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Why does everyone say Viconia is the best cleric?

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  • MrBungleMrBungle Member Posts: 50
    This is not a who Is better question. They each play very different roles. If you have an evil party korgon is your tank and viconia makes a great cleric, especially because she can buff heal and support korgan and Dorn, the best dps fighter in the game. If you have a good party Anoman makes the best tank. The other fighters are best at DPS. And if you have area and jahera as well you are not in any way lacking for divine casters. Best to analyze the front three- Korgan, Dorn, Viconia or Anoman, Mazzy, Jaheira. Anoman plays in the 1 slot Viconia sits in the 3 spot.

    semiticgod
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 951
    MrBungle said:

    This is not a who Is better question. They each play very different roles. If you have an evil party korgon is your tank and viconia makes a great cleric, especially because she can buff heal and support korgan and Dorn, the best dps fighter in the game. If you have a good party Anoman makes the best tank. The other fighters are best at DPS. And if you have area and jahera as well you are not in any way lacking for divine casters. Best to analyze the front three- Korgan, Dorn, Viconia or Anoman, Mazzy, Jaheira. Anoman plays in the 1 slot Viconia sits in the 3 spot.

    But Anomen can take the place of Viconia in your evil party. CN Anomen does not even feel out of place.

    Vice versa Viconia also fits into a good party if you avoid Keldorn. And it rather fitting for her alignment switch.

    Also Korgan is not that good a tank, you need spells for that. In your good party Jaheira is also a better tank than Anomen. So would HD be. Also Aerie if you are willing to focus her on defense and micromanage her a bit.

    There are so many party combinations and Anomen fits in every one that Viconia does and shines in both the roles you outlined above while Viconia is significantly worse in one of them. Try naming one specific party where you could not replace Viccy with Anomen and do better.

    Note that they still are both strong characters as in any in BG 2 and since I don't powerplay on that level I take them equally often.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581
    @Ammar Korgan gets Hardiness as an HLA and Berserker rage, on top of a huge CON which means very low saving throws and a big HP pool, I can hardly think of a better tank NPC. None of this is dispellable on top of that (Hardiness is breachable if you play with SCS), just add DoE on offhand, eventually the cloak of mirroring and Foebane in mainhand, and I assure you you get a tank that no NPC can match

  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    @MrBungle, @Ammar, @Arunsun - I hear that in some other games (such as WoW, which I've never played), there is such a role as a pure tank, in the sense of a character who steps forward and keeps the enemy busy wasting attacks on them but without themselves being expected to deal much damage to the enemy. However, BG combat doesn't really work that way, and analysing a character's potential as a "static defence" tank isn't very useful.

    In BG, a sensible front-line "tank" means a mixed role, both occupying the enemy and also hurting the enemy seriously, because in BG the efficient way to defend your party in combat is to kill the enemy quickly, before he can do major damage to you. Of course, I'm sure some people have found it possible to play BG using someone as a pure static defence tank, but that's almost never going to be a playing-style which gets the full benefit out of what your characters could do, so it's not really relevant to comparing the potential merits of different NPCs in BG (even though it might be more relevant in some other game systems).

    Korgan is (as @Arunsun says) a splendid example of what tanking means in the BG system - he hits the enemy hard as well as absorbing the enemy attacks very effectively. Yes, you can easily make Anomen almost as resilient, and with a little more effort you can even make Viconia pretty tough too, but neither of them is remotely as good at melee damage as the various warrior NPCs. It's a waste of talent to be using them (even Anomen, who isn't too bad at it) as your main front-liners (except perhaps in special situations, such as when blunt weapons are essential), because you can always hire someone else to do that front-line work and instead have Anomen/Viconia concentrate mainly on their own specialty of divine casting. Of course they can both (but especially Anomen) use physical weapons too, but they're both primarily casters (at which they're about equally good), else you're not using them to maximum effect.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581
    The archetypes in many games are, roughly:
    Physical damage dealer: weak defense, deals tons of physical damage
    Tank: strong defense, has several disablers and buffs, has little to insignificant damage
    Cleric: Average defense, low damage, many buffs, heals and disablers.
    Mages: weak defense, strong AoE damage

    In BG it is more like:
    Melee fighter: strong defense, strong offense
    Cleric: Average damage and defense, many buffs and heals, not so many disablers
    Mage: strong offensive AoE, self defensive buffs, weak defense
    Which is balanced by the fact a fighter has little means on its own to deal with enemy protections

    Of course within these categories you can push for more tanking and less damage or more damage and less tanking but that's the idea overall.

    Gallowglasssemiticgod
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,586
    edited November 2015
    I wouldn't necessarely agree with your generic role descriptions, @arunsun. In my humble opinion, BG is more like rock-paper-scissor than anything else, meaning that classes which are inherently good against one class are weaker against another, though in BG you can pimp up your rock to also beat up the paper by buffs and gear.

    Fighter beats thief
    Thief beats mage
    Mage beats fighter
    etc..

    BUT also:
    Buffed and prepared thief beats fighter and mage
    Buffed and prepared fighter beats thief and mage
    etc..

    This is different from many MMO's where a class has a more static role. A 'tank' is always a tank, if you don't fully spec for just one thing, you die. In BG your mage can be your best tank but also your best damage dealer at the same time. Same for a fighter. A thief can be a decent 'mage' with UAI, but also deal a ton of damage. A cleric can be a tank himself but also has summons to tank for him while he focus on AoE or disablers. This is one of the things I like the most about BG compared to other RPG's, the versatility.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,525
    I would disagree with that order, @Skatan. A buffed fighter or thief can be instantly debuffed by any mage with Remove Magic unless we're at low levels, as potions and magic items count as level 10 spells by default. Most such buffs can also be Breached. Fighters have great gear and can prepare for many obstacles (Chaos is useless against characters with Lilarcor), but the same thing applies to any properly equipped character, including mages or thieves.

    One character class is not inherently good at fighting another. The gameplay is too complex to accurately describe in those terms. If there is a rock-paper-scissors effect going on, I would credit that to individual tactics, not to classes. A given fight is highly dependent on the specific factors involved.

    Let's take an example, fighter vs. mage:

    Arrow of Dispelling from the fighter takes down all the mage's buffs. But what if you don't have the gold for them? But let's say you do. The mage therefore casts PFMW. Then Invisibility. Fighter can't hurt him.

    So the fighter uses Detect Invisibility via Peridan. So the mage re-casts Invisibility. But what if the mage doesn't have more than one casting? So the mage drinks a Potion of Invisibility. So does the fighter. Stalemate.

    So the mage casts Summon Planetar. Wait, what if we're not that high-level? Okay, the mage casts Protection from Evil, then Cacofiend. The Nabassu goes after the invisible fighter, and can paralyze from a distance.

    But the fighter already anticipated this and ran away, out of the Nabassu's field of vision. But the mage would have anticipated this as well, and actually memorized Sphere of Chaos instead, which could disintegrate the fighter. So the fighter runs away until PFMW has worn off.

    But the mage was smart enough to memorize Maze, so it hits the fighter with Maze. It summons a Nabassu to wait for the fighter to come back.

    So the fighter drinks a Potion of Freedom to block Death Gaze. But the mage dispels it with Remove Magic. The mage has the advantage! But the fighter isn't stupid enough to go walking around without a Ring of Free Action instead of a Potion of Freedom, so the fighter is already immune to the Nabassu's paralysis. But the mage wouldn't be stupid enough to expect the fighter to not be wearing that ring. So the mage casts Skull Traps during the Maze instead.

    But the fighter knows better than to fight a mage without the Belt of Inertial Barrier, so Skull Trap can't do enough damage to kill the fighter. The mage knows this, so he uses Delayed Blast Fireball instead!

    Oh, but the fighter has the Red Dragon Scale equipped, for just this occasion. So the mage doesn't bother with Maze in the first place. The mage just summons a Nabassu at the beginning with a Protection from Evil contingency, so when the fighter tries to run away, the Nabassu will give chase, letting the mage know where the fighter is!

    So the fighter drinks an Oil of Speed to escape. But the mage knows he might do that, so the mage casts Improved Haste on the Nabassu so the fighter can't get away.

    The fighter distracts the Nabassu with the Efreeti Bottle. The mage removes it with Death Spell.

    The fighter has the Amulet of Cheetah Speed, though, so it can outrun the Nabassu, and doesn't need the Efreeti Bottle. The mage has the amulet too, though, so it can chase the fighter using True Seeing.

    But the fighter has the Book of Infinite spells, and has True Seeing himself. The mage isn't invisible, either! Now both of them can attack the other.

    So anyway, an Arrow of Dispelling will take down the mage's buffs. But it can't bypass PFMW, so what the fighter has to do...

    GallowglassArdulJuliusBorisovgorgonzola
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,586

    I would disagree with that order, @Skatan. A buffed fighter or thief can be instantly debuffed by any mage with Remove Magic unless we're at low levels, as potions and magic items count as level 10 spells by default. Most such buffs can also be Breached. Fighters have great gear and can prepare for many obstacles (Chaos is useless against characters with Lilarcor), but the same thing applies to any properly equipped character, including mages or thieves.

    One character class is not inherently good at fighting another. The gameplay is too complex to accurately describe in those terms. If there is a rock-paper-scissors effect going on, I would credit that to individual tactics, not to classes. A given fight is highly dependent on the specific factors involved.

    Let's take an example, fighter vs. mage:


    Arrow of Dispelling from the fighter takes down all the mage's buffs. But what if you don't have the gold for them? But let's say you do. The mage therefore casts PFMW. Then Invisibility. Fighter can't hurt him.

    So the fighter uses Detect Invisibility via Peridan. So the mage re-casts Invisibility. But what if the mage doesn't have more than one casting? So the mage drinks a Potion of Invisibility. So does the fighter. Stalemate.

    So the mage casts Summon Planetar. Wait, what if we're not that high-level? Okay, the mage casts Protection from Evil, then Cacofiend. The Nabassu goes after the invisible fighter, and can paralyze from a distance.

    But the fighter already anticipated this and ran away, out of the Nabassu's field of vision. But the mage would have anticipated this as well, and actually memorized Sphere of Chaos instead, which could disintegrate the fighter. So the fighter runs away until PFMW has worn off.

    But the mage was smart enough to memorize Maze, so it hits the fighter with Maze. It summons a Nabassu to wait for the fighter to come back.

    So the fighter drinks a Potion of Freedom to block Death Gaze. But the mage dispels it with Remove Magic. The mage has the advantage! But the fighter isn't stupid enough to go walking around without a Ring of Free Action instead of a Potion of Freedom, so the fighter is already immune to the Nabassu's paralysis. But the mage wouldn't be stupid enough to expect the fighter to not be wearing that ring. So the mage casts Skull Traps during the Maze instead.

    But the fighter knows better than to fight a mage without the Belt of Inertial Barrier, so Skull Trap can't do enough damage to kill the fighter. The mage knows this, so he uses Delayed Blast Fireball instead!

    Oh, but the fighter has the Red Dragon Scale equipped, for just this occasion. So the mage doesn't bother with Maze in the first place. The mage just summons a Nabassu at the beginning with a Protection from Evil contingency, so when the fighter tries to run away, the Nabassu will give chase, letting the mage know where the fighter is!

    So the fighter drinks an Oil of Speed to escape. But the mage knows he might do that, so the mage casts Improved Haste on the Nabassu so the fighter can't get away.

    The fighter distracts the Nabassu with the Efreeti Bottle. The mage removes it with Death Spell.

    The fighter has the Amulet of Cheetah Speed, though, so it can outrun the Nabassu, and doesn't need the Efreeti Bottle. The mage has the amulet too, though, so it can chase the fighter using True Seeing.

    But the fighter has the Book of Infinite spells, and has True Seeing himself. The mage isn't invisible, either! Now both of them can attack the other.

    So anyway, an Arrow of Dispelling will take down the mage's buffs. But it can't bypass PFMW, so what the fighter has to do...

    Hehe, good point. I was being very generic though, so I should probably have stated that those rock-paper-scissor orders I wrote down was not exactly how I see it, they were just examples of how one class can fair better against certain classes generically but that it can quickly be altered with the aid of items, spells and player skills.

    That's why I wrote:
    "though in BG you can pimp up your rock to also beat up the paper by buffs and gear. "
    and
    "In BG your mage can be your best tank but also your best damage dealer at the same time. Same for a fighter. A thief can be a decent 'mage' with UAI, but also deal a ton of damage. A cleric can be a tank himself but also has summons to tank for him while he focus on AoE or disablers. This is one of the things I like the most about BG compared to other RPG's, the versatility. "

    I was mainly compairing against the opinion of @arunsun which implied a slightly more static view of different classes' roles on the battlefield. I may have misunderstood him though, I dunno.

    semiticgod
  • mikklemikkle Member Posts: 38
    I was just deciding between Viconia and Anomen during my another BG2 playthrough and came to the conclusion there is really no point of taking her:

    - why does one need to invest all best gear for one character to make it passable in battle?
    - I like to believe that cleric should be in the front line - because where else healing is most needed?
    - she cannot dual wield
    - Yes, it is possible to make her decent by casting several spells and drinking potions before a fight. From my experience, it gets extremely boring with time
    - She can access upper-level spells faster that is true but honestly, in my previous playthroughs it did not matter at all what cleric does really - mages and fighters did 99% of the job and cleric was useful just for restoration, protection spells and stuff like that

    So all in all If I am to choose between Viconia to be just there with a sling and casting the essential spells or Anomen doing the same plus dealing lots of damage then the choice if obvious.

  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 331
    I agree that Anomen is a better cleric and front liner than Viconia - you don’t have to get loads of special gear to make him viable for this. Without loads of equipment/buffing, Viconia works better with missile weapons.

    The OP (way back in 2013, blimey I had hair then...) stated he didn’t like Cernd..well he should because he can be awesome, but as a spellcasting druid rather than a shapeshifter as such. You just need to know how to play him.

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 589
    I'm thinking this topic has been around so long because the game doesn't offer a truly top-tier cleric. Half-orc fighter/cleric or half-elf ranger/cleric would be considerably more useful overall than any of the options BG2 makes available. Viconia has nice magic resistance and a decent constitution but her APR is far too low to be an effective damage-dealer. Anomen has the APR to handle low to mid level BG2 encounters but falters sharply in the second half of the game because he can't use fighter HLAs. Cernd and the other singleclass druids have a varied selection of situationally useful spells (like the insect spells) but can't easily fill the cleric role because they can't cast staple spells like raise dead nor do they have the THAC0 to be solid melee combatants (unless you install SCS' improved shapeshifting which is a highly broken though admittedly entertaining power-up).

    I'd actually say Jaheira is probably the game's best cleric. She's the only druid in the game who can cast raise dead, wear heavy armor, and gain fighter HLAs. You can make an argument for Viconia if you're looking to max spell resistance, or Anomen if you can't do without undead-turning, but Jaheira still seems like the strongest all-around choice to me.

    DhariusArdul
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 331
    Yes, if I had to pick only one of the priest NPCs available for a party it’d be Jaheira, and in fact she’s in any party I create. In fact the only one I don’t use regularly is Viconia, as I can see greater merits for Cernd, Anomen and Aerie.

    jsavingleeux
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,728
    Viconia can DW, with fighter like thac0, 25 str without str items and a big hp buff, 4 apr Ihasted, if the right spell buffs are used.
    Anomen at high level can have 4 apr, 8 Ihasted, with 25 str and again without str items.
    Aerie can also mlee, more tanky, but later as she gain cleric levels slower. End game is more effective then the others, a simulacrum clone with BBOD scroll in the quick slot do the trick.

    To buff the clerics to go mlee can be boring or annoying for some players, but it does not mean that a cleric can not do it very effectively if properly used. They can also be used in other ways, it depends on player style and situation.
    They are much more then healers and sling users.

    leeuxdunbar
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,063
    I'd like to add that Viconia has greater survival skills against beholders and can pretty much strike down beholder coty on her own without Shield of Cheese.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,728
    i did a test with Viconia lev 19 and good gear (FoA+4, star mace, end game shield and good armor) buffed with the con bonus from the belt and 3 clerical spells (holy power, virtuous magic and DuHM).
    no str gear (mauler arm let her walk around when not buffed)

    stats
    str 25
    dex 25
    con 24

    140 HP
    ac -10 DW (can use DoE and her lev 1 spell to gain good damage reduction if needed for tanking), -15 with a shield.

    dw FoA +4 and the +5 mace:
    thac0 -8 MH, -5 OH, 26 dmg/hit (automatic maxed dmg roll) + elemental damages, FoA +5 can be used while Improved hasted with a little micro management if more is needed.
    with shield the MH thac0 is -11
    with club of detonation and anti fire gear is an other option.

    ranged with erinne sling and bullet +4 thac0 -13, 28 dmg/hit.

    with a haste spell or potion she gets 2 apr ranged or with mlee weapon and shield, DW she need IH for 4 apr.

    so IH and DW FoA+5 it is a potential of 104 + 20elemental+ 2d6electric damage/round
    and 2 hits round have 33% chance (no save) to slow the enemy.
    ranged and hasted she deal 56 dmg/round while in a safe position to cast without being disrupted.
    and as she has a good thac0 when correctly buffed when she uses the harm spell is very likely that the hit connect and the enemy is brought at 1hp with a single hit, thing that the fighter types can only dream about (yep i know, they can use vorpal weapons).

    imho it is not bad at all for a class that is mainly a caster one, and the fact that the precious str belts are not needed to do it let build the crom hammer (that HAS to be equipped by a fighter, not by a cleric that can bring str to 25 at will...) or spread str items to other party members.
    She is not so items hungry as it can seem as the fighters have other weapon alternatives and there is plenty of good armors and shields. probably i would give FoA to a fighter with more apr, as i find that the slowing effect is really strong, but runehammer or some other good blunt weapon can be used instead.

    and yes, she can also heal, and by the way suck spells with her MR, cast implosions, storms of vengeance to disrupt enemy casters, call elementals and skeletal warriors, protect the party from nasty mind effects and restore levels or resurrect party members.

    I would not say that she is the most effective divine caster NPC, my beloved Aerie has way more casting potential as she has access to both the divine and arcane magic that she can mix, Anomen (DW + GM) has way more apr and almost her cleric level and spells at a given xp and Jaheira with belm in OH, iron skins and a good str item is also very good at mlee, and has the insect spells and the elemental prince summon.

    maybe she is not the best cleric, i count in also the mlee and ranged potential as it is a very important part of what a cleric can do in my evaluation, but if well used she is really strong and can cover different roles in different parties and battles. The truth is that all the npc clerics are super strong from mid SoA on, and Jaheira as well, but they need some knowledge if a player want to have them really shine.

    i had her taking control of vampires and with tactics mod even liches.
    too bad that her turn paladin ability is bugged and seem to don't work with black guards, even if the black guard is a paladin kit, i would love to have her in the party if only to endlessly torture dorn :D.

    Aerakar
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 262
    Turning blackguards? You want a good/neutral cleric for that. By the way, fear immunity doesn't protect blackguards from being turned; I've had Aerie turn Dorn while both were in the same party.

    gorgonzola
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 589
    I do not think anyone is saying Viconia can't be a capable melee combatant with the proper buffs, only that other joinable cleric (or druid) NPCs can be more capable melee combatants with the same buffs. She isn't weak though and as @gorgonzola says there is a solid case to be made for her depending on your party.

    ThacoBellDhariusgorgonzola
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 695
    jmerry wrote: »
    Turning blackguards? You want a good/neutral cleric for that. By the way, fear immunity doesn't protect blackguards from being turned; I've had Aerie turn Dorn while both were in the same party.

    Why can clerics turn blackguards anyway? They aren’t undead. If anything, I’d think their power source would be demonic/fell.

    Permidion_Stark
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 671
    My main problem with Viconia as a melee combatant is that she's really, really vulnerable to Dispel Magic or Remove Magic, and she has no way to block that effect without ruining her buffs anyways. The CON buff, anything allowing her to make more than 2 attacks per round, every single cleric buff... Most enemies that are worth anything have a higher caster level. And she's almost straight-up outmatched by Anomen, with Anomen losing only a smidgen of experience (in BG2 terms, anyways), magic resistance (alright, this is pretty cool) and having much lower DEX. But that's fixable by an undispellable equipment buff... And then add on the Fighter HP, fighter APR, fighter mastery...

    Granted, the Gauntlets of DEX are also wanted by Keldorn and Korgan, but the difference of 4 AC by the lategame is pretty negligible unless you're trying to stack AC to the heavens. Viccy's niche seems to be the ability to get to 100% MR, as well as being the only Evil Cleric in the game.

    gorgonzolaElysianEchoesilduderinosemiticgod
  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 246
    This thread reminds me how I wish this game had a dwarf fighter/cleric companion

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 262
    Viconia's self-buffs aren't as vulnerable to being dispelled as you might think. Full clerics like her and Anomen have very high caster levels, matched only by bards in the long run. Late-game, you'll exceed the enemies' level so you can reliably dispel them and they can't dispel you.
    Any buffs from items or spells cast by other characters? Those are vulnerable.

    A dwarf fighter/cleric? There's a mod for that: Yeslick BG2.

    gorgonzolailduderinosemiticgod
  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 246
    edited September 6
    Thanks, I use the Yeslick mod regularly! It’s great, sadly there isn’t much cross mod content though

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,728

    Why can clerics turn blackguards anyway? They aren’t undead. If anything, I’d think their power source would be demonic/fell.
    yep, they are not undeads, but clerics can also turn paladins and the blackguard is a paladin kit.
    jmerry wrote: »
    Turning blackguards? You want a good/neutral cleric for that. By the way, fear immunity doesn't protect blackguards from being turned; I've had Aerie turn Dorn while both were in the same party.
    true, in the original game there was no evil paladins and only the evil clerics could turn the (LG) paladins, in EE the evil paladin kit has been introduced and the neutral and good paladins can turn blackguards.


    OrlonKronsteen
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 4,891
    gorgonzola wrote: »

    Why can clerics turn blackguards anyway? They aren’t undead. If anything, I’d think their power source would be demonic/fell.
    yep, they are not undeads, but clerics can also turn paladins and the blackguard is a paladin kit.
    jmerry wrote: »
    Turning blackguards? You want a good/neutral cleric for that. By the way, fear immunity doesn't protect blackguards from being turned; I've had Aerie turn Dorn while both were in the same party.
    true, in the original game there was no evil paladins and only the evil clerics could turn the (LG) paladins, in EE the evil paladin kit has been introduced and the neutral and good paladins can turn blackguards.


    Just out of curiosity, can an evil cleric disrupt (destroy) low-level paladins?

  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 472
    I... don't actually remember. I want to say yes, if the evil cleric is high enough level, but I honestly don't remember what the rulebooks said about that.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,728
    edited September 7
    @Balrog99 i don't look at the game files with modding tools, so i am only guessing from my own game experience. so i can be completely wrong.

    with the original game i had viconia and keldorn in the same party, using a mod that avoid conflicts between NPCs, and every time viconia activated her ability i did loose the control on him and he was lying on the ground moaning.
    if turning pally did work like turning undeads the expected behavior should have been to take control of the paladin, if the level of the cleric is high enough, but that was not the case.
    it is not possible to test what a good cleric do as there are no evil paladins.

    in EE i did run some tests in the TOB pocket plane and it seems that the turning paladin behavior has been changed.
    i tasted both anomen and viconia eekeepered to high level turning dorn and keldorn. in both the cases i loose control over the paladin (or blackguard kit) turned by the cleric of opposite alignment.
    the paladin level, compared to the one of the cleric, seem to not being important. viconia turns keldorn in the same way both giving her very high level and him very low (EEkeeper) 40 vs 4, and at the starting tob xp of 2.5M, so viky lev 19 and him lev 16.
    but in EE the turned paladin's circle becomes yellow and he start to wander around without reacting for a quite long time, i would say like 3-5 rounds. and it happens both if an evil cleric turns a good paladin and if the alignments are inverted.

    i would say that a paladin is never destroyed when turned, after all he is not an undead (but a certain vampire npc is an undead and should explode when a good cleric activate the ability asnd it does not happens... ;) :s
    but to be fair is also not possible to turn bodhi so a precedent exists :) )

    i was not aware of the EE behavior when i first posted in the thread, as i was using only my not EE experience as reference, so i wrongly assumed that an evil cleric should have been able to turn all the paladins, included the evil kit.

    i hope it helps and if some one with more knowledge then mine will tell more about it i also want to know more about turning paladins. to have viky and kel in the same party is still not possible in the not modded EE, but every combination of charname good pally and viconia or dorn/charname blackguard and the 2 other clerics is really problematic as to loose the control of a toon as soon as the party cleric activates turn undeads is quite risky...

    Balrog99StummvonBordwehr
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 4,891
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    @Balrog99 i don't look at the game files with modding tools, so i am only guessing from my own game experience. so i can be completely wrong.

    with the original game i had viconia and keldorn in the same party, using a mod that avoid conflicts between NPCs, and every time viconia activated her ability i did loose the control on him and he was lying on the ground moaning.
    if turning pally did work like turning undeads the expected behavior should have been to take control of the paladin, if the level of the cleric is high enough, but that was not the case.
    it is not possible to test what a good cleric do as there are no evil paladins.

    in EE i did run some tests in the TOB pocket plane and it seems that the turning paladin behavior has been changed.
    i tasted both anomen and viconia eekeepered to high level turning dorn and keldorn. in both the cases i loose control over the paladin (or blackguard kit) turned by the cleric of opposite alignment.
    the paladin level, compared to the one of the cleric, seem to not being important. viconia turns keldorn in the same way both giving her very high level and him very low (EEkeeper) 40 vs 4, and at the starting tob xp of 2.5M, so viky lev 19 and him lev 16.
    but in EE the turned paladin's circle becomes yellow and he start to wander around without reacting for a quite long time, i would say like 3-5 rounds. and it happens both if an evil cleric turns a good paladin and if the alignments are inverted.

    i would say that a paladin is never destroyed when turned, after all he is not an undead (but a certain vampire npc is an undead and should explode when a good cleric activate the ability asnd it does not happens... ;) :s
    but to be fair is also not possible to turn bodhi so a precedent exists :) )

    i was not aware of the EE behavior when i first posted in the thread, as i was using only my not EE experience as reference, so i wrongly assumed that an evil cleric should have been able to turn all the paladins, included the evil kit.

    i hope it helps and if some one with more knowledge then mine will tell more about it i also want to know more about turning paladins. to have viky and kel in the same party is still not possible in the not modded EE, but every combination of charname good pally and viconia or dorn/charname blackguard and the 2 other clerics is really problematic as to loose the control of a toon as soon as the party cleric activates turn undeads is quite risky...
    Very insightful...

    What happens with neutral clerics (ie: Anomen)? I think they're supposed to be able to choose between turning and controlling undead but I confess I've never tried turning with Anomen.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,728
    edited September 7
    i tested it right now making anomen neutral, in my previous test he was good, and he fails to turn both keldorn and dorn.
    i suppose that the neutral clerics can not turn paladins.
    with undeads they make them explode like the good aligned ones.

    at least this is the result of the tests i can do altering savegames in the pocket plane with EEkeeper.
    i don't have the chance to test with not party summoned undeads easily as i don't have save games that are useful to do it now.

    Balrog99ilduderino
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 4,891
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    i tested it right now making anomen neutral, in my previous test he was good, and he fails to turn both keldorn and dorn.
    i suppose that the neutral clerics can not turn paladins.
    with undeads they make them explode like the good aligned ones.

    at least this is the result of the tests i can do altering savegames in the pocket plane with EEkeeper.
    i don't have the chance to test with not party summoned undeads easily as i don't have save games that are useful to do it now.

    You're supposed to be able to choose when you're neutral but apparently that must not have been implemented. I suspected that might be the case but never tested it. Thanks for the info! B)

    gorgonzola
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 589
    As of 1998 all good and neutral clerics turned undead. It wasn't until 3rd edition D&D that neutral clerics were given the option to choose.

    gorgonzolaBalrog99Aerakar
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