Why purchase the BG: EE over the GOG version?
kraed
Member Posts: 60
As per the discussion title.
Edit for insight: I will intentionally play devil's advocate on both the pros and cons offered by people in this thread. I'm on the fence to buy the game but also want this game to be succesful. Being the DA hopefully encourages debate.
I'm a big fan of the Baldur's Gate games and have loved the series ever since I first bought BG1 (back in those old 90s giant cardboard boxes!), however I simply can't get my head around the Enhanced Edition. I'll admit when I first heard the announcements I was expecting a fully remade game in a modern engine rather than the current offerings, but that's my fault for expecting too much I suppose.
I've been reading through the forums and the (limited) information on the main site to try and uncover what is in the EE because I thought I was missing something, but I'm not sure I am now. Correct me if I'm mistaken here but essentially the offering is: new resolution support/zooming, a refined (but as yet unseen) UI, a tutu style port into the BG2 engine, bug fixes, some new characters, a new character kit, a few new quests and a new arena-stlye dungeon that is standalone from the main game. All for $20. What we absolute are not getting are any changes to the graphics or original cast of characters or quests, since this seems to be part of the bizarre contract agreement for the EE. (Is this right? I've read a lot of people saying this but not seen anyone actually confirm it).
It all sounds pretty good on paper for the most part, but the problem I have with this: all of this - except for the resolution support/zooming - is already available, for half the money (or less). The game is almost 14 years old now and had a decent modding community when it was still relatively young. We all know about the tutu mod enhancing BG1 into BG2's engine, so the porting job is hardly a selling point. There's plenty of mods that include new quests, new characters, new classes and new dungeons, and since these mods aren't under frankly rubbish contracts they actually let you interact with and/or modify the main character and original supporting cast. Since we know The Black Pits is just cookie-cutter arena content, it's not as if this is anything hugely special that only an experienced development team could create. If this was coming out around the same time as Baldur's Gate I could understand it (and fully justify all of it), but it's not. It's 14 years later. I'm sure this project is being developed with the best of intentions - if not the best of contracts - but in its current state all of the extra content doesn't feel any different to readily available mods made 10 years ago by equally passionate fans for free.
It's also a massive pet peeve of mine having the first game set in the baldur's gate region using the equipment and models from the amn region. The amnish soldiers in BG1 have a very distinctive style when you bump into them near the mines, and this is completely lost when absolutely everyone has the same curvy stylised gear to begin with. The old BG1 style gear just looked far more appropriate for the setting, even if it was more 'generic'. Unfortunately this seems to be a problem with every update to BG1 using the BG2 engine, so I'll have this problem everywhere I look but it doesn't mean I don't have to dislike it every time it happens.
Also a quick extra mention to bug fixes: whilst I appreciate Overhaul aren't the original team that made the game, fixes to bugs should never be a selling point. If bugs exist which negatively affect a user's playing experience it should be fixed anyway as part of the ongoing development process, not as part of a premium update
So in essence we're paying $10 for.. resolutions and zooming? I don't doubt some of you will say "That's enough for me!" and that's fine, but I'm asking here what sells this to the average gamer over the otherwise much cheaper versions available elsewhere.
I'm expecting torches and pitchforks here, so don't misunderstand my intentions with this thread. I am not trying to find reasons to dislike this or attack the developers (in fact I want the opposite - I want to be convinced enough to get this!) but I really can't justify $10 for resolution support. I've looked at other threads discussing the same issues but they mostly seem to be rather the black and white "You should just be thankful we have anything" or "I hate this because it's not what I want" threads. That isn't helpful at all. There's absolutely nothing wrong with challenging something (constructively) before spending money on it - it is the duty of the developers to sell their game to us, it's not up to us to dive in the deep end and hope for the best.
If you're able to convince me that it's worth it I don't doubt there will be many other people on the fence you can easily convince with the same reasoning too.
Also since I almost know someone will say it: please nobody argue that $10 is not a lot of money - just because it is not a lot of money for you that doesn't mean it is not a lot of money for someone in completely different circumstances to you.
Edit for insight: I will intentionally play devil's advocate on both the pros and cons offered by people in this thread. I'm on the fence to buy the game but also want this game to be succesful. Being the DA hopefully encourages debate.
I'm a big fan of the Baldur's Gate games and have loved the series ever since I first bought BG1 (back in those old 90s giant cardboard boxes!), however I simply can't get my head around the Enhanced Edition. I'll admit when I first heard the announcements I was expecting a fully remade game in a modern engine rather than the current offerings, but that's my fault for expecting too much I suppose.
I've been reading through the forums and the (limited) information on the main site to try and uncover what is in the EE because I thought I was missing something, but I'm not sure I am now. Correct me if I'm mistaken here but essentially the offering is: new resolution support/zooming, a refined (but as yet unseen) UI, a tutu style port into the BG2 engine, bug fixes, some new characters, a new character kit, a few new quests and a new arena-stlye dungeon that is standalone from the main game. All for $20. What we absolute are not getting are any changes to the graphics or original cast of characters or quests, since this seems to be part of the bizarre contract agreement for the EE. (Is this right? I've read a lot of people saying this but not seen anyone actually confirm it).
It all sounds pretty good on paper for the most part, but the problem I have with this: all of this - except for the resolution support/zooming - is already available, for half the money (or less). The game is almost 14 years old now and had a decent modding community when it was still relatively young. We all know about the tutu mod enhancing BG1 into BG2's engine, so the porting job is hardly a selling point. There's plenty of mods that include new quests, new characters, new classes and new dungeons, and since these mods aren't under frankly rubbish contracts they actually let you interact with and/or modify the main character and original supporting cast. Since we know The Black Pits is just cookie-cutter arena content, it's not as if this is anything hugely special that only an experienced development team could create. If this was coming out around the same time as Baldur's Gate I could understand it (and fully justify all of it), but it's not. It's 14 years later. I'm sure this project is being developed with the best of intentions - if not the best of contracts - but in its current state all of the extra content doesn't feel any different to readily available mods made 10 years ago by equally passionate fans for free.
It's also a massive pet peeve of mine having the first game set in the baldur's gate region using the equipment and models from the amn region. The amnish soldiers in BG1 have a very distinctive style when you bump into them near the mines, and this is completely lost when absolutely everyone has the same curvy stylised gear to begin with. The old BG1 style gear just looked far more appropriate for the setting, even if it was more 'generic'. Unfortunately this seems to be a problem with every update to BG1 using the BG2 engine, so I'll have this problem everywhere I look but it doesn't mean I don't have to dislike it every time it happens.
Also a quick extra mention to bug fixes: whilst I appreciate Overhaul aren't the original team that made the game, fixes to bugs should never be a selling point. If bugs exist which negatively affect a user's playing experience it should be fixed anyway as part of the ongoing development process, not as part of a premium update
So in essence we're paying $10 for.. resolutions and zooming? I don't doubt some of you will say "That's enough for me!" and that's fine, but I'm asking here what sells this to the average gamer over the otherwise much cheaper versions available elsewhere.
I'm expecting torches and pitchforks here, so don't misunderstand my intentions with this thread. I am not trying to find reasons to dislike this or attack the developers (in fact I want the opposite - I want to be convinced enough to get this!) but I really can't justify $10 for resolution support. I've looked at other threads discussing the same issues but they mostly seem to be rather the black and white "You should just be thankful we have anything" or "I hate this because it's not what I want" threads. That isn't helpful at all. There's absolutely nothing wrong with challenging something (constructively) before spending money on it - it is the duty of the developers to sell their game to us, it's not up to us to dive in the deep end and hope for the best.
If you're able to convince me that it's worth it I don't doubt there will be many other people on the fence you can easily convince with the same reasoning too.
Also since I almost know someone will say it: please nobody argue that $10 is not a lot of money - just because it is not a lot of money for you that doesn't mean it is not a lot of money for someone in completely different circumstances to you.
Post edited by kraed on
10
Comments
Though, honestly, the greatest enhancement of all is the promise of improved multiplayer functionality over manual TCP/IP protocols of old.
It's the same as those special edition DVDs that cost twice as much as the last set they keep releasing over and over with 'new' features (I'm looking at you star wars). Yes it's nice to include those extra cast interviews, behind the scenes, deleted scenes etc that weren't in the previous releases but it's stuff we've seen before done by other people and usually freely available (legally!) on the internet. What makes this content - which is also essentially fan content - double the price of the game?
edit: typo fixes
The art style problem (Amnian soldiers) has been adressed, as far as I understood. Overhaul are trying to get the original BG1 style into the BG2 engine (see the threads about the 1PP mod).
I will most likely buy this game, just because I'm a huge fan. However, I would feel better if the devs put out a detailed statement explaining a few issues (such as the disconnected arena mode, the blurry new areas or the price point). Even if everything stays the same afterwards, it might help people decide on whether they want to join in or hold off on buying this.
http://www.baldursgate.com/images/ipad/screen02.jpg
To put things into perspective I picked up Binding of Issac, Limbo, Trine 2 and Legend of Grimrock over the steam summer sale, and spent less than $20 total...
Value aside, I appriciate what the devs are trying to do with the entire BG series.
What is really important is the following: Beamdog should start again to argue with the original right holders that adding new stuff does not damage their original content, if for example some real big quests like that arena mod would be put INTO Baldurs Gate Enhanced, or some additional Banters between the original Characters and/or the new ones - It only could help that the Enhanced Ediction sells better.
And if more content is inside, the price is for much people more justified - or.. if the content is more then enough and VERY good, people would perhaps also pay a bit more.
And i know.. the Game is old, so why paying more money as it will already costs - But... Content thanks to a Contract which is more flexible CAN be a gamechanger for opinions, even for the money bag
I like to think of BGEE as a stand-alone expansion that includes all the original content; 20$ is a low price to pay for an expansion and few expansions bring as many improvements to the original game as BGEE.
BGEE will also bring renewed interest for D&D, tactical party-based combat in RPGs, and paves the way for BG2EE and eventually BG3. All that by some of the original BG1 developers who really understand what BG is about and what it stands for. I don't think there's anything more awesome happening in the video game industry at the moment and I had stopped hoping for it a long time ago.
As a Mac user, I'd gladly pay for a streamlined, digital copy of this game I love -- even for the sole reason that it saves me the hassle of installing the game with a porting wrapper (for OSX), and then trying to figure out how to make that work with BGT and other mods (widescreen, bugfixes, etc.). New characters and content is just icing on the cake for me. Delicious icing.
Tbh, I would gladly pay the measly 20$ without the new content just to get a fully stable, compatible and more up to date engine, as well as support for higher resolutions, multiplayer etc. The extra content is really just a bonus, and considering we will see a remade BG2, and then hopefully a BG3 (or a brand new title), I'll gladly support the guys doing this!
Considering I'm also going for the Ipad version, I guess I just have to skip a beer next time I'm out to make up for the extreme cost of another 10 dollars... Boo will cry otherwise
I will talk about supporting the games you like.
Whether games are art or not is a tricky question, not because the answer is difficult but because of what it implies. A common opposition will put on one side the "profitable" production that will appeal to most, and on the other side works that will have a fewer audience because they reach for something more than pure pleasure (however, whether pleasure is our universal motivation or not is a very tricky question). They may be challenging, innovative, or anything that requires a little time, and maybe a little knowledge and a particular taste to be appreciated. You can't clearly divide any sort of media like this, but it remains a visible pattern.
We are now in a capitalistic, consumerist society that is very likely to prefer the first model of creation, because it is profitable and easy to make. With a little intuition in human psychology, you can tell what a certain group of people will like, and how they would like it to be, and how to make them crave that product. (Well, the creation is in this case easy, but don't get me wrong, the market is a merciless battlefield and following the right recipee isn't enough.)
The problem is that people like me - and I'm sure there's a lot of us - are left aside. We want quality, we want brilliance. We don't want one new game per year, Final Fantasy 14, 15, 16, 17, we just want to go through a wonderful experience, something that pushes the boundaries of video games, something that questions itself and that questions the world, too. Quality over quantity, maybe? We find that excellence is rare in the industry and that it should be rewarded.
I'm broke, so why should I buy the game for a second time? To show my support. It's a form of vote, a way of saying to the games industry "hey, I'm here, and I really like this".
A GOG game bought is a vote for DRM-less gaming,
BGEE is a vote for the Overhaul team to continue their work on developing old-style isometric rpg's. And if you like old-style isometric rpg's, it's worth spending money on BGEE: because if it turn's out to be financiable feasible, they will start creating a whole new BG3 game, probably not about the Bhaalspawn (the story is finished and rounded with the ending of TOB, so I've heard and yet have to experience myself), but with the same setting (the City of Baldur's Gate? The Swordcoast? Somewhere else in Faêrun?) with the same kind of isometric tactical gameplay, storyline, NPC involvement and atmosphere. That's what you vote for.
DRM is a curse just like modern 3D roleplaying is, with it's tactical shallowness, so both buying the GOG version and buying the BGEE version is a good thing to do. And thus, the best thing to do is buy and experience both and let your money say: goddamn, I want DRM-free isometric roleplaying. And live in a world where customers show it's something they're willing to pay for and so, could be done.
Just throw some dice to see it happen Beamdog will make their games DRM-free, but if the games are free to install without hassle, once the installer made a check to see if you're legitimately downloading and afterwards leaves you in peace to enjoy your gaming without further online checks, it's a good way to go.
No, this is absolutely not being missed out. This was the point I made in the OP: is it reasonable to charge us twice as much (or more) than the competition for a technical upgrade? Some would argue yes - yourself included - but I would bet money that that's a minority viewpoint. There's *definitely* a market for this sort of thing, but GOG is doing it for significantly cheaper. Is it worth it for budget pricing? Sure. Is it worth it for $20? Well that's what this thread is asking.
That's fine, you're buying this to state a point of view rather than for the game though. Doesn't that instantly undermine the game and the efforts of the development team? You're saying "I want this game for what it stands for, not because it's a good purchase". You might think you're saying you support Baldur's Gate and/or EE, but you're also saying you support companies shelling out rehashed releases of their old games for more money (even if this is not what you intended to do). I am not saying Overhaul are doing this - but this is what the moneygrubbing publishers of today will think (and act upon).
If you want to support a developer financially then support them financially. Ask for a donation link. By buying a game you don't necessarily want to show your support for a developer and/or stance of development you are artifically inflating sales and damaging the developer in the long run. You're making it seem like there is more interest than there is, and that isn't support at all.
This thread is to establish whether or not $20 is value for money for the content that Overhaul is offering. Showing your support for a developer is not value for money - the developer is gaining from your money, not you. Whilst you can hope this means more and better games in the future that is just a hope. There's no reason to believe Overhaul won't get an equally bad contract for the other games too. What if you buy this game just to show support, and the next game turns out the same? Do you just show support until you get what you want? Why is it unreasonable to ask for justification why there's value *now* rather than on the nth game in the future. I would much rather buy the game I want for the right price now then invest into potentially getting a game that might be what I want pending legal discussions in the distant future .
Finally about GOG. "Purchasing from Gog is a vote for DRM free gaming". How about purchasing from gog is getting a game cheaper than anywhere else that works on your modern computer, and isn't otherwise available? I buy games from GOG because I want the games, not because I'm trying to undermine EA or Activision. For the most part GOG is rather unique - they are the only ones offering these games in a package that works on Windows 7, for a highly competitive price point, and with a convenient library and download system that doesn't have mandatory installation of a ton of third party programs that you don't want (hi Origin).
Baldur's Gate: EE is doing none of this. There are already releases by other companies that make the game playable on modern computers for half the price or less. It isn't comparable when you're talking about someone buying the games to play the games rather than to show support for someone.
The 3 new NPCs are individually presented as if each were a separate "feature" to create the appearance of quantity, the Pit seems tacked on, zooming appears gimmicky (perhaps useful for non-PC platforms with small screens), almost all of the core content is "locked".
However there's a lot of good stuff as well and we were told (we'll see if it holds up) there will be quite a bit of free dlc and post release support.
In the end it's worth it for me because, I'm ashamed to admit, I never finished BG 1. I played BG2 + ToB first and after that BG1 seemed a bit underwhelming. The point is the game will be relatively fresh for me and it along with all the additional content and fixes will make it worthwhile (I've already pre-ordered). But I can understand the reservations many are having (veteran players especially).
Also, I'm hoping that, despite the setbacks, this will pave a way to more good things like better future enhancements and maybe even a completely new isometric game. Hopefully those mentions of a potential BG3 aren't just marketing bait.
Sorry, but $10 is NOT a lot of money, unless you live in a developing country. the GOG version is also $10 ....though it has none of the improvements or updated content...it won't work on tablets, or have higher resolution than 640x480.
Now, you seem to be getting more into a discussion about the value of digital content. You get what you pay for I always say.. Original content created by professionals has a standard. If the quality is there, people will pay for it. I have no doubt that if BG doesn't sell at $10 or $20 on pc in sufficient quantities, therewould be adjustments.
I create content for a living so I realize how much effort it takes to produce something of quality. In this day and age, there are no other RPGs out there that even come close to the quality and scope of the BG saga. For that alone' it is worth it to me. As with anything, if the price is too high for you, don't buy. It's a free country.
I'm just going to touch upon two of your initial points that, in my opinion, are a bit of a logical fallacy:
You said:
"There's plenty of mods that include new quests, new characters, new classes and new dungeons, and since these mods aren't under frankly rubbish contracts they actually let you interact with and/or modify the main character and original supporting cast."
But those mods do not offer The Black Pits, Rasaad, Neera and Dorn the Blackguard. Now, if you want to argue about the quality of these BGEE features, personally I'll have to wait for the release of the game before I can offer a fundamented opinion, but I don't think its correct to dismiss these features just because "there are plenty of mods out there", mods themselves that possibly (probably?) will also work with BGEE.
You said:
"Also a quick extra mention to bug fixes: whilst I appreciate Overhaul aren't the original team that made the game, fixes to bugs should never be a selling point. If bugs exist which negatively affect a user's playing experience it should be fixed anyway as part of the ongoing development process, not as part of a premium update"
Actually, a big selling point of updated products is that they work better than their predecessors. Bioware certainly isn't going to fix the bugs and its good to have a version of BG that doesn't require a fixpack to work properly. Hopefully Overhaul will be able to iron out all of the bugs.
$18,- is not an unusual price for a game at it's first release (and it's only €15,- with current exchange rates), but most games do tend to drop in price to half of what it was in only two years time (I'm betting on that with €49,- Skyrim), so to get more value for money, just wait for 2 years. No-one's forcing you to buy now. In 2 years it will be cheaper, all new bugs that surfaced from the effort of bug-ridding and making more moddable the old game, will be fixed with patches, more DLC will be available free and more mods will be made compatible, if that turns out to be needed. So if you're not happy with the price now, just wait for a better price/quality in a few years.
Meanwhile I will be experiencing first hand what they've done and enjoy enhancements to a game I liked so much anyway, I already got 4 copies of it (4 disc boxset, 4 disc boxset for obsessive fear of disc damage, 1 GOG edition when BG got digital and a €1,50 original cardboard box with booklet and original SOA CD's I found at a second hand store). Something you like, you spend money on, just like a wife.
As to false information given by spending money on this: I think most people willing to spend money on BGEE will spend money on BG3 as well, if it will be made and has the same quality, so the sales do tell what Beamdog can count on for a future release. And it buys the devs their groceries while they're working on it.
So, yes, the value proposition for PC owners *who have already played BG1* is highly questionable -- but a player that has never played BG1 before is getting a great deal (vs. purchasing from GOG).
I have two real sticking points for buying it though. The first is the multiplayer. I guess not a lot needs to be said about that. The second reason is that the game is supposedly going to be very easy to mod. I believe that there will be a lot of good content coming out from the community, and due to the improvements to technology, they should run smoothly. With free dlc and the community modding, there should be tons of extra hours that justify the $20 dollars that the game costs on PC.
Also I don't have an agenda promoting GOG, and it's kind of insulting that you try and argue a case by attacking on stuff like that. I said that in my opinion GOG is offering virtually the same deal for better, and that's all. Does one need to 'have an agenda' to have an opinion that something is better than something else? I think I made it abundantly clear that I want to buy a game from a place where it is good value for money for the game I am buying, and that's all. I mention GOG because GOG is the direct competition charging less money, and in a thread about value for money how can you not mention the competition?
@Tanthalas
Fair point regarding the inherent value of content. You're right it is wrong to judge content based on other content, but this wasn't my intention. It's more to do with the fact that this new content is fan content, just like all the other fan content. Whilst there are some of the original devs the simple fact is that this is a different company working on this game by contract, 14 years later. It isn't the main developers. This is for all intents and purposes a fan project that is asking us to pay for their fan content, content which is almost completely isolated from the main game due to their contract.
Also re the bugfixes: the difference here is that Overhaul are charging us more than the competition for bug fixes that, for the most part, were already fixed by other people. I'd point to The Witcher series as a good way of doing an 'Enhanced Edition' including bug fixes, without making the game feel like a cash grab. Yes they completely use the enhancements as a selling point, but they are also offered to the original purchasers for free. GOG offers a relatively similar deal (bug fixing/updating old games) but they also charge significantly less than this.
@MReed
Yes I certainly agree about the new gamers. The problem I see here - will new gamers be interested in what is just a 14 year old game? I am not convinced simply making the game work and adding a few bells and whistles will make a new gamer suddenly take interest in a franchise that they hadn't looked at before, especially considering the lack of advertising on this game.
@NeoDragon
Unfortunately we will never really know if the company can make a BG3 by doing this, because all they are doing is upgrading somebody else's work. The additional content is not allowed to integrate properly into the main game so it will always stick out as not fitting in, no matter how well done it is. There's a woooorld of difference between making a game and patching up someone else's game. Also if 'generic arena' is in the spirit of Baldur's Gate I'd be fearful for what is to come for BG3.
edit: little add
It's not nice when a mod throws a monster that has cast improved invisibility on itself and is casting level 5+ spells against your level 3 party or gives insanely powerful itens to your party like a vorpal sword or a book that doubles the XP of any single classed mage, for instance.
I normally just ctrl-y the insanely hard monsters or ignore such itens, but I shouldn't be forced to do so in a balanced, professionally written mod.
The storylines in mods are often unprofessional and completly disconeccted from the story.
We have some GREAT mods out there, but certainly many lack a professional feel with a good storyline, itens thant won't unbalance the game, etc...
I am really curious to see the new quests and how they will fit the story we already know.
*ahem*
About the money, I understand. We're a family with only one working parent with a mortgage and we mostly have to plan and discuss our purchases. I am a pretty conscientious consumer though (no more Chick-Fil-A for me) and in this example I a) want to show my support for a game, and a type of game I am passionate about.
and b) I think Baldur's Gate was always a project of passion more than money. I want to give Beamdog a chance to show me what they can do. I know its very limited with the contracts, but if they show the loyalty and the passion the same as I have I will definitely be waiting for their future products. I'm sure that's most of the point of the exercise but its a gamble right? These are some high expectations!
To me one of Dragon Age's worst disappointments was everyone calling it BG's "spiritual successor", it conjured up all kinds of expectations that couldn't be fulfilled that stopped me from enjoying the differences it did have to offer. It's a great game in its own right, but I want competition in the arena, not necessarily graphically but in story (and character) strength and consistency.
I will also admit, Bioware's glory greatly dimmed in my eyes with the whole EA business because I just don't respect profits above all.
Again with the expectations (and passions), I know, but knowing nothing about Beamdog I hope its a great place to work - I once saw a mini documentary with some people working on DA2 monsters and I was quite literally flabbergasted, dark boring lifeless offices, is hardly the environment to invoke creativity. Yes it's an odd comparison (of size and scope I'm sure) but I'm thinking in terms of potential. Fostering the right environment to get the most out of people working on projects, to create electrifying products. It doesn't have to cost a fortune but it does take commitment.
That's why I'm ready to put my money down on this. Passion and commitment, time will tell if they have it.