Game developers are optimistic people. Well, if Beamdog weren't optimistic we would never see any revival of BG. So, Beamdog seems to be even more optimistic than some other game developers.
Replace "optimistic" with "incompetent" and you might have a point.
So, this is a general problem and should be understandable.
When patch 1.2 was stalled, it was understandable because they were working on BG2:EE. When BG2:EE patches were stalled, it was understandable because they were working on BG:EE Android. When patch 1.3 was stalled, it was understandable because they were working on "Adventure Y".
At some point, making the same mistakes over and over again stops being understandable and starts being a sign of something else altogether.
@shawne I know it frustrating to always wait for there release but keep in mind that they are small team and don't have a lot of people working on this patch, it not like they are sitting and wasting time doing other stuff they are working as hard as they can to bring it to the light.
This unannouced feature @Dee spoke of, it gives me some hope regarding one thing. Pherhaps it is correlated to the fact that @AndreaColombo is not responding to my question, since it wasn't supposed to be announced .
I really hope it will be IT. I don't want to restrict myself from playing Baldur's Gate any longer.
I don't think we need to invoke conspiracy theories or incompetence to explain why the patch ship date continues to push out - I suspect it is simple enthusiasm. There is a very small team of folks working on BG now, but they are committed, working extremely hard, and true believers that they can make all things better. It galls them to leave a bug that they know about unfixed, to hold back a simple tweak that will make everyone's life better. And so the cycle goes on - if we are not shipping yet while waiting for Dev X's code to stabilize and check in, I can push in two or three trivial fixes, and while they are bedding down, Dev X work does check in, and now he sees an opportunity to fix his own pet bug while mine are taking longer than expected to resolve…
The classic example here (for me) is Dee announcing yet another new feature will be in the patch, which will make the delay seem worth it. Well, if the feature was not part of the original plan, then all this does is add even more delay to the patch, introduce more risk, and potentially allow the creep of additional bug fixes to grow and delay the patch yet again. It does not fill me with enthusiasm, it fills me with dread for an even longer delay to the final release date, yet sounds exactly what I would want to do if I were a developer and not a release manager!!
For my sins, I do indeed write software for a living, and have briefly been on the management side of the office. It was not a good fit for me, but I did gain a much deeper appreciation of what it takes to be a good manager, and to actually release quality software in a timely manner. Among other things, it means making hard decisions and saying 'no' far more often than you would like. As someone who has no insight into the actual development process of BeamDog, merely a customer, I glimpse an organization that seems to need someone better able to say 'No! That goes in the next patch' and focus on shipping the current work in progress. Sadly, people who are *good* at this are surprisingly rare, and with their weight (or more) in gold when you find them. I still hope Dee can grow into such a figure! We are already training him to have the necessarily thick skin on these fora ;~)
I am gradually becoming a rhinoceros, for all the thickening I've experienced on these fora.
I will say that the feature I mentioned isn't the reason that the patch hasn't shipped yet. If it were, you can be sure it wouldn't be on the table at all.
Don't hype yourself too much. The developpement team for these patches is very small and rely on the community pretty much for everything. I doubt we will see a patch anytime soon as they are probably trying to get a "final" version of the engine ready for BG3.
The current state of BG2:EE practically requires a Fixpack. Like this one. On what planet has Beamdog proven itself even remotely capable of doing BG3?
Thanks for the promotion
Also I just posted this for BGEE. The biggest thing it does is restore the constitution bonus that used to be granted when you shapechange. It also addresses a bug that was making shapeshift weapons disappear after a given time and it tries to connect the correct strings with descriptions for these abilities (some of them like shapeshift: werewolf and shapeshift: flind don't appear because I couldn't find their descriptions written up anywhere internally). I took some other liberties as well so people are free to check it out.
@shawne I know it frustrating to always wait for there release but keep in mind that they are small team and don't have a lot of people working on this patch, it not like they are sitting and wasting time doing other stuff they are working as hard as they can to bring it to the light.
We are now officially at 6 months since the release of BG2EE (and about a week away from 6 months since any non-beta patches for it) and 6 months since the release of 1.2 for BGEE. The being a small team argument I think has been used way too much. If this was such a problem then they should have either contracted out necessary fixes to other companies or renegotiated their contract. I have no doubt they are working hard but from my standpoint as a consumer it looks like they've been trying to support way too many platforms (apple, pc, ipad, android) given both the size of the games and the size of their team.
We are now officially at 6 months since the release of BG2EE (and about a week away from 6 months since any non-beta patches for it) and 6 months since the release of 1.2 for BGEE. The being a small team argument I think has been used way too much. If this was such a problem then they should have either contracted out necessary fixes to other companies or renegotiated their contract. I have no doubt they are working hard but from my standpoint as a consumer it looks like they've been trying to support way too many platforms (apple, pc, ipad, android) given both the size of the games and the size of their team.
True, that is a problem indeed but what would you have them do ? we are not at an era of only pc or even pc and apple anymore, people using different platforms now days. I'm sure it isn't easy for anyone to wait and I'm sure that it not easy for them as well to be under this pressure of demands and that they are doing the best they can. Also why once when a game was released we could have play the game the way it come out and be ok with that and today we aren't satisfied with what we got and always want more and NOT playing a playable game just because there gonna be an update in the future????
Big part of the problem seems to be the philosophy Beamdog has regards to patching. They try to build these massive mega patches instead of releasing more bite sized patches, and it's clearly not working for them.
The thing is many people aren't really even waiting for BGEE patch, rather they are waiting to for Beamdog to finish that so that they can focus on a new BG2EE patch finally. Based on the speed of getting things done Beamdog has displayed over the last couple years that is going to be a long wait.
True, that is a problem indeed but what would you have them do ? we are not at an era of only pc or even pc and apple anymore, people using different platforms now days. I'm sure it isn't easy for anyone to wait and I'm sure that it not easy for them as well to be under this pressure of demands and that they are doing the best they can. Also why once when a game was released we could have play the game the way it come out and be ok with that and today we aren't satisfied with what we got and always want more and NOT playing a playable game just because there gonna be an update in the future????
I guess different strokes for different folks. I'm not at all satisfied with the way BG2:EE is 6 months after its release. In my singleplayer playthrough I find bugs regularly, and my multiplayer game is positively riddled with them. My friend and I usually end up spending about 20% of our time playing the game together searching the internet for a solution to a bug or bugs that literally break whichever quest line we were planning on doing that session. At the risk of sounding like the Earl of Lemongrab, I find that unacceptable.
Also, as others have pointed out, why are we waiting on a BG1 patch when BG2 is the newer release and it has glitches far more numerous and distracting? That makes no sense to me.
We are now officially at 6 months since the release of BG2EE (and about a week away from 6 months since any non-beta patches for it) and 6 months since the release of 1.2 for BGEE. The being a small team argument I think has been used way too much. If this was such a problem then they should have either contracted out necessary fixes to other companies or renegotiated their contract. I have no doubt they are working hard but from my standpoint as a consumer it looks like they've been trying to support way too many platforms (apple, pc, ipad, android) given both the size of the games and the size of their team.
True, that is a problem indeed but what would you have them do ? we are not at an era of only pc or even pc and apple anymore, people using different platforms now days. I'm sure it isn't easy for anyone to wait and I'm sure that it not easy for them as well to be under this pressure of demands and that they are doing the best they can. Also why once when a game was released we could have play the game the way it come out and be ok with that and today we aren't satisfied with what we got and always want more and NOT playing a playable game just because there gonna be an update in the future????
Well apart from looking at getting additional help with the patching I also think they should consider rethinking the beta system. Whatever gains were made by offering the ability to test out new features were lost when it basically become the only means of getting patching support for BGEE (and BG2EE in particular).
There have already been a number of BG2EE "beta" patches that have been released, but people on Steam and Ipad can't get them. In part because of this beta system we now have Steam on 1.2.2030, I believe Ipad is still only on 1.2, and beamdog users are on either on 1.2.2030 (non-beta) or the beta version number (I can't check this at the moment). Anyone trying to play multiplayer at the moment with a friend that is using a different system is running the risk of having it not work because of version number differences (and one of the things the game was supposed to do was provide an improved multiplayer service and not jumble it up by having various version numbers).
No version you release is ever going to be perfect but there are a lot of fixes that could be provided for people (like the harper's call fix, the slayer form only working once fix, etc) even if they just released the latest beta build as a normal patch.
There is no denying that the beta system isn't working anymore, or that the big patch isn't such a good idea because of the fact that it taking ages for it to come out. As for BG2EE I know it is full of bugs so as I did said before I didn't even started it because of them. I was talking on BG1EE in my last post and I'm waiting for an update for BG2EE as anyone so I can play it but for now I stick with BG1EE.
My Problem with the Baldurs Gate EE Serie is that i have buy it at the first day (many time are gone) and want Play it. but everytime i start a game i found after many hours a big Gamebreaker (for me). this is than the time for me ending this round and wait for the next patch. with the next patch everything starts from new. i hate this .... after a couple starts i lose the will to start a new game. understand me i LOVE Baldurs Gate and Baldurs Gate EE its a good try in the right Direction but even if this patch its ready and BG 1 EE works (i dont think so) beginning all again with BG 2 EE (many Bugs too) . all i think in the Moment is to use the German Version from GOG.com (with cool Mods) and enjoy it without lose more time and maybe in one or two years MAYBE the game its perfekt and i can enjoy it.
I am gradually becoming a rhinoceros, for all the thickening I've experienced on these fora.
While I give Dee credit for engaging with the fans, I think that Beamdog's skin is a bit too thick; they've created an echo chamber for themselves and only seem to listen to praise. Months ago fans were discussing what sort of DLCs they wanted, debating the best rule set for BG3 and so on . . . now, most fans don't even log in to debate.
I like the game and like the business model -- but something is wrong and something needs to change.
I've read enough posts to predict the responses on the defend-beamdog-even-when-they-screw-up crowd so, in anticipation:
1. What did I expect?
A. I expected "BioWare 0.6 Mark 2" and didn't get it:
If you remake a legendary game you get all the advantages of a devoted fan base but are also burdened by high expectations. If you want fans to have low expectations remake a flop; Battlestar Gallactica was so very impressive because the writers were reinterpreting 70s cheese -- Star Wars episode jar jar binks was so unimpressive because they were mining classic nostalgia and smelting cheese.
You can't divorce the dedicated fan base from their high expectations. For 50 bucks I got BG2's engine, tons of maps, 16 NPCs and goodies with each patch. For half of that money I got engine tweaks, 4 NPCs and 6 months (and counting!) between patches. Does this any really think that BD hit the mark that Bioware set?
B. I expected BD to respond to fan requests and it hasn't done so.
Basically, if Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition is a success, we want to be ready to give the fans more of what they like. That can take a number of forms, from sequels, to expansions, to DLC. We're small and agile, so we're going to play it by ear and see where the fans take us.
Fans are asking for content and not getting it.
2. You need to realize that this is a small team, working as hard as they can . . . et cetera and et cetera.
Then something is wrong with the model -- partner with other small companies, hire some people, offer incentives to the people you are working with . . .
Do something different because what you are doing right now isn't working.
annnnnnd
While I suspect that my post will not be read kindly -- if it is even read -- I took the time to write this because I would like to see y'all succeed. bonne chance.
Just because you don't see someone from the development team responding to every complaint and angry post on the forums doesn't mean we don't read them. I think people sometimes forget that Beamdog is a team made up of people, not a collection of mindless drones who will read harsh criticism and translate it instantly into helpful feedback. That translation takes time, and the harsher the criticism is, or the more harshly it's phrased, the longer it takes to transform it into something useful.
So, no. We're not going to respond directly to every critique. Sometimes people need to vent, and sometimes that venting isn't helpful. But we still hear all of it. The thick skin @GreenWarlock mentioned earlier just means that, after the heartache and the self-flagellation, we still knuckle down and get to work.
The great thing is that our players here tend to articulate their vitriol better than on a lot of forums I've seen out there. And underneath the accusations of incompetence and threats of tickling, we know that everything that gets posted here--whether it's @Edvin wanting Adoy's belt to make Neera more powerful, or @shawne wanting the patch cycle to not take so damn long, or @bengoshi wanting people to calm down and let us do our jobs--is intended to help us make these games the best that they can be. That's a goal we can all get behind.
@Dee: Responding to criticism is one thing; acting on it is quite another. You've been promising changes since last April, but so far Beamdog has done nothing to demonstrate any interest whatsoever in the state of its existing products. You write self-congratulatory essays on the wonders of "rebranding beta testing" (as if shifting the burden of proofing your work to people who have already paid for it is some noble experiment), but where are the practical results? We're still waiting on a patch where the major issue of contention was window sizes, while BG2:EE is currently in a borderline-unplayable state.
For all your assurances that you want the games to be "the best that they can be", Beamdog seems more concerned with getting people to pay on more platforms than with helping the people who've already bought the games, and with teasing more features when the ones you've already released don't work. "We're listening" is a platitude, and it's one that loses effectiveness over time; do something about it, or don't be surprised when the tone of the criticism gets harsher.
Also, as others have pointed out, why are we waiting on a BG1 patch when BG2 is the newer release and it has glitches far more numerous and distracting? That makes no sense to me.
I think this timing has a lot to do with the Android version. Before shipping BG:EE to Android they wanted to patch up existing bugs, and this is why this patch is coming out now instead of a BG2:EE patch. My guess will be the next big BG2:EE patch will be around the time the Android version of BG2:EE comes out. Whether this is the most efficient way to work patches I have no idea, but for a multi-platform game I can understand why they would do it this way.
whether it's @Edvin wanting Adoy's belt to make Neera more powerful
Well, technically, I wanted a better belt to make Neera "less powerful"... :-) But many people (somehow) like her stupid wild magic, so I gave up. Anyway, thanks for the mention.
JI think people sometimes forget that Beamdog is a team made up of people, not a collection of mindless drones who will read harsh criticism and translate it instantly into helpful feedback.
@Dee -- thanks to responding to the criticisms! Truthfully, I think that most of the criticisms have been pretty polite. And I'll even praise myself and say that my comment took an appropriate tone and that I was right to direct my critique at something nebulous -- I don't think I criticized you, your work ethic, your writing or your wombat. I like all of the above! Wombats are under-appreciated marsupials, why should kangaroos get all of the love?
I do think that there is something wrong in your organizational structure or culture [*] if you believe that the current patch / content release schedule is good, acceptable, or praise worthy. If you have great people and no-so-great results it suggests an organizational problem.
is intended to help us make these games the best that they can be. That's a goal we can all get behind.
Agreed. And, as I think you have noted, I don't just want the games to be good -- I want this model to work. I like the idea that my money is going (mostly) to the programmers and not some suits who do nothing but collect money because they hold copyright.
I just don't think you have the organization down yet: patches every 6 months and no new content -- for however-long-it-has-been -- is working. Yet, when I read the press and the twitter comments I read lots of self-praise. I think you have done some good work and I think you can do even better. [**] But doing better starts with acknowledging that something isn't working.
[*] which are nebulous, appropriately depersonalized things [**] the collective you -- I realize that you are representing the rest of the company and you, the wombat, have more patience that I do.
p.s. -- I assume that you are putting in long hours, sounds like you need to hire more people or to support fewer platforms.
If patches came every single month, then people will complain about that too, because they have to install all their mods again or because they don't like downloading the patch every so few time. People will always complain about something, like I am complaining now because they are going to fix the time between random spawns (which was broken in 1.2 IIRC), making the game more immersive, but less challenging.
Comments
At some point, making the same mistakes over and over again stops being understandable and starts being a sign of something else altogether.
I really hope it will be IT. I don't want to restrict myself from playing Baldur's Gate any longer.
The classic example here (for me) is Dee announcing yet another new feature will be in the patch, which will make the delay seem worth it. Well, if the feature was not part of the original plan, then all this does is add even more delay to the patch, introduce more risk, and potentially allow the creep of additional bug fixes to grow and delay the patch yet again. It does not fill me with enthusiasm, it fills me with dread for an even longer delay to the final release date, yet sounds exactly what I would want to do if I were a developer and not a release manager!!
For my sins, I do indeed write software for a living, and have briefly been on the management side of the office. It was not a good fit for me, but I did gain a much deeper appreciation of what it takes to be a good manager, and to actually release quality software in a timely manner. Among other things, it means making hard decisions and saying 'no' far more often than you would like. As someone who has no insight into the actual development process of BeamDog, merely a customer, I glimpse an organization that seems to need someone better able to say 'No! That goes in the next patch' and focus on shipping the current work in progress. Sadly, people who are *good* at this are surprisingly rare, and with their weight (or more) in gold when you find them. I still hope Dee can grow into such a figure! We are already training him to have the necessarily thick skin on these fora ;~)
I will say that the feature I mentioned isn't the reason that the patch hasn't shipped yet. If it were, you can be sure it wouldn't be on the table at all.
(Because wombats have hard... Yeah, you get it.)
"Release zee patch Dee or we will taunt you another time." (Edit: It's hard to portray the 'Outrageous French Accent' here without sound.)
If that doesn't work there's always Power Word 'Tickle'...
Also I just posted this for BGEE. The biggest thing it does is restore the constitution bonus that used to be granted when you shapechange. It also addresses a bug that was making shapeshift weapons disappear after a given time and it tries to connect the correct strings with descriptions for these abilities (some of them like shapeshift: werewolf and shapeshift: flind don't appear because I couldn't find their descriptions written up anywhere internally). I took some other liberties as well so people are free to check it out.
The thing is many people aren't really even waiting for BGEE patch, rather they are waiting to for Beamdog to finish that so that they can focus on a new BG2EE patch finally. Based on the speed of getting things done Beamdog has displayed over the last couple years that is going to be a long wait.
Also, as others have pointed out, why are we waiting on a BG1 patch when BG2 is the newer release and it has glitches far more numerous and distracting? That makes no sense to me.
There have already been a number of BG2EE "beta" patches that have been released, but people on Steam and Ipad can't get them. In part because of this beta system we now have Steam on 1.2.2030, I believe Ipad is still only on 1.2, and beamdog users are on either on 1.2.2030 (non-beta) or the beta version number (I can't check this at the moment). Anyone trying to play multiplayer at the moment with a friend that is using a different system is running the risk of having it not work because of version number differences (and one of the things the game was supposed to do was provide an improved multiplayer service and not jumble it up by having various version numbers).
No version you release is ever going to be perfect but there are a lot of fixes that could be provided for people (like the harper's call fix, the slayer form only working once fix, etc) even if they just released the latest beta build as a normal patch.
As for BG2EE I know it is full of bugs so as I did said before I didn't even started it because of them. I was talking on BG1EE in my last post and I'm waiting for an update for BG2EE as anyone so I can play it but for now I stick with BG1EE.
all i think in the Moment is to use the German Version from GOG.com (with cool Mods) and enjoy it without lose more time and maybe in one or two years MAYBE the game its perfekt and i can enjoy it.
I like the game and like the business model -- but something is wrong and something needs to change.
I've read enough posts to predict the responses on the defend-beamdog-even-when-they-screw-up crowd so, in anticipation:
1. What did I expect?
A. I expected "BioWare 0.6 Mark 2" and didn't get it:
http://www.pcgamesn.com/baldur-s-gate-enhanced-edition-interview-trent-oster-building-bioware-06-mark-2
If you remake a legendary game you get all the advantages of a devoted fan base but are also burdened by high expectations. If you want fans to have low expectations remake a flop; Battlestar Gallactica was so very impressive because the writers were reinterpreting 70s cheese -- Star Wars episode jar jar binks was so unimpressive because they were mining classic nostalgia and smelting cheese.
You can't divorce the dedicated fan base from their high expectations. For 50 bucks I got BG2's engine, tons of maps, 16 NPCs and goodies with each patch. For half of that money I got engine tweaks, 4 NPCs and 6 months (and counting!) between patches. Does this any really think that BD hit the mark that Bioware set?
B. I expected BD to respond to fan requests and it hasn't done so.
Basically, if Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition is a success, we want to be ready to give the fans more of what they like. That can take a number of forms, from sequels, to expansions, to DLC. We're small and agile, so we're going to play it by ear and see where the fans take us.
Fans are asking for content and not getting it.
2. You need to realize that this is a small team, working as hard as they can . . . et cetera and et cetera.
Then something is wrong with the model -- partner with other small companies, hire some people, offer incentives to the people you are working with . . .
Do something different because what you are doing right now isn't working.
annnnnnd
While I suspect that my post will not be read kindly -- if it is even read -- I took the time to write this because I would like to see y'all succeed. bonne chance.
Just because you don't see someone from the development team responding to every complaint and angry post on the forums doesn't mean we don't read them. I think people sometimes forget that Beamdog is a team made up of people, not a collection of mindless drones who will read harsh criticism and translate it instantly into helpful feedback. That translation takes time, and the harsher the criticism is, or the more harshly it's phrased, the longer it takes to transform it into something useful.
So, no. We're not going to respond directly to every critique. Sometimes people need to vent, and sometimes that venting isn't helpful. But we still hear all of it. The thick skin @GreenWarlock mentioned earlier just means that, after the heartache and the self-flagellation, we still knuckle down and get to work.
The great thing is that our players here tend to articulate their vitriol better than on a lot of forums I've seen out there. And underneath the accusations of incompetence and threats of tickling, we know that everything that gets posted here--whether it's @Edvin wanting Adoy's belt to make Neera more powerful, or @shawne wanting the patch cycle to not take so damn long, or @bengoshi wanting people to calm down and let us do our jobs--is intended to help us make these games the best that they can be. That's a goal we can all get behind.
For all your assurances that you want the games to be "the best that they can be", Beamdog seems more concerned with getting people to pay on more platforms than with helping the people who've already bought the games, and with teasing more features when the ones you've already released don't work. "We're listening" is a platitude, and it's one that loses effectiveness over time; do something about it, or don't be surprised when the tone of the criticism gets harsher.
But many people (somehow) like her stupid wild magic, so I gave up.
Anyway, thanks for the mention.
I do think that there is something wrong in your organizational structure or culture [*] if you believe that the current patch / content release schedule is good, acceptable, or praise worthy. If you have great people and no-so-great results it suggests an organizational problem. Agreed. And, as I think you have noted, I don't just want the games to be good -- I want this model to work. I like the idea that my money is going (mostly) to the programmers and not some suits who do nothing but collect money because they hold copyright.
I just don't think you have the organization down yet: patches every 6 months and no new content -- for however-long-it-has-been -- is working. Yet, when I read the press and the twitter comments I read lots of self-praise. I think you have done some good work and I think you can do even better. [**] But doing better starts with acknowledging that something isn't working.
[*] which are nebulous, appropriately depersonalized things
[**] the collective you -- I realize that you are representing the rest of the company and you, the wombat, have more patience that I do.
p.s. -- I assume that you are putting in long hours, sounds like you need to hire more people or to support fewer platforms.
People will always complain about something, like I am complaining now because they are going to fix the time between random spawns (which was broken in 1.2 IIRC), making the game more immersive, but less challenging.