I agree with recklessheart, that Vic definitely can be one of the best tanks.. with the right equipment and buffs your really have a beast.. here's my "current" level 12 Vic..
@recklessheart Heh, well I don't claim to have all the right answers here, it's just based on my experience with using her. You have a point that putting her in the back only gets you one crappy attack with a sling while putting a good weapon like Crom Faeyr nets you one decent attack. But it means no one else can use that weapon, and surely you want your Crom Faeyrs and Flails of Ages hitting 8 times a round instead of 1 or 2? You can make Viconia herself a passable fighter by giving her these awesome items, but if you think of the party as a whole (I pretend it's one character with 12 weapon slots) then you'd want those weapons in a warrior slot rather than a cleric slot even if her contribution as an individual goes down.
I don't cast much with her either, and she tends to just sit in the middle of the party turning undead (if there are undead to be turned). That could be a downside if you like managing your characters but I already have my hands full directing my mages and fighters so I appreciate having one I don't need to babysit. Don't confuse her lack of action in combat with ineffectiveness - she wins fights on her own by bringing an army of hasted skeleton warriors. These guys are the real tanks here, because besides being tough and hitting hard they boast a host of immunities. Think of it this way - skeleton warriors have something like 80 hp. 80 hp of damage absorbed, for a level 3 spell! Compare that to the heals you get. If you play this way, between a couple of fighters and a couple of skeletons there isn't much room for her to jump into the fray anyways.
I know it's a bummer having to wait until level 15 but the little skellys aren't too shabby either. They're immune to cloudkill, for one... At these lower levels it's understandable to throw her into melee though, BG1 style. I'm guessing many people who praise her as a front liner used her this way in the previous game and carried on doing so here.
Another note about casting - in trickier fights she usually has her hands full replacing buffs that get dispelled, summoning more skeletons or casting Heal. She might not cast every round but if you lose your Resist Fear or Chaotic Commands, being able to replace it immediately is very helpful.
Because he is a 7 level fighter who cannot get more levels in that class. In advance game, in tob, he is weak too weak to use in attack vs a lot of enemies. My experience.
Anything more fighter levels would get you, Holy Power can provide; and then there's Righteous Magic, and Draw Upon Holy Might, and Shield of Faith, and so on, and so forth.
So, you say he is a good character with a good combination of abilities. But still, not a great fighter nor a great cleric. A great character. We agree.
No, I think this means he's a very good fighter AND a very good cleric
Do you find her magic is very useful mid-combat? If so, what spells do you use?
Honestly, I'd like someone to answer this as well. I'm horrible at playing clerics (honestly, I'm horrible at Baldur's Gate despite it being the only game I really play other than FIFA and Super Smash Bros) because I always find their spells have too long casting times to do damage or heal. So I end up just using them for summons at higher levels, or to buff and fight (probably why I prefer Anomen as he is the better front-liner and can dual wield)
Thats another way that Anomen is a better fighter than Viconia: I always have him dual wield with some awesome blunt weapons.
Clerics aren't meant to fight in the front line during the whole battle. Your first wave are your fighters. If those get low, you can try to have your clerics draw some aggro. Best you use them to buff your party beforehand, like protection from evil or defensive harmony. These buffs also cover some of the buffs needed for the clerics themselfes. Then there are some spells with a short term effect, like righteous magic or draw upon holy might. Those should be cast at the very beginning of a difficult combat, if you do not cast summons or disabling spells like hold and stuff. While your fighters march of to stand in the way of whatever is scariest, your clerics can clobber some other, weaker targets. If a bowman is hurting your fighter while he concentrates on a big monster, have your cleric attack the archer in CC. A tactic Viconia excels in, due to her high magic resistance, is to disrupt enemy spellcasters. The cleric does not need to kill them, just disrupt some spells or draw the spells upon himself, while your fighters finish their enemies. At least that's how I use my clerics, though I mainly use Viconia.
One other trick is to have them heal one of your party members. You only need to keep that person standing still until the cast animation has started. Then you can move him and he will be healed from afar.
Hmmn, Jaheira wielding blackblood and belm until HLA's then switch to staff + whirldwind. Anomen with flail of the ages + defender of easthaven mmmmmmnmnnnnnnn... Viconia is more of an magic tank late in the game but wouldn't bother giving her good melee weapons yeah as someone has already pointed out. Dex and armor class become pointless later in the game but are helpful early.
Because he is a 7 level fighter who cannot get more levels in that class. In advance game, in tob, he is weak too weak to use in attack vs a lot of enemies. My experience.
Anything more fighter levels would get you, Holy Power can provide; and then there's Righteous Magic, and Draw Upon Holy Might, and Shield of Faith, and so on, and so forth.
So, you say he is a good character with a good combination of abilities. But still, not a great fighter nor a great cleric. A great character. We agree.
No, I think this means he's a very good fighter AND a very good cleric
That makes no sense. If you have to use magic to fight well, then that's not a good fighter. If you choose a cleric because of his fighter skills, then you don't look for a cleric, you look for a fighter, therefore, his clerical skills secondary.
@Manzor Yet if you use his spells he can be a great fighter, plus can achieve grand mastery at higher levels, which even minsc and keldorn could not. Also, he is not worse of a cleric than Aerie since she only levels up at 1/2 rate, so he is at LEAST the second best cleric in the game.
Because he is a 7 level fighter who cannot get more levels in that class. In advance game, in tob, he is weak too weak to use in attack vs a lot of enemies. My experience.
Anything more fighter levels would get you, Holy Power can provide; and then there's Righteous Magic, and Draw Upon Holy Might, and Shield of Faith, and so on, and so forth.
So, you say he is a good character with a good combination of abilities. But still, not a great fighter nor a great cleric. A great character. We agree.
No, I think this means he's a very good fighter AND a very good cleric
That makes no sense. If you have to use magic to fight well, then that's not a good fighter. If you choose a cleric because of his fighter skills, then you don't look for a cleric, you look for a fighter, therefore, his clerical skills secondary.
With the exception of his low Dex, which is a trait he shares with Keldorn, Anomen can still gain Grandmastery, has natural 18/52 Str, and reasonable Con (16). He also has 7 levels of Fighter HP. As such he is a still a pretty great Fighter, even without Cleric buffs. That said your distinction between 'needing to use magic' making him not a great fighter is a bit… well… stupid. That would be kind of like saying using Berserk on a Berserker shouldn't be taken into account when asking if they're any good.
Because he is a 7 level fighter who cannot get more levels in that class. In advance game, in tob, he is weak too weak to use in attack vs a lot of enemies. My experience.
Anything more fighter levels would get you, Holy Power can provide; and then there's Righteous Magic, and Draw Upon Holy Might, and Shield of Faith, and so on, and so forth.
So, you say he is a good character with a good combination of abilities. But still, not a great fighter nor a great cleric. A great character. We agree.
No, I think this means he's a very good fighter AND a very good cleric
That makes no sense. If you have to use magic to fight well, then that's not a good fighter. If you choose a cleric because of his fighter skills, then you don't look for a cleric, you look for a fighter, therefore, his clerical skills secondary.
With the exception of his low Dex, which is a trait he shares with Keldorn, Anomen can still gain Grandmastery, has natural 18/52 Str, and reasonable Con (16). He also has 7 levels of Fighter HP. As such he is a still a pretty great Fighter, even without Cleric buffs. That said your distinction between 'needing to use magic' making him not a great fighter is a bit… well… stupid. That would be kind of like saying using Berserk on a Berserker shouldn't be taken into account when asking if they're any good.
Someone said that earlier, not me. I said a 7 level fighter was poor, and then someone said that he could use his clerical spells to gain power in fight.
Anomen is one of my favorite characters in battle, I have won tob many times with him in the team. But I only say that he isn't a great fighter, that's all. He can defend himself and little more. He doesn't win true battles. Same thing with Viconia. I use them both almost the same way. But Viconia has more spells earlier. The clerical spells are winning cards. So I prefer Viconia.
Again, we return to the begining. Viconia is better cleric, that's all. Anomen is better fighter, but against powerful bosses that is barely noticeable. And there are a lot of bosses.
And if we are talking about "the best cleric", I think we are thinking in clerical skills and usefulness as a cleric, not as a fighter. The error is mine, for being reductionist. Sorry.
Because he is a 7 level fighter who cannot get more levels in that class. In advance game, in tob, he is weak too weak to use in attack vs a lot of enemies. My experience.
Anything more fighter levels would get you, Holy Power can provide; and then there's Righteous Magic, and Draw Upon Holy Might, and Shield of Faith, and so on, and so forth.
So, you say he is a good character with a good combination of abilities. But still, not a great fighter nor a great cleric. A great character. We agree.
No, I think this means he's a very good fighter AND a very good cleric
That makes no sense. If you have to use magic to fight well, then that's not a good fighter. If you choose a cleric because of his fighter skills, then you don't look for a cleric, you look for a fighter, therefore, his clerical skills secondary.
With the exception of his low Dex, which is a trait he shares with Keldorn, Anomen can still gain Grandmastery, has natural 18/52 Str, and reasonable Con (16). He also has 7 levels of Fighter HP. As such he is a still a pretty great Fighter, even without Cleric buffs. That said your distinction between 'needing to use magic' making him not a great fighter is a bit… well… stupid. That would be kind of like saying using Berserk on a Berserker shouldn't be taken into account when asking if they're any good.
Someone said that earlier, not me. I said a 7 level fighter was poor, and then someone said that he could use his clerical spells to gain power in fight.
Anomen is one of my favorite characters in battle, I have won tob many times with him in the team. But I only say that he isn't a great fighter, that's all. He can defend himself and little more. He doesn't win true battles. Same thing with Viconia. I use them both almost the same way. But Viconia has more spells earlier. The clerical spells are winning cards. So I prefer Viconia.
Again, we return to the begining. Viconia is better cleric, that's all. Anomen is better fighter, but against powerful bosses that is barely noticeable. And there are a lot of bosses.
And if we are talking about "the best cleric", I think we are thinking in clerical skills and usefulness as a cleric, not as a fighter. The error is mine, for being reductionist. Sorry.
From what I understand (and I could be wrong... I'm mediocre at this game and suck with clerics) Viconia only gets two extra level two slots over Anomen due to her intelligence. I somehow doubt that the two extra cure moderate wounds or hold persons are really that much of a dealbreaker against powerful bosses, whereas grand mastery, dual wield!!!! and better strength/constitution/thac0/weapon types are not forgettable benefits (though magic resistance is really nice as well).
Viconia when everything is taken to account is better, both need items to make a good fighter which neither or, her strength even weakened in BG2 is magic resistance, mr takes both int and wisdom into account add that to her natural resistance you can get it too 100% with items. Enema is both boorish and only redeeming quality is that he's good canon fodder
From what I understand (and I could be wrong... I'm mediocre at this game and suck with clerics) Viconia only gets two extra level one slots, two extra level two slots, and an extra level three and four slot over Anomen due to her wisdom (which changes to being just an extra level 3 and 4 spell if anomen passes his trial). I somehow doubt that those bonus spells are really that much of a dealbreaker against powerful bosses, whereas grand mastery, dual wield!!!! and better strength/constitution/thac0/weapon types are not forgettable benefits (though magic resistance is really nice as well).
Viconia when everything is taken to account is better, both need items to make a good fighter which neither or, her strength even weakened in BG2 is magic resistance, mr takes both int and wisdom into account add that to her natural resistance you can get it too 100% with items. Enema is both boorish and only redeeming quality is that he's good canon fodder
"her strength even weakened in BG2 is magic resistance"
Not sure what you mean here given that her magic resistance is higher in BG2.
"mr takes both int and wisdom into account"
No it doesn't. Maybe you are thinking lore?
"...and only redeeming quality is that he's good canon fodder"
Compared to Viconia Anomen has more health, better APR, has access to Holy Smite, and can get grandmastery in a weapon. This comes at the expense of not having her level of magic resistance, not having her high dexterity, not getting her sleep/charm protection and not getting some additional spells from levels 1-4 (which will vary depending upon the outcome of his trial). Either way he is anything but cannon fodder.
Overall I found Anomen to be better mainly as he's good (or neutral) aligned. Holy smite and destroying undead are fairly indispensable abilites. With bracers and some magic resist gear I had him tank a fair bit when I last used him (alone, in a party with just my character and Jan).
I love Viconia as a character, but I feel she suffers from being evil aligned (unless late in the game you romance her to neutrality, which I'm yet to do. I use her a lot in BG 1 however, where her high dex and magic resistence are irreplacable.
Can't comment much on Aerie as I'll admit to never using her for a full playthrough (yet).
Well, I'm not used to buffing her up , but her healing/restoring/undead summoning and controlling/summoning spells at higher levels/ personality + romance makes her truly worthwhile.
However she has no offensive capacity other than a sling. Anomen makes a great front liner with his high Strength and Con, and the gauntlets of dex can bring his DEX up to to make up for it only being at 10. Aerie is frail like Vic but can cast mage spells as well giving her double duty.
So maybe it’s something I’m missing, because I just don’t see what makes Viconia so good. I really don’t feel the two extra spell slots she gets makes up for the low strength and con that Anomen has over her, or the mage spells that Aerie have.
I think the problem here is that you're basically asking two separate questions: your thread title asks, "Why does everyone say Viconia is the best cleric?," but then your posts compares the overall quality of NPCs who also happen to be clerics - it does not actually compare their individual abilities as clerics.
Viconia is (perhaps rightfully) considered the best cleric because she is a single class, unlike Aerie or Jaheira, which means that she levels up more quickly and thus gains higher level cleric spells more quickly, plus she has the highest wisdom which gives her the most bonus spells along the way.
I do agree that Anomen, Aerie, and Jaheira are better overall characters, but not for their cleric abilities - they're better for other reasons.
Go through BGI with her and give her the wisdom manuals then she's a great cleric even if they toned her MR to 50%, as with all clerics their job is to buff and heal, not fight. If you want a cleric who fights then make your character a cleric or better yet a F/C, summon skeletons is one of the best cleric spells at 14+
Because she is drow, she has high dexterity, high wisdom, high magic resistance, is a badmouth for good people and honest/talkative/straightforward for us neutrals (always speaks her mind which is a good thing), she can turn paladins/control undead with cleric turn undead, and she is smexy, kinky, beauty and easy to get along with. You need anything else...?
Well evil is the way to go for me. They have best NPC in SoA, and it is very easy to walk the fine rope with the neutral ones. I'm usually never fully evil and more or less just neutral, but I do what I want and whatever gets me the best items/most experience. More often than not my "evil" party has a reputation above 15 and does more good deeds than bad. That works best if you're romancing Viconia. Also to be taken into account is how real her's is compared to the others. I mean Aerie is like 12 and Jaheira's is just LONG.
I usually just avoid the whole "who is best" with Shadowkeeper. If I wanted a dual classed Cleric/Fighter or a multiclass Cleric/Mage I could have just made one. This is usually the route I take if I'm romancing Viconia because it's no fun to go through the game with just created NPCs. Or having to redo your party because you want to romance a particular NPC. It's actually only Viconia I do this for because I usually play a pure Mage and that is what really lowers my options.
I've gone through the game without any mods, cheats, or use of Shadowkeeper a few times and it really doesn't matter who you put in your party. I've made it through with myself, Blade, Jan, Keldorn, Minsc, and Aerie, and Anomen. Wasn't a great party at all, but it was doable.
I don't like the whole idea of min/maxing BG. Pick who you want and enjoy it.
I've seen Anomen explode a lich before with turn undead... just saying...
I've always thought the way Turn Undead works was stupid. I mean, making it related to levelis not smart at all since a lich -a mage- will have a much slower level curve than a cleric. The way TU works makes it so that a 8m exp cleric (level 40) could turn a 8m exp lich. Like, Szass Tam, were he killable: "You cannot defeat me, Bhaalspawn. You have had only a few decades to develop your power, I have the power of centuries at my fingertips" Anomen: Turn Undead Szass Tam: death
Comments
I don't cast much with her either, and she tends to just sit in the middle of the party turning undead (if there are undead to be turned). That could be a downside if you like managing your characters but I already have my hands full directing my mages and fighters so I appreciate having one I don't need to babysit. Don't confuse her lack of action in combat with ineffectiveness - she wins fights on her own by bringing an army of hasted skeleton warriors. These guys are the real tanks here, because besides being tough and hitting hard they boast a host of immunities. Think of it this way - skeleton warriors have something like 80 hp. 80 hp of damage absorbed, for a level 3 spell! Compare that to the heals you get. If you play this way, between a couple of fighters and a couple of skeletons there isn't much room for her to jump into the fray anyways.
I know it's a bummer having to wait until level 15 but the little skellys aren't too shabby either. They're immune to cloudkill, for one... At these lower levels it's understandable to throw her into melee though, BG1 style. I'm guessing many people who praise her as a front liner used her this way in the previous game and carried on doing so here.
Another note about casting - in trickier fights she usually has her hands full replacing buffs that get dispelled, summoning more skeletons or casting Heal. She might not cast every round but if you lose your Resist Fear or Chaotic Commands, being able to replace it immediately is very helpful.
http://carriebest.deviantart.com/art/Drow-Portrait-325960771
I've made that into a BG version last year and you can get it here:
http://www.invarietateconcordia.de/bgee/BGEE.html
Thats another way that Anomen is a better fighter than Viconia: I always have him dual wield with some awesome blunt weapons.
Best you use them to buff your party beforehand, like protection from evil or defensive harmony. These buffs also cover some of the buffs needed for the clerics themselfes. Then there are some spells with a short term effect, like righteous magic or draw upon holy might. Those should be cast at the very beginning of a difficult combat, if you do not cast summons or disabling spells like hold and stuff.
While your fighters march of to stand in the way of whatever is scariest, your clerics can clobber some other, weaker targets.
If a bowman is hurting your fighter while he concentrates on a big monster, have your cleric attack the archer in CC. A tactic Viconia excels in, due to her high magic resistance, is to disrupt enemy spellcasters. The cleric does not need to kill them, just disrupt some spells or draw the spells upon himself, while your fighters finish their enemies.
At least that's how I use my clerics, though I mainly use Viconia.
One other trick is to have them heal one of your party members. You only need to keep that person standing still until the cast animation has started. Then you can move him and he will be healed from afar.
Yet if you use his spells he can be a great fighter, plus can achieve grand mastery at higher levels, which even minsc and keldorn could not.
Also, he is not worse of a cleric than Aerie since she only levels up at 1/2 rate, so he is at LEAST the second best cleric in the game.
Anomen is one of my favorite characters in battle, I have won tob many times with him in the team. But I only say that he isn't a great fighter, that's all. He can defend himself and little more. He doesn't win true battles. Same thing with Viconia. I use them both almost the same way. But Viconia has more spells earlier. The clerical spells are winning cards. So I prefer Viconia.
Again, we return to the begining. Viconia is better cleric, that's all. Anomen is better fighter, but against powerful bosses that is barely noticeable. And there are a lot of bosses.
And if we are talking about "the best cleric", I think we are thinking in clerical skills and usefulness as a cleric, not as a fighter. The error is mine, for being reductionist. Sorry.
Not sure what you mean here given that her magic resistance is higher in BG2.
"mr takes both int and wisdom into account"
No it doesn't. Maybe you are thinking lore?
"...and only redeeming quality is that he's good canon fodder"
Compared to Viconia Anomen has more health, better APR, has access to Holy Smite, and can get grandmastery in a weapon. This comes at the expense of not having her level of magic resistance, not having her high dexterity, not getting her sleep/charm protection and not getting some additional spells from levels 1-4 (which will vary depending upon the outcome of his trial). Either way he is anything but cannon fodder.
I love Viconia as a character, but I feel she suffers from being evil aligned (unless late in the game you romance her to neutrality, which I'm yet to do. I use her a lot in BG 1 however, where her high dex and magic resistence are irreplacable.
Can't comment much on Aerie as I'll admit to never using her for a full playthrough (yet).
Viconia is (perhaps rightfully) considered the best cleric because she is a single class, unlike Aerie or Jaheira, which means that she levels up more quickly and thus gains higher level cleric spells more quickly, plus she has the highest wisdom which gives her the most bonus spells along the way.
I do agree that Anomen, Aerie, and Jaheira are better overall characters, but not for their cleric abilities - they're better for other reasons.
I usually just avoid the whole "who is best" with Shadowkeeper. If I wanted a dual classed Cleric/Fighter or a multiclass Cleric/Mage I could have just made one. This is usually the route I take if I'm romancing Viconia because it's no fun to go through the game with just created NPCs. Or having to redo your party because you want to romance a particular NPC. It's actually only Viconia I do this for because I usually play a pure Mage and that is what really lowers my options.
I've gone through the game without any mods, cheats, or use of Shadowkeeper a few times and it really doesn't matter who you put in your party. I've made it through with myself, Blade, Jan, Keldorn, Minsc, and Aerie, and Anomen. Wasn't a great party at all, but it was doable.
I don't like the whole idea of min/maxing BG. Pick who you want and enjoy it.
Like, Szass Tam, were he killable: "You cannot defeat me, Bhaalspawn. You have had only a few decades to develop your power, I have the power of centuries at my fingertips"
Anomen: Turn Undead
Szass Tam: death