Sorry, but I do see the reason why you say these things. Like I said before, you already made the decision that the new content is bad. And yes, you do imply that it is amateurish when you keep saying that the new content is nothing but a fan mod (even though I agree that there are great fan mods out there). Overhaul has hired professional writers, composers, illustrators and voice-actors for the game, how many fan mods offer the same? Not everything done by professionals is gold, but gods, give them some credit at least.
I'm not saying that the new content is worth 10$, I'll have to actually see it first. The problem I have with your arguments is that you constantly completely dismiss the new content as not being worth a dime because "there are mods out there that give new characters/kits/quests/areas" for free. Yes, there are mods that offer these, but they do not offer the same characters/kits/quests/areas content that BGEE will.
@Space_hamster Yeah I don't doubt that some people will pay more for BG because it's BG. One would expect a premium release for a preimum series untouched for 11 years (again lets ignore those console affairs) to be something with a little more kick to it. The idea behind it all is that after waiting 11 years for a new BG title we're being offered the original game with not a whole lot of improvement by a team that is really far too small to be undertaking the task. If it's a tiny team on a small budget rereleasing the game with a small helping of extra content and technical improvements why aren't we being charged a budget price? As a couple of people have mentioned so far this is exactly what is being offered for the iPad version of the game, but not for the PC version of the game. The iPad version of the game is absolutely great value for money. The PC version is forcing us to pay $10 for the additional extra content if we want the technical upgrades too
I refer you to http://baldursgate.com/ipad.en.html on the official website (the page for preordering ipad). There are 3 screenshots of the game being played using the same UI as BG2. If this is not reflective of the game then they simply should not be used to market the game on the single most visible page for purchasing the game on iPad. It's great to take a developers word that the screenshots are not accurate, but if they are directly marketing the game with these screenshots I am absolutely going to take them at face value.
- Sorry for not wading through all your walls of text. It looks like on your part you could at least get the facts straight before making judgements on BGEE and asking the world to convince you of buying the game.
If I knew everything why would I start a discussion to begin with? That doesn't even make sense. If I had made a judgement already why would I say specifically that I haven't made a judgement either way, or why would I bother to make a thread and contribute to it asking about the pros and cons? And if you don't care to read what I'm posting why are you replying specifically to me? I said in the OP I wanted a discussion to judge whether or not this is good value for money. The whole point of a discussion is finding out things you didn't know, or correcting things you thought were true but weren't. You don't have to be aggressive and confrontational to make a point or correct someone. Lets keep this otherwise decent thread civil, yes?
Sorry, but I do see the reason why you say these things. Like I said before, you already made the decision that the new content is bad. And yes, you do imply that it is amateurish when you keep saying that the new content is nothing but a fan mod (even though I agree that there are great fan mods out there). Overhaul has hired professional writers, composers, illustrators and voice-actors for the game, how many fan mods offer the same? Not everything done by professionals is gold, but gods, give them some credit at least.
I'm not saying that the new content is worth 10$, I'll have to actually see it first. The problem I have with your arguments is that you constantly completely dismiss the new content as not being worth a dime because "there are mods out there that give new characters/kits/quests/areas" for free. Yes, there are mods that offer these, but they do not offer the same characters/kits/quests/areas content that BGEE will.
I say this new content is not worth 10$ because it is being released for a 14 year old game. If this content was coming out in 2000 or something it would be a very different story, or if the content was included in the game and it was only $10 or so again it would be different. We're being asked to pay a fairly premium price for a game that is openly designed by a small team on a tight budget. Since the game is so damn old it's not unreasonable to look at what content is available out there now and ask if $10 buys this additional work.
Also I agree it is unfair to say professionals only make work to the standard of fan mods, but it's equally unfair to say fans cannot make mods to a professional standard. I certainly do give them credit for having the passion and drive to even attempt this project, which is definitely a risk. But the team is very small, working in bad conditions for the project with very few resources or time and charging us a premium for it. If the developer is working as if it is a budget title why aren't we getting a budget price?
Yes, there are mods that offer these, but they do not offer the same characters/kits/quests/areas content that BGEE will.
@Tanthalas well, we have talked about this before, but, indeed, these are not the same characters and stuff.
The argument should not be about these enhancements equaling mods in the literal sense, but that the type of enhancements made is something that modders can achieve, although maybe not to a professional level.
In other words, it is possible to bring new npcs, questlines and fixes to the game, and i remind you that the Blackguard kit already exists, although it probably won't be the same kit.
That's what people mean about " modded BG " , not that the exact things exist as mods.
It's pretty simple for me, there are some things that can attract players, and there are some players that will not be attracted by them.
I agree that BG:EE is a worthy effort, considering the ultimate goal, but let's be cautious about what will be the motive for people to buy it.
It doesn't matter if it's exactly the same as a modded BG, it only matters if people perceive it like that, or, put better, it matters if people find more thrill in it than they would in a modded BG, if they find in BG:EE, something the mods from all these years cannot offer.
The ultimate smack in the head would be to enhance the graphics even in mundane ways, like adding more armor through repainting (bam editors) for varieties, you know, eye candy on par with the new areas for example. This would end the arguments in just that, you would say, mods can never achieve that. Modders did that to edit some missing pixels for example, or to replace chainmail with plate and vice versa. Fine, don't add more models, but do something like this for variety, don't just rely on a 1pp and call it a day. Artwork is ok for new characters, let's see something more in game, without new models but repaints, something. Even the last request in the line of more variety was dismissed as too much work. Sorry i can't just accept that.
I personally like the idea of BG:EE and what it offers. However i cannot help but cringe when i think of what it could have been. Limitations because of lost art or contracts are things the audience doesn't care about. People only care about what they get, not about why they're not getting something else.
It doesn't matter if it's exactly the same as a modded BG, it only matters if people perceive it like that, or, put better, it matters if people find more thrill in it than they would in a modded BG, if they find in BG:EE, something the mods from all these years cannot offer.
The ultimate smack in the head would be to enhance the graphics even in mundane ways, like adding more armor through repainting (bam editors) for varieties, you know, eye candy on par with the new areas for example. This would end the arguments in just that, you would say, mods can never achieve that. Modders did that to edit some missing pixels for example, or to replace chainmail with plate and vice versa. Fine, don't add more models, but do something like this for variety, don't just rely on a 1pp and call it a day.
I personally like the idea of BG:EE and what it offers. However i cannot help but cringe when i think of what it could have been. Limitations because of lost art or contracts are something the audience doesn't care about. People only care about what they get, not about why they're not getting something else.
Couldn't agree more. It's not about the reasons behind problems, only the end results themselves. If something feels like a cash grab than for that person it is totally a cash grab. If something feels like a brilliant game and great value, it is this for that person as well. Neither of them are wrong, it's just how people perceive things differently.
Honestly I think the whole project should have been put on hold when both the art assets and contract cancelled all chances of something more. Maybe Beamdog really needs the money but I dont think this is what they wanted to make, even if they are putting their heart and soul into it.
@Mornmagor My only annoyance is that the new content is simply being brushed off as something with no value because there are free mods that deliver similar content. Its ok if people think the new content isn't worth 10$, but that it brings no added value? That I can't agree with without actually playing it first and confirming that its utter crap.
As for your post in question, you already know how I feel about it. I'm disappointed in the limited improvements to the graphics, I just adjusted my expectations after the bad news.
New NPCs, new quests, new areas, new items, a new class, new portraits, new soundsets, and a new UI all put together at a professional level is well worth the price of admission for me.
Though, honestly, the greatest enhancement of all is the promise of improved multiplayer functionality over manual TCP/IP protocols of old.
This. Plus being a modder I need to know what changes have been made so I can update the mods to reflect this.
Of course, in no way it means that new content is crap or of no value, it only means that some people might feel they could get a similar experience through mods. However, every story has its own magic, so Beamdog's story enhancements could be something legendary for all i know.
Yeah i know how you feel, let us all drink to forget about the graphics / beerchug!
However, since you know i respect your opinion i want your thoughts on this, even a dev's opinion if they deem my question worthy :
Since, new models are a lot of work, ok, granted, and since, we are using 1pp that makes some fixes to avatars, can't we add more variety to mundane things like armor models with the same method? If modders were able to alter the paints and patterns of armors, can't the developpers that we know are good at what they do, do the same? In other words, can't we repaint over some armors, so that we add some patterns that make it look just different? Something that gives the impression something is changed. See the Blackguard artwork. Awesome, really. With some repainting a la 1pp, we could give a more menacing look like that to some plate armor. This is not new models or something impossible, modders did this with 1pp.
Even now, nothing is over, even after release, there are post release things coming. Why don't they just do it, it's not something impossible since it was done through 1pp partly, why not do it and shut everyone up?
Can't overhaul graphics? Fine, no problem, but do these little, simple things, i know you're more than capable of such feats.
In no way i say this in an aggressive tone, it's a hopeful tone if anything, that these guys will deliver and blow us away even in the graphics department, in a different way.
Your thoughts, @Tanthalas, and everyone else of course ? And sorry for the slightly off topic thing here. Well not entirely off topic but related to the non graphic enhancements part.
Its ok if people think the new content isn't worth 10$, but that it brings no added value? That I can't agree with without actually playing it first and confirming that its utter crap.
I don't think that was the message of the OP.
I can clearly see the value of what Beamdog is doing from my multiple posts here. But the iPad version is also very clearly worth way more to me than the PC version, and strangely enough, it is actually being sold at a lower price point (at least the initial barrier of entry is much lower).
I'm not part of Overhaul and the only code line I know is /format c: (and I'm not sure if I even got that one right) so I don't know what they can or cannot do. From a layman's perspective though, I do think that something that sounds as simple as recoloring armor and perhaps adding new patterns is possible with some moderate work.
I'm not part of Overhaul and the only code line I know is /format c: (and I'm not sure if I even got that one right) so I don't know what they can or cannot do. From a layman's perspective though, I do think that something that sounds as simple as recoloring armor and perhaps adding new patterns is possible with some moderate work.
Fair enough, the argument was that if modders did it through 1pp (partly), it should be possible, or even something more should be possible from pros like Overhaul. Don't call it a day with 1pp.
First, I must say that I really enjoyed to read this whole thread!
The reason I think its worth the price *for me* is because it is giving me opportunity to experience BG1 (which is my all time favorite ) all over again, in a way I probably never experienced before.
The new content is very appealing to me personally, including the new NPCs, Quests and New areas ( and another story related quest that they yet to reveal - A.K.A "Adventure Y" ) - The fact that it is professionally made also very excite me.
Im quite experienced with the mod scene regarding BG, and I must say that since 2010 I have never Uninstalled BG because re-installing it with a HUGE shopping list is just frustrating.
Another thing is that today most of the mods focus on BG2/TOB and not BG1, at least in the quest related mods ( Didn't see any new adventure for BG1 for a LONG-LONG time ). So for me BG:EE is great news.
Also after the release of BG:EE, and due to the fact the the devs worked close with the modding community- I expect that all the new mods that will come out after the release will be compatible with BG:EE and not with BG Tutu/BGT and its forms ( Although I might be wrong here, I'm not a modder.. ) , so it is a good investment if you are into mods.
Just wanted to add that the Devs can add content to the original game, although in a small scale ( as far as I know they can add some lines of text to NPCs and add New encounters )
In the end everyone have his own personal preference. whats worth for you 100$ might not worth for me a cent and vise-versa.
I wonder if people would have known exactly from start what they would get in the end, reactions would have been a bit different compared to the situation as it turned out in the end.
I don't think this would have happened, since the problems and disappointments largely seem to come from the lost assets and restrictive contract. Those aren't exactly things that anyone involved in the project could have foreseen from the beginning. From what I've read around the boards and on the twitter thread (that was great btw thanks @lordkim for the link) the game was never intended to be released like this. I think people generally fall into 3 camps when it comes to remakes and rereleases such as this: people wanting new content, people wanting updated graphics and people wanting technical enhancements.
Normally I would argue that graphics don't make a game, but it is a 14 year old game where it can be a bloody nightmare to see absolutely anything on a modern monitor. Increasing the resolution and having scaling UI will be great.. but I worry without the original assets this will just make things even *smaller*. Then having the zoom function kind of leaves you back at square 1 before you changed the resolution.
In general though the technical refinements look to be very good on paper. If you're someone that really wanted these improvements I think this is the right release for you.
Reaction to the new content is about as mixed as it can get: some are furious, some are excited to no end and some people are like ehhhh and will try it. I definitely fall in the latter of these.
So really I think the value for money stems from how much of each of these 3 things are what you are looking for in the game. Personally I was hoping for updated original content with waaay better graphics, and wasn't hugely concerned about the technical side of things, which is probably why I'm struggling to justify a purchase.
I think this may be the best explanation you've given so far for your feelings.
I also believe that the lost art assets appear to be a blow that they are recovering from and that they indeed envisoned a different type of release.
However, given that value is highly subjective, since some are willing to pay twice or triple the amount for something if convenience is involved (gas stations anyone?), I tend to feel that this discussion is almost at a standstill. I've had a heck of a time with some mods, in a bad way.
Not to say that we shouldn't have it, just to say that it seems at a standstill at this point.
The offerings are there for the most part. Some of it may still be somewhat mysterious, but the bullet points seem to be there and each person can judge the value.
As for me, i'm buying. Not having to deal with tweaking out mods for bug fix packs or widescreen because it's been professionally incorporated into the game is worth it over gog. Extra content? Cool. I too would have loved an HD BG. Almost like an unobtainable wet dream.
I will again state my reasons, some of which you have addressed, but they are mine. I see this project as much more than BG enhanced or a simple "what are they offering over GOG". I see its importance as something that the current gaming industry needs to take note of. That these types of games are indeed viable and popular enough to drive a group of people to invest time and money into despite current notions that they are dead. That's why I hope it is successful in the best way for all involved.
Beamdog has made it clear that they are eyeing a BG3 and implying that this is a test bed for viability. That does hold some monetary value when considering whether or not to buy. It has value to me, maybe not to you to the tune of $10 though.
We all still have yet to play or even see video I think, but the bullet points seem to be there as well as what I mentioned.
I know you don't particularly agree with the idea above (I think), but it isn't something to be dismissed simply because I believe there is a larger goal here... At least I think there is a larger goal at work here. A goal I can support with $10.
Come on dude..This is an 'official' licensed BG product. You can NOT be comparing this EE version to zillions of mod attachments floating out there. Highlights of the game? You do understand that this game was built for cross platform multiplay across all supporting platforms yes? And this game and BG2 EE soon to come out will act like a 'stepping stone' to see if current generations will gain interest in buying BG3 if and when it comes out. You can't be comparing this game to hundreds of thousands of mods and freeloaders. period.
Yes that's pretty much it regarding mods. Whilst they aren't specifically including other mods they are making the game a hell of a lot more moddable. It may well be (and probably likely) that most mods turn out to be totally incompatible with the new version, and I think a lot of people would get pretty annoyed to see their free mods being sold by another company.
It's just a matter of contracting. I know there are at least some mods who would have been willing to add their mods to this release.
Hopefully if the modding capability of the rerelease is good you might end up seeing better mods than BG1 had originally, but I'm also unsure the interest modding will generate in a 14 year old game even if it is an updated rerelease.
There's still an active Infinity Engine modding community, so I'm sure there will be mods. Of course there hardly will be the same amount of mods as, say, Skyrim, but it's seemed to me like it just means less trash.
Because I can't use gog on a Mac without jumping through hoops. Even if I still used a PC I'd rather not spend my time trawling through forums looking for mods. I rarely patch my games unless it's truly game breaking for me.
Just for the shot at getting Baldur's Gate III made. Essentially I'm looking at this like a crowd funding exercise to get a sequel, only with an enhanced version of Baldur's Gate I'll get to play on my iPad thrown in, with an unprecedented opportunity to play cross-platform with friends.
I refer you to http://baldursgate.com/ipad.en.html on the official website (the page for preordering ipad). There are 3 screenshots of the game being played using the same UI as BG2. If this is not reflective of the game then they simply should not be used to market the game on the single most visible page for purchasing the game on iPad. It's great to take a developers word that the screenshots are not accurate, but if they are directly marketing the game with these screenshots I am absolutely going to take them at face value.
They are not reflective of what the UI will be. BGEE will have a brand new UI in the style of BG1 which we haven't seen yet. Feel free to believe otherwise of course.
Just wanted to add my thoughts to this. I've bought Baldur's Gate twice before and of course made images of the discs so they could stay on my hard drives, so trying to sell me the game for a third time is going to be quite a challenge. This is not to diss the efforts of Beamdog, but from purely from a value-for-money standpoint, I don't see BG:EE as being value-for-money. Having looked at the front page and seeing what's being offered, I was actually surprised. Surprised as in I was wondering why they would actually mention them at all. Think of it like this. Say you go to a restaurant and on the front window, you notice they have a big sign up saying "We have a strict health and safety policy in our kitchens". This would be weird and a waste of resources, as restaurants are expected by default to have such policies and drawing attention to it would make the potential customer think "Something must have gone wrong if they feel they have to mention it. Maybe I shouldn't be eating here". I get more or less the same vibe when I looked at the front page. Specifically a couple of things. First, is their HD GUI support. This should be expected by customers by default, since everyone has at least a 720p resolution these days. Releasing a game with only support for 640x480 or 800x600 would be incredibly stupid in 2012. Ditto goes for the "400 core game improvements" which boils down to bug fixes and modern OS support. Again, this is something to be expected by default for a re-release. Of course in 2012, if you release or re-release a game, you would make it compatible with modern OS's, it would be stupid to re-release it and only have it work with Win 95/98. So, with the HD GUI and the bug fixes, there was no need to market/advertise them at all... Then there's the BG2 ruleset being implemented in BG1. I, like all of of us here, have already played that, through BGTuTu or BGT, for free. So saying this is a reason why I should fork over money... The new area(s) and new characters, to me...again, there are free mods that do more or less the same thing. While people here have argued as to the quality of such things, I'll say it like this: there's a ton of free mods for a fourteen year old game that offer new areas and characters, and then there's a new release that charges for them. Multiplayer is a good point to buy this game, but sadly, not enough. Neither are the new cutscenes. They're basically the only two reasons why I would want to pay a third time for Baldur's Gate, and sadly, its not enough. Future mod support is something that is off in the future, not now when I drop money on the game.
If Beamdog wants capital to fund a BG3 game, then give us BG 1 2 EE for free and have a Kickstarter or some other method of donating. I would gladly donate. What I have trouble is what they will perceive sales of BGEE as. Will their team leaders look at the sales numbers and if they're high enough say "This is what the market wants, re-releases of classic games with (in my opinion, not enough new or updated content)", rather than what others have said they want their money to say, which is support for the developers and for a potential BG3 game.
@Lediath Thanks for the link. Ill definately give it a look. If iam honest iam probably gonna wait for BGEE before i even start thinking bout experimenting with mods. Maybe one day ill have a try lol but iam pretty hopeless with anything like that lol.
@Zeckul Yeah i agree completely. There are bound to be a lot of people like me that have never experienced any mods and will 100% appreciate BGEE for what it is. I for one cant wait
@kraed Yeah like i said i do think some of your points are fair and everyone is 100% entitled to an opinion on this.
I started playing bg whit mods for the first time about 2 weeks ago, but played only to chapter 3, to be honest I have yet to find some mods whitch are good imo, but I may have to high expectations.. But it was VERY easy to install mods on bg series I must say. Im new whit modding game as well, only done it on Arma 2 before, but modding bg series was very easy :-)
I can't wait for bgee, better to play through bg for the first time in 10 years or so whit the new improved version, It will feel like cristmass installing this game,hehe!
I don’t believe this will convince you one bit, Kraed, but this is how I personally view it for myself.
We (the forum community) are all here for one reason, and that’s the anticipation of a game that we’ve come to enjoy and love. Roughly 13 years ago, we paid $30-40 for a game that would provide us more entertainment than we ever imagined. I know I’m not alone when I say that I find myself reinstalling BG1 or any other Black Isle game, at the very least, twice a year. After reading through the threads, I came to find out that I wasn’t alone. Some of these people even blew my mind, because they not only can quote sub-characters, but they know what gear they carried. They’re truly dedicated fans that enjoy it as much as you and I do, if not more.
I don’t know about you, but each year I tend to drop $30-60(per game) on games that I usually end up only playing for about 4 months, if not, a year at max. However, regardless of all these so-called “great graphical and way-of-the-future” games, I always find myself going back to Black Isle games.
It’s true, and you’re absolutely right. Almost everything that they’ve announced to be features in the game is nothing new to us. Most of it has all been done by fanmods in the past. The only thing they’re doing is making it so that we no longer have to take the steps necessary to get these games to run on our modern hardware.
What justifies this purchase for me is the fact that BeamDog stepped up to revive a classic, and strives keep it within its original form. (Even without the contract in place, you can tell they want to keep it as old school as possible, but still try to give it more. Personally, I think they’re torn apart with pleasing the BG fanbase. Some want more, others want it left alone.)
Not only that, but BeamDog is keeping it away from the mass murdering large developer teams that tend to slaughter every other old franchise (even Blizzard’s team managed to kill Diablo). I would rather have them do little smidge features with future updates, than to have one of Atari’s larger dev teams turn the game into a hack ‘n’ slash with just two playable characters and a storyline that absolutely has nothing to do with The Forgotten Realms universe. (As well as pricing this new revamp at $59.99)
“This is Damien… He’s a fighter that lost his twin sister, and now he’s out for revenge --- AGAINST NINJA KOALAS!!”
So, with that in mind, rather than asking us to convince you or others, maybe you should be asking yourself a simple question: "Am I willing to spend another $20 for a game that’s kept me entertained for 13 years?"
(Update) lol, somehow I know the answer will be,” Well, I already paid for it 13 years ago, so why should I pay for it again? That doesn’t even remotely convince me to buy it!”
Well, if you buy BG:EE then at least you’ll have a better chance of having the game to be capable with Windows 8. (That is to say if, and when, you decide to switch to 8, at least you won’t have to sit around and wait for someone to develop a mod to set it up for Metro. XD
Ah, I can't keep up with all these new threads asking why BG:EE is worth $20 or worth buying at all. The naysayers are defeating me lol, I can't count the number of threads in which I've explained all the positive aspects of this enhancement. This thread is at least based from a perspective of looking for both sides of the story and not just being critical, but I think I've run out of steam for the day.
So I'll just say, this is worth the $20, if anyone is interested in my reasoning for this, they can browse through my comments via my profile or via 1/20 of the threads on this forum in which I've stated my opinion on this matter in great detail.
I hope that's the first and last time anyone suggests I switch to windows 8. The thing is a disaster for PC gaming. I agree the IE games are the sorts I tend to reinstall every year or two and play, but as you also did say I already bought them. They also work on Windows 7 fine, save for a couple of minor graphical issues in BG1. There's definitely some weight behind paying again for something that has kept you entertained for so long, though it's also paying someone else for something that a different team kept me entertained with.
That's certainly a point about availability of mods for BG1 vs BG2. A lot of the truly great mods are specifically for BG2, with a very finite amount for BG1. Perhaps the best justification for value for money here is "Extra content specifically for BG1". Though that also would say to me it's best to wait a couple of months for some extra content to come out as well. The devs are gonna support the game post-release with more DLC, both free and paid. Without knowing what their plans are for this new DLC maybe it is better to wait and see for us on the fence?
One of the things I think was more enjoyable in BG1 (which was scrapped in BG2) was having every single region of the map explorable, not just the main quest hubs and dungeons. If new DLC was to expand the size of the map and introduce a lot of new areas this may very well end up being the sort of content you really can't get elsewhere.
I certainly agree with you that almost every single thing listed as a selling point are things we should expect from a modern day release as standard. Using the rehashes of Final Fantasy again as an example it would be like FF4 coming out on the Gameboy Advance and having "Works on the Gameboy Advance" as a bullet point to sell the game to us.
-Future mod support is something that is off in the future, not now when I drop money on the game. Yup, exactly. For the modders it's great, for the players that don't mod but are interested in mods it just means the game will get exciting in a few months/years rather than on release.
The iPad version is widely regarded as genuinely good value for money regardless of potential for BG3. I would see it more as "getting the game on iPad" as the primary reason with the potential for BG3 thrown in for free. With crowdfunding if a project doesn't happen you get your money back, so the way you describe it suggests if BG3 doesn't happen we should get refunds on this.
Good point regarding macs. I later started to clarify I wanted to specifically refer to the PC version since the thread was asking about retailer x vs retailer y rather than the merits of the game itself. But it's still worth mentioning that it being available officially supported on mac is a great selling point for mac users.
The problem with using this game to test interest in BG3, as I have previously mentioned, is that it's not a new game. It's a rerelease of a game that has been rereleased for far less money by the competition and readily available from a multitude of sources over the years. This will be a good gauge of interest as to whether people will buy touched up versions of old games, but it doesn't at all show interest in a brand new experience. There's plenty of players that would buy BG3 without hesitation that may not be interested at all in a rerelease of the old games, no matter how well done they are.
A lot of people are saying that having the game ready to play 'as is' without having to fix it with mods is reason enough to buy the game, and perhaps that may even hold true for me at some point. Especially with BG2 it can become a nightmare when you have 25 mods installed and one of those mods conflicts with another one but you have no idea what it is. Having the game 'just work' would be great, but I also think it's a very high price for offering the game fixed. I've said it a few times before but if the game was also available on PC with all the fixes and additional content but $14.99 or $4.99 for previous owners of the game then I think it would be totally worth it.
I still think investment in the hopes of BG3 is gonna end up with disappointment. The terrible contract combined with an extremely small team and limited financial support seems to lend itself to revival projects like this rather than any actual new game development. I am really not confident a BG3 ever will happen unless there is some seriously strong profits gained from these releases, way higher than predictions from the combined license holders.
One of the things I think was more enjoyable in BG1 (which was scrapped in BG2) was having every single region of the map explorable, not just the main quest hubs and dungeons. If new DLC was to expand the size of the map and introduce a lot of new areas this may very well end up being the sort of content you really can't get elsewhere.
@kraed, I want to address the last line of the quote - at a quick search at the Internet, I came across this:
I had the opportunity to have a conversation with John Gallagher, who set aside his concept work for Hollywood for a bit to work on some old-school isometric maps for the Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition.It was great fun talking about different styles of maps and where cartography has gone through the years.
As we know that they plan to add another Plot-related quest ( Adventure y ) - I think it is safe to a assume that they will add new areas to a new map, I want to add that the Devs are very quiet everything regarding the world map - although I asked and open a thread about it.
Although its purely speculation, I have high hopes, only time will tell :-)
As interesting as this topic is and I think both sides raise some good points, its just down personal interests and what you want to spend your money on.
For me the price is reasonable and Im more than happy to shell out for what im getting. Partly because mod clutter annoys me a bit, and having alot of good stuff on one package is nice. I'll reserve judgement on the new content until ive played it.. It could be terrible, though at the same time it could be totally awesome.
I meant specifically areas that are attached to the current game world that you can explore into, rather than stand alone disconnected areas ala BG2. Of course they are making new maps but I would like these maps to slot into the world naturally. To use a BG one example, in TOTSC you go to that northern town (I forget the name sorry) but then you're immediately sent off to some frosty cave complex that is disconnected from the world in the middle of nowhere. That's not the sort of progressive exploration I would like, since it feels like it is not actually a part of the world.
Comments
Sorry, but I do see the reason why you say these things. Like I said before, you already made the decision that the new content is bad. And yes, you do imply that it is amateurish when you keep saying that the new content is nothing but a fan mod (even though I agree that there are great fan mods out there). Overhaul has hired professional writers, composers, illustrators and voice-actors for the game, how many fan mods offer the same? Not everything done by professionals is gold, but gods, give them some credit at least.
I'm not saying that the new content is worth 10$, I'll have to actually see it first. The problem I have with your arguments is that you constantly completely dismiss the new content as not being worth a dime because "there are mods out there that give new characters/kits/quests/areas" for free. Yes, there are mods that offer these, but they do not offer the same characters/kits/quests/areas content that BGEE will.
Purists alert!
Yeah I don't doubt that some people will pay more for BG because it's BG. One would expect a premium release for a preimum series untouched for 11 years (again lets ignore those console affairs) to be something with a little more kick to it. The idea behind it all is that after waiting 11 years for a new BG title we're being offered the original game with not a whole lot of improvement by a team that is really far too small to be undertaking the task. If it's a tiny team on a small budget rereleasing the game with a small helping of extra content and technical improvements why aren't we being charged a budget price? As a couple of people have mentioned so far this is exactly what is being offered for the iPad version of the game, but not for the PC version of the game. The iPad version of the game is absolutely great value for money. The PC version is forcing us to pay $10 for the additional extra content if we want the technical upgrades too
@Zeckul
I refer you to http://baldursgate.com/ipad.en.html on the official website (the page for preordering ipad). There are 3 screenshots of the game being played using the same UI as BG2. If this is not reflective of the game then they simply should not be used to market the game on the single most visible page for purchasing the game on iPad. It's great to take a developers word that the screenshots are not accurate, but if they are directly marketing the game with these screenshots I am absolutely going to take them at face value.
- Sorry for not wading through all your walls of text. It looks like on your part you could at least get the facts straight before making judgements on BGEE and asking the world to convince you of buying the game.
If I knew everything why would I start a discussion to begin with? That doesn't even make sense. If I had made a judgement already why would I say specifically that I haven't made a judgement either way, or why would I bother to make a thread and contribute to it asking about the pros and cons? And if you don't care to read what I'm posting why are you replying specifically to me? I said in the OP I wanted a discussion to judge whether or not this is good value for money. The whole point of a discussion is finding out things you didn't know, or correcting things you thought were true but weren't. You don't have to be aggressive and confrontational to make a point or correct someone. Lets keep this otherwise decent thread civil, yes?
Also I agree it is unfair to say professionals only make work to the standard of fan mods, but it's equally unfair to say fans cannot make mods to a professional standard. I certainly do give them credit for having the passion and drive to even attempt this project, which is definitely a risk. But the team is very small, working in bad conditions for the project with very few resources or time and charging us a premium for it. If the developer is working as if it is a budget title why aren't we getting a budget price?
The argument should not be about these enhancements equaling mods in the literal sense, but that the type of enhancements made is something that modders can achieve, although maybe not to a professional level.
In other words, it is possible to bring new npcs, questlines and fixes to the game, and i remind you that the Blackguard kit already exists, although it probably won't be the same kit.
That's what people mean about " modded BG " , not that the exact things exist as mods.
It's pretty simple for me, there are some things that can attract players, and there are some players that will not be attracted by them.
I agree that BG:EE is a worthy effort, considering the ultimate goal, but let's be cautious about what will be the motive for people to buy it.
It doesn't matter if it's exactly the same as a modded BG, it only matters if people perceive it like that, or, put better, it matters if people find more thrill in it than they would in a modded BG, if they find in BG:EE, something the mods from all these years cannot offer.
The ultimate smack in the head would be to enhance the graphics even in mundane ways, like adding more armor through repainting (bam editors) for varieties, you know, eye candy on par with the new areas for example. This would end the arguments in just that, you would say, mods can never achieve that. Modders did that to edit some missing pixels for example, or to replace chainmail with plate and vice versa. Fine, don't add more models, but do something like this for variety, don't just rely on a 1pp and call it a day. Artwork is ok for new characters, let's see something more in game, without new models but repaints, something. Even the last request in the line of more variety was dismissed as too much work. Sorry i can't just accept that.
I personally like the idea of BG:EE and what it offers. However i cannot help but cringe when i think of what it could have been. Limitations because of lost art or contracts are things the audience doesn't care about. People only care about what they get, not about why they're not getting something else.
Honestly I think the whole project should have been put on hold when both the art assets and contract cancelled all chances of something more. Maybe Beamdog really needs the money but I dont think this is what they wanted to make, even if they are putting their heart and soul into it.
My only annoyance is that the new content is simply being brushed off as something with no value because there are free mods that deliver similar content. Its ok if people think the new content isn't worth 10$, but that it brings no added value? That I can't agree with without actually playing it first and confirming that its utter crap.
As for your post in question, you already know how I feel about it. I'm disappointed in the limited improvements to the graphics, I just adjusted my expectations after the bad news.
Of course, in no way it means that new content is crap or of no value, it only means that some people might feel they could get a similar experience through mods. However, every story has its own magic, so Beamdog's story enhancements could be something legendary for all i know.
Yeah i know how you feel, let us all drink to forget about the graphics / beerchug!
However, since you know i respect your opinion i want your thoughts on this, even a dev's opinion if they deem my question worthy :
Since, new models are a lot of work, ok, granted, and since, we are using 1pp that makes some fixes to avatars, can't we add more variety to mundane things like armor models with the same method? If modders were able to alter the paints and patterns of armors, can't the developpers that we know are good at what they do, do the same? In other words, can't we repaint over some armors, so that we add some patterns that make it look just different? Something that gives the impression something is changed. See the Blackguard artwork. Awesome, really. With some repainting a la 1pp, we could give a more menacing look like that to some plate armor. This is not new models or something impossible, modders did this with 1pp.
Even now, nothing is over, even after release, there are post release things coming. Why don't they just do it, it's not something impossible since it was done through 1pp partly, why not do it and shut everyone up?
Can't overhaul graphics? Fine, no problem, but do these little, simple things, i know you're more than capable of such feats.
In no way i say this in an aggressive tone, it's a hopeful tone if anything, that these guys will deliver and blow us away even in the graphics department, in a different way.
Your thoughts, @Tanthalas, and everyone else of course ? And sorry for the slightly off topic thing here. Well not entirely off topic but related to the non graphic enhancements part.
I can clearly see the value of what Beamdog is doing from my multiple posts here. But the iPad version is also very clearly worth way more to me than the PC version, and strangely enough, it is actually being sold at a lower price point (at least the initial barrier of entry is much lower).
I'm not part of Overhaul and the only code line I know is /format c: (and I'm not sure if I even got that one right) so I don't know what they can or cannot do. From a layman's perspective though, I do think that something that sounds as simple as recoloring armor and perhaps adding new patterns is possible with some moderate work.
The reason I think its worth the price *for me* is because it is giving me opportunity to experience BG1 (which is my all time favorite ) all over again, in a way I probably never experienced before.
The new content is very appealing to me personally, including the new NPCs, Quests and New areas ( and another story related quest that they yet to reveal - A.K.A "Adventure Y" ) - The fact that it is professionally made also very excite me.
Im quite experienced with the mod scene regarding BG, and I must say that since 2010 I have never Uninstalled BG because re-installing it with a HUGE shopping list is just frustrating.
Another thing is that today most of the mods focus on BG2/TOB and not BG1, at least in the quest related mods ( Didn't see any new adventure for BG1 for a LONG-LONG time ). So for me BG:EE is great news.
Also after the release of BG:EE, and due to the fact the the devs worked close with the modding community- I expect that all the new mods that will come out after the release will be compatible with BG:EE and not with BG Tutu/BGT and its forms ( Although I might be wrong here, I'm not a modder.. ) , so it is a good investment if you are into mods.
Just wanted to add that the Devs can add content to the original game, although in a small scale ( as far as I know they can add some lines of text to NPCs and add New encounters )
In the end everyone have his own personal preference. whats worth for you 100$ might not worth for me a cent and vise-versa.
I also believe that the lost art assets appear to be a blow that they are recovering from and that they indeed envisoned a different type of release.
However, given that value is highly subjective, since some are willing to pay twice or triple the amount for something if convenience is involved (gas stations anyone?), I tend to feel that this discussion is almost at a standstill. I've had a heck of a time with some mods, in a bad way.
Not to say that we shouldn't have it, just to say that it seems at a standstill at this point.
The offerings are there for the most part. Some of it may still be somewhat mysterious, but the bullet points seem to be there and each person can judge the value.
As for me, i'm buying. Not having to deal with tweaking out mods for bug fix packs or widescreen because it's been professionally incorporated into the game is worth it over gog. Extra content? Cool. I too would have loved an HD BG. Almost like an unobtainable wet dream.
I will again state my reasons, some of which you have addressed, but they are mine. I see this project as much more than BG enhanced or a simple "what are they offering over GOG". I see its importance as something that the current gaming industry needs to take note of. That these types of games are indeed viable and popular enough to drive a group of people to invest time and money into despite current notions that they are dead. That's why I hope it is successful in the best way for all involved.
Beamdog has made it clear that they are eyeing a BG3 and implying that this is a test bed for viability. That does hold some monetary value when considering whether or not to buy. It has value to me, maybe not to you to the tune of $10 though.
We all still have yet to play or even see video I think, but the bullet points seem to be there as well as what I mentioned.
I know you don't particularly agree with the idea above (I think), but it isn't something to be dismissed simply because I believe there is a larger goal here... At least I think there is a larger goal at work here. A goal I can support with $10.
Having looked at the front page and seeing what's being offered, I was actually surprised. Surprised as in I was wondering why they would actually mention them at all. Think of it like this. Say you go to a restaurant and on the front window, you notice they have a big sign up saying "We have a strict health and safety policy in our kitchens". This would be weird and a waste of resources, as restaurants are expected by default to have such policies and drawing attention to it would make the potential customer think "Something must have gone wrong if they feel they have to mention it. Maybe I shouldn't be eating here".
I get more or less the same vibe when I looked at the front page. Specifically a couple of things. First, is their HD GUI support. This should be expected by customers by default, since everyone has at least a 720p resolution these days. Releasing a game with only support for 640x480 or 800x600 would be incredibly stupid in 2012.
Ditto goes for the "400 core game improvements" which boils down to bug fixes and modern OS support. Again, this is something to be expected by default for a re-release. Of course in 2012, if you release or re-release a game, you would make it compatible with modern OS's, it would be stupid to re-release it and only have it work with Win 95/98. So, with the HD GUI and the bug fixes, there was no need to market/advertise them at all...
Then there's the BG2 ruleset being implemented in BG1. I, like all of of us here, have already played that, through BGTuTu or BGT, for free. So saying this is a reason why I should fork over money...
The new area(s) and new characters, to me...again, there are free mods that do more or less the same thing. While people here have argued as to the quality of such things, I'll say it like this: there's a ton of free mods for a fourteen year old game that offer new areas and characters, and then there's a new release that charges for them.
Multiplayer is a good point to buy this game, but sadly, not enough. Neither are the new cutscenes. They're basically the only two reasons why I would want to pay a third time for Baldur's Gate, and sadly, its not enough. Future mod support is something that is off in the future, not now when I drop money on the game.
If Beamdog wants capital to fund a BG3 game, then give us BG 1 2 EE for free and have a Kickstarter or some other method of donating. I would gladly donate. What I have trouble is what they will perceive sales of BGEE as. Will their team leaders look at the sales numbers and if they're high enough say "This is what the market wants, re-releases of classic games with (in my opinion, not enough new or updated content)", rather than what others have said they want their money to say, which is support for the developers and for a potential BG3 game.
But it was VERY easy to install mods on bg series I must say. Im new whit modding game as well, only done it on Arma 2 before, but modding bg series was very easy :-)
I can't wait for bgee, better to play through bg for the first time in 10 years or so whit the new improved version, It will feel like cristmass installing this game,hehe!
We (the forum community) are all here for one reason, and that’s the anticipation of a game that we’ve come to enjoy and love. Roughly 13 years ago, we paid $30-40 for a game that would provide us more entertainment than we ever imagined. I know I’m not alone when I say that I find myself reinstalling BG1 or any other Black Isle game, at the very least, twice a year. After reading through the threads, I came to find out that I wasn’t alone. Some of these people even blew my mind, because they not only can quote sub-characters, but they know what gear they carried. They’re truly dedicated fans that enjoy it as much as you and I do, if not more.
I don’t know about you, but each year I tend to drop $30-60(per game) on games that I usually end up only playing for about 4 months, if not, a year at max. However, regardless of all these so-called “great graphical and way-of-the-future” games, I always find myself going back to Black Isle games.
It’s true, and you’re absolutely right. Almost everything that they’ve announced to be features in the game is nothing new to us. Most of it has all been done by fanmods in the past. The only thing they’re doing is making it so that we no longer have to take the steps necessary to get these games to run on our modern hardware.
What justifies this purchase for me is the fact that BeamDog stepped up to revive a classic, and strives keep it within its original form. (Even without the contract in place, you can tell they want to keep it as old school as possible, but still try to give it more. Personally, I think they’re torn apart with pleasing the BG fanbase. Some want more, others want it left alone.)
Not only that, but BeamDog is keeping it away from the mass murdering large developer teams that tend to slaughter every other old franchise (even Blizzard’s team managed to kill Diablo). I would rather have them do little smidge features with future updates, than to have one of Atari’s larger dev teams turn the game into a hack ‘n’ slash with just two playable characters and a storyline that absolutely has nothing to do with The Forgotten Realms universe. (As well as pricing this new revamp at $59.99)
“This is Damien… He’s a fighter that lost his twin sister, and now he’s out for revenge --- AGAINST NINJA KOALAS!!”
So, with that in mind, rather than asking us to convince you or others, maybe you should be asking yourself a simple question: "Am I willing to spend another $20 for a game that’s kept me entertained for 13 years?"
lol, somehow I know the answer will be,” Well, I already paid for it 13 years ago, so why should I pay for it again? That doesn’t even remotely convince me to buy it!”
Well, if you buy BG:EE then at least you’ll have a better chance of having the game to be capable with Windows 8. (That is to say if, and when, you decide to switch to 8, at least you won’t have to sit around and wait for someone to develop a mod to set it up for Metro. XD
So I'll just say, this is worth the $20, if anyone is interested in my reasoning for this, they can browse through my comments via my profile or via 1/20 of the threads on this forum in which I've stated my opinion on this matter in great detail.
I hope that's the first and last time anyone suggests I switch to windows 8. The thing is a disaster for PC gaming. I agree the IE games are the sorts I tend to reinstall every year or two and play, but as you also did say I already bought them. They also work on Windows 7 fine, save for a couple of minor graphical issues in BG1. There's definitely some weight behind paying again for something that has kept you entertained for so long, though it's also paying someone else for something that a different team kept me entertained with.
@FillaFillason
@mch202
That's certainly a point about availability of mods for BG1 vs BG2. A lot of the truly great mods are specifically for BG2, with a very finite amount for BG1. Perhaps the best justification for value for money here is "Extra content specifically for BG1". Though that also would say to me it's best to wait a couple of months for some extra content to come out as well. The devs are gonna support the game post-release with more DLC, both free and paid. Without knowing what their plans are for this new DLC maybe it is better to wait and see for us on the fence?
One of the things I think was more enjoyable in BG1 (which was scrapped in BG2) was having every single region of the map explorable, not just the main quest hubs and dungeons. If new DLC was to expand the size of the map and introduce a lot of new areas this may very well end up being the sort of content you really can't get elsewhere.
@RikuoAmero
I certainly agree with you that almost every single thing listed as a selling point are things we should expect from a modern day release as standard. Using the rehashes of Final Fantasy again as an example it would be like FF4 coming out on the Gameboy Advance and having "Works on the Gameboy Advance" as a bullet point to sell the game to us.
-Future mod support is something that is off in the future, not now when I drop money on the game.
Yup, exactly. For the modders it's great, for the players that don't mod but are interested in mods it just means the game will get exciting in a few months/years rather than on release.
@Samiel
The iPad version is widely regarded as genuinely good value for money regardless of potential for BG3. I would see it more as "getting the game on iPad" as the primary reason with the potential for BG3 thrown in for free. With crowdfunding if a project doesn't happen you get your money back, so the way you describe it suggests if BG3 doesn't happen we should get refunds on this.
@Jolanthus
Good point regarding macs. I later started to clarify I wanted to specifically refer to the PC version since the thread was asking about retailer x vs retailer y rather than the merits of the game itself. But it's still worth mentioning that it being available officially supported on mac is a great selling point for mac users.
@tpowl
The problem with using this game to test interest in BG3, as I have previously mentioned, is that it's not a new game. It's a rerelease of a game that has been rereleased for far less money by the competition and readily available from a multitude of sources over the years. This will be a good gauge of interest as to whether people will buy touched up versions of old games, but it doesn't at all show interest in a brand new experience. There's plenty of players that would buy BG3 without hesitation that may not be interested at all in a rerelease of the old games, no matter how well done they are.
@veevito
A lot of people are saying that having the game ready to play 'as is' without having to fix it with mods is reason enough to buy the game, and perhaps that may even hold true for me at some point. Especially with BG2 it can become a nightmare when you have 25 mods installed and one of those mods conflicts with another one but you have no idea what it is. Having the game 'just work' would be great, but I also think it's a very high price for offering the game fixed. I've said it a few times before but if the game was also available on PC with all the fixes and additional content but $14.99 or $4.99 for previous owners of the game then I think it would be totally worth it.
I still think investment in the hopes of BG3 is gonna end up with disappointment. The terrible contract combined with an extremely small team and limited financial support seems to lend itself to revival projects like this rather than any actual new game development. I am really not confident a BG3 ever will happen unless there is some seriously strong profits gained from these releases, way higher than predictions from the combined license holders.
@kraed, I want to address the last line of the quote - at a quick search at the Internet, I came across this: As we know that they plan to add another Plot-related quest ( Adventure y ) - I think it is safe to a assume that they will add new areas to a new map, I want to add that the Devs are very quiet everything regarding the world map - although I asked and open a thread about it.
Although its purely speculation, I have high hopes, only time will tell :-)
source:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4dreye/20120620
For me the price is reasonable and Im more than happy to shell out for what im getting. Partly because mod clutter annoys me a bit, and having alot of good stuff on one package is nice. I'll reserve judgement on the new content until ive played it.. It could be terrible, though at the same time it could be totally awesome.
I meant specifically areas that are attached to the current game world that you can explore into, rather than stand alone disconnected areas ala BG2. Of course they are making new maps but I would like these maps to slot into the world naturally. To use a BG one example, in TOTSC you go to that northern town (I forget the name sorry) but then you're immediately sent off to some frosty cave complex that is disconnected from the world in the middle of nowhere. That's not the sort of progressive exploration I would like, since it feels like it is not actually a part of the world.