if i'm being really harsh, i think that kits (any kits) in BG are over OP.
i always felt that the option to kit belongs in BG2 when PCs are experienced
it doesn't make sense that charname could be a kensai straight off the bat, but to have those 7 levels of fighter and then SPECIALISE into a certain fighting style makes much more sense.
although i'm not denying the kits are a lot fun and breaths new life into BG. really classes should only be able to kit at like 7 for fighter, 8 for thief etc
It makes more sense that the fighter spontaneously forgets how to use armour after months of experience than that their particular fighting style never led to them learning how in the first place? Or that the Swashbuckler spontaneously forgets how to backstab? Or the Assassin instantly loses 70 skill points when they hit level 8?
I'm not certain you've thought this all the way through.
In BG2 the kits I had most fun with are classes that have fun advantages but also some disadvantages compared to their base class; the kensai (without dualclassing!), wizard slayer, sorcerer, undead hunter and shapeshifter being my favourite classes. I didn't like the cleric kits because they don't have disadvantages, and I just don't like the monk kit (a pity Rasaad is a monk). Although I love BG:EE (already finished the game 2 times and I'm finishing my third run; and the Black Pits are a fun addition to the game) I don't like the Blackguard and Dwarven Defender kits because they are not balanced; they have huge advantages compared to their base class but no disadvantages; being evil or dwarven is no big disadvantage in my opinion. Dragon disciples and shadowdancers on the other hand could be very interesting! I'm looking forward to see those classes being playable in BG:EE or BG2:EE.
Overhaul is doing a great job already, but it could be even a little bit better if they balance the weaker classes (that makes the classes many of us never play already "new" and interesting to play) and add more balance to future kits.
It makes more sense that the fighter spontaneously forgets how to use armour after months of experience than that their particular fighting style never led to them learning how in the first place? Or that the Swashbuckler spontaneously forgets how to backstab? Or the Assassin instantly loses 70 skill points when they hit level 8?
I'm not certain you've thought this all the way through.
@pantalion well no it's because they sacrifice one element to enhance another one. they don't "forget" they simply either no longer continue to train or to enhance one ability they sacrifice another or they have a change in philosophy.
for example
berserker: why berserk at range? kensai: if i stop wearing helmets the impair my vision or armour that slows me down, i can hit harder and more accurately ws: by starting this training regime that gives me magic resistance i'm unable to wear magical armour
archer: i'm going to train way more with my bow to become awesome, so i'll not practice as much with melee weapons, which become rusty beastmaster: my time in the wilds have made me one with the animals and i've realised that mining the earth for metals is wrong stalker: to stalk i have to wear lighter armour
avenger: my new discipline of learning mage spells and extra shape forms have left my body weaker
and so on and so forth
obviously just my opinion. i guess it's how you look at it. i can see both arguments
Remember guys these aren't official additions and may never be. @mjs taking 7 or 8 class levels then taking another prestige class is a 3e thing. D&d agreed that was better than kits and dual and multiclass of 2e. The 2e system is a fundamentally different set of rules and more limited options
The good news is all of the vanilla classes are still available right? If playing a kit isn't fun for you, don't do it. Personally right now I'm rather enjoying my archer kit, cause that's exactly how I picture an elf ranger.
The good news is all of the vanilla classes are still available right? If playing a kit isn't fun for you, don't do it. Personally right now I'm rather enjoying my archer kit, cause that's exactly how I picture an elf ranger.
Even with the ranged weapon APR nerfs in the current patch? This is probably a bug, though...
@Oxford_Guy - yeah the bug is slightly annoying, and I just so happened to roll that archer right before the patch so I was sad to see the APR drop. However, it's not game breaking for me, I do after all have a 6 man team, so it's not as impacting as if I were doing it solo or small group. Mostly I just love the idea of an elf that is mean with a bow and can sneak around - I would go Thief even if they weren't restricted to shortbows, and could probably even do fighter/thief and get a similar experience, but Elven Archer is what I wanted, so it's what I rolled. I guess the point of my previous post was that if people find that kits are "game breaking" and "overpowered" or make the game "not fun" then they can choose not to play that kit. I do think argument that any kits in BG1 should integrate well into the overall game play and be a viable/enjoyable option for someone interested in playing that archetype is a valid argument (notice my evasion of the buzz word "balanced"), but my post was mostly targeted at this comment:
if i'm being really harsh, i think that kits (any kits) in BG are over OP.
i always felt that the option to kit belongs in BG2 when PCs are experienced
it doesn't make sense that charname could be a kensai straight off the bat, but to have those 7 levels of fighter and then SPECIALISE into a certain fighting style makes much more sense.
although i'm not denying the kits are a lot fun and breaths new life into BG. really classes should only be able to kit at like 7 for fighter, 8 for thief etc
Where @mjs was stating that kits don't belong in BG1 because they are OP. My solution to that problem is to not play a kit in BG1, the original classes are still available.
The Defender is a pathetic class. You want Overpowered...look at the Berserker. No disadvantages at all, massive list of immunities, no downsides.
Where as the proper berserker would be, No ranged weapons (not even hurled ones), cannot go beyond specialization (Under GM rules, going beyond specialization is a single class, non-kitted fighter exclusive perk), and their rage would give +1 hit, +3 damage, +5 temp HP, immunity to Charm person, Sleep, Command, Scare (not fear in general), Ray of enfeeblement, symbol spells. +4 save bonus vs, hold, confusion, charm monster/dire charm, blindness. Only partial protection to the Fear, Horror, and Emotion:Fear spells, on a failed save ends the rage immediately, but prevents the fear effect. And in addition to being winded when a rage ends, they have a 10% chance per rage round of going truly berserk and attacking friend and foe alike for 3 rounds, they can't benefit from any magical healing until the rage ends, but are also immune to effects causing instant death (only applies to things like Finger of Death or Death spell, not disintegrate or Flesh to stone), and cannot see their actual health total while enraged.
And GM and Specialization needs some reworking.
Going above Specialization is a single class, un-kitted fighter exclusive perk. Taking a fighter kit restricts you to only becoming specialized, in addition to other disadvantages. Dual-classing from a fighter, can't specialize further at all, since they aren't progressing as a fighter anymore and specialization is a part of their progression. Dual-classing INTO a fighter, can only become specialized, since they're not single class. Only basic Rangers and Paladins can specialize. Paladin and Ranger kits are only able to become proficient, in addition to other disadvantages.
The only kit I've found that bends that rule is the fighter's archer kit (which is also usable by Rangers), which can achieve Mastery (***) in Ranged weapons (for both the fighter and ranger version), gains their level based and specialization bonus attacks to Bows (which bows normally don't get), and gains +1 hit/damage per 4 levels, with bows only. Gains 1 bonus attack when using bows, and can gain an additional attack by rooting themselves in position for 3 rounds. And reduces the penalty for making called shots by -1 for every 4 levels. On the other hand, they can only become proficient in melee weapons, lose their str bonus to hit entirely, they have a -1 hit penalty to attacks made with melee weapons, cannot benefit from any extra attacks normally gained by levels with melee weapons, and Elves lose their racial benefit with long/short swords, but gain an additional +1 hit to longbows.
The PnP Kensai sort of does as well...you choose 1 type of Sword at creation, which you place 2 of your starting prof points in, and then you get a free 3rd point (Mastery) in that weapon...and that's it, any further points can only be spent to specialize (**). And technically all your kit abilities, including your AC bonus require you to wield that Mastered weapon type in your main-hand. (they can technically wear body armor, but it denies their class abilities while doing so) (And yes, their only restriction is body armor and non-hurled ranged weapons. They can use helms, shields, or bracers just fine, if they want)
The shadowdancer is alright...they can repeatedly backstab without using items or having to hit and fade, so it's pretty balanced to nerf the hell out their damage. Though unlike the assassin, they're a VERY gimp'd thief when fighting things that can't be backstabbed.
The good news is all of the vanilla classes are still available right? If playing a kit isn't fun for you, don't do it. Personally right now I'm rather enjoying my archer kit, cause that's exactly how I picture an elf ranger.
So long as they don't tweak the difficulty or monsters/encounters in any way to 'Balance' for the kits, this is fine.
I don't get the monk class. Isn't the whole point in being a monk to fight with your fists? But the magical weapon treatment seems to be gained way too late. You will be forced to use weapons if you want the character to contribute to anything.
Very very OP for the BG1 setting. Like arcane archer or eldrich knight or trickster. It will ruin the game.
They would need low level adjustments like other BG II kits. The main thing I hope to come out of this is a lot of unhardcoding. One of the things I really like with NWN2 is the huge choice of classes. So I would really welcome the possibility of making a larger selection easier to achieve.
Am I correct when I see the Shadow Dancer has reduced backstab damage to make up for the being able to repeat sneak attack? Makes me debate whether I like Shadow Dancer more or Stalker more...
Stalker: - has a higher THAC0 - can specialize in weapons/styles, and has a broader weapon selection - has an 18/something strength (sure SD could get 19 with tome as my Stalker did eventually, but the early bonuses are nice) - has more hit points (not really relevant if you are truly ninja-ing everything, but spells can bring you down quickly if timed correctly) - can use boots of speed to run in and out of rooms backstabbing constantly - Charm Animal/Spells way later (I think the Charm Animal is useless, but the few extra healing spells can be useful)
Shadow Dancer - can use other thief skills (always useful to have CHARNAME with thief skills so if you don't particularly like any of the game's current thieves you can fill your slots with other characters). - can make use of Shadow Armor and some other "Thief-only" items (presumably--also, Shadow Armor is not only effective but looks badass) - in BG2 can get the HLA "Use any Item", which has some potential (irrelevant in BGEE) - doesn't require invisibility potions/spells, or cheesy boots of speed strategy to repeat backstab - lower hit points don't really matter because of constant hiding - crazy teleporting!! and minor bonus to saves
I can see using both, and I would certainly try out a Shadow Dancer.
Dwarven Defender: I will DEFINITELY try this one out. I was wondering what class to run through the game as a dwarf with. And because I see no Alignment restriction, I might just color him grey and call him a Duergar (ah if only).
Dragon Disciple: Looks kind of cool. Specifics on how many less spells than a usual sorcerer would be useful. I probably wouldn't play one as CHARNAME, but I might use one in the Black Pits or in a multiplayer game.
Dark Moon Monk: Finally! I know the specifics of what those annoying monks in Rasaad's quest can do! I always saw them using random spells and wasn't quite sure about how they were doing it...It looks like they lose the immunity to poison, but they get Vamp touch which IMO makes up for that loss (since Monks get the immunity to poison after all of those bandits and wyverns). I would definitely play one of these, so I'll hold off on the evil monk that I made just in case (I only got to FAI with him).
The Shadowdancer would be pretty insane -- basically a kit that lets you play a backstabbing character with the Staff of the Magi. Anyone who has used the "click on the staff" knows it can be abused to make the character nearly invulnerable since even spells like true sight can be almost instantly rendered meaningless by pausing and reclicking into shadows. That means anyone who is casting a spell at the character loses the spell if it doesn't finish before you disappear (AOE not focused on the character are unaffected), no one can attack you, etc. Just a defensive powerhouse and a class that would be very effective in melee (backstab and instantly fad to black so there is no counterattack).
I hope if they do the Shadowdancer kit that they limit you to fading into shadows only once per round rather than "as often as you want" as the hide in shadows mechanic currently works.
Hmmm. Dark Moon Monks, if I'm reading correctly, trade Lay on Hands and Poison Immunity for Blind, Blur, Chill Touch and Vampiric Touch. A net gain, methinks. Particularly since Poison Immunity isn't available to monks in BGEE, where the nastiest poisons seem to exist. I like it. Nice to see Evil Monks getting love.
Dragon Disciple looks good. Bunch of free AC, better HD. Natural Fire Immunity is a nice draw. I wouldn't mind trading 1-2 spells per day for that.
Dwarven Defenders look hot too. I'd still play one, even if they took Grandmastery away.
@Kushu I think they can still get grandmastery in Axes and Warhammers. Axes aren't too shabby, especially if you want a decent throwing weapon once you hit BG2 as there are a few returning ones IIRC, and Warhammers such as the Crom Faeyr are excellent in BG2 as well. Neither are terrible in BGEE, so it isn't a huge penalty.
@toanwrath: I meant that I wouldn't be upset if Overhaul removed the Dwarven Defender's ability to Grandmaster Axes and Warhammers. My apologies for being unclear.
Some people suggested that it's overpowering, and they feel the rules are supposed to restrict Grandmaster to only single-class, kit-less fighters.
Personally, I don't lean one way or the other. I can see the the affinity between dwarves axes and hammers leading to them being grandmasterable. But if Grandmaster was removed from DDs, I wouldn't be sad. Warhammers have Ashideena in BG1, which can carry you through a lot. Then in BG2, Axes take off. Stonefire, Frostreaver and Azuredge are all perfectly solid weapons and fairly easy to get. Endgame, of course, brings Crom Faeyr.
I don't think removing Grandmaster would underpower DDs. That stance is still very sexy and their weapon choice competitive.
For those who believe dwarves defender should not be given grand mastery... You can simply mod the game :-) Reduce max proficiency for any weapon to two... It isn't that hard..
Somehow I get the feeling that the shadowdancer is a sign of a new BG2:EE thief (that won't suck) being made. Interesting that the shadowdancer isn't limited to a specific alignment and can even be neutral/chaotic good (then again the assassin didn't restrict you from this so I shouldn't be surprised). Alternatively, it could also be a human since the shadowdancer seems like a good class to dual class from too. Just dual at whatever level a thief maxes out their early usefulness, then go into whatever class you want your teleporting backstabbing skills to augment.
Dual-ling to Cleric will really make that "harm" spell deadly with the teleporting and disappearing going on. Dual-ling to mage just means doing what Imoen can do except slightly better and having 2 instant disappearing backstabbers (1 shadowdancer and 1 mage with staff of the magi). Dual-ling to fighter just means you have a fighter with some teleportation and instant hiding which may be useful against dragons since they blow you back with their wing buffet (the final ToB boss could also do this to if I remember correctly). Not dual-ling simply means you have a teleporting thief popping out of nowhere whacking people on the head. And considering how it's not until 3 quarters through shadows of amn that enemies finally start seeing through invisibility on a regular basis...yeah. Though I do agree that if it can see you and/or can't be backstabbed, then your in trouble but that's what other NPCs are for, and dual classing.
This will probably be the most overpowerd class to use in the black pits. "Things went quite swimmingly until some upstarts tricked me into facing them in battle. They cheated of course".
Yes, the npc-possibilities are very interesting, too. Just imagine the banters a Dark Moon Monk/Sun Soul Monk would have with Rasaad - maybe you can even convert him now (i tried hard, but failed, even with the assistance of Viconia :P).
And an evil human Shadowdancer for BG2 would definitely be interesting (as an evil thief for bg2 is semi-confirmed this kit could be a fitting, interesting option) If there won't be an NPC-Shadowdancer then my PC will be one. The class sounds just very interesting.
FIrst, I thought, it takes away a bit of excitement and the possibility for Overhaul to introduce the kits as they'd like by revealing this info, but now it seems like there's a lot of valuable feedback in here. So I'm glad this info leaked out because the released dlc could try to use some ideas of this thread. (Some other games have something like a free beta-test for patches and dlc's - maybe it would be interesting to have the option to hear feedback before the release of the patch on a regular basis, so some final tweaks can be made?)
So, then i have an idea of my own: It would be great if along with the un-hardcoding of monk/sorcerer-kitability, one could multi- and dual-class them (bards too, please). Maybe leave this feature open for mods, as i imagine a monk/sorcerer to be a bit of a powergamer's dream (which makes it an interesting option for Dark-Moon-Monk-NPC's). Imo, everything that seems too broken for a maxed-out PC is interesting for NPC's. I really like seeing NPC's that break the rules by having illegal stats, illegal race/class-combinations or just some feats that PCs can't access.
Monk/sorcerer would be power gamers' wet dream... With TOB cap max level would be monk 25/sorcerer 20. Sorcerer spell progression stops after level 20 (both spells per day and know spells) so no loss really... Sorcerer still get to choose 7 HLAs... Plenty...
Monk at level 25 would get 11 HLAs, 75% magic resistance, +4 fist with 3 attacks, -2 base AC (no need for AC3 braces), -8 AC bonus against missile, thac0 of 0, moves fast and immune to slow...
Several files need to be edited and either find trap or stealth has to go... But I also want to edit monk skill so that monks can detect illusion (uses find trap modal action) but such mod requires locked skills.2da file...
Looking through the kit books for 2nd Edition...maybe some 3rd Edition prestige classes, made into kits, would be sort of fun! After all, all the kit books already had some instructions on making new kits. We could also get at least one race-exclusive per race. Or some more Cleric kits, maybe some expanded multi-class and dual-class options...
@Scary_wizard: I support new kits. Particularly Cleric Kits that introduce some kind of trade-off, instead of being straight out upgrades to vanilla cleric. I've got lots of ideas brewing in my noggin.
I've always been a proponent of Cleric spell lists (and abilities) accurately reflecting their Deity and Ethos. If something like that were implemented, I'd actually like that. It would make it a (slightly) more RP situation without being too onerous.
Comments
I'm not certain you've thought this all the way through.
and The skill points probably wouldn't be 'Lost', but that there isn't as much time focusing on those (so you don't get MORE) going forward.
Although I love BG:EE (already finished the game 2 times and I'm finishing my third run; and the Black Pits are a fun addition to the game) I don't like the Blackguard and Dwarven Defender kits because they are not balanced; they have huge advantages compared to their base class but no disadvantages; being evil or dwarven is no big disadvantage in my opinion.
Dragon disciples and shadowdancers on the other hand could be very interesting! I'm looking forward to see those classes being playable in BG:EE or BG2:EE.
Overhaul is doing a great job already, but it could be even a little bit better if they balance the weaker classes (that makes the classes many of us never play already "new" and interesting to play) and add more balance to future kits.
for example
berserker: why berserk at range?
kensai: if i stop wearing helmets the impair my vision or armour that slows me down, i can hit harder and more accurately
ws: by starting this training regime that gives me magic resistance i'm unable to wear magical armour
archer: i'm going to train way more with my bow to become awesome, so i'll not practice as much with melee weapons, which become rusty
beastmaster: my time in the wilds have made me one with the animals and i've realised that mining the earth for metals is wrong
stalker: to stalk i have to wear lighter armour
avenger: my new discipline of learning mage spells and extra shape forms have left my body weaker
and so on and so forth
obviously just my opinion. i guess it's how you look at it. i can see both arguments
i just prefer mine
Where as the proper berserker would be, No ranged weapons (not even hurled ones), cannot go beyond specialization (Under GM rules, going beyond specialization is a single class, non-kitted fighter exclusive perk), and their rage would give +1 hit, +3 damage, +5 temp HP, immunity to Charm person, Sleep, Command, Scare (not fear in general), Ray of enfeeblement, symbol spells. +4 save bonus vs, hold, confusion, charm monster/dire charm, blindness. Only partial protection to the Fear, Horror, and Emotion:Fear spells, on a failed save ends the rage immediately, but prevents the fear effect. And in addition to being winded when a rage ends, they have a 10% chance per rage round of going truly berserk and attacking friend and foe alike for 3 rounds, they can't benefit from any magical healing until the rage ends, but are also immune to effects causing instant death (only applies to things like Finger of Death or Death spell, not disintegrate or Flesh to stone), and cannot see their actual health total while enraged.
And GM and Specialization needs some reworking.
Going above Specialization is a single class, un-kitted fighter exclusive perk. Taking a fighter kit restricts you to only becoming specialized, in addition to other disadvantages. Dual-classing from a fighter, can't specialize further at all, since they aren't progressing as a fighter anymore and specialization is a part of their progression. Dual-classing INTO a fighter, can only become specialized, since they're not single class. Only basic Rangers and Paladins can specialize. Paladin and Ranger kits are only able to become proficient, in addition to other disadvantages.
The only kit I've found that bends that rule is the fighter's archer kit (which is also usable by Rangers), which can achieve Mastery (***) in Ranged weapons (for both the fighter and ranger version), gains their level based and specialization bonus attacks to Bows (which bows normally don't get), and gains +1 hit/damage per 4 levels, with bows only. Gains 1 bonus attack when using bows, and can gain an additional attack by rooting themselves in position for 3 rounds. And reduces the penalty for making called shots by -1 for every 4 levels. On the other hand, they can only become proficient in melee weapons, lose their str bonus to hit entirely, they have a -1 hit penalty to attacks made with melee weapons, cannot benefit from any extra attacks normally gained by levels with melee weapons, and Elves lose their racial benefit with long/short swords, but gain an additional +1 hit to longbows.
The PnP Kensai sort of does as well...you choose 1 type of Sword at creation, which you place 2 of your starting prof points in, and then you get a free 3rd point (Mastery) in that weapon...and that's it, any further points can only be spent to specialize (**). And technically all your kit abilities, including your AC bonus require you to wield that Mastered weapon type in your main-hand. (they can technically wear body armor, but it denies their class abilities while doing so) (And yes, their only restriction is body armor and non-hurled ranged weapons. They can use helms, shields, or bracers just fine, if they want)
The shadowdancer is alright...they can repeatedly backstab without using items or having to hit and fade, so it's pretty balanced to nerf the hell out their damage. Though unlike the assassin, they're a VERY gimp'd thief when fighting things that can't be backstabbed.
But the magical weapon treatment seems to be gained way too late. You will be forced to use weapons if you want the character to contribute to anything.
Stalker:
- has a higher THAC0
- can specialize in weapons/styles, and has a broader weapon selection
- has an 18/something strength (sure SD could get 19 with tome as my Stalker did eventually, but the early bonuses are nice)
- has more hit points (not really relevant if you are truly ninja-ing everything, but spells can bring you down quickly if timed correctly)
- can use boots of speed to run in and out of rooms backstabbing constantly
- Charm Animal/Spells way later (I think the Charm Animal is useless, but the few extra healing spells can be useful)
Shadow Dancer
- can use other thief skills (always useful to have CHARNAME with thief skills so if you don't particularly like any of the game's current thieves you can fill your slots with other characters).
- can make use of Shadow Armor and some other "Thief-only" items (presumably--also, Shadow Armor is not only effective but looks badass)
- in BG2 can get the HLA "Use any Item", which has some potential (irrelevant in BGEE)
- doesn't require invisibility potions/spells, or cheesy boots of speed strategy to repeat backstab
- lower hit points don't really matter because of constant hiding
- crazy teleporting!! and minor bonus to saves
I can see using both, and I would certainly try out a Shadow Dancer.
Dwarven Defender: I will DEFINITELY try this one out. I was wondering what class to run through the game as a dwarf with. And because I see no Alignment restriction, I might just color him grey and call him a Duergar (ah if only).
Dragon Disciple: Looks kind of cool. Specifics on how many less spells than a usual sorcerer would be useful. I probably wouldn't play one as CHARNAME, but I might use one in the Black Pits or in a multiplayer game.
Dark Moon Monk: Finally! I know the specifics of what those annoying monks in Rasaad's quest can do! I always saw them using random spells and wasn't quite sure about how they were doing it...It looks like they lose the immunity to poison, but they get Vamp touch which IMO makes up for that loss (since Monks get the immunity to poison after all of those bandits and wyverns). I would definitely play one of these, so I'll hold off on the evil monk that I made just in case (I only got to FAI with him).
I hope if they do the Shadowdancer kit that they limit you to fading into shadows only once per round rather than "as often as you want" as the hide in shadows mechanic currently works.
Dragon Disciple looks good. Bunch of free AC, better HD. Natural Fire Immunity is a nice draw. I wouldn't mind trading 1-2 spells per day for that.
Dwarven Defenders look hot too. I'd still play one, even if they took Grandmastery away.
Can't wait to see what else they come up with.
I think they can still get grandmastery in Axes and Warhammers. Axes aren't too shabby, especially if you want a decent throwing weapon once you hit BG2 as there are a few returning ones IIRC, and Warhammers such as the Crom Faeyr are excellent in BG2 as well. Neither are terrible in BGEE, so it isn't a huge penalty.
dualling hammers and axes seems the way forward with dwarven defenders i'd imagine
Some people suggested that it's overpowering, and they feel the rules are supposed to restrict Grandmaster to only single-class, kit-less fighters.
Personally, I don't lean one way or the other. I can see the the affinity between dwarves axes and hammers leading to them being grandmasterable. But if Grandmaster was removed from DDs, I wouldn't be sad. Warhammers have Ashideena in BG1, which can carry you through a lot. Then in BG2, Axes take off. Stonefire, Frostreaver and Azuredge are all perfectly solid weapons and fairly easy to get.
Endgame, of course, brings Crom Faeyr.
I don't think removing Grandmaster would underpower DDs. That stance is still very sexy and their weapon choice competitive.
Reduce max proficiency for any weapon to two... It isn't that hard..
Using near infinity editor, edit WEAPPROF.2DA....
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Shadowdancer
Somehow I get the feeling that the shadowdancer is a sign of a new BG2:EE thief (that won't suck) being made. Interesting that the shadowdancer isn't limited to a specific alignment and can even be neutral/chaotic good (then again the assassin didn't restrict you from this so I shouldn't be surprised). Alternatively, it could also be a human since the shadowdancer seems like a good class to dual class from too. Just dual at whatever level a thief maxes out their early usefulness, then go into whatever class you want your teleporting backstabbing skills to augment.
Dual-ling to Cleric will really make that "harm" spell deadly with the teleporting and disappearing going on.
Dual-ling to mage just means doing what Imoen can do except slightly better and having 2 instant disappearing backstabbers (1 shadowdancer and 1 mage with staff of the magi).
Dual-ling to fighter just means you have a fighter with some teleportation and instant hiding which may be useful against dragons since they blow you back with their wing buffet (the final ToB boss could also do this to if I remember correctly).
Not dual-ling simply means you have a teleporting thief popping out of nowhere whacking people on the head. And considering how it's not until 3 quarters through shadows of amn that enemies finally start seeing through invisibility on a regular basis...yeah. Though I do agree that if it can see you and/or can't be backstabbed, then your in trouble but that's what other NPCs are for, and dual classing.
This will probably be the most overpowerd class to use in the black pits. "Things went quite swimmingly until some upstarts tricked me into facing them in battle. They cheated of course".
And an evil human Shadowdancer for BG2 would definitely be interesting (as an evil thief for bg2 is semi-confirmed this kit could be a fitting, interesting option)
If there won't be an NPC-Shadowdancer then my PC will be one. The class sounds just very interesting.
FIrst, I thought, it takes away a bit of excitement and the possibility for Overhaul to introduce the kits as they'd like by revealing this info, but now it seems like there's a lot of valuable feedback in here.
So I'm glad this info leaked out because the released dlc could try to use some ideas of this thread.
(Some other games have something like a free beta-test for patches and dlc's - maybe it would be interesting to have the option to hear feedback before the release of the patch on a regular basis, so some final tweaks can be made?)
So, then i have an idea of my own:
It would be great if along with the un-hardcoding of monk/sorcerer-kitability, one could multi- and dual-class them (bards too, please). Maybe leave this feature open for mods, as i imagine a monk/sorcerer to be a bit of a powergamer's dream (which makes it an interesting option for Dark-Moon-Monk-NPC's). Imo, everything that seems too broken for a maxed-out PC is interesting for NPC's. I really like seeing NPC's that break the rules by having illegal stats, illegal race/class-combinations or just some feats that PCs can't access.
Monk/sorcerer would be power gamers' wet dream... With TOB cap max level would be monk 25/sorcerer 20.
Sorcerer spell progression stops after level 20 (both spells per day and know spells) so no loss really... Sorcerer still get to choose 7 HLAs... Plenty...
Monk at level 25 would get 11 HLAs, 75% magic resistance, +4 fist with 3 attacks, -2 base AC (no need for AC3 braces), -8 AC bonus against missile, thac0 of 0, moves fast and immune to slow...
Several files need to be edited and either find trap or stealth has to go... But I also want to edit monk skill so that monks can detect illusion (uses find trap modal action) but such mod requires locked skills.2da file...
We could also get at least one race-exclusive per race. Or some more Cleric kits, maybe some expanded multi-class and dual-class options...