especially when the equally specialized assasin get 40.
No progress in backstab and the lack of unique abilities after the 9th level is very strange! This level is reachable in BG1 and it comes to the situation where in BG2 a Shadowdancer won't get anything new. It's a little bit disappointing - nothing new in his tactics till TOB.
It's especially hard to take when you look at the monk class and find out how it improves constanly gaining new abilities and making your gameplay more versatile.
Maybe this situation must make you think you should dual a Shadowdancer at the 9th level. Well, not a bad idea but still... At this level he can only have 150 points in Move Silently (30 + 8*15 and a human get no racial bonuses). 150 points is not enough to guarantee the success in using the main ability of this kit yet. And to get to 200 points you should wait another 4 levels. So, a good result of the dual-classing can be achieved at the 13th level with 660000 EXP. A good - not optimal - taking into account the penalties of wearing armor and fighting in the light.
But not many people like to dual-class and (or) play a human. I support this point of view because for a big amount of time you can't use all that was achieved before. It can interrupt the pleasure of gameplay.
But still, maybe this kit is an exception - knowing all its description at the start you take for granted that this character must either be dualled in BG2 or continue till TOB without major changes and without any new abilities.
So I'm a bit confused what to think about this kit.
We don't know that the descriptions in the OP represent the final versions of the class - in fact we have reason to think they do not. The Shadowdancer could quite easily be fixed by giving them +15% Hide in Shadows at first level. Although I would be in favour of giving them normal backstab progression but limiting them to daggers, shortswords, clubs, darts and slings (even when dual classed). Many kits don't gain new abilities after a certain level is reached, so it's not unusual in that regard. You still gain thief HLAs, and there are huge advantages to being an elf or halfling that can outweight dualing to fighter at 9.
I think a decision to restrict them using katanas and scimitars would be unpopular. So many players like easter weapons in general and CF in particular.
Yes, many kits don't gain new abilities after a certain level is reached BUT not the 9th level - not long after the very start of BG2. It's 2970000 EXP and 15 levels between max abilities for a Shadowdancer and thief HLAs. So it's very unusual in that regard.
And being an elf or a halfling is not so important for a Shadowdancer (compared with other thieves) - due to a little amount of points per level any bonuses in other abilities such as PP, OL, FT, DI, ST are completely irrelevant. They (even plus bonuses to THACO for bows, swords - for elves - and slings - for halflings) can not outweight dualing.
I think a decision to restrict them using katanas and scimitars would be unpopular. So many players like easter weapons in general and CF in particular.
So is restricting them to x3 backstab, but one or the other is nessassary to avoid them being very overpowered. (staves and longswords have to be out as well).
Yes, many kits don't gain new abilities after a certain level is reached BUT not the 9th level - not long after the very start of BG2. It's 2970000 EXP and 15 levels between max abilities for a Shadowdancer and thief HLAs. So it's very unusual in that regard.
Fighters/Berserkers don't gain much in new abilities. You can argue 13 for the second +1/2 an attack. Swashbucklers don't gain new abilities (existing abilities improve, but then so does the Shadowdancer's ability to HIPS).
And being an elf or a halfling is not so important for a Shadowdancer (compared with other thieves) - due to a little amount of points per level any bonuses in other abilities such as PP, OL, FT, DI, ST are completely irrelevant. They (even plus bonuses to THACO for bows, swords - for elves - and slings - for halflings) can not outweight dualing.
It's the racial bonuses to hide and move silently that are important, along with 19 dex at the start. With few skill points gained by leveling, it makes what you start with much more important. A human won't be able to HIPS effectively until quite high level. Elves and halfings will be able to do it pretty much from level 1.
Sure, in ToB, a human shadowdancer 9/fighter will be superior to a elf pure shadowdancer (but inferior to a stright thief), but in BG1, the elf will be superior. In the late game, with invisiblity flying around everywhere, HIPS is obsolete anyway.
So, the power of a Shadowdancer does not follow from your answer. Swashbucklers' bonuses are stronger and +1/2 APR (for fighters) is obviously more important than "+ several uses of Shadowstep" per day. Every thief (even multi-classed) has more and more numbers in his abilities so a Shadowdancer is nothing special here (I mean, the bigger number of MS with levels cannot be seen as his pro). The difference between 19 dex (that a human can have with the Tome) and 20 dex in the part of MS and HS is very little (only +3 in each). The racial bonuses to MS and HS (even +40 points from halflings) can not be seen equal to the abilities dualclassing gives (greater THACO, damage and warrior HLAs or ability to cast spells and wizard HLAs).
So what you are saying is Shadowdancers suck (if implemented as in the OP). I know, I already said that.
But if you are going to be one, you better be an elf or halfing, because they are the only ones that will get any use out of HIPS before cheep invisiblity makes it obsolete.
But from my point of view the better way to overcome it (on a long BG:EE - BG2:EE run) is to dual-class them.
And for people who don't like dual-classed characters (myself included) it's better not to use them at all and choose other thief kits (for example, a bounty-hunter or an assasin) and for these other thief kits use the races that give bonuses. Or you can be a Stalker. Or you can be a multi-class character, one part of whom is a thief.
The point I want to make is this kit (if implemented as in the OP) has no advantages at all if compared with what is already in the game.
Yeah, it needs fixing, and I have suggested some ways of fixing it.
But currently, the main reason for not multiclassing is lack of skill points. At level 9 a human shadowdancer would only be able to HIPS about 80% of the time (40% in full Sun). You could make up the difference with gear, but then you could play a regular thief and make up the difference with a ring of invisiblity.
Yeah, it needs fixing, and I have suggested some ways of fixing it.
But currently, the main reason for not multiclassing is lack of skill points. At level 9 a human shadowdancer would only be able to HIPS about 80% of the time (40% in full Sun). You could make up the difference with gear, but then you could play a regular thief and make up the difference with a ring of invisiblity.
A plain theif would need a ton of rings or a ton of potions to make up for the HIPS. HIPS could be used defensively to stop spell targeting, etc. and if it works like the current hide in shadows it could be used repeatedly (limited the usefulness of true sight). Anyone who has played against the Weimer mod where you face the mage who you get the staff of the magi from and had to put up with him repeatedly going invisible gets a sense of this as a defensive power and it is pretty huge.
Or, the thief could simply use the staff of the magi (UAI). The trouble with the implementation in the OP is you wouln't have enough skill points to actually use HIP reliably until around level 10+ (depending on race and gear), by which time you can easily afford a ton of potions.
Or, the thief could simply use the staff of the magi (UAI). The trouble with the implementation in the OP is you wouln't have enough skill points to actually use HIP reliably until around level 10+ (depending on race and gear), by which time you can easily afford a ton of potions.
There just aren't that many potions available if you are going to use them every time a mage starts casting a spell. A mage or a bard could use the staff of the magi after they hit 3,000,000 XP but there is a pretty big gap between 160,000 XP and 3,000,000 XP (basically the difference between late BG1 and TOB).
Also, I would feel much, much less cheap using a Shadowdancer to do this than using the Staff of the Magi (which I frankly hope is nerfed for BG2:EE).
The ring of invisibilty can be recharged by selling and buying back as often as you like.
The ring is usable once per day unless we are thinking of different rings, not every round like hide in shadows currently works. So to replicate the HIPS ability, you would need a lot of rings and/or potions and even then the once per round limitation is actually stricter than the hide in shadows mechanic (which lets you go invisible immediately after breaking invisibility if the conditions are appropriate - such as by killing the only enemy in your line of sight with a backstab or by running around a corner with the boots of speed). If HIPS works just like hide in shadows except that you can do it while people are watching you then it is much more versatile than a ring or potion.
Or get a companion to cast one of the many forms of invisiblity on you, or play a mage/thief etc etc. The fact is, by the time you have enough skill points for HIPS to work reliably, invisiblity is EVERYWHERE and the regular thief backstabs are x4/x5 rather than x3. And by that level the regular thief will be reliably able to find traps, open locks, pick pockets or set traps as well.
Comments
Unfortunately, the belt currently does the "doubling" by setting Fire Resistance to -100%. So it only does what it says if you have 0% FR. (Yes, I reported it.)
I was just wondering what's the point of being able to counter the effect of the Belt of Antipode.
Between the possibilities of:
- wearing it while having 100 res cold and -100% fire res (very low even when fixed)
&
- wearing a belt of some giant/Innertial Barrier/AC vs X and still having fire immunity + some possible cold res
I would prefer the 2nd for sure.
Aside from the fact that is a lot more useful being protected from fire rather than cold.
A Sorcerer (arcane caster in general) has Protection from Fire (50%), Fire Shield: Red (50%), Protection from Elements (75%), Protection from Energy (75%), a Potion of Fire Resistance (50%), a scroll of Protection from Fire (50%), Ring of Fire Resistance (40%) and Ring of Fire Control (50%) at his disposal.
So he can reach 100+ resist fire as easy as no other classes.
Same goes for cold (except the rings factor).
That's why I can't see those great benefits in a Belt of Antipode by the time a Dragon Disciple hits 100 fire res (and in the whole class too)
Nonetheless, I'm really looking forward to seeing it completed!
I could also mention Sunfire as a good fire attack counter, if used with a good timing while wearing Amulet of Power and Robe of Vecna.
Trent's twitter:
"So, we've forgotten to mention the new build has five new kits, including some awesome favorites #BGEE no #PS4 required"
I don't think the Monk looks underpowered. Compared to a standard monk they look slightly less feeble a low level, whilst still retaining most of the awsomeness of a high level monk.
As for the Sorc, we don't know how many spells they are loosing. You might view it as gaining more hp, AC, and fire resistance for simply resting slightly more often.
Later I read several times their descriptions tring to decide whether these kits suit my playing style. I usually play a stealth type of character and was very glad we'll have a newbie in this direction.
At the first glance a Shadowdancer seemed intriguing to me. An ability to hide in shadows during the fight without using potions, rings and spells is very attractive.
But when I look at the kit description once more I realise it's not SO great. Only 30 starting points seem odd especially when the equally specialized assasin get 40.
No progress in backstab and the lack of unique abilities after the 9th level is very strange! This level is reachable in BG1 and it comes to the situation where in BG2 a Shadowdancer won't get anything new. It's a little bit disappointing - nothing new in his tactics till TOB.
It's especially hard to take when you look at the monk class and find out how it improves constanly gaining new abilities and making your gameplay more versatile.
Maybe this situation must make you think you should dual a Shadowdancer at the 9th level. Well, not a bad idea but still... At this level he can only have 150 points in Move Silently (30 + 8*15 and a human get no racial bonuses). 150 points is not enough to guarantee the success in using the main ability of this kit yet. And to get to 200 points you should wait another 4 levels. So, a good result of the dual-classing can be achieved at the 13th level with 660000 EXP. A good - not optimal - taking into account the penalties of wearing armor and fighting in the light.
But not many people like to dual-class and (or) play a human. I support this point of view because for a big amount of time you can't use all that was achieved before. It can interrupt the pleasure of gameplay.
But still, maybe this kit is an exception - knowing all its description at the start you take for granted that this character must either be dualled in BG2 or continue till TOB without major changes and without any new abilities.
So I'm a bit confused what to think about this kit.
Yes, many kits don't gain new abilities after a certain level is reached BUT not the 9th level - not long after the very start of BG2. It's 2970000 EXP and 15 levels between max abilities for a Shadowdancer and thief HLAs. So it's very unusual in that regard.
And being an elf or a halfling is not so important for a Shadowdancer (compared with other thieves) - due to a little amount of points per level any bonuses in other abilities such as PP, OL, FT, DI, ST are completely irrelevant. They (even plus bonuses to THACO for bows, swords - for elves - and slings - for halflings) can not outweight dualing.
Sure, in ToB, a human shadowdancer 9/fighter will be superior to a elf pure shadowdancer (but inferior to a stright thief), but in BG1, the elf will be superior. In the late game, with invisiblity flying around everywhere, HIPS is obsolete anyway.
But if you are going to be one, you better be an elf or halfing, because they are the only ones that will get any use out of HIPS before cheep invisiblity makes it obsolete.
But from my point of view the better way to overcome it (on a long BG:EE - BG2:EE run) is to dual-class them.
And for people who don't like dual-classed characters (myself included) it's better not to use them at all and choose other thief kits (for example, a bounty-hunter or an assasin) and for these other thief kits use the races that give bonuses. Or you can be a Stalker. Or you can be a multi-class character, one part of whom is a thief.
The point I want to make is this kit (if implemented as in the OP) has no advantages at all if compared with what is already in the game.
But currently, the main reason for not multiclassing is lack of skill points. At level 9 a human shadowdancer would only be able to HIPS about 80% of the time (40% in full Sun). You could make up the difference with gear, but then you could play a regular thief and make up the difference with a ring of invisiblity.
Also, I would feel much, much less cheap using a Shadowdancer to do this than using the Staff of the Magi (which I frankly hope is nerfed for BG2:EE).
There is no comparison at all.