@Scary_wizard: I support new kits. Particularly Cleric Kits that introduce some kind of trade-off, instead of being straight out upgrades to vanilla cleric. I've got lots of ideas brewing in my noggin.
Looking back, I'm actually a litle disappointed in an "I'll get over it." kind of way to see that there wasn't a Dweomerkeeper of Mystra, or Luckbringer of Tymora kit! It'd just feel right.
@Scary_wizard: I support new kits. Particularly Cleric Kits that introduce some kind of trade-off, instead of being straight out upgrades to vanilla cleric. I've got lots of ideas brewing in my noggin.
Looking back, I'm actually a litle disappointed in an "I'll get over it." kind of way to see that there wasn't a Dweomerkeeper of Mystra, or Luckbringer of Tymora kit! It'd just feel right.
That's true. The existence of actual clerics of different gods is the one thing where Icewind Dale 2 really has an advantage over the other IE games.
If these are an indication of possible DLC in the future, I'm very happy about it. This team continues to be my favorite developing team out there right now because they actively try to make the game better and they never stop attempting to fix things (which is more than I could say for certain other companies these days). I'm LOVING that Dwarven Defender.
Technically speaking the current cleric shouldn't even exist. FR absolutely requires clerics to worship a deity, rather then an ideal or alignment as Generic clerics do, which means you MUST be a Mythos Priest, which changes your spell access, turning, and equipment choices depending on the deity's personal requirements.
Actually you had both in 2nd edition. They ones we get as kits were called Specialty Priests and in some religions were considered elite priests which led to a lot of inside fighting.
Not in Forgotten Realms you didn't. It absolutely required everyone to worship an actual deity due to the way their afterlife system worked, which is different from the Core Rulebook's cleric rules, which also meant that all clerics had to follow the tenants of their deities, which made them all mythos priests by default. And some priesthoods got several different kinds of mythos priests available to them. (I'm still working my way through the source book for Forgotten Realms, though most got at least 2 types of mythos priests each, that focused on different aspects the deity specialized in)
Yes every priest had to worship a deity. But in a temple you'd have BOTH normal priests who worshiped that god and the specialty priests who received other powers.
The main difference between a normal priest in core and in Forgotten is that they couldn't worship a general principle it had to be a specific Deity.
Actually you even had priests who didn't have any spellcasting ability at all.
Specialty priests, the one who got extra powers, were an elite inside the church.
If a deity sponsored Paladins they'd be considered part of the church as well.
Non-spellcasters, clerics, specialty priest AND paladins were all considered part of the church, the paladins being divided in orders, linked to the church.
I don't have my books here right now or I'd give the page numbers.
I completely forgot to mention that Wizards also could be part of the clerical hierarchy in both Mystra's and Azuth's religion.
swplbsl ooh how about Crusaders and Mystics?! Please Beamdog? Pleasepleaseplease? /AloraEyes But seriously, that'd be awesome. Not too sure about kits for it, but I'd like to possibly see those.
I like the Dwarven Defender But I think it should be toned down a little Like makiing it only 1 point for missle weapons or cannot use missle weapons at all and maybe get rid of 2 weapon style for this kit
I like the Dwarven Defender But I think it should be toned down a little Like makiing it only 1 point for missle weapons or cannot use missle weapons at all and maybe get rid of 2 weapon style for this kit
I agree. I think of they changed sword and shield to make it more useful the dwaven defender I are as sword/shield. Maybe give 20 dr or extra saving throws.
I like the Dwarven Defender But I think it should be toned down a little Like makiing it only 1 point for missle weapons or cannot use missle weapons at all and maybe get rid of 2 weapon style for this kit
It is only one point in missile weapons. That is why the word "proficient" rather than "specialised" is used. The "(two stars)" is a typo.
Personally, I don't think Defenders look all that good compared to Beserkers, taking into acount that a CHARNAME dwarf probably has 19 Con anyway.
I like the Dwarven Defender But I think it should be toned down a little Like makiing it only 1 point for missle weapons or cannot use missle weapons at all and maybe get rid of 2 weapon style for this kit
It is only one point in missile weapons. That is why the word "proficient" rather than "specialised" is used. The "(two stars)" is a typo.
Personally, I don't think Defenders look all that good compared to Beserkers, taking into acount that a CHARNAME dwarf probably has 19 Con anyway.
Yeah, the bonuses are nice, but the immunities you get from the Berserker Rage are much more important for the purposes of not-dying, and +2 Str is not likely to be better than +2 hit/damage. Though innate physical damage resistance is nice.
As with Barbarians, the Str and Con bonuses are much better if you don't already have CHARNAME maxed out stats. But why wouldn't you? It's not as if you can be an elf, halfling or dual class with this one.
Personally, I would much rather have Barbarians officially opened up to multi and dual class.
I like the Idea of the dwaven dwaven more than the actually true power of it. If they took away ranged weapons or not allowed two weapon fighting I would still fight.
It's the lack of options that make the kit unappealing for me. Race: no choices, weapon choice: only two, both onehanded, fighting style: weapon and shield or duel wield only, multi/dual class options: nil, team role: tank only.
Alow multi and dual classed barbarians and it adds a wide range of options to the game.
@Mykra@Fardragon I can't agree with you guys more. I thought that that and the weapon loadouts will be on top of their list to do. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining; overhaul is doing a great job after all. But like what you guys said, the sooner the devs can release that, the sooner the modders can start on what everybody's dreaming on for quite some time. :-)
Whilst I'm grumbling, I don't like the proposed implementation of Shadowdancer either. The penalties hit them in the things they are supposed to be good at: hiding in shadows and backstabbing.
I would be inclined to give them 20 skill points per level (same as BH) but modify the base values: -10% open lock, find traps and set traps, +10% Hide in shadows. I would also have their traps stay at level 1 strength (it's easier to code than removing set traps all together).
Instead of nerfing backstab damage, I would limit weapon selection to daggers, shortswords, clubs, darts and slings (barring higher damage weapons).
Whilst I'm grumbling, I don't like the proposed implementation of Shadowdancer either. The penalties hit them in the things they are supposed to be good at: hiding in shadows and backstabbing.
I would be inclined to give them 20 skill points per level (same as BH) but modify the base values: -10% open lock, find traps and set traps, +10% Hide in shadows. I would also have their traps stay at level 1 strength (it's easier to code than removing set traps all together).
Instead of nerfing backstab damage, I would limit weapon selection to daggers, shortswords, clubs, darts and slings (barring higher damage weapons).
Actually, I think that having 15 per level is fine. But instead, they should get +15% move silently and +15% hide in shadows at level 1. (Kinda the same as a stalker bonus)
This way, they can do what they're meant to be good at (Hiding in shadows) even at low levels, but they'll suffer the same problem as assassins at higher level (Getting 40% less points to spend than regular thieves, hence having limitations in other skills)
Something else that should be given is a x4 backstab at level 17+ (like stalkers).
Wow, shadowdancer looks like he will be WAAAAAY OP. Hide in plain sight? Well then add all points into hiding, then rape your enemies with constant backstabbing.
kit: loose something to specialise in something else(appear in 2nd edition) prestige: grab the prerequistes to gain new levels in a superb version of your previous class,with some extra flavour(appear in 3rd edition)
for instance let's look at the dps fighters prestige vs kit: kit:kensai,sacrifices all armor for extremely high dmg prestige:weaponmaster,you gain increased critical chance and critical damage,you can still wear armor and equip shields and ranged weapons.
also all of the above are plainly op, disciple is pure madness,as if sorc was not strong enough already now it got tanky too,originally the disciple was not a casting class,you just 'faked' a bard lvl to get the imba bonuses for your fighter.
it's not that easy to implement 3.5 features to 2.5 rules,though they could be kits,but since they have no innate cons they need to think hard on picking one and lowering the pros is also a must.
imo the blackguard is already more powerfull than other mellees,but not enough for me to bother posting about it,if this goes on all the old kits will be rendered useless(don't quote me with inquisitor stuff,i know inquisitor murders casters,but imo all-round blackguard wins,poison is op at early lvl and that aura is going to rock at high lvls)
also blackguard was a prestige: with demon summons,passive -2 saves for nearby enemies,sneak attack,+saving throws and acces to some divine spells,poison etc the skipped the summon part completely(hoepfully)
anyway probably my post is pointless as they will be implemented diferently...
Comments
I hope in a future DLC we get more divine spellcaster kits. Clerics of Mystra, for instance.
The main difference between a normal priest in core and in Forgotten is that they couldn't worship a general principle it had to be a specific Deity.
Actually you even had priests who didn't have any spellcasting ability at all.
Specialty priests, the one who got extra powers, were an elite inside the church.
If a deity sponsored Paladins they'd be considered part of the church as well.
Non-spellcasters, clerics, specialty priest AND paladins were all considered part of the church, the paladins being divided in orders, linked to the church.
I don't have my books here right now or I'd give the page numbers.
@SCARY_WIZARD As Alora would say. "COOKIES!"
Please Beamdog? Pleasepleaseplease? /AloraEyes
But seriously, that'd be awesome. Not too sure about kits for it, but I'd like to possibly see those.
But I think it should be toned down a little
Like makiing it only 1 point for missle weapons
or cannot use missle weapons at all
and maybe get rid of 2 weapon style for this kit
I agree. I think of they changed sword and shield to make it more useful the dwaven defender I are as sword/shield. Maybe give 20 dr or extra saving throws.
Personally, I don't think Defenders look all that good compared to Beserkers, taking into acount that a CHARNAME dwarf probably has 19 Con anyway.
Personally, I would much rather have Barbarians officially opened up to multi and dual class.
Alow multi and dual classed barbarians and it adds a wide range of options to the game.
I can't agree with you guys more. I thought that that and the weapon loadouts will be on top of their list to do. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining; overhaul is doing a great job after all. But like what you guys said, the sooner the devs can release that, the sooner the modders can start on what everybody's dreaming on for quite some time. :-)
I would be inclined to give them 20 skill points per level (same as BH) but modify the base values: -10% open lock, find traps and set traps, +10% Hide in shadows. I would also have their traps stay at level 1 strength (it's easier to code than removing set traps all together).
Instead of nerfing backstab damage, I would limit weapon selection to daggers, shortswords, clubs, darts and slings (barring higher damage weapons).
This way, they can do what they're meant to be good at (Hiding in shadows) even at low levels, but they'll suffer the same problem as assassins at higher level (Getting 40% less points to spend than regular thieves, hence having limitations in other skills)
Something else that should be given is a x4 backstab at level 17+ (like stalkers).
Hide in plain sight? Well then add all points into hiding, then rape your enemies with constant backstabbing.
kit: loose something to specialise in something else(appear in 2nd edition)
prestige: grab the prerequistes to gain new levels in a superb version of your previous class,with some extra flavour(appear in 3rd edition)
for instance let's look at the dps fighters prestige vs kit:
kit:kensai,sacrifices all armor for extremely high dmg
prestige:weaponmaster,you gain increased critical chance and critical damage,you can still wear armor and equip shields and ranged weapons.
also all of the above are plainly op, disciple is pure madness,as if sorc was not strong enough already now it got tanky too,originally the disciple was not a casting class,you just 'faked' a bard lvl to get the imba bonuses for your fighter.
it's not that easy to implement 3.5 features to 2.5 rules,though they could be kits,but since they have no innate cons they need to think hard on picking one and lowering the pros is also a must.
imo the blackguard is already more powerfull than other mellees,but not enough for me to bother posting about it,if this goes on all the old kits will be rendered useless(don't quote me with inquisitor stuff,i know inquisitor murders casters,but imo all-round blackguard wins,poison is op at early lvl and that aura is going to rock at high lvls)
also blackguard was a prestige: with demon summons,passive -2 saves for nearby enemies,sneak attack,+saving throws and acces to some divine spells,poison etc the skipped the summon part completely(hoepfully)
anyway probably my post is pointless as they will be implemented diferently...