Remember back when I wanted to mod the epilogue files? Ah, to be young and naive again.
I disagree with everything you said there.
Dorn: Here is a guy who was planning on taking on his entire ex-gang by himself, leading him to several fights where he needed Charname to win. Then in BG2 he was planning on attacking a wedding, held inside a paladin HQ, all by himself. Finally, he ropes Charname into attacking the Celestial realms themselves.
That is not a person who is going to have a good ending, especially when the powerful godchild and co are not there to help him. He also makes it abundantly clear that he doesn't trust people enough to make his own party. How would you expect him to end up?
Cernd: His ending suited him perfectly. Here is a guy who runs out on his pregnant wife and abandons her so he can be a druid...leaving aside the fact that he could have brought her with him. He then gets the child back from the evil foster family...and immediately dumps the kid with the other druids so he can go adventuring again. He follows Charname on a quest which doesn't involve Cernd at all, a quest which takes him as far away from home and his responsibilities as possible.
Keldorn *wants* to leave adventuring behind to be with his family, it is just that duty calls. Cernd *wants* to leave his family behind to go adventuring. I liked how his mistakes finally came back to haunt him, and he died to correct them.
Raasad: He is a tragic character. But the endings show something important about him, something which his entire quest arc was trying to impart. His quest for vengeance is destroying him, and making him into someone that he doesn't want to be. If you can convince him to let go of his hatred and his obsession, then he gets a happy ending where he leads a pacifistic life surrounded by people whom he can help. Raasad can be happy. But if he obsesses on Algoroth, it will lead to his end. I liked that.
Viconia: Again, I liked that she died. She made too much of a name for herself being an enemy of the drow. Super high level cleric who turns her back on Lloth, helps defeat drow plans to destroy Sudanessar and wreck the elven pantheon, and then publicly walks around on the surface, being a poster child for any other drow who would want to defect? What did she expect was going to happen?
By some characters having unhappy endings, it makes all of the endings more powerful. It makes it more *real*, so to speak. I wouldn't go around giving everyone a happy ending, because it would cheapen them all.
Everything I said? That has to be some kind of achievement. Anyway...
You're putting words in my mouth, @Grum. I never said I wanted Dorn to have a happy ending. I said I wanted him to have a satisfying one. Look at Korgan: he almost certainly died in his ending, but it was incredibly satisfying because it was definitely within character for him to kill a clan chief, blame it on the drow, make himself the new chief and lead his followers on a campaign of carnage. Not only did he get the bloodshed he craved, he probably went down in style and by choosing the super-ultra-mega evil drow as his targets he got to go down in history as a badass crusader. Bittersweet, not happy, but definitely satisfying.
Dorn's ending features them dragging him back to get convicted for slaughtering the village of Barrow. That's ONE bloody village massacre - what about all the other things he did? And for that matter, anyone who played the first EE game will know that he was ALREADY convicted of that - it was a group effort with his old adventuring party and part of the reason he became a blackguard. And after all the paladins we fought together, all the celestials, the two ****ing Silver Dragons? It completely ruins the feeling of accomplishing all that if he could keep getting captured and eventually killed by one ordinary woman. And go check - his two endings are almost word-for-word identical, except for some differences to accommodate the romance and moving around of sentences. Do you expect me to be happy with seeing him go down like a chump after my Charname ascends to godhood and promised to make him his/her champion? Don't mistake me - he'd still die in any endings I gave him. The difference is that I'd try to give him endings that took his decision about whether or not to remain a blackguard, whether or not he was romanced by us and if he got the championship he wanted into account. The EE version of Ascension gave him a variation on his ending for choosing not to be a blackguard and a secret ending for those who added an extra option to the dialogue tree which mentioned choosing Dorn as their champion. So yeah, that's that.
As for Cernd? Yeah, I get it, neglectful father gets to realise he's been an arsehole to his family - but why choose to bring him along, help him with his personal quest and then bring him through to the end of the game if all that effort is basically met with, "And Cernd learned nothing from his personal quest and had no character development or nuthin'" I dislike it for the same reason I dislike how Qara from NWN2 gets one moment of niceness and possible character development (orc caves, if you bring her to the bit with the zombie mages being made from Academy students) but remains completely static otherwise. Why go to the trouble of bringing her along if it's not going to come to anything? And I should clarify - my idea for him would be multiple endings, which one being based on the player having the opportunity to convince him to give up druiding to raise his kid full-time or at least making him realise which was more important. Anyone who failed to do either would get that ending of his son turning bitter and becoming an evil wizard. Call me crazy, but I want to believe he can change. If Sarevok can become Chaotic Good, Cernd can make changes in his lifestyle to accommodate being a father.
Rasaad and Viconia, I'll answer together for time. In this case, my beef with their endings is kind of a meta thing. I know for a damn fact that Alorgoth wasn't allowed to get killed off by WoTC even though he's noone special, which I've mentioned before. And you say he should give it up, but the endings imply that he does. It's still not good enough. The Dark Moon have him either framed or assassinated. If I go to the trouble of romancing him, and witnessing his and Charname's developing relationship in its highs and lows, moving through his lingering issues, Charname's bad dreams, a break-up-make-up moment and have him promise to make her the happiest woman around... Well, it's a lot of effort, and I want to believe there was a better possible outcome than the two of them retiring, settling down and having a big family only to randomly get shived, just rubbing in how untouchable Alorgoth is, and have their poor children driven to repeat the cycle of revenge. Moreover, the would-be fix to Viconia's ending, wherein an epic-level cleric gets killed by a bunch of stupid assassins, was that it was a super-potent poison or something. I mean, I get wanting to give her a tragic ending, but she's the only vanilla romance to get one - Aerie's is all sunshine and rainbows, Jaheira's is ultimately a happy one and Anomen's is a typical romantic "And they all lived happily ever after" number. Why should it be different for Viconia, who doesn't get a tragic sendoff if you don't romance her?And as for that thing you mentioned about her being a poster-child for drow who want to be nice? How's that working out for Drizzt Do'Urden, the real poster-child for drow who want to be nice? He seems to be doing quite well for himself, when jerks aren't killing him for his epic gear.
Whew, ranting/replying is hard work. If you didn't pick up on all that, it's because I can't convey it on a Imgflip pie chart.
Heheheheheh. Yeah, this isn't really the place for that discussion. Sorry about that, u gaiz; it's my fault for getting the ball rolling by producing that pie chart in the first place.
Heheheheheh. Yeah, this isn't really the place for that discussion. Sorry about that, u gaiz; it's my fault for getting the ball rolling by producing that pie chart in the first place.
You made a compelling argument for Dorn. I'm not convinced on the rest, but I've changed my opinion on him. Well argued.
Remember back when I wanted to mod the epilogue files? Ah, to be young and naive again.
that.
Viconia: Again, I liked that she died.all.
This is why we can no longer be friends, I would've rather her and Charname simply vanish with their child. Disappear away from current world to qho knows where.
Remember back when I wanted to mod the epilogue files? Ah, to be young and naive again.
that.
Viconia: Again, I liked that she died.all.
This is why we can no longer be friends, I would've rather her and Charname simply vanish with their child. Disappear away from current world to qho knows where.
I'd have thought that you would have prefered her to die, and for Charname to start a friendship with Adalon. Both of them had suffered greatly from the drow, having lost loved ones to them. That friendship would turn into a romantic relationship, eventually leading to BG3, where Charname would have the racial option of being a half-dragon.
Remember back when I wanted to mod the epilogue files? Ah, to be young and naive again.
that.
Viconia: Again, I liked that she died.all.
This is why we can no longer be friends, I would've rather her and Charname simply vanish with their child. Disappear away from current world to qho knows where.
I'd have thought that you would have prefered her to die, and for Charname to start a friendship with Adalon. Both of them had suffered greatly from the drow, having lost loved ones to them. That friendship would turn into a romantic relationship, eventually leading to BG3, where Charname would have the racial option of being a half-dragon.
Touche sir, just touche!
Edit, I still don't like the idea of Vi dying before even getting to see her son's 10th birthday.
Heheheheheh. Yeah, this isn't really the place for that discussion. Sorry about that, u gaiz; it's my fault for getting the ball rolling by producing that pie chart in the first place.
hahahhahhahah, I love the eric cartman reference in there
Heheheheheh. Yeah, this isn't really the place for that discussion. Sorry about that, u gaiz; it's my fault for getting the ball rolling by producing that pie chart in the first place.
hahahhahhahah, I love the eric cartman reference in there
Holy crap! I made an Eric Cartman refrence? How the heck did I do that without even trying?!
Heheheheheh. Yeah, this isn't really the place for that discussion. Sorry about that, u gaiz; it's my fault for getting the ball rolling by producing that pie chart in the first place.
hahahhahhahah, I love the eric cartman reference in there
Holy crap! I made an Eric Cartman refrence? How the heck did I do that without even trying?!
Viconia's death makes very little sense, because, as an Epic level Cleric aligned to Shar, Viconia should be beyond the reach of anything but an Avatar of Lolth.
Lolth is the biggest god of the Drow pantheon, but Shar is one of the biggest gods on Faerun, and by the end of ToB, Viconia would be one of her highest level clerics.
A stupid poison should have been nullified easily. Even if it was some super special poison, Raise Death and Resurrection are common spells at the level CHARNAME and company play about at. Viconia should have been have been up and about and talking shit about Lolth within five minutes of her death.
On the other hand, I mostly play CHARNAME and Aerie pairings anyway. Retiring to live on the side of a mountain sounds pretty cosy.
As much as I hate Vickys death isn't Shar the the goddess of loss and darkness? as far I know Vicky wasn't actively spreading Shars word or very full of loss at the point of her death, hell if her alignment changed she wasn't even very much on the dark side of things anymore.
Shar is not the nicest of deities, so it is completely possible, that Vicky living a life of happiness, put her in disfavor with her goddess, thus no divine save from the poison.
It's still a really stupid end for the best character in the series, but this is the only possible reason I can think of for her to actually die to some crappy Lolth worshiper.
Comments
"The only hitpoint that matters is the last one."
Dorn: Here is a guy who was planning on taking on his entire ex-gang by himself, leading him to several fights where he needed Charname to win. Then in BG2 he was planning on attacking a wedding, held inside a paladin HQ, all by himself. Finally, he ropes Charname into attacking the Celestial realms themselves.
That is not a person who is going to have a good ending, especially when the powerful godchild and co are not there to help him. He also makes it abundantly clear that he doesn't trust people enough to make his own party. How would you expect him to end up?
Cernd: His ending suited him perfectly. Here is a guy who runs out on his pregnant wife and abandons her so he can be a druid...leaving aside the fact that he could have brought her with him. He then gets the child back from the evil foster family...and immediately dumps the kid with the other druids so he can go adventuring again. He follows Charname on a quest which doesn't involve Cernd at all, a quest which takes him as far away from home and his responsibilities as possible.
Keldorn *wants* to leave adventuring behind to be with his family, it is just that duty calls. Cernd *wants* to leave his family behind to go adventuring. I liked how his mistakes finally came back to haunt him, and he died to correct them.
Raasad: He is a tragic character. But the endings show something important about him, something which his entire quest arc was trying to impart. His quest for vengeance is destroying him, and making him into someone that he doesn't want to be. If you can convince him to let go of his hatred and his obsession, then he gets a happy ending where he leads a pacifistic life surrounded by people whom he can help. Raasad can be happy. But if he obsesses on Algoroth, it will lead to his end. I liked that.
Viconia: Again, I liked that she died. She made too much of a name for herself being an enemy of the drow. Super high level cleric who turns her back on Lloth, helps defeat drow plans to destroy Sudanessar and wreck the elven pantheon, and then publicly walks around on the surface, being a poster child for any other drow who would want to defect? What did she expect was going to happen?
By some characters having unhappy endings, it makes all of the endings more powerful. It makes it more *real*, so to speak. I wouldn't go around giving everyone a happy ending, because it would cheapen them all.
You're putting words in my mouth, @Grum. I never said I wanted Dorn to have a happy ending. I said I wanted him to have a satisfying one. Look at Korgan: he almost certainly died in his ending, but it was incredibly satisfying because it was definitely within character for him to kill a clan chief, blame it on the drow, make himself the new chief and lead his followers on a campaign of carnage. Not only did he get the bloodshed he craved, he probably went down in style and by choosing the super-ultra-mega evil drow as his targets he got to go down in history as a badass crusader. Bittersweet, not happy, but definitely satisfying.
Dorn's ending features them dragging him back to get convicted for slaughtering the village of Barrow. That's ONE bloody village massacre - what about all the other things he did? And for that matter, anyone who played the first EE game will know that he was ALREADY convicted of that - it was a group effort with his old adventuring party and part of the reason he became a blackguard. And after all the paladins we fought together, all the celestials, the two ****ing Silver Dragons? It completely ruins the feeling of accomplishing all that if he could keep getting captured and eventually killed by one ordinary woman. And go check - his two endings are almost word-for-word identical, except for some differences to accommodate the romance and moving around of sentences. Do you expect me to be happy with seeing him go down like a chump after my Charname ascends to godhood and promised to make him his/her champion? Don't mistake me - he'd still die in any endings I gave him. The difference is that I'd try to give him endings that took his decision about whether or not to remain a blackguard, whether or not he was romanced by us and if he got the championship he wanted into account. The EE version of Ascension gave him a variation on his ending for choosing not to be a blackguard and a secret ending for those who added an extra option to the dialogue tree which mentioned choosing Dorn as their champion. So yeah, that's that.
As for Cernd? Yeah, I get it, neglectful father gets to realise he's been an arsehole to his family - but why choose to bring him along, help him with his personal quest and then bring him through to the end of the game if all that effort is basically met with, "And Cernd learned nothing from his personal quest and had no character development or nuthin'" I dislike it for the same reason I dislike how Qara from NWN2 gets one moment of niceness and possible character development (orc caves, if you bring her to the bit with the zombie mages being made from Academy students) but remains completely static otherwise. Why go to the trouble of bringing her along if it's not going to come to anything? And I should clarify - my idea for him would be multiple endings, which one being based on the player having the opportunity to convince him to give up druiding to raise his kid full-time or at least making him realise which was more important. Anyone who failed to do either would get that ending of his son turning bitter and becoming an evil wizard. Call me crazy, but I want to believe he can change. If Sarevok can become Chaotic Good, Cernd can make changes in his lifestyle to accommodate being a father.
Rasaad and Viconia, I'll answer together for time. In this case, my beef with their endings is kind of a meta thing. I know for a damn fact that Alorgoth wasn't allowed to get killed off by WoTC even though he's noone special, which I've mentioned before. And you say he should give it up, but the endings imply that he does. It's still not good enough. The Dark Moon have him either framed or assassinated. If I go to the trouble of romancing him, and witnessing his and Charname's developing relationship in its highs and lows, moving through his lingering issues, Charname's bad dreams, a break-up-make-up moment and have him promise to make her the happiest woman around... Well, it's a lot of effort, and I want to believe there was a better possible outcome than the two of them retiring, settling down and having a big family only to randomly get shived, just rubbing in how untouchable Alorgoth is, and have their poor children driven to repeat the cycle of revenge. Moreover, the would-be fix to Viconia's ending, wherein an epic-level cleric gets killed by a bunch of stupid assassins, was that it was a super-potent poison or something. I mean, I get wanting to give her a tragic ending, but she's the only vanilla romance to get one - Aerie's is all sunshine and rainbows, Jaheira's is ultimately a happy one and Anomen's is a typical romantic "And they all lived happily ever after" number. Why should it be different for Viconia, who doesn't get a tragic sendoff if you don't romance her?And as for that thing you mentioned about her being a poster-child for drow who want to be nice? How's that working out for Drizzt Do'Urden, the real poster-child for drow who want to be nice? He seems to be doing quite well for himself, when jerks aren't killing him for his epic gear.
Whew, ranting/replying is hard work. If you didn't pick up on all that, it's because I can't convey it on a Imgflip pie chart.
Edit, I still don't like the idea of Vi dying before even getting to see her son's 10th birthday.
And there's a bunch more where that came from:
http://dndppf.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-royal-museum-of-d-memes.html
Inspired by the Dee's twitter.
Lolth is the biggest god of the Drow pantheon, but Shar is one of the biggest gods on Faerun, and by the end of ToB, Viconia would be one of her highest level clerics.
A stupid poison should have been nullified easily. Even if it was some super special poison, Raise Death and Resurrection are common spells at the level CHARNAME and company play about at. Viconia should have been have been up and about and talking shit about Lolth within five minutes of her death.
On the other hand, I mostly play CHARNAME and Aerie pairings anyway. Retiring to live on the side of a mountain sounds pretty cosy.
Shar is not the nicest of deities, so it is completely possible, that Vicky living a life of happiness, put her in disfavor with her goddess, thus no divine save from the poison.
It's still a really stupid end for the best character in the series, but this is the only possible reason I can think of for her to actually die to some crappy Lolth worshiper.