I see your POV, OP. In some way, I agree with you. They aren't offering much that you can't get for free with fan mods.
Personally, I'm waiting for the iPad version. I'm also interested in a "modded" version of the game that doesn't have the headaches of modding. When I modded my BG2, I read the FAQs and still managed to mangle my game.
Another thing I'm waiting for is how BG is introduced to new gamers. I know they could buy the version on GOG, but lots of them won't. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone say she doesn't want to buy it because she's bad experiences with getting old games working on her computer. Every time I start to rant about how great the game is and how people should try it, I always add that they should mod the game because it's just so much better, and they get disinterested as soon as I start explaining the procedure. It's just too much effort for most people. I guess I should just tell them to go ahead and play the unmodded game, but I wouldn't want to do it myself either.
Lots of people also play games on an iPad, but will not play games on a PC. No, I don't understand it either. as for the price, yes it is steep for a Pad game, but there will be sales.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that this version might be worth it to a lot of people, but not necessarily to all.
Don't forget there are also many fans of japanese videogames who doesn't want to play it because ''it's a western game''.
I know these new characters come with their own quest chains but if they don't have any affect on the game world at all I don't know why they are there to begin with.
You can basically say the same about all the BG1 NPCs. They're all restricted to their own little world inside BG1, but you demand that the new NPCs do what the original ones never did, and then use this reasoning to qualify the new content as fanfiction.
Like the other guy I get the feeling you're looking only at very tiny things of what I'm saying and then completely ignoring everything which doesn't seem easy to counter. You're constantly restating the same point without looking at any of the reasons for *why* I said what I did. I said quite specifically that this release should have been about the original ones doing that, as well as the new. Just because something isn't right that doesn't mean all future content should be equally flawed. The idea, I would hope, of this release is to make the game better, not simply the same but longer. Yes the contract is messing this up, but this should be something the developer seeks to fix not simply handwave everything as not their fault.
The other thing you don't seem to be appreciating from what I say to you and keep repeating is that this is a game being rereleased 14 years after the original. Fourteen years! It's completely different to just adding new content whilst there are people modding as well. We have 14 years of modern day conventions, development experience and brand maturity to help enhance the game experience further. Yes when a game is new you really can't expect some radically different changes but this is *not* new. The new content is pretty much the same as the content they could have introduced 14 years ago, which is why it's disappointing. The developers want us to buy the same game we already bought 14 years ago, it's their duty to ensure that the game is improved in such a manner that justifies reviving a dead franchise, since nobody else can do it now. Like I said before if another Bioware franchise was to suddenly introduce updates to an old game for $10 people would be crying foul immediately. It is up to BG: EE to prove to us it is worth the money, not us to blindly invest and hope it is.
I'm not saying I'm completely unbiased about the content, I definitely see it sitting on the slider closer to bad than good, but I also want to challenge people that don't give any justification for arguments. I haven't called the content amateur, that's you just putting words into my mouth to make it easier to argue against. The point isn't that mods exist or that the new content looks to be the same as mods, it's that the game is so many years after the release that the developers need to justify why this is more than a cash grab. If you disagree with me give me reasons specific to BG: EE why this is a good thing and good value for money, don't just repeatedly imitate me saying cherry picking.
Whilst I would agree with you I am not sure the contract does. When a company has such a restrictive contract it's really important to ask why. Is it because a certain fallen-from-grace company is a bunch of jerks (quite possibly) or is it because they don't have faith the relaunch will actually prove a successful investment? Also possible. We definitely don't have access to their marketing plan but we do have access to other forms of media, and as of yet I have never seen this game advertised except for word of mouth. Also 5 million copies is spread across 3 games launched as new, whereas this is a relaunch of only once of them. I think it's more likely to expect sales around 1/10th of that initially.. which is probably good enough. I would expect sales of even 200k to be turning a profit, with 1 million being a highly unrealistic target.
If you have to argue a game by saying drink LESS wine I think there's a fundamental flaw in the reasoning. The argument was never about if I can afford to buy the game, it was whether or not that extra $10 was worth the investment to begin with. Is the extra $10 going to add a significant extra fun factor to the game that the GOG version is lacking?
Yes that's pretty much it regarding mods. Whilst they aren't specifically including other mods they are making the game a hell of a lot more moddable. It may well be (and probably likely) that most mods turn out to be totally incompatible with the new version, and I think a lot of people would get pretty annoyed to see their free mods being sold by another company. Hopefully if the modding capability of the rerelease is good you might end up seeing better mods than BG1 had originally, but I'm also unsure the interest modding will generate in a 14 year old game even if it is an updated rerelease.
I will buy this game purely as a show of support for the developers and also because I miss these sort of games currently. I already bought the entire collection a few months ago (BG 1 and 2, IWD 1 and 2 and all expansions, Planescape Torment and ToEE) for $6 (75% off special). That is over 300 hours of content already. I consider myself lucky if I get 50 hours of content from RPGs today and that is for the full price of $60.
$20 for around 80 hours of content (including replays) is definitely worth it and I hope the developers will continue to bring us games with the depth and replayability of the Baldur's Gata saga.
Specifically wanted to address this, since this argument is all kinds of faulty. This is the sort of logic that lets me go "Why ever buy any game? There are plenty of free ones out there!" The fact is, belittle it as you may like, but professional resources can make a HUGE difference. I've used a number of mods (and had them destroy the game). I've seen a number of mods that ranged from mediocre to outright terrible.
Honestly, I haven't really seen many "professional" level mods that were anything but bugfixes.
I agree about mods possibly ruining your game, but I disagree about the quality. There's trash out there to be sure, but if you haven't seen mods that aren't better than mediocre it's because you haven't tried the right ones! I can think of several NPC mods that are, IMO, professional quality. Gavin, Kivan and Angelo to name a few are in fact written as well as official Bioware characters --dare I say they are even better in places? I'm honestly surprised they didn't include them in this release.
Well the Wine Comment was just my way to say "the hell, is it that important" :P
Anyway, in the End one can choose to buy or not to buy, but since we have already got the facts about EE - Discussing changes nothing, it leads to nothing.
So, People should decide to buy or not to buy, but not argue without end about things which do have in the end absolutly no meaning, because.. We already have the Facts.
Thats it, we have to live with it or not
And since we can discuss about that topic without end and without peaceful closing point, that discussion has outlived its use
I mentioned before why I wouldn't necessarily buy a game to support a developer that is still dipping their toe in the water, but if you want to that's totally cool.
I'm less interested in the amount of hours of content or the said quality of that content and whether or not the content is value for money versus what competitors are offering. I would guess a 75% off special is probably on steam, but I haven't looked on there at IE game pricing. You kind of emphasise my point though - if you can buy the entire collection of IE games as well ToEE for only $24 (lets assume not everyone is going to get that for $6), what makes this rerelease justify a $20 price tag? There's 6 games in that pack so lets say they are about $4 each. You've got the vanilla BG1 which you can tutu up and get a few fan fixes readily available many, many years ago - which as people have quite rightly said do not fix ALL issues but they fix enough for it to be a perfectly enjoyable experience. Or you could buy BG:EE for $20 to get the extra resolution support, 3 extra characters a class and a dungeon. Is this rather small helping of extra content worth 5 times the price of the game compared to the competition?
Please keep in mind with any arguments offered that I am not at all commenting on the quality of BG: EE, but the value for money vs deals offered by the competition. The question posed is "Does BG: EE justify the price increase over rivals?" not "Is BG a game worth buying again?"
Do you really thing BeamDog spend several month doing as little as possible for BGEE ? Or, can you at least acknowledge the fact that they ARE motivated. Motivation is a good fuel. They proved it on this forum, on twitters and in interviews. Those professionals have been working for some times now. They are also, for most cases, BG veterans. They know how it works from within. They have access to the inner code, something modders never had.
If you really thing that what they did, as a team of 10-18 professionals, in 6-8 months is not worth the extra 8$ then don't buy it. You are free to choose, and as you say, for some it is no little coins. But it's a shame I think. Plus, they have some additional features planned after selling the game. As for now, there is no promise made about that, but one. They will make the experience of playing BGEE more pleasurable and/or easier modding.
Sorry you seem to have gotten the completely wrong impression from this thread. I'm not saying I don't want to buy this game, or that Beamdog are lazy or not putting in the effort into the game. I definitely don't want people telling other people to not buy the game (or equally to just ignore complaints and buy the game). Yes they are a small team on a limited budget working on a difficult contract, but this is not our problem as customers. Nobody is (hopefully) saying that Beamdog are doing a bad job, I am merely asking if it is a job that is justifying the inflated asking price compared to what is offered by rival companies. If it is not then no harm is coming from this thread, people that were probably not going to buy it are still not going to buy it. If it IS worth the price then hopefully people in this thread will offer well reasoned arguments as to why, and convince other people to buy the game. The end result is ultimately either more sales or the same sales. If anything here convinces people to not buy the game I would argue they had already decided to not buy the game.
If you're viewing the game as an expansion pack with the original game bundled free surely the expansion pack costs $20? If you're planning to replay the content multiple times I do not doubt you will probably get really good value for money, but I don't think you should expect the same of all players (especially not the new crowd everyone is keen to mention).
The new characters are of conflicting alignments, so it's unlikely most people will play through all of those new hours of content. Also since the black pits are stand alone and actually affect your party or improve them in any way I would argue a lot of people that buy this probably won't even touch it. I don't doubt plenty of people will play it and enjoy it, but it's not what many fans hoped the additional content would be. There's plenty of WHAAA? threads around these forums to see this reaction.
The whole point of these forums is to discuss the game. I'm certainly not the only person that questions whether the new content is good value for money or not, so no this discussion does not not lead to anything. It will give players reasons to consider the game which they otherwise wouldn't have realised, or it will not and won't change their mind to not buy it. If you don't have anything to add to the discussion that's fine but don't tell everyone else to stop what is mostly a civilised discussion simply because you don't care.
Re: Buying the game to show support. A few of you have said this so a general reply to all.
That's fine, you're buying this to state a point of view rather than for the game though. Doesn't that instantly undermine the game and the efforts of the development team? You're saying "I want this game for what it stands for, not because it's a good purchase". You might think you're saying you support Baldur's Gate and/or EE, but you're also saying you support companies shelling out rehashed releases of their old games for more money (even if this is not what you intended to do). I am not saying Overhaul are doing this - but this is what the moneygrubbing publishers of today will think (and act upon).
1) You're assuming we're not satisfied with the game; we are. Support is one of the many reasons to buy the game. 2) Overhaul has proven to be very close to their community. Ties with the modding community, members of the original team, and the willingness to listen to us are very good points in my book. I doubt that any company would overlook what are the core characteristics of Overhaul, those that generated such enthousiasm among die-hard fans.
We're supporting a company that has an exceptional relationship with the community and a passion for what they do. This is what the industry sees, but most importantly, this is what Overhaul sees.
If you want to support a developer financially then support them financially. Ask for a donation link. By buying a game you don't necessarily want to show your support for a developer and/or stance of development you are artifically inflating sales and damaging the developer in the long run. You're making it seem like there is more interest than there is, and that isn't support at all.
Again, you're assuming that it's the only reason we're buying the game.
What if you buy this game just to show support, and the next game turns out the same? Do you just show support until you get what you want?
Sorry for trying things.
Finally about GOG. "Purchasing from Gog is a vote for DRM free gaming". How about purchasing from gog is getting a game cheaper than anywhere else that works on your modern computer, and isn't otherwise available? I buy games from GOG because I want the games, not because I'm trying to undermine EA or Activision. For the most part GOG is rather unique - they are the only ones offering these games in a package that works on Windows 7, for a highly competitive price point, and with a convenient library and download system that doesn't have mandatory installation of a ton of third party programs that you don't want (hi Origin).
Baldur's Gate: EE is doing none of this. There are already releases by other companies that make the game playable on modern computers for half the price or less. It isn't comparable when you're talking about someone buying the games to play the games rather than to show support for someone.
It's still a vote for DRM-free gaming, wether you like it or not. It's a factor among others (and you seem to be missing that there's rarely one sole reason to purchase a game). In my experience, BG is either buggy or ugly. You have to chose. Maybe I'm just unlucky? But in the end, if you think that having a clean game isn't that big of a deal (how can you use Windows 7 compatibility as an argument then?), why don't you just hit retail stores and the likes? You can probably find old games at 2$ piece if you know where to look.
Or you could buy BG:EE for $20 to get the extra resolution support, 3 extra characters a class and a dungeon.
3 romanceable characters (there are none in the GOG release), each of which with its own quest, a new 8-hours adventure, a new UI, journal, hundreds of bug fixes and engine improvements that would otherwise require installing various mods - not to mention all the bug fixes that only the dev team can make because only they have access to the source code -, a new kit, new music, new items, new areas with new graphics, working multiplayer, continued support after release including DLC that'll mostly be free.
You keep downplaying the value BGEE brings with subtle remarks - it'll likely break mods (Trent Oster has stated numerous times that they are closely working with modders not to break mods) - content quality will likely be bad (uh, lol?) If you have no trust in Beamdog, that's ok, you can just wait 2 months and see reviews for yourself. It's not like you had to pre-order to ever be able to see the game.
Please keep in mind with any arguments offered that I am not at all commenting on the quality of BG: EE, but the value for money vs deals offered by the competition.
Isn't the value for money a direct function of the quality of BGEE? :S
I see where you are coming from but I still believe that BG:EE is a game worth paying $20 for. A lot of people have the same sort of questions as you do. I didn't read this whole thread so I don't know if this has been mentioned before. There is going to be additional DLC available later which will be free for PC users. iOS/Android users on the other hand will have to pay the $5 per DLC.
BG was a game released over 10 years ago and I believe there are lots of gamers today who have never played it before. Tablet users especially iPad owners are a completely different market that did not exist 10 years ago. I believe BG:EE was conceived primarily to target this market with PC users as a secondary market since most people would already have played the game on the PC. Nostalgic gamers like myself as purely a bonus since I am willing to buy the game multiple times.
For someone who has never played the game before, the $20 is definitely worth it. For someone who has played the game before, how does the game compare to the other games available on the platform? Is $20 a fair price to ask? I believe it is based on the quality of the game. Would I pay $20 for it if it was Angry Birds quality? No but then I am glad it is a much better game than Angry Birds.
Perfectly reasonable to say you like the game and you want to support it, but my comments were more to people that said they are buying it just to support the developer. If the only reason provided for a purchase is you want to support the dev it does make me wonder if you will even play the game. There's a few people that said they want to support the dev as well as play the game and I've address their other comments rather than challenging the notion of support again.
The problem with BG: EE I think isn't Overhaul (well maybe their legal department not having a big enough voice). It's brilliant that the devs love the franchise and want to support the franchise, but if the license holder effectively tells them "You can't change the franchise" how much support can really be offered? If they have really great stories to tell but aren't allowed to use the BG cast or location to tell them.. well why is this being added as a part of Baldur's Gate? The license holder says no so you take your original ideas, gifted team and great content and make it into its own IP.
The voting for DRM-free gaming: yeah it is definitely a vote, but someone told me that was why I bought games from GOG which is simply not true. Your last point is kind of my point to begin with. Since you can already get the game for incredibly cheap since it's so old why is there such a high price point for bug fixing and a splatter of new content? If this game was priced at $9.99 I think it would be perfect and great value for money, as well as extremely competitive against rivals. At twice that price I'm not sure I can say the same thing.
I would point to the ipad version - you can buy it specifically for $9.99 without the new content., and then buy the new content as and when you want it. This is exactly the same price as GOG, but the GOG version does not have the upgrades and fixes that BG: EE has. This is a very competitive pricing structure and a great selling point. However on PC we do not have that option.
And I would argue that all of that new character DLC in other games is hastily thrown together rubbish to scam the customer out of paying more money, so it'd be very far from my list of reasons to argue for BG: EE. The problem is that those 3 new characters are being sold for 2-5x the cost of the full game by itself from rival companies, the issue isn't the quality of the content.
I am simply referring to the relative cost of professionally developed game extensions (DLC). Relative to the market the price does not seem way out. I see value in that. Based on tweets regarding new dialog it may be higher quality than Zaeed in Mass Effect (how didn't talk to anyone) for example.
I would point to the ipad version - you can buy it specifically for $9.99 without the new content., and then buy the new content as and when you want it. This is exactly the same price as GOG, but the GOG version does not have the upgrades and fixes that BG: EE has. This is a very competitive pricing structure and a great selling point. However on PC we do not have that option.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the iPad version actually comes with TBP and one NPC including its quest line along with all the enhancements and upgrades and costs $10.
So for the SAME cost as BG1 on GoG, beamdog is * porting the game to iPad * adding improvements to interface * adding content with The Black Pits and a new NPC * adding multiplayer code * on going support
the in app purchases only consist of the two NPCs, voice sets and portrait sets it seems to be implied that everything else is included
If they add Imoen banter in the new areas it would expand the game for me. Ever notice that she has none in BG1? I read once she was a last minute add to offer a good thief early in the game. Any how if she banters with new characters I would value that.
Or you could buy BG:EE for $20 to get the extra resolution support, 3 extra characters a class and a dungeon.
3 romanceable characters (there are none in the GOG release), each of which with its own quest, a new 8-hours adventure, a new UI, journal, hundreds of bug fixes and engine improvements that would otherwise require installing various mods - not to mention all the bug fixes that only the dev team can make because only they have access to the source code -, a new kit, new music, new items, new areas with new graphics, working multiplayer, continued support after release including DLC that'll mostly be free.
You keep downplaying the value BGEE brings with subtle remarks - it'll likely break mods (Trent Oster has stated numerous times that they are closely working with modders not to break mods) - content quality will likely be bad (uh, lol?) If you have no trust in Beamdog, that's ok, you can just wait 2 months and see reviews for yourself. It's not like you had to pre-order to ever be able to see the game.
Please keep in mind with any arguments offered that I am not at all commenting on the quality of BG: EE, but the value for money vs deals offered by the competition.
Isn't the value for money a direct function of the quality of BGEE? :S
Your first paragraph is exactly the sort of argument I want people to be offering. These are reasons that justify the rerelease and pricing structure. Whilst it's debatable as to whether this will sell it to people on the fence, it's things that are being offered that are otherwise not available from the competition. Things such as the new UI and non-source related bug fixes - well the only screenshot I've seen with the UI was the ipad, and the UI looked remarkably similar to BG2. It's also a work in progress for sure (or even just a mockup for a screenshot) but it's all I have to go on right now. Given this stuff was generally available 10 years ago it is not a selling point anymore.
Continued support post-release with fixes and DLC, both free and paid is definitely great but it's also not quantifiable. It's good to buy a game and have it being supported, but it's hard to buy a game and hope what you want will be added later.
Re: subtle remarks. This isn't me downplaying it, that was just one comment I made that isn't particularly hard to deduce. The old BG was not designed to be modded, it was very much a hacky mess when it came to modding. These mods generally relied on workarounds to do what they wanted to do, and even if they worked particularly well then it was with the engine in a completely different state. If the game is being cleaned up with the source code being rewritten in places it is really not hard to think that mods to the original game will not be compatible anymore. They can try to make mods not break, but at the same time they are offering better support for modding in general. It is definitely not a bad thing to say "Your old mods won't work in this new release but we've given you the tool to make the same content 10x easier and work better". That's not a bad thing at all.
Content quality will likely be bad? I thought I said repeatedly I'm not arguing about whether or not the content quality is good. Zeckul you are repeatedly just arguing against what you want me to say rather than what I am arguing. I said it's not a matter of whether or not the content is good or bad. Value for money isn't necessarily a reflection of how good content is, but what is offered compared to you rivals. If your rival is offered the game for 20% of the price but with 10% less content than their offer is generally better value for money. That doesn't make your content BAD it just means comparitively it is not a good offer.
@kunjal29 Yeah $20 is definitely worth it for someone that hasn't played it before, but $10 or $4 is even better. Is the quality improved enough to ask for such a big percentage increase? I am not convinced as of yet, though the ipad version I think is definitely extremely good value for money, for the reasons stated a post up. @Lediath puts this quite well.
The argument about value for money is an easy one to make for this game if there was no other competition, but that isn't the case. Most games released aren't in competition with themselves, which is why this is a very special case of a game and what I think is an interesting point of discussion. The game needs to effectively offer so much that it justifies being a better purchase than itself without the additions.
When a company suggests something is 4 hours of content I tend to find it to be more like 2 or 3, but in this case lets give them the benefit of the doubt. You've got 10-15 hours or so of additional content in a game that has a good 30-50 hours of content in it already, depending on how you play. In today's market you are paying $4-10 from the competition for that first 30-50 hours, and then an additional $10-16 for that next 10-15 hours from Beamdog. I think it's not unreasonable to assume that the quality level will remain fairly consistent throughout, so it's a fair comparison in my eyes. This is why I argue the value for money is not good.
I can completely see the OP's point through the three pages of this "value" discussion. For me, and from the looks of it for the OP as well, its probably not worth it on the PC. I already own two copies, I have very little incentive to get the game again on the exact same platform besides for the new content.
HOWEVER, Beamdog's decision to port to the iPad was a very smart business move. I'm definitely gonna pick that up. I have an hour and a half commute to work. Playing BG would certainly help alleviate that a bit
Additionally if I feel like the monk + TBP included in that version were well done, I'll probably end up picking up both additional NPCs.
EDIT:
I do have to point out to @kraed that his analysis of value seems like it's missing a few elements though.
1) Comparing to GoG is a bit unnatural I think. The GoG team really doesn't have to do much to get the old infinity game to work on win7. I mean besides the hassle of pulling out my discs and having to swap physical media, GoG provides no added advantage (I played BG on win7 w/o the use of GOG before). I like to believe that beamdog has put in quite a bit of effort into the fundamental engine and user interface rework, to bring it up to date.
2) Further comparison between hours of gameplay for the base game and hours of DLC is also not always appropriate. Just look at all the other games of today, Modern Warfare, Battlefield, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed, Street Fighter, any AAA title that you can think of, almost ALL of them have DLC and almost all of them are not LINEARLY proportional with regards to its gameplay length and its cost when compared to the original game. I think you have to realize that the DLC probably took much more effort from beamdog to create than the general enhancements for the rest of the game. They have to hire artists, writers, scripters, etc that they don't actually need for the engine rework. So in that case, if the content is GOOD, it's completely worth it IMO.
Things such as the new UI and non-source related bug fixes - well the only screenshot I've seen with the UI was the ipad, and the UI looked remarkably similar to BG2. It's also a work in progress for sure (or even just a mockup for a screenshot) but it's all I have to go on right now. Given this stuff was generally available 10 years ago it is not a selling point anymore.
"Given this stuff was generally available 10 years ago" What? fully re-done UIs for BG1 that scale to multiple resolutions were available 10 years ago? How is the new BGEE UI not a selling point?
Re: subtle remarks. This isn't me downplaying it, that was just one comment I made that isn't particularly hard to deduce.
It's not hard to think that Beamdog could accidentally break mods, however they've repeatedly stated they're trying hard not to break mods, and they are very aware of the modding community and the popular works available. So no, based on what we know, BGEE will probably not break mods, although it might obsolete a lot of them (starting with BG1Tutu at least).
Content quality will likely be bad? I thought I said repeatedly I'm not arguing about whether or not the content quality is good. Zeckul you are repeatedly just arguing against what you want me to say rather than what I am arguing. I said it's not a matter of whether or not the content is good or bad. Value for money isn't necessarily a reflection of how good content is, but what is offered compared to you rivals. If your rival is offered the game for 20% of the price but with 10% less content than their offer is generally better value for money.
So it if isn't quality what is it? Quantity? Quantity of what? Hours of gameplay? BGEE seems to offer around 12 hours of new content (at least 8 hours for the new adventure + the new characters' side-quests), 10$ for 12 hours is not bad considering many 50$ titles selling today have less than that in total.
As for your point of "it's not a matter of whether the content is good or bad"... are you serious? You'd be happier with a 50-hour new IP if the quality was trash, than with 10 hours of quality gameplay for BG1? Of course quality matters.
You know, i had the same arguments as you, @kraed.
Is this game something like a modded BGT/Tutu version of BG or something else, better?
It depends on how you look at things. Is the glass of water half-filled or half-empty?
Do you notice the additions first or what's missing?
Your arguments are solid, because it is the truth that there are many mods offering for free many of the additions.
Fixpacks that move bugs away, high resolution widescreen mods, new npc mods, new kit mods, new animation mods etc. Some of them are indeed of high quality.
It always comes down to personal preference. The argument boils down to "is this game for me?"
The price, is something i did not expect, i expected less to be honest, since the graphics where it mattered were not touched.
I'm gonna go and support BG:EE (already did), since i haven't played BG1 too much, and the additions can give the sense of a new game. So can mods, you can argue, but another argument also stands. That you have to pick the good mods from the garbage ones, and this needs your testing, your patience, and time.
However, i will say that, although this accounts indeed for an "Enhanced Edition", i expected something more, in terms of graphics. I consider it a high risk move to release a game in 2012, that looked dated character art wise even back in 2000.
I also didn't like this "blur" effect i saw in screenshots, i don't get why you release screenshots in low resolutions and upscale them. It's the other way around, you make high res screens and downscale them. It's a bit suspicious about what is really happening with the graphics enhancements but we have to wait and actually see, so i can't say anything for sure here.
I think the devs are doing whatever they can, and they're good at it, i am just concerned about the fact that it seems like their budget is waay limited, and you can only enhance a game like Baldur's Gate once.
I mean damn, i know i caused fatigue to a lot of people with this but, not even seeing another set of badass armor (cough Blackguard) with all that nice artwork we get to see is a SHAME, something i can't get over
In the end, there are some things i like about this EE, and many things i don't.
If you go and ask me straight if it's worth 20$? If a game that took 4 years to develop and features a new engine and up to date graphics was bought for 35-40, then preorder for 18 might be worth it.
But to the real question, is it worth more than getting the GOG version and modding it? If i want to be completely cold and calculating, then i'd say no.
However, Beamdog, i have faith in you, i want to see your enhancements and play through BG:EE, i want to see with my own eyes the difference between a pro and an amateur and i would like to support you.
Support you so that, inside a business where monsters exist, we can have someone that creates games like Baldur's Gate. Someone who does talk with their customers and even reply nicely when someone is aggressive.
So please, do your best to support this game, and for it to attract more customers, please find a way to bring the graphics up to par, i know models is difficult, but we have to do something in the end.
People will support BG:EE a great deal. If they don't see an improvement, they won't support BG2:EE, i do think we're gonna need some more than new npcs, fixes and a questline or two.
Even if you release these graphical upgrades (real ones) as DLC in parts, please consider it, it's the only thing modders cannot do by themselves, the only thing that could trash any argument about " is BG:EE just a modded BG ?".
Conclusion : BG:EE is arguably a new game content wise. It doesn't give much more than mods totally, but it delivers to an extent, depending on your preferences. It seriously lacks the graphical upgrade that it needed though, source art aside. In my opinion, this lacking will endanger the sales, i would hope you are able to engineer a solution for adding simple stuff like more armor for example in the game, some eye candy, without needing so much "man years" as you call it, if you can create new areas, you should at least consider putting more armor, not models, in any way possible. BG2:EE will certainly need something like that, and as it was said, maybe even before that.
i dont know if my input here will be of any use at all. theres been a lot of mention of all the mods and stuff available to people. i personally have never used any of these and wouldnt know where to start with using them. I honestly think that this game will appeal to people that are not to familiar with how to get or use these mods. I have been a fan of the game since it first came around and even though i do agree that @kraed does make some fair points, for me the fact that i can just go to the website and pre order this game easy as that really appeals to me. I think for a lot of people this will be a good way to buy an awesome game with little trouble or hassle downloading mods. If iam correct i believe that the developers will constantly keep it updated to and i think thats also pretty awesome
If i would not care i would be not here at all, you misunderstood Sure, i agree partly with the reason that seen from a point of view What we got in the Enhanced Edition is not really that what we expected and what we hoped for.
But in my opinion, comparing the new enhanced version with that version from gog - is something like comparing with a brand of oranges with another a bit different brand of oranges
There are already so many Baldur's Gate packs available since its first release, it all ads just a not necessary way of confusion to it. Sure, there are cheaper variants available and with mods.. i do not deny that you can get a similiar experience of gaming with them too, i tried that last week just for fun
But that method of playing is missing for example the ability to make things larger at higher resolutions for example, nothing new, that has been already here discussed to death
I wonder if people would have known exactly from start what they would get in the end, reactions would have been a bit different compared to the situation as it turned out in the end.
People should just decide what variant they want, everyone is free to buy the enhanced or gog versions, whatever
Somehow that board needs a section where discussions like other Sets of Baldurs Gate/Baldur's gate 2 are fitting in, since having all kind of conversations in one board part... That CAN be confusing
Anyway, i for my part look forward for the Enhanced while i also do believe that it would have been more possible if terms would have been more flexible. But in the end we can't Change it
http://www.pocketplane.net/mambo/ is your best friend when it comes to modding. I was a complete newb when I started playing around with the BG series as well.
I think BGEE is a perfect buy for individuals such as yourself though, no hassle installation with all the trimmings of modern OS and hardware support
I can completely see the OP's point through the three pages of this "value" discussion. For me, and from the looks of it for the OP as well, its probably not worth it on the PC. I already own two copies, I have very little incentive to get the game again on the exact same platform besides for the new content.
HOWEVER, Beamdog's decision to port to the iPad was a very smart business move. I'm definitely gonna pick that up. I have an hour and a half commute to work. Playing BG would certainly help alleviate that a bit
Additionally if I feel like the monk + TBP included in that version were well done, I'll probably end up picking up both additional NPCs.
This is really exactly my point. The iPad is extremely competitive and a release that was not previously available without emulation, whereas the PC version is not particularly.
I didn't say the UI changes and resolution scaling have been available previously, in fact the entire way through this thread I have repeatedly and consistently said one of the key features and selling points of this enhanced edition is the resolution support. That is the complete opposite of what you just said I said. The simple fact that you have completely missed this shows how you are just ignoring everything which doesn't fit your argument, even when it is comments about what the game is doing right which would actually support your reasoning. That comment was a reference specifically to the bug fixes not involving changing the source code, not the UI and you damn well knew it. I said the UI didn't look much different from before from the material we have been offered, which is a reasonable deduction as we have a screenshot of the game on ipad with the UI and it's the same as the BG2 UI.
You really do seem to love taking things out of context to fit what you want to argue rather than what I am saying. If you want people to read your posts please don't ignore almost everything that was previously said.
A good summary of my personal opinion too, I agree entirely. I really want to support Beamdog, I think they have great intentions and passion and want to succeed but.. they aren't giving a whole lot for us to support. The original art assets were lost so you can't make HD versions, fair enough. The team is too small to do new assets, also fair enough. But $20 for some mechanical refinements and a little extra content? I'm finding it really hard. I desperately want to hit this preorder button but I can't make myself do it. I really want to support the idea of a BG enhanced edition but this isn't necessarily the enhanced edition I wanted to support. However now it exists there will likely never again be any other edition of the game, so it is this or nothing. If the team wants to make BG3 they should be fighting to make BG3, not shelling out 'what we can' and hoping people will bite. I'd point again to The Witcher and how their enhanced editions are free for people that already own the game.
I'm not convinced this would be profitable business strategy for Overhaul exactly, but if the game was say.. $15 as it is now, or $5 for the improvements if you already own the game and have a CD key to prove it then I would say it is brilliant value for money.
That's perfectly fine input. If the convenience factor makes the game value for money than it is a very rational argument to offer. The thing regarding the mods is for the people to be frustrated by the issues that mods seek to fix they would have to have played the original game to begin with, which (hopefully) means they own it. So these people are also in the camp of paying $20 for the same game again with some refinements.
@byrne20 very good point. One cannot assume most people know mods exist, what they might do, where to get them, how to install them. The out-of-the-box experience matters tremendously for most gamers and here BGEE delivers where BG1 fails.
It may be partly fun to mess around with mod installation, but when you install some kind of megamod and you come to a part later where a bug exists which prooves to be a game stopper... well, that would be frustrating for everyone.
So.. a premade pack which already includes a lot of fixes and some new stuff like the ee offers is for sure not the worst kind of deal you can make.
I wonder if people would have known exactly from start what they would get in the end, reactions would have been a bit different compared to the situation as it turned out in the end.
I don't think this would have happened, since the problems and disappointments largely seem to come from the lost assets and restrictive contract. Those aren't exactly things that anyone involved in the project could have foreseen from the beginning. From what I've read around the boards and on the twitter thread (that was great btw thanks @lordkim for the link) the game was never intended to be released like this. I think people generally fall into 3 camps when it comes to remakes and rereleases such as this: people wanting new content, people wanting updated graphics and people wanting technical enhancements.
Normally I would argue that graphics don't make a game, but it is a 14 year old game where it can be a bloody nightmare to see absolutely anything on a modern monitor. Increasing the resolution and having scaling UI will be great.. but I worry without the original assets this will just make things even *smaller*. Then having the zoom function kind of leaves you back at square 1 before you changed the resolution.
In general though the technical refinements look to be very good on paper. If you're someone that really wanted these improvements I think this is the right release for you.
Reaction to the new content is about as mixed as it can get: some are furious, some are excited to no end and some people are like ehhhh and will try it. I definitely fall in the latter of these.
So really I think the value for money stems from how much of each of these 3 things are what you are looking for in the game. Personally I was hoping for updated original content with waaay better graphics, and wasn't hugely concerned about the technical side of things, which is probably why I'm struggling to justify a purchase.
That comment was a reference specifically to the bug fixes not involving changing the source code, not the UI and you damn well knew it.
In context:
"Things such as the new UI and non-source related bug fixes - well the only screenshot I've seen with the UI was the ipad, and the UI looked remarkably similar to BG2. It's also a work in progress for sure (or even just a mockup for a screenshot) but it's all I have to go on right now. Given this stuff was generally available 10 years ago it is not a selling point anymore. "
Sure, it was obvious you weren't talking about the UI. Sorry for misinterpreting :S
I said the UI didn't look much different from before from the material we have been offered, which is a reasonable deduction as we have a screenshot of the game on ipad with the UI and it's the same as the BG2 UI.
Your deduction is wrong. The UI shown on the old iPad screenshot is not the UI that will be used in the release. This was also said by the game developers.
You really do seem to love taking things out of context to fit what you want to argue rather than what I am saying. If you want people to read your posts please don't ignore almost everything that was previously said.
Sorry for not wading through all your walls of text. It looks like on your part you could at least get the facts straight before making judgements on BGEE and asking the world to convince you of buying the game.
Wow, epic thread. I'll gladly pay a premium on something which is a premium product. Not only that, but BG is a premium brand, utilizing real D&D. There is a decades long history tothis product,that is worth something extra. At the end of the day, people will pay more for BG because of these factors, and more.
@Lediath Thanks for the link. Ill definately give it a look. If iam honest iam probably gonna wait for BGEE before i even start thinking bout experimenting with mods. Maybe one day ill have a try lol but iam pretty hopeless with anything like that lol.
@Zeckul Yeah i agree completely. There are bound to be a lot of people like me that have never experienced any mods and will 100% appreciate BGEE for what it is. I for one cant wait
@kraed Yeah like i said i do think some of your points are fair and everyone is 100% entitled to an opinion on this.
Comments
The other thing you don't seem to be appreciating from what I say to you and keep repeating is that this is a game being rereleased 14 years after the original. Fourteen years! It's completely different to just adding new content whilst there are people modding as well. We have 14 years of modern day conventions, development experience and brand maturity to help enhance the game experience further. Yes when a game is new you really can't expect some radically different changes but this is *not* new. The new content is pretty much the same as the content they could have introduced 14 years ago, which is why it's disappointing. The developers want us to buy the same game we already bought 14 years ago, it's their duty to ensure that the game is improved in such a manner that justifies reviving a dead franchise, since nobody else can do it now. Like I said before if another Bioware franchise was to suddenly introduce updates to an old game for $10 people would be crying foul immediately. It is up to BG: EE to prove to us it is worth the money, not us to blindly invest and hope it is.
I'm not saying I'm completely unbiased about the content, I definitely see it sitting on the slider closer to bad than good, but I also want to challenge people that don't give any justification for arguments. I haven't called the content amateur, that's you just putting words into my mouth to make it easier to argue against. The point isn't that mods exist or that the new content looks to be the same as mods, it's that the game is so many years after the release that the developers need to justify why this is more than a cash grab. If you disagree with me give me reasons specific to BG: EE why this is a good thing and good value for money, don't just repeatedly imitate me saying cherry picking.
@Space_Hamster
Whilst I would agree with you I am not sure the contract does. When a company has such a restrictive contract it's really important to ask why. Is it because a certain fallen-from-grace company is a bunch of jerks (quite possibly) or is it because they don't have faith the relaunch will actually prove a successful investment? Also possible. We definitely don't have access to their marketing plan but we do have access to other forms of media, and as of yet I have never seen this game advertised except for word of mouth. Also 5 million copies is spread across 3 games launched as new, whereas this is a relaunch of only once of them. I think it's more likely to expect sales around 1/10th of that initially.. which is probably good enough. I would expect sales of even 200k to be turning a profit, with 1 million being a highly unrealistic target.
@IkonNavros
If you have to argue a game by saying drink LESS wine I think there's a fundamental flaw in the reasoning. The argument was never about if I can afford to buy the game, it was whether or not that extra $10 was worth the investment to begin with. Is the extra $10 going to add a significant extra fun factor to the game that the GOG version is lacking?
@Raggie
Yes that's pretty much it regarding mods. Whilst they aren't specifically including other mods they are making the game a hell of a lot more moddable. It may well be (and probably likely) that most mods turn out to be totally incompatible with the new version, and I think a lot of people would get pretty annoyed to see their free mods being sold by another company. Hopefully if the modding capability of the rerelease is good you might end up seeing better mods than BG1 had originally, but I'm also unsure the interest modding will generate in a 14 year old game even if it is an updated rerelease.
$20 for around 80 hours of content (including replays) is definitely worth it and I hope the developers will continue to bring us games with the depth and replayability of the Baldur's Gata saga.
Anyway, in the End one can choose to buy or not to buy, but since we have already got the facts about EE - Discussing changes nothing, it leads to nothing.
So, People should decide to buy or not to buy, but not argue without end about things which do have in the end absolutly no meaning, because.. We already have the Facts.
Thats it, we have to live with it or not
And since we can discuss about that topic without end and without peaceful closing point, that discussion has outlived its use
I mentioned before why I wouldn't necessarily buy a game to support a developer that is still dipping their toe in the water, but if you want to that's totally cool.
I'm less interested in the amount of hours of content or the said quality of that content and whether or not the content is value for money versus what competitors are offering. I would guess a 75% off special is probably on steam, but I haven't looked on there at IE game pricing. You kind of emphasise my point though - if you can buy the entire collection of IE games as well ToEE for only $24 (lets assume not everyone is going to get that for $6), what makes this rerelease justify a $20 price tag? There's 6 games in that pack so lets say they are about $4 each. You've got the vanilla BG1 which you can tutu up and get a few fan fixes readily available many, many years ago - which as people have quite rightly said do not fix ALL issues but they fix enough for it to be a perfectly enjoyable experience. Or you could buy BG:EE for $20 to get the extra resolution support, 3 extra characters a class and a dungeon. Is this rather small helping of extra content worth 5 times the price of the game compared to the competition?
Please keep in mind with any arguments offered that I am not at all commenting on the quality of BG: EE, but the value for money vs deals offered by the competition. The question posed is "Does BG: EE justify the price increase over rivals?" not "Is BG a game worth buying again?"
@CheOffshore
If you're viewing the game as an expansion pack with the original game bundled free surely the expansion pack costs $20? If you're planning to replay the content multiple times I do not doubt you will probably get really good value for money, but I don't think you should expect the same of all players (especially not the new crowd everyone is keen to mention).
The new characters are of conflicting alignments, so it's unlikely most people will play through all of those new hours of content. Also since the black pits are stand alone and actually affect your party or improve them in any way I would argue a lot of people that buy this probably won't even touch it. I don't doubt plenty of people will play it and enjoy it, but it's not what many fans hoped the additional content would be. There's plenty of WHAAA? threads around these forums to see this reaction.
@IkonNavros
The whole point of these forums is to discuss the game. I'm certainly not the only person that questions whether the new content is good value for money or not, so no this discussion does not not lead to anything. It will give players reasons to consider the game which they otherwise wouldn't have realised, or it will not and won't change their mind to not buy it. If you don't have anything to add to the discussion that's fine but don't tell everyone else to stop what is mostly a civilised discussion simply because you don't care.
2) Overhaul has proven to be very close to their community. Ties with the modding community, members of the original team, and the willingness to listen to us are very good points in my book. I doubt that any company would overlook what are the core characteristics of Overhaul, those that generated such enthousiasm among die-hard fans.
We're supporting a company that has an exceptional relationship with the community and a passion for what they do. This is what the industry sees, but most importantly, this is what Overhaul sees. Again, you're assuming that it's the only reason we're buying the game. Sorry for trying things. It's still a vote for DRM-free gaming, wether you like it or not. It's a factor among others (and you seem to be missing that there's rarely one sole reason to purchase a game).
In my experience, BG is either buggy or ugly. You have to chose. Maybe I'm just unlucky? But in the end, if you think that having a clean game isn't that big of a deal (how can you use Windows 7 compatibility as an argument then?), why don't you just hit retail stores and the likes? You can probably find old games at 2$ piece if you know where to look.
You keep downplaying the value BGEE brings with subtle remarks - it'll likely break mods (Trent Oster has stated numerous times that they are closely working with modders not to break mods) - content quality will likely be bad (uh, lol?) If you have no trust in Beamdog, that's ok, you can just wait 2 months and see reviews for yourself. It's not like you had to pre-order to ever be able to see the game. Isn't the value for money a direct function of the quality of BGEE? :S
Or a CD/Mp3 , while you had it on LP.??
Its common sence to follow the evolution :P
I see where you are coming from but I still believe that BG:EE is a game worth paying $20 for. A lot of people have the same sort of questions as you do. I didn't read this whole thread so I don't know if this has been mentioned before. There is going to be additional DLC available later which will be free for PC users. iOS/Android users on the other hand will have to pay the $5 per DLC.
BG was a game released over 10 years ago and I believe there are lots of gamers today who have never played it before. Tablet users especially iPad owners are a completely different market that did not exist 10 years ago. I believe BG:EE was conceived primarily to target this market with PC users as a secondary market since most people would already have played the game on the PC. Nostalgic gamers like myself as purely a bonus since I am willing to buy the game multiple times.
For someone who has never played the game before, the $20 is definitely worth it. For someone who has played the game before, how does the game compare to the other games available on the platform? Is $20 a fair price to ask? I believe it is based on the quality of the game. Would I pay $20 for it if it was Angry Birds quality? No but then I am glad it is a much better game than Angry Birds.
Perfectly reasonable to say you like the game and you want to support it, but my comments were more to people that said they are buying it just to support the developer. If the only reason provided for a purchase is you want to support the dev it does make me wonder if you will even play the game. There's a few people that said they want to support the dev as well as play the game and I've address their other comments rather than challenging the notion of support again.
The problem with BG: EE I think isn't Overhaul (well maybe their legal department not having a big enough voice). It's brilliant that the devs love the franchise and want to support the franchise, but if the license holder effectively tells them "You can't change the franchise" how much support can really be offered? If they have really great stories to tell but aren't allowed to use the BG cast or location to tell them.. well why is this being added as a part of Baldur's Gate? The license holder says no so you take your original ideas, gifted team and great content and make it into its own IP.
The voting for DRM-free gaming: yeah it is definitely a vote, but someone told me that was why I bought games from GOG which is simply not true. Your last point is kind of my point to begin with. Since you can already get the game for incredibly cheap since it's so old why is there such a high price point for bug fixing and a splatter of new content? If this game was priced at $9.99 I think it would be perfect and great value for money, as well as extremely competitive against rivals. At twice that price I'm not sure I can say the same thing.
I would point to the ipad version - you can buy it specifically for $9.99 without the new content., and then buy the new content as and when you want it. This is exactly the same price as GOG, but the GOG version does not have the upgrades and fixes that BG: EE has. This is a very competitive pricing structure and a great selling point. However on PC we do not have that option.
@greenmonster
And I would argue that all of that new character DLC in other games is hastily thrown together rubbish to scam the customer out of paying more money, so it'd be very far from my list of reasons to argue for BG: EE. The problem is that those 3 new characters are being sold for 2-5x the cost of the full game by itself from rival companies, the issue isn't the quality of the content.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the iPad version actually comes with TBP and one NPC including its quest line along with all the enhancements and upgrades and costs $10.
So for the SAME cost as BG1 on GoG, beamdog is
* porting the game to iPad
* adding improvements to interface
* adding content with The Black Pits and a new NPC
* adding multiplayer code
* on going support
the in app purchases only consist of the two NPCs, voice sets and portrait sets
it seems to be implied that everything else is included
THAT is a freakin' steal!!! =D
You keep downplaying the value BGEE brings with subtle remarks - it'll likely break mods (Trent Oster has stated numerous times that they are closely working with modders not to break mods) - content quality will likely be bad (uh, lol?) If you have no trust in Beamdog, that's ok, you can just wait 2 months and see reviews for yourself. It's not like you had to pre-order to ever be able to see the game. Isn't the value for money a direct function of the quality of BGEE? :S
Your first paragraph is exactly the sort of argument I want people to be offering. These are reasons that justify the rerelease and pricing structure. Whilst it's debatable as to whether this will sell it to people on the fence, it's things that are being offered that are otherwise not available from the competition. Things such as the new UI and non-source related bug fixes - well the only screenshot I've seen with the UI was the ipad, and the UI looked remarkably similar to BG2. It's also a work in progress for sure (or even just a mockup for a screenshot) but it's all I have to go on right now. Given this stuff was generally available 10 years ago it is not a selling point anymore.
Continued support post-release with fixes and DLC, both free and paid is definitely great but it's also not quantifiable. It's good to buy a game and have it being supported, but it's hard to buy a game and hope what you want will be added later.
Re: subtle remarks. This isn't me downplaying it, that was just one comment I made that isn't particularly hard to deduce. The old BG was not designed to be modded, it was very much a hacky mess when it came to modding. These mods generally relied on workarounds to do what they wanted to do, and even if they worked particularly well then it was with the engine in a completely different state. If the game is being cleaned up with the source code being rewritten in places it is really not hard to think that mods to the original game will not be compatible anymore. They can try to make mods not break, but at the same time they are offering better support for modding in general. It is definitely not a bad thing to say "Your old mods won't work in this new release but we've given you the tool to make the same content 10x easier and work better". That's not a bad thing at all.
Content quality will likely be bad? I thought I said repeatedly I'm not arguing about whether or not the content quality is good. Zeckul you are repeatedly just arguing against what you want me to say rather than what I am arguing. I said it's not a matter of whether or not the content is good or bad. Value for money isn't necessarily a reflection of how good content is, but what is offered compared to you rivals. If your rival is offered the game for 20% of the price but with 10% less content than their offer is generally better value for money. That doesn't make your content BAD it just means comparitively it is not a good offer.
@kunjal29
Yeah $20 is definitely worth it for someone that hasn't played it before, but $10 or $4 is even better. Is the quality improved enough to ask for such a big percentage increase? I am not convinced as of yet, though the ipad version I think is definitely extremely good value for money, for the reasons stated a post up. @Lediath puts this quite well.
The argument about value for money is an easy one to make for this game if there was no other competition, but that isn't the case. Most games released aren't in competition with themselves, which is why this is a very special case of a game and what I think is an interesting point of discussion. The game needs to effectively offer so much that it justifies being a better purchase than itself without the additions.
When a company suggests something is 4 hours of content I tend to find it to be more like 2 or 3, but in this case lets give them the benefit of the doubt. You've got 10-15 hours or so of additional content in a game that has a good 30-50 hours of content in it already, depending on how you play. In today's market you are paying $4-10 from the competition for that first 30-50 hours, and then an additional $10-16 for that next 10-15 hours from Beamdog. I think it's not unreasonable to assume that the quality level will remain fairly consistent throughout, so it's a fair comparison in my eyes. This is why I argue the value for money is not good.
@greenmonster
I think that was intended design. She said "HEYA! It's me, Imoen!" and everyone pretended they were busy and tried not to engage in conversation.
HOWEVER, Beamdog's decision to port to the iPad was a very smart business move. I'm definitely gonna pick that up. I have an hour and a half commute to work. Playing BG would certainly help alleviate that a bit
Additionally if I feel like the monk + TBP included in that version were well done, I'll probably end up picking up both additional NPCs.
EDIT:
I do have to point out to @kraed that his analysis of value seems like it's missing a few elements though.
1) Comparing to GoG is a bit unnatural I think. The GoG team really doesn't have to do much to get the old infinity game to work on win7. I mean besides the hassle of pulling out my discs and having to swap physical media, GoG provides no added advantage (I played BG on win7 w/o the use of GOG before). I like to believe that beamdog has put in quite a bit of effort into the fundamental engine and user interface rework, to bring it up to date.
2) Further comparison between hours of gameplay for the base game and hours of DLC is also not always appropriate. Just look at all the other games of today, Modern Warfare, Battlefield, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed, Street Fighter, any AAA title that you can think of, almost ALL of them have DLC and almost all of them are not LINEARLY proportional with regards to its gameplay length and its cost when compared to the original game. I think you have to realize that the DLC probably took much more effort from beamdog to create than the general enhancements for the rest of the game. They have to hire artists, writers, scripters, etc that they don't actually need for the engine rework. So in that case, if the content is GOOD, it's completely worth it IMO.
As for your point of "it's not a matter of whether the content is good or bad"... are you serious? You'd be happier with a 50-hour new IP if the quality was trash, than with 10 hours of quality gameplay for BG1? Of course quality matters.
Is this game something like a modded BGT/Tutu version of BG or something else, better?
It depends on how you look at things. Is the glass of water half-filled or half-empty?
Do you notice the additions first or what's missing?
Your arguments are solid, because it is the truth that there are many mods offering for free many of the additions.
Fixpacks that move bugs away, high resolution widescreen mods, new npc mods, new kit mods, new animation mods etc. Some of them are indeed of high quality.
It always comes down to personal preference. The argument boils down to "is this game for me?"
The price, is something i did not expect, i expected less to be honest, since the graphics where it mattered were not touched.
I'm gonna go and support BG:EE (already did), since i haven't played BG1 too much, and the additions can give the sense of a new game. So can mods, you can argue, but another argument also stands. That you have to pick the good mods from the garbage ones, and this needs your testing, your patience, and time.
However, i will say that, although this accounts indeed for an "Enhanced Edition", i expected something more, in terms of graphics. I consider it a high risk move to release a game in 2012, that looked dated character art wise even back in 2000.
I also didn't like this "blur" effect i saw in screenshots, i don't get why you release screenshots in low resolutions and upscale them. It's the other way around, you make high res screens and downscale them. It's a bit suspicious about what is really happening with the graphics enhancements but we have to wait and actually see, so i can't say anything for sure here.
I think the devs are doing whatever they can, and they're good at it, i am just concerned about the fact that it seems like their budget is waay limited, and you can only enhance a game like Baldur's Gate once.
I mean damn, i know i caused fatigue to a lot of people with this but, not even seeing another set of badass armor (cough Blackguard) with all that nice artwork we get to see is a SHAME, something i can't get over
In the end, there are some things i like about this EE, and many things i don't.
If you go and ask me straight if it's worth 20$? If a game that took 4 years to develop and features a new engine and up to date graphics was bought for 35-40, then preorder for 18 might be worth it.
But to the real question, is it worth more than getting the GOG version and modding it? If i want to be completely cold and calculating, then i'd say no.
However, Beamdog, i have faith in you, i want to see your enhancements and play through BG:EE, i want to see with my own eyes the difference between a pro and an amateur and i would like to support you.
Support you so that, inside a business where monsters exist, we can have someone that creates games like Baldur's Gate. Someone who does talk with their customers and even reply nicely when someone is aggressive.
So please, do your best to support this game, and for it to attract more customers, please find a way to bring the graphics up to par, i know models is difficult, but we have to do something in the end.
People will support BG:EE a great deal. If they don't see an improvement, they won't support BG2:EE, i do think we're gonna need some more than new npcs, fixes and a questline or two.
Even if you release these graphical upgrades (real ones) as DLC in parts, please consider it, it's the only thing modders cannot do by themselves, the only thing that could trash any argument about " is BG:EE just a modded BG ?".
Conclusion : BG:EE is arguably a new game content wise. It doesn't give much more than mods totally, but it delivers to an extent, depending on your preferences. It seriously lacks the graphical upgrade that it needed though, source art aside. In my opinion, this lacking will endanger the sales, i would hope you are able to engineer a solution for adding simple stuff like more armor for example in the game, some eye candy, without needing so much "man years" as you call it, if you can create new areas, you should at least consider putting more armor, not models, in any way possible. BG2:EE will certainly need something like that, and as it was said, maybe even before that.
If i would not care i would be not here at all, you misunderstood
But in my opinion, comparing the new enhanced version with that version from gog - is something like comparing with a brand of oranges with another a bit different brand of oranges
There are already so many Baldur's Gate packs available since its first release, it all ads just a not necessary way of confusion to it. Sure, there are cheaper variants available and with mods.. i do not deny that you can get a similiar experience of gaming with them too, i tried that last week just for fun
But that method of playing is missing for example the ability to make things larger at higher resolutions for example, nothing new, that has been already here discussed to death
I wonder if people would have known exactly from start what they would get in the end, reactions would have been a bit different compared to the situation as it turned out in the end.
People should just decide what variant they want, everyone is free to buy the enhanced or gog versions, whatever
Somehow that board needs a section where discussions like other Sets of Baldurs Gate/Baldur's gate 2 are fitting in, since having all kind of conversations in one board part... That CAN be confusing
Anyway, i for my part look forward for the Enhanced while i also do believe that it would have been more possible if terms would have been more flexible. But in the end we can't Change it
Sorry if i did offended you earlier
http://www.pocketplane.net/mambo/ is your best friend when it comes to modding.
I was a complete newb when I started playing around with the BG series as well.
I think BGEE is a perfect buy for individuals such as yourself though, no hassle installation with all the trimmings of modern OS and hardware support
@Zeckul
I didn't say the UI changes and resolution scaling have been available previously, in fact the entire way through this thread I have repeatedly and consistently said one of the key features and selling points of this enhanced edition is the resolution support. That is the complete opposite of what you just said I said. The simple fact that you have completely missed this shows how you are just ignoring everything which doesn't fit your argument, even when it is comments about what the game is doing right which would actually support your reasoning. That comment was a reference specifically to the bug fixes not involving changing the source code, not the UI and you damn well knew it. I said the UI didn't look much different from before from the material we have been offered, which is a reasonable deduction as we have a screenshot of the game on ipad with the UI and it's the same as the BG2 UI.
You really do seem to love taking things out of context to fit what you want to argue rather than what I am saying. If you want people to read your posts please don't ignore almost everything that was previously said.
@Mornmagor
A good summary of my personal opinion too, I agree entirely. I really want to support Beamdog, I think they have great intentions and passion and want to succeed but.. they aren't giving a whole lot for us to support. The original art assets were lost so you can't make HD versions, fair enough. The team is too small to do new assets, also fair enough. But $20 for some mechanical refinements and a little extra content? I'm finding it really hard. I desperately want to hit this preorder button but I can't make myself do it. I really want to support the idea of a BG enhanced edition but this isn't necessarily the enhanced edition I wanted to support. However now it exists there will likely never again be any other edition of the game, so it is this or nothing. If the team wants to make BG3 they should be fighting to make BG3, not shelling out 'what we can' and hoping people will bite. I'd point again to The Witcher and how their enhanced editions are free for people that already own the game.
I'm not convinced this would be profitable business strategy for Overhaul exactly, but if the game was say.. $15 as it is now, or $5 for the improvements if you already own the game and have a CD key to prove it then I would say it is brilliant value for money.
@byrne20
That's perfectly fine input. If the convenience factor makes the game value for money than it is a very rational argument to offer. The thing regarding the mods is for the people to be frustrated by the issues that mods seek to fix they would have to have played the original game to begin with, which (hopefully) means they own it. So these people are also in the camp of paying $20 for the same game again with some refinements.
So.. a premade pack which already includes a lot of fixes and some new stuff like the ee offers is for sure not the worst kind of deal you can make.
I don't think this would have happened, since the problems and disappointments largely seem to come from the lost assets and restrictive contract. Those aren't exactly things that anyone involved in the project could have foreseen from the beginning. From what I've read around the boards and on the twitter thread (that was great btw thanks @lordkim for the link) the game was never intended to be released like this. I think people generally fall into 3 camps when it comes to remakes and rereleases such as this: people wanting new content, people wanting updated graphics and people wanting technical enhancements.
Normally I would argue that graphics don't make a game, but it is a 14 year old game where it can be a bloody nightmare to see absolutely anything on a modern monitor. Increasing the resolution and having scaling UI will be great.. but I worry without the original assets this will just make things even *smaller*. Then having the zoom function kind of leaves you back at square 1 before you changed the resolution.
In general though the technical refinements look to be very good on paper. If you're someone that really wanted these improvements I think this is the right release for you.
Reaction to the new content is about as mixed as it can get: some are furious, some are excited to no end and some people are like ehhhh and will try it. I definitely fall in the latter of these.
So really I think the value for money stems from how much of each of these 3 things are what you are looking for in the game. Personally I was hoping for updated original content with waaay better graphics, and wasn't hugely concerned about the technical side of things, which is probably why I'm struggling to justify a purchase.
"Things such as the new UI and non-source related bug fixes - well the only screenshot I've seen with the UI was the ipad, and the UI looked remarkably similar to BG2. It's also a work in progress for sure (or even just a mockup for a screenshot) but it's all I have to go on right now. Given this stuff was generally available 10 years ago it is not a selling point anymore. "
Sure, it was obvious you weren't talking about the UI. Sorry for misinterpreting :S Your deduction is wrong. The UI shown on the old iPad screenshot is not the UI that will be used in the release. This was also said by the game developers. Sorry for not wading through all your walls of text. It looks like on your part you could at least get the facts straight before making judgements on BGEE and asking the world to convince you of buying the game.
@Zeckul Yeah i agree completely. There are bound to be a lot of people like me that have never experienced any mods and will 100% appreciate BGEE for what it is. I for one cant wait
@kraed Yeah like i said i do think some of your points are fair and everyone is 100% entitled to an opinion on this.