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powergaming party (BG2 TOB,NPC and multiplayer)

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Comments

  • revaarrevaar Member Posts: 160
    Clerics are more than Duhm. The cleric/illusionist has massive utility, and can do things like put cleric spells into sequencers and contingencies, making it an ideal heal bot. The ranger->cleric has access to all divine spells, and thus is likely to end up doing a bunch of summoning. The berserker->Cleric is an ideal tank, and can take care of the buffing side of clericness.

    If you wanted to drop a cleric from that group though, I'd replace the R->C with an inquisitor, for that über dispel.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    i think ranger/cleric is good but both melee clerics are inferior to kensai/mage or something

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    There is no need to be overly defensive in this game. Even with the maximum of mods, a single cleric per party is usually enough to provide all the healing and buffing needed. Don't forget that mages can buff, too - themselves with some of the best protection (Stoneskin, PfMW) and the party with the best offensive buff (Improved Haste). At the same time, mage combinations (K->M in particular) tend to pack more offensive power than clerics.

    Why bother with healing and buffing when you can just KILL everything before it becomes dangerous? It's also one of the reasons why I don't bother with cleric/mage multiclass; yes it's very versatile, and the best caster hands-down, but it lacks the quick, on-demand, no-questions-asked damage output of a physical damage character. Not to mention that against things like Drow, Observers, Illithid, all of which have either high MR or ways to interrupt casts, you are much better off just beating their heads in (or eyes, as it were). Really the only use for offensive (read: damaging) spellcasting is Horrid Wilting to kill of large numbers of small enemies, and Magic Missile to snipe interrupts or kill Mordenkainen's Swords. Firestorm can also be useful in some scenarios, but that's about it. Certainly not enough of an argument to warrant a full-time caster!

    For my clerics I very much prefer either Ranger 13->Cleric, Berserker 13->Cleric or Barbarian 15->Cleric (with the appropriate mods). There's various arguments for either, and I think it's not something that can be definitely decided. Also, there's an argument to be made for multi-class instead of dual, provided you play a game where you know you can get enough XP to offset the lower multi-class levels compared to dual-class (i.e. there is little difference between lvl~30 and lvl~40, so if you can get to ~30 with multi it's better than if you got to ~40 with dual). As always, the exact choices depend heavily on your game and mod settings.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    do you really think that cleric/mage is better than wild mage with massive ammount of high level spells or sorc?

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    Honestly, I don't know; it would require more thought and testing, and I just don't see the point. Without melee power to back it up, the support spells just fall through. Chaining Horrid Wiltings only gets you so far, and really isn't all that efficient.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    edited April 2013
    its weird never mentioning shapeshifter ->fighter with staff of ram 10x apr with improved haste with best 2hand damage weapon + druidic spells + shapechange gives many resistance + critical HLA
    10x80 dmg in a round

    Honestly, I don't know; it would require more thought and testing, and I just don't see the point. Without melee power to back it up, the support spells just fall through. Chaining Horrid Wiltings only gets you so far, and really isn't all that efficient.

    actually he could be pretty decent in meele with cleric buffs dual wielding something on improved haste =6apr not like kensai really but still can do some damage

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    edited April 2013
    zur312 said:

    actually he could be pretty decent in meele with cleric buffs dual wielding something on improved haste =6apr not like kensai really but still can do some damage

    This thread is about powergaming. Of course it can be viable, it can be very viable in fact. But from a powergaming perspective, it's just not good enough.
    zur312 said:

    its weird never mentioning shapeshifter ->fighter with staff of ram 10x apr with improved haste with best 2hand damage weapon + druidic spells + shapechange gives many resistance + critical HLA
    10x80 dmg in a round

    Can you please tell me how a 2h weapon gets you to 10 APR? Something about druids I'm missing?

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    edited April 2013
    greater werewolf + ***** in quarterstaff as fighter + improved haste

    you need to dispell druid weapon when he is shapechanged so you can kill with staff of ram

    zur312 said:

    actually he could be pretty decent in meele with cleric buffs dual wielding something on improved haste =6apr not like kensai really but still can do some damage

    This thread is about powergaming. Of course it can be viable, it can be very viable in fact. But from a powergaming perspective, it's just not good enough.
    zur312 said:

    its weird never mentioning shapeshifter ->fighter with staff of ram 10x apr with improved haste with best 2hand damage weapon + druidic spells + shapechange gives many resistance + critical HLA
    10x80 dmg in a round

    Can you please tell me how a 2h weapon gets you to 10 APR? Something about druids I'm missing?
    cleric/mage is probably the best caster in the game AND he is decent in melee

    but i can't argue if he is better than kensai/mage or something ;p

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    edited April 2013
    Interesting thing about the druids. I use fixed shapeshifting mod so I think that trick doesn't work there - and sounds like it's not supposed to either. But interesting nonetheless. 10 APR with Ram does sound quite enticing.

    As for cleric/mage (or pure cleric for that matter), they are not "decent" in melee, they're at best "passable". Certainly nothing compared to any fighter combination, let alone Kensai. It's just a sad fact that most of the (single-target) damage in the game comes from weapon attacks, not spells; spells just can't compete with Improved Haste. As such, any DPSer you have you want to be able to dish out a maximum in physical damage, which is why I pretty much use fighter-type duals all the way, except for my one Inquisitor (for the reasons I mentioned).

    The only reason to take a cleric/mage would be to abuse Timestop + Harm, but SCSII fixes that anyway. Outside of that, I just don't see why you'd take a pure caster. Why wouldn't you split the two and make fighter->cleric and fighter->mage instead? Seems a bit redundant to have double-caster if it comes at the expense of physical damage potential. As I said, your main use for spells is buffs and dispels, and you don't need a dedicated caster for either.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    you are probably right with pure casters being behind in dps

    and shapeshifter is definitely a bug

  • Nic_MercyNic_Mercy Member Posts: 378
    edited April 2013
    The best party I ever had was a mostly created party that included:

    Sorcerer - with or without dragon disciple plays the same but I went with

    Inquisitor - The "on demand" uber dispels and true seeing were just too useful I found. Especially in BG2. This is my Carsomyr user. This guy is probably my primary "tank".

    Fighter 7 Dualed to Thief - Taking him to 7 gives him an extra attack, weapon mastery, and most of the warrior HP rolls but still lets him get his warrior abilities back in BG1. For added OPness I like to SK him to have the Swashbuckler kit. He ends up with grand mastery in Long Swords and Axes with the intent of dual wielding Angurvadal +5 and Axe of the Unyielding +5. This guy is just a pure vegematic melee DPS.

    Fighter 7 dualed to Cleric - Taking him to 7 gives him an extra attack, weapon mastery, and most of the warrior HP rolls but still lets him get his warrior abilities back in BG1. For added OPness I like to SK him to have a kit dependent on the party's alignment (usually Lathander). He ends up with grand mastery in War Hammer and Mace with the intent of dual wielding Crom Faeyr and the Improved Mace of Disruption. This guy is melee DPS with healing/support.

    Multi-Class Ranger/Cleric - All the divine spells along with specialization and no armor limitations. I generally keep this character as a ranged DPS and healer/support.

    Imoen (Thief 7 dualed to Mage) - Because Imoen is so important to the story in BG2 and because I just like her she's included. She also works really well for this party because she handles the thievery in the early game and my created warrior>thief takes over for her while she's dualing to mage. In late BG2/TOB the created warrior>thief's skills continue to rise and make up for any lacking that Imoen's static skills might have had and Imoen can focus exclusively on her spell casting. Were I not to use Imoen I'd still create a Thief 7 Dualed to Mage but I'd probably include a thief kit. Shadow Dancer would add some interesting utility with HIPS or Swashbuckler for better ac/combat skills.

    In general I like to have 2 arcane casters 2 divine casters and 3 melee types including a thief that gets epic abilities. This setup works well to fit my desires. It also saves me from being hit on by Jaheira in BG2 which I find more than a little creepy considering her more mentorish/parental relationship with CHARNAME in BG1 and the fact that her husband isn't dead THAT long. The downside to this setup is missing the NPC banters, quests and uniqueness.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    so i was thinking of the whole damage reduced from things like
    barbarian levels
    jan's armor
    defender of eastheaven
    cleric's armor of faith
    no stacking of hla's or armor of faith

    full barb
    45% natural damage reduction
    20% defender of eastheaven
    40% hla ability
    =105%!

    fighter(ranger)/cleric
    20% defender of eastheaven
    25% armor of faith
    40% hla ability
    =85%

    fighter/thief
    25% jan's armor
    20% defender of eastheaven
    40% hla ability
    =85%

    thief/cleric -> i know it is not good but
    25% jan's armor
    20% defender of eastheaven
    25% armor of faith
    =70%

    barb15/cleric (mods)
    15%natural
    20%defender of eastheaven
    25% armor of faith
    =60%

    full fighter
    20% defender of eastheaven
    40% hla ability
    =60%

    berserker7/9/13/15/thief
    25% jan's armor
    20% defender of eastheaven
    =45%

    full barb looks pretty good but he will be only hacking and slashing and that's not fun

    fighter/thief and fighter/cleric looks good too

    but who has the most 'power"?

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 6,647
    edited April 2013
    105% melee resist is worthless if you fail a save vs. disintegrate or power word kill or whatever and offers no elemental or magic damage protection

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    barb dwarf should have decent ST at this level i think

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087

    105% melee resist is worthless if you fail a save vs. disintegrate or power word kill or whatever and offers no elemental or magic damage protection

    While technically true, this is about as helpful as a toilet paper umbrella. We're not in a trade-off situation here, where you lose saving throw value in favor of resistance; if anything, you lose on some AC, which is largely irrelevant in ToB because enemy THAC0s are ludicrously low.

    Elemental resistances aren't an argument either, for much the same reasons. If you really NEED the resistances for an encounter, you'll swap in the appropriate gear - but you'd do that anyway, regardless of setup.

    I'm really not sure what you are trying to say there. Damage resistance is likely the best way to defend your "tank" at high levels. By the way, pushing physical damage resistances over 100% should result in you getting healed by attacks, same as with elemental resistance!

    But don't overestimate this power. This isn't a traditional "tank & spank" game. Enemies often switch targets unpredictably and rapidly, and there is a lot of incidental non-physical damage going around. Arguably the best stat to defend yourself with is HP, for that very reason.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    edited April 2013
    that is the question
    who is the most "powergaming" of those tanky characters as many of us sugested x/cleric combos

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    Imo, Barbarian->Cleric, due to stacking damage resistance. If you bend the rules even further, make it Jan and wear his special armor.

    But to be honest, "tanks" are a little overrated. There are a few instances where you want a meat-shield, and for that it's useful to have someone that can resist a lot of damage (Ascension final battle comes to mind). What you absolutely DO want, though, is a cleric. I think I'll test out a Kensai 13->Cleric for offensive potential. A bit dangerous, though, with not even a wizard robe on... maybe too much of a glass cannon, I dunno.

    I guess all you're left with then is Berserker or Barbarian to dual from; and it might just be that Berserker's grandmastery puts it ahead of barbarian. Offense is the best defense!

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    actually i missed something you can go for heavy dual class

    20-23 berserker/thief or even barbarian dual
    =
    fighter/thief
    25% jan's armor
    20% defender of eastheaven
    40% hla ability
    =85%



    but i don't like this because it is so late in the game when you regain abilities

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    Keep in mind that the HLA is not a passive, and as such costs you damage to use (or utility). I'd much rather have a lower % as passive, if it means I have more time to pump out the numbers.

    But maybe that's just me. I'm a bit crazy about damage, and it has gotten me into trouble oh so many times... I just keep telling myself it's not my lack of survival stats, it's my lack of micro control!

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    but it is for 1round/2lvls

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    The fights where the fine print matters are all pretty long. Well, in my setup anyway. I suppose in vanilla you don't spend more than a minute on anything, if even that.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    edited April 2013
    but it is kind of like neglecting whirlwind
    it only last 1 round but gives you max apr without improved haste

    i like those x/cleric dual because of cleric buffs but they look inferior to multi x/cleric with fighter HLAs

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  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    edited April 2013
    lots of fun
    probably
    power maybe with 6backstabing but that is not really powergaming

    Keep in mind that the HLA is not a passive, and as such costs you damage to use (or utility). I'd much rather have a lower % as passive, if it means I have more time to pump out the numbers.

    But maybe that's just me. I'm a bit crazy about damage, and it has gotten me into trouble oh so many times... I just keep telling myself it's not my lack of survival stats, it's my lack of micro control!

    maybe kensai/thief with max kensai possible for +damage?

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    zur312 said:

    but it is kind of like neglecting whirlwind
    it only last 1 round but gives you max apr without improved haste

    It's the same, yes. I never use Whirlwind precisely for that reason - you get to max APR (or very close) with Improved Haste, for a longer time and without needing to spend time activating an ability/wasting a HLA slot. The only time GWW is better, is for characters that can't get to max APR otherwise, like my Inquisitor. Even there, Improved Haste + Critical Strike is arguably better, though.
    zur312 said:

    lots of fun
    probably
    power maybe with 6backstabing but that is not really powergaming

    maybe kensai/thief with max kensai possible for +damage?

    Keep in mind that most if not all bosses at the end of the game are completely immune to backstabs (and consequently to Assassination as well). While a Kensai->Thief can do sick backstabs indeed, that's pretty useless if the mob is immune. Also, I don't like gaining levels as a thief; your thieving skills are maxed out quickly, and past that they just don't gain anything worthwhile. Their HLAs are also not the best (in a modded game); there's a lot of mobs immune to traps, too (or traps are otherwise nerfed). UAI is okay, but mainly for the ability to use Scarlet Ninja-to and little else. Not something I'm comfortable trading for fighter THAC0 and HP, really (assuming a thief->fighter instead of fighter->thief).

    Eudaemonium
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    edited April 2013
    but thief can probably do the most damage in the game with time stop improved haste critical backstabs

    it is sad that everyone has so low life

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    Again, most relevant mobs are immune to backstabs (and for a reason). I don't know about vanilla, as I've played it only once - might be that you can just one-shot everything there with a critical backstab. But as I said previously, powergaming has no point unless the game is difficult enough for it to actually matter.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    edited April 2013
    so theif is not powergaming char at least in moded game

    actually thiefs are pretty useless
    knock/strong fighter and you can open doors
    with tank you can just walk through traps and should be ok

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    I mainly use thief for the convenience, but you are definitely right in that you can do without them. I am however considering a high-level dual thief (I'm thinking Swashbuckler 24->Fighter) to be able to use Scarlet Ninja-to. Only having two +APR weapons sucks, as I refuse to use Solaufein's sword.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    but why use scarle ninja-to? he can go with celestial fury

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