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Politics. The feel in your country.

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  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    edited January 2017

    how, on sight, do you distinguish a legal immigrant (or for that matter, a full-blown citizen) from an illegal one?

    You don't, which is why anyone who ever thought that the idea of "round them up and deport them" was a fool. Incidentally, the net rate of immigration coming from Mexico has actually *declined* in the last two or three years.

    Usually, the only way an illegal immigrant is discovered is when they get arrested and the arresting police department runs a check with Federal agencies. Other than that, they are found out only when they openly declare their status, as those two valedictorians did in Texas last May. (on a side note: if you have made it all the way through public school and you are graduating, you really don't qualify as "undocumented" any more, especially since you probably also have a driver's license along with your other documents such as your diploma)

    A 20% "border adjustment povision"? *sniff* *sniff* Smells like a tariff to me. Typically, tariffs are not a great idea and the gains the government earns from the taxes are marginal, at best.

    I have advised that we should continue to have better relations with Mexico for years. Our number one problem with Mexico is not immigration, though, but the cartels. Some of the people entering the country illegally from Mexico are doing so because they are being used as mules for the cartels and don't really have a choice.

    *************

    Meanwhile, CalExit has begun the process of collecting signatures in hopes of having enough to get a measure put onto the 2018 ballot which will amend their State constitution to remove the phrase "an inseparable part of the United States of America, and the United States Constitution is the supreme law of the land". This strikes me a childish and petty. You don't like the President so you are going to take your marbles and go home?
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850

    how, on sight, do you distinguish a legal immigrant (or for that matter, a full-blown citizen) from an illegal one?

    You don't, which is why anyone who ever thought that the idea of "round them up and deport them" was a fool. Incidentally, the net rate of immigration coming from Mexico has actually *declined* in the last two or three years.

    Usually, the only way an illegal immigrant is discovered is when they get arrested and the arresting police department runs a check with Federal agencies. Other than that, they are found out only when they openly declare their status, as those two valedictorians did in Texas last May. (on a side note: if you have made it all the way through public school and you are graduating, you really don't qualify as "undocumented" any more, especially since you probably also have a driver's license along with your other documents such as your diploma)

    A 20% "border adjustment povision"? *sniff* *sniff* Smells like a tariff to me. Typically, tariffs are not a great idea and the gains the government earns from the taxes are marginal, at best.

    I have advised that we should continue to have better relations with Mexico for years. Our number one problem with Mexico is not immigration, though, but the cartels. Some of the people entering the country illegally from Mexico are doing so because they are being used as mules for the cartels and don't really have a choice.

    *************

    Meanwhile, CalExit has begun the process of collecting signatures in hopes of having enough to get a measure put onto the 2018 ballot which will amend their State constitution to remove the phrase "an inseparable part of the United States of America, and the United States Constitution is the supreme law of the land". This strikes me a childish and petty. You don't like the President so you are going to take your marbles and go home?
    The last part is a worthless waste of time, BUT, if any state has an argument to make about this, it's California, which is so underrepresented in every area of the Federal government it is laughable (based on their population).
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963

    Indeed. In fact, when the wall is built, I'm sure no one will ever die in a DWI fatality ever again. Much like saying the words "radical Islamic terrorism" have, like a wave of a magic wand, completely wiped it off of the the face of the Earth.

    The whole point of the vid was that the criminal involved was caught once before and for some reason not deported. If he was, that couple probably survived the day.
    Would it have made a difference if the guy was in the country legally?
    If he was deported the couple would of survived the day. Can't make it much clearer.
    That wasn't the question, it was if the guy was legally in the country would it have made a difference? Would it have been OK? Because people that are legally in the country murder people all the time. His crime was not he's a "illegal alien murderer", it is he's a "murderer" who happened to be in the country illegally
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,177
    It is worth noting that immigrants tend to be less likely to commit serious crimes than the general population in developed countries.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963


    Meanwhile, CalExit has begun the process of collecting signatures in hopes of having enough to get a measure put onto the 2018 ballot which will amend their State constitution to remove the phrase "an inseparable part of the United States of America, and the United States Constitution is the supreme law of the land". This strikes me a childish and petty. You don't like the President so you are going to take your marbles and go home?

    Fight fire with fire - childish and petty administration. But yeah they are upset that as @jjstraka34 writes they are way underrepresented in the government for their population. So yeah the administration is dictating to the state without proper representation views that are opposite of what the citizens of the state voted for or want.

    There's a pending bill in CA requiring textbooks made for students in California, the nations biggest market, to include the truth of Donald Trump and the Russian hacking as identified by the 17 intelligence agencies.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    It seems to me that Calexit makes excellent sense. Hugely strong economy, quite different culture and history, bigger than most independent nations.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited January 2017
    Fardragon said:

    It seems to me that Calexit makes excellent sense. Hugely strong economy, quite different culture and history, bigger than most independent nations.

    California is one of the most productive and rich economies in the world, if it was taken as it's own nation. And aside from few enclaves, it's a liberal as it gets. Meanwhile, take a look at Mississippi, Alabama, or Arkansas and see how they stack up in the global economy.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited January 2017

    Fardragon said:

    It seems to me that Calexit makes excellent sense. Hugely strong economy, quite different culture and history, bigger than most independent nations.

    California is one of the most productive and rich economies in the world, if it was taken as it's own nation. And aside from few enclaves, it's a liberal as it gets. Meanwhile, take a look at Mississippi, Alabama, or Arkansas and see how they stack up in the global economy.
    Indeed. Those states are dead weight propped up by Californian taxpayers.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903


    How many hours of volunteer work have any of you reading this, done in the past week in your communities. I'll answer for the most of you. ZERO

    Making random accusations about other forumites does not constitute respectful behavior. And it's not fair to question their morality based on the hours they volunteer: there are many, many reasons why people do or do not volunteer. Many people are simply too busy working paying jobs to provide for their families. Other folks can't work due to disability--I know at least two people on this forum who are disabled.

    To answer your question, I've been volunteering full time at the local homeless shelter, Haven for Hope, for the past 15 months without pay. Maybe 2,000 hours in total.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155

    How many hours of volunteer work have any of you reading this, done in the past week in your communities. I'll answer for the most of you. ZERO Keyboard politicians arguing that their thought process is morally right. So sad that you guys can't see that they have you all thinking the way they want you too.

    I'll bite.

    So, you're trying to tell us we're sheep-minded because we don't do charity and we think our own morale is correct, while you're expressing a clearly christian morale (Nietzsche calls it slave morality) of helping and pro-volunteering. Isn't that one the most accepted and widely known morale in the western world? Which other way would they want you to think? Uhm, sir, you're no different than the person you're criticising. What do YOU think is "morally right"? WHAT is morally right?
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I have fairly little sympathy for illegal immigration. There are legal pathways to citizenship in this country; legal immigrants should be given priority. And it's in our nation's best interests to make sure the immigrants we do take in are the most educated and skilled that we can find, which we can't guarantee if people enter the country in secret.

    That said, immigration into this country has been at net zero for years now. Roughly the same amount of people are leaving the country as they are coming in. Which means that there is no massive flood of immigration for us to stop in the first place; just a slow trickle. If immigration was high, there'd be a reason to try and slow it down. When immigration is low, it's simply not a high priority.

    These days, the immigration issue today is the people who are already here. But studies have found that illegal immigrants are actually less likely to break other U.S. laws than citizens. I can think of two reasons why:

    1. They have a lot more to lose than the average American, due to the threat of deportation.
    2. If you're a violent criminal, it's going to be a LOT easier to get away with hurting people if you're in Mexico than if you're in the United States. Criminals tend to stay where law enforcement is weak or corrupt.

    In general, an illegal immigrant's best bet is to stay out of trouble and keep their work under the table, avoiding contact with the authorities.

    But this also means they are subject to abuse, because you can't exactly take your employer to court if he or she refuses to pay for your work, and you don't have many other options if your employer offers you a salary below minimum wage. People who avoid the authorities don't have much protection from the law, and other people will take advantage of that. Plus, the government loses tax money from income when people are paid under the table. And on top of that, when employers have access to workers who don't have the power to demand higher wages, they won't bother hiring legal immigrants or citizens for low-skilled jobs. Why hire American when you can hire slave?

    And having spent over a year helping the homeless find jobs, I can confirm that lots of Americans do want the jobs that often go to immigrants, even though those jobs often involve hard labor for minimum wage. Plenty of Americans are perfectly willing to do those jobs (though I think it's mostly because they don't realize they're worth more than that).

    Amnesty? I don't know. It would prevent illegal immigrants from being exploited, which means American companies would be more willing to hire citizens (because they can't swindle illegals anymore). But it would also encourage further immigration, and I'm not sure I want it to go back up--I'd rather it remain low.

    Deportation? I don't know. It would mean there'd be more jobs available for citizens (or perhaps robots depending on the industry), and you'd have fewer illegals being exploited. But the cost of tracking them down would be very high (finding people who don't want to be found, and know you're looking for them, is hard), and in many cases we'd be sending people back to high-crime areas run by drug cartels.

    A wall? Sure, it would keep some people out (it would at least be a little harder to get in). But immigration isn't high enough for it to make a big difference, and it would also slow down trade with Mexico--you'd have fewer places for companies to transport goods between Mexico and the U.S. Plus, the construction would be extremely expensive since the border is so long. It might curb the drug supply, but restricting supply makes drug prices higher, which would strengthen the illegal drug trade.

    Rather than making the U.S. a worse place for illegals, I'd prefer to make Mexico a better place for their citizens. That's mostly Mexico's job--they're in the best position to make it happen--but we could make a huge impact that by weakening the drug cartels. We have several means of doing so:

    1. Strengthening law enforcement and attacking the drug trade directly.
    2. Improving domestic education and infrastructure, decreasing Americans' demand for illicit substances.
    3. Stronger rehabilitation treatments for drug offenders, decreasing drug consumption after release.
    4. Legalization/decriminalization of drug possession (with restrictions/tariffs/bans on drugs coming from Mexico) to starve the drug cartels of their only source of income.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    @semiticgod agreed. If you think things through propping up Mexico makes way more sense than building a wall. But politicians (and businesses focused on quarterly profits) look at the short game.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811

    What I never get about this dumb wall thing is --- where's the wall around Canada?

    Well...

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    deltago said:

    What I never get about this dumb wall thing is --- where's the wall around Canada?

    Well...

    haha

    Fine, let's make a hedge around Mexico and make Canada pay for it.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited January 2017
    The 120 day ban on refugees and INDEFINITE ban on Syrian refugees is reprehensible and a sign of total moral decay at the top of our government. We are in NO danger from these people. What makes it worse is that it is Holocaust Rememberance Day. We have turned away the needy before, to eternal shame. Seriously, just tear down the Statue of Liberty. It's meaningless and honestly disgusting that we present it as a symbol of this country.
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,177
    Theresa May's decision to rush and meet Trump was interesting. One suspects that she wanted to plead for the trade deal before he could say so many crazy things that even Brits would start to baulk. It will be fascinating to watch Brexiteers explain how the Special Relationship justifies ignoring X... but Britain hardly has a choice but to kick ethics to the kerb if it's remaking its trade relations...
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    Mantis37 said:

    Theresa May's decision to rush and meet Trump was interesting. One suspects that she wanted to plead for the trade deal before he could say so many crazy things that even Brits would start to baulk. It will be fascinating to watch Brexiteers explain how the Special Relationship justifies ignoring X... but Britain hardly has a choice but to kick ethics to the kerb if it's remaking its trade relations...

    The two sinking ships reached out to each other for a helping hand.

    On another topic, diid anyone mention chief strategist to the president neo-nazi bannon told the media to shut up and that they were the opposition party, not the lowly democrats. And since they got the Trump election wrong it would be a stain on them forever and ever and ever. Talk about overinflated sense of worth lol (not to mention delusional but par for the course there).

    No big deal though right with all the other stuff going south.
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975

    The 120 day ban on refugees and INDEFINITE ban on Syrian refugees is reprehensible and a sign of total moral decay at the top of our government. We are in NO danger from these people. What makes it worse is that it is Holocaust Rememberance Day. We have turned away the needy before, to eternal shame. Seriously, just tear down the Statue of Liberty. It's meaningless and honestly disgusting that we present it as a symbol of this country.

    Well, on the bright side, even under Trump you're no Australia. At least not until it becomes bipartisan orthodoxy to stick refugees in concentration camps!

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Mantis37 said:

    Theresa May's decision to rush and meet Trump was interesting. One suspects that she wanted to plead for the trade deal before he could say so many crazy things that even Brits would start to baulk. It will be fascinating to watch Brexiteers explain how the Special Relationship justifies ignoring X... but Britain hardly has a choice but to kick ethics to the kerb if it's remaking its trade relations...

    She has a lot of experience of soothing the egos of men she hates, having worked in Cameron's Cabinet for something like 10 years.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited January 2017
    There are permanent, LEGAL residents of this country being stopped from re-entering the country and told to return to their "point of origin". They live and work here within the boundaries of the law, and Trump has exiled them to nothingness. This is what you get when you play with a fascist flame for 40 years and it ignites. He told you about the Muslim ban, and one week in, it's here. I'm done listening to people say Trump isn't going to either be as bad as everyone thinks or that he won't do what he outlined in the campaign. Because you're just flat-out wrong. He's already doing them. We're inching dangerously close to being a pariah nation. Republicans need to be made to own this monster til the end of time.

    Someone astutely pointed out today on Twitter that when modern empires collapse, it doesn't happen slowly, but with stunning speed. We now all have a front row seat.
  • StormvesselStormvessel Member Posts: 654

    As I've mentioned before, Nazism did not start with concentration camps. It took the better part of a decade to reach that point. And it started with the demonizing of "the other" and had about the same percentage of hardcore suppport as Trump does now. Hitler never received more than 33% of a legitimate vote. It starts with being ok when something happens to "those people". You can't start the history of Nazism at gas chambers, because it ignores how it got there. The world came to Berlin in '36 for the Olympics. Seeing the signs well in advance of any atrocities is the ONLY way to prevent it. If we wait til the extreme to point out the similarities, it's already far, far too late.

    It's true that Hitler was hated by about half of Germans and loved by about half of Germans when he first took power. But then he started really changing things, and only a few short years later Germany was completely reborn...by then it was unstoppable. Germany was beholden completely to Adolf Hitler.

    But do you think Trump is even 1/10 as capable as Hitler? Hitler was a devil, but he was brilliant in his use of propaganda and had a command of oratory that the world still hasn't seen matched. As evil as Hitler was, Trump wouldn't measure up to a pimple on Hitler's ass. So let's not pretend for a second that Trump represents that degree of a threat.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963

    As I've mentioned before, Nazism did not start with concentration camps. It took the better part of a decade to reach that point. And it started with the demonizing of "the other" and had about the same percentage of hardcore suppport as Trump does now. Hitler never received more than 33% of a legitimate vote. It starts with being ok when something happens to "those people". You can't start the history of Nazism at gas chambers, because it ignores how it got there. The world came to Berlin in '36 for the Olympics. Seeing the signs well in advance of any atrocities is the ONLY way to prevent it. If we wait til the extreme to point out the similarities, it's already far, far too late.

    It's true that Hitler was hated by about half of Germans and loved by about half of Germans when he first took power. But then he started really changing things, and only a few short years later Germany was completely reborn...by then it was unstoppable. Germany was beholden completely to Adolf Hitler.

    But do you think Trump is even 1/10 as capable as Hitler? Hitler was a devil, but he was brilliant in his use of propaganda and had a command of oratory that the world still hasn't seen matched. As evil as Hitler was, Trump wouldn't measure up to a pimple on Hitler's ass. So let's not pretend for a second that Trump represents that degree of a threat.
    I don't know. Trump could very well measure up to a pimple on Hitler's ass. But seriously, he's playing right into the dictator's playbook. It would be easy if he does take absolute power to look back and say oh here's where things started to go south like when he started attacking the press and banning people.

    It's clear one party, the party with the majority, will not do anything to stop him. He's attacking the press and anybody that at all criticizes him. If he does away with the press, then the only information we'll get about him will be state run news er Fox News praising him.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850

    As I've mentioned before, Nazism did not start with concentration camps. It took the better part of a decade to reach that point. And it started with the demonizing of "the other" and had about the same percentage of hardcore suppport as Trump does now. Hitler never received more than 33% of a legitimate vote. It starts with being ok when something happens to "those people". You can't start the history of Nazism at gas chambers, because it ignores how it got there. The world came to Berlin in '36 for the Olympics. Seeing the signs well in advance of any atrocities is the ONLY way to prevent it. If we wait til the extreme to point out the similarities, it's already far, far too late.

    It's true that Hitler was hated by about half of Germans and loved by about half of Germans when he first took power. But then he started really changing things, and only a few short years later Germany was completely reborn...by then it was unstoppable. Germany was beholden completely to Adolf Hitler.

    But do you think Trump is even 1/10 as capable as Hitler? Hitler was a devil, but he was brilliant in his use of propaganda and had a command of oratory that the world still hasn't seen matched. As evil as Hitler was, Trump wouldn't measure up to a pimple on Hitler's ass. So let's not pretend for a second that Trump represents that degree of a threat.
    I don't know. Trump could very well measure up to a pimple on Hitler's ass. But seriously, he's playing right into the dictator's playbook. It would be easy if he does take absolute power to look back and say oh here's where things started to go south like when he started attacking the press and banning people.

    It's clear one party, the party with the majority, will not do anything to stop him. He's attacking the press and anybody that at all criticizes him. If he does away with the press, then the only information we'll get about him will be state run news er Fox News praising him.
    Fox News isn't just now State TV (and make no mistake, it is). Trump is actually WATCHING Fox News at night and basically copying their chyrons right into his tweets. There is ample evidence to suggest he sent out his Chicago tweet almost right after watching a segment about it on Bill O'Reilly.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850

    As I've mentioned before, Nazism did not start with concentration camps. It took the better part of a decade to reach that point. And it started with the demonizing of "the other" and had about the same percentage of hardcore suppport as Trump does now. Hitler never received more than 33% of a legitimate vote. It starts with being ok when something happens to "those people". You can't start the history of Nazism at gas chambers, because it ignores how it got there. The world came to Berlin in '36 for the Olympics. Seeing the signs well in advance of any atrocities is the ONLY way to prevent it. If we wait til the extreme to point out the similarities, it's already far, far too late.

    It's true that Hitler was hated by about half of Germans and loved by about half of Germans when he first took power. But then he started really changing things, and only a few short years later Germany was completely reborn...by then it was unstoppable. Germany was beholden completely to Adolf Hitler.

    But do you think Trump is even 1/10 as capable as Hitler? Hitler was a devil, but he was brilliant in his use of propaganda and had a command of oratory that the world still hasn't seen matched. As evil as Hitler was, Trump wouldn't measure up to a pimple on Hitler's ass. So let's not pretend for a second that Trump represents that degree of a threat.
    I think Trump's demeanor is far more Mussolini than Hitler. Trump is not an orator, and, despite everything, there is no denying, even today, the kind of hypnotic power Hitler's speeches seem to convey. I don't speak a word of German, but they seem frighteningly effective simply from a theatrical standpoint. I don't know if Trump is that kind of master of propaganda, but I'm 100% sure that Steve Bannon is. The ban on Muslim refugees yesterday, it's timing, was all Steve Bannon.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    Who’s Really In Charge? Fox News or Donald Trump?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me_fNPEhfVY
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850

    Who’s Really In Charge? Fox News or Donald Trump?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me_fNPEhfVY

    Fox News and Rush Limbaugh (and by extension, Roger Ailes, til recently) have been in charge of the Republican Party since Clinton's first term in 1992.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited January 2017
    NYC Taxi Drivers are now refusing to pick up or drop off anyone at JFK Airport due to Trump's Executive Order that has left at least dozens of legal residents stranded in limbo in airports. Can we not all admit this is insane?? And not a single Republican has the balls to speak out about it. Or perhaps most of them agree with it. Either way, they are cravens on a monumental scale. Cowards. All of them.

    Also, this. A million times:



    And this, spontaneous and filled with righteous anger. Something has to give:



    To those who say fascism isn't here, you're wrong:



    The madness doesn't stop:



    Jesus christ:



    Does ANYONE want to defend this???




    Trump has now woken a beast. An illegitimate hate-monger without a single shred of decency in his entire body. And someone who craves approval above all else. How does he respond when he has to contend with the fact that the majority of this country finds him to be a despicable charlatan??
    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    I wonder if the new government realises this is what causes radicalisation
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited January 2017

    I wonder if the new government realises this is what causes radicalisation

    I think some of them are well aware. Namely, Steve Bannon.

    There are lawyers working furiously at airports across the country trying to make sure legal residents can re-enter the country, see relatives, or just GET HOME!!! A white American would never have to imagine putting up with this kind of indignity.

This discussion has been closed.