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How was your first experience with Baldur's Gate?

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Comments

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 4,210
    carfax19 said:

    Grond0 said:

    The "Abilities" tab of the character record screen shows you the effect of character stats. It doesn't say there which stat is responsible for each effect...

    They are not there in the character creation. If your user interface is inadequate and requires you to look up in the manual such critical information as one needed for the character creation, it is bad.

    There is a logic to the way it's done, even if you would prefer an alternative. For those people that like to know all the details the information is there in the manual. For those that know nothing about AD&D, but want to just dive into the game and play, the information in the character creation screen provides the broad information necessary to get started. For such people, knowing that 18 strength provides +1 THAC0 and +2 damage is not in fact much help - it only becomes useful once you've got a better idea of how the game functions.

    TressetJuliusBorisovThacoBell
  • carfax19carfax19 Member Posts: 15
    @Grond0 It is not much help in knowing that CON 18 = CON 16, STR 15 = STR 8 (!), DEX 7 = DEX 14 (!!) for a new player? I disagree.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 16,755
    edited January 10
    @carfax19 What you have just written is wrong. Just check out the tables, and you'll see the differencies. Imagine something in the game drains DEX from you. Not even talking about CON differencies for fighters, and again stat drains. Same for STR. Or stat checks. Should all this stuff be spoiled to the new player?

    Also, while you attack the BG rules, keep in mind that BG is based on DnD.

    ThacoBell
  • carfax19carfax19 Member Posts: 15
    @JuliusBorisov I look at the table on page 134, and see that both CON 16 and 18 both give +2 HP Adj, both STR 15 and 8 give 0 Hit Adj and Dam. Adj, and both DEX 7 and 14 give 0 Miss. Att. Adj and AC Adj. In normal DnD rules, those are +2 and +3, +2 and -1, and -2 and +2 correspondingly. How am I supposed to know the BG rules if the chargen UI doesn't tell me anything?

    And BG doesn't have stat drains or stat checks, those were added in BG2 and IWD correspondingly.

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,059
    edited January 10
    carfax19 said:

    And BG doesn't have stat drains or stat checks, those were added in BG2 and IWD correspondingly.

    @carfax19 Double wrong! There are indeed stat drains and stat checks in BG. Wraith Spiders, for instance, can drain strength on hit. Kirinhale casts a spell that drains dexterity and constitution. As for stat checks; they are too plentiful to list. One example is Teven, a bandit in the Wood of Sharp Teeth. You can only convince him to let you join the bandits as a recruit if your strength is above 14.

    JuliusBorisovThacoBell
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 16,755
    edited January 10
    You learn a game the more you play it. Any game. When you start playing any game, you don't know all ins and outs. Baldur's Gate is not different in this regard. @carfax19 What is your issue exactly?

    Here is what you see in the EE manual (which you can find in the Manuals folder from the main folder with BG:EE or BGII:EE):


    ThacoBell
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 4,210
    carfax19 said:

    @JuliusBorisov I look at the table on page 134, and see that both CON 16 and 18 both give +2 HP Adj, both STR 15 and 8 give 0 Hit Adj and Dam. Adj, and both DEX 7 and 14 give 0 Miss. Att. Adj and AC Adj. In normal DnD rules, those are +2 and +3, +2 and -1, and -2 and +2 correspondingly. How am I supposed to know the BG rules if the chargen UI doesn't tell me anything?

    @carfax19 as I said, the details are in the manual for those that want them and nearly all those details are available through the UI in the game itself.

    The details for BG are in fact taken from 2nd edition AD&D rules. Other than a bit of rounding and some details not being implemented (like magical defense bonus for wisdom and number of henchmen for charisma), the effect of stats are identical - if you're used to different figures that may be because you've played more recent D&D editions.

    The impact of stats in the game is actually far more complex than you're suggesting. In addition to stat checks and drains there are also permanent gains and losses in stats to take account of, dual-classing requirements, requirements for using magic items, impact of cursed items, ability to regenerate, chance of fatigue, carrying limits, impact of spells, saving throw adjustments and lots of other things. Most of that though would be not just meaningless, but extremely off-putting to the average starting player.

    There is a difficult balancing act about the amount of information provided by the game. I accept that there is some information I would like to know that I can't easily find in the UI, but I've played plenty of games where too much information is provided - making the UI time-consuming or cumbersome to use. If you have specific changes you would like to see, then why not explain those and your rationale for why they are a good idea in a separate thread?

    TressetThacoBell
  • carfax19carfax19 Member Posts: 15
    Bethesda's Arena, 1994 (!):

    Everything important is in its place, and updated nicely.

    Interplay's Baldur's Gate, 1998

    Not only doesn't it tell anything important, but it further confuses and misleads the player: there is no "reflexes" or "balance" anywhere in BG!

    The BG UI is plain and simple stupid.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 16,755
    edited January 10
    Is it fair to complete a table with only 2 Adj to a table with several columns?
    carfax19 said:


    The BG UI is plain and simple stupid.

    There're lots of UI changes in the EE, not even talking about mods.

    Coming back to the thread topic, if "stupid UI" of BG was your first experience with Baldur's Gate years ago, we all hear you. However, a lot of sources exist nowadays to help new players to better understand BG:

    - the manual (especially the upgraded manual coming with the EE)
    - the in-game UI changes in the EE and mods
    - a community of players, and asking online is now much more easier than in 1998-1999.

    TressetGrond0ThacoBell
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