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Politics. The feel in your country.

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  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266
    mf2112 said:

    Also for those who think it can't happen here, read this and see just how fast it already is.

    http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2016/11/10/royal-oak-middle-wall-viral/93582256/

    First off, that is very horrible and I heard about it on facebook. It is disgusting to me.

    But we ARE doing something about it now. Putting it on the media, telling people about it, and denouncing that behavior nationwide.

    My point stands that such cannot be compared to the Nazi's and the KKK. If you believe that, then I would suggest learning your history. They are not even close.
    mf2112 said:

    Trump cannot arbitrarily impose term limits. This is already settled law. The only way is with a constitutional amendment and that is extremely unlikely to say the least. If you actually read his platform he has proposed a number of things which he simply will not have authority to do as President. Congress being Republican doesn't mean they will rubber stamp his proposals, McConnell has already said several at not going to happen. Especially term limits.

    The thing about Trump is that Trump is always for Trump. He showed how quickly he was willing to lie, bulldoze, and steamroll right over the actual Republicans in the primary, and then Hillary, but never lose sight of the fact that all of his moves are meant to benefit him and nobody else. If you look at his prior business deals, there can never be a win-win situation. If you win, then Trump loses and he won't stand for that.

    Very true. But if you only vote for candidates that will do what they say, then you will always be disappointed. I support the platform to exact term limits on all elected politicians. I can say that I have found some measure of common ground with the orange creep from New York. It would benefit all of us as Americans to do the same, rather than continuing to feed hatred and spite into our lives and the lives of those around us.

    If the electoral college decides to elect Hilary as our president this year in December (as is their right), I will support her as I always have without hatred and unfair comparisons to the KKK and the Nazi's, which has happened to her as well. I may not agree with her platform, and I may believe she is corrupt, but I will refuse to spread hatred to my fellow voters for exercising their right to vote.
  • TakisMegasTakisMegas Member Posts: 835
    I would like to remind you all that comparing Trump to Nazis is disgusting. Have you had any family members killed by a Nazi? How bout a whole town of 11 000. Or maybe 4.5 million just in the Agean area of Europe. I'm not even gonna bring up the Jewish totals. I suggest you find another way of naming your demons and QUICK.
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266

    Hate crimes and fear already in Trump's america

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/10/us/post-election-hate-crimes-and-fears-trnd/index.html

    Donald tweeted about protestors against his racist and xenophobic discourse are being very unfair

    Racist graffiti has been drawn on buildings all over America, and outlawed racial crimes have been committed all over America, during Obamas administration and before. As I said, racism is on both sides of the fence. Because independant high school and college racists and haters (who were racists and haters before the election, and would have drawn those things with or without Truml) have decided to use Trump as part of their graffiti is not an excuse for the rest of us to compare this to the Nazi's and the KKK, which isn't even in the same league.

    We should all be above this nonsense of hating the other side, just as Hillary urged us all to do before the results of the election came in.
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    edited November 2016

    Hate crimes and fear already in Trump's america

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/10/us/post-election-hate-crimes-and-fears-trnd/index.html

    Donald tweeted about protestors against his racist and xenophobic discourse are being very unfair

    Racist graffiti has been drawn on buildings all over America, and outlawed racial crimes have been committed all over America, during Obamas administration and before. As I said, racism is on both sides of the fence. Because independant high school and college racists and haters (who were racists and haters before the election, and would have drawn those things with or without Truml) have decided to use Trump as part of their graffiti is not an excuse for the rest of us to compare this to the Nazi's and the KKK, which isn't even in the same league.

    We should all be above this nonsense of hating the other side, just as Hillary urged us all to do before the results of the election came in.
    Please don't pretend racism is equally allocated across both "sides". It isn't even close.

    The KKK is on one side. http://m.chron.com/news/nation-world/nation/article/KKK-sends-fliers-in-Birmingham-after-Trump-10606404.php
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    @BillyYank He may be right, I guess we will find out after Jan 20.
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266
    Dee said:

    I would like to remind you all that comparing Trump to Nazis is disgusting. Have you had any family members killed by a Nazi? How bout a whole town of 11 000. Or maybe 4.5 million just in the Agean area of Europe. I'm not even gonna bring up the Jewish totals. I suggest you find another way of naming your demons and QUICK.

    It's a slight reductio ad absurdum, but a lot of people, when they compare him to Hitler, are pointing to Hitler's rise to power, more so than the specific things he did. Before Hitler became Fuhrer, he hadn't committed genocide. But he managed to gain power by doing exactly what Trump did (marginalizing and scapegoating entire groups of people based on their ethnicity, country of origin, and religion), and that's deeply worrisome.

    The fear among people comparing Trump to Hitler isn't that he's committed genocide; it's that he may be opening the door for himself or someone else to do it later. (And neo-nazis have endorsed Trump for exactly those reasons, as has the KKK.)

    For what it's worth, I don't think that's likely to happen. The world has, presumably, learned its lesson--and there are plenty of people already speaking up against the rhetoric. But the comparison is valuable, because it reminds us that we need to step up when we see dangerous people accumulating dangerous amounts of power.
    Anyone who truly believes that Hitler's rise to power is similar to Trump's doesn't know anything about history, other than as told as fireside ghost stories.
    Hitler's first move, after the loss of WW1 was to attack and murder members of the existing regime. During his lawful inprisonment, he wrote Mein Kampf, an anti-Semitic book that outlines his burning hatred and blame for the Jews.
    After his release, he sneakily came into power by making friends in high places and ultimately overthrowing the existing government illegally via revolt. Then he systematically killed off any who he believed had the potential willpower or desire to oppose him.
    After that he adopted the name Father as a symbol for how his people loved him. And oh, how they all loved him before they knew who he was. He used to be adored by his people before they knew who he was.
    Then he secretly and quietly started moving the Jews out of the country where they wouldn't be seen by the Germans, preying on the overly popular anti-semitic predispositions of the time of the time and their sense of superiority to justify moving them away. His genocide was not fully known, even by his own people, until after the war.

    Trump has said sh**. That's it. No murdering, and people don't even like him. He is NOT anti black, Jew, or Muslim. He just isn't. That is the way the media has portrayed him because of what he has said. He may not like them, and his mouth gets him into trouble, but he is just not bent on destroying all non-white people like Hitler was.

    Learn your history. If there is anything that we can learn from Hitler, it is the quiet, pleasant, nice ones that everyone loves you need to watch out for.

    Personally I find it disgusting that we as Americans are calling each other Nazis and meaning it just because Trump got voted in. This is not what America is about. The hate on BOTH sides needs to stop.
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266
    mf2112 said:

    Hate crimes and fear already in Trump's america

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/10/us/post-election-hate-crimes-and-fears-trnd/index.html

    Donald tweeted about protestors against his racist and xenophobic discourse are being very unfair

    Racist graffiti has been drawn on buildings all over America, and outlawed racial crimes have been committed all over America, during Obamas administration and before. As I said, racism is on both sides of the fence. Because independant high school and college racists and haters (who were racists and haters before the election, and would have drawn those things with or without Truml) have decided to use Trump as part of their graffiti is not an excuse for the rest of us to compare this to the Nazi's and the KKK, which isn't even in the same league.

    We should all be above this nonsense of hating the other side, just as Hillary urged us all to do before the results of the election came in.
    Please don't pretend racism is equally allocated across both "sides". It isn't even close.

    The KKK is on one side. http://m.chron.com/news/nation-world/nation/article/KKK-sends-fliers-in-Birmingham-after-Trump-10606404.php
    Racist people vote on both sides of the party lines. It is just an undeniable fact.
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919

    mf2112 said:

    Hate crimes and fear already in Trump's america

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/10/us/post-election-hate-crimes-and-fears-trnd/index.html

    Donald tweeted about protestors against his racist and xenophobic discourse are being very unfair

    Racist graffiti has been drawn on buildings all over America, and outlawed racial crimes have been committed all over America, during Obamas administration and before. As I said, racism is on both sides of the fence. Because independant high school and college racists and haters (who were racists and haters before the election, and would have drawn those things with or without Truml) have decided to use Trump as part of their graffiti is not an excuse for the rest of us to compare this to the Nazi's and the KKK, which isn't even in the same league.

    We should all be above this nonsense of hating the other side, just as Hillary urged us all to do before the results of the election came in.
    Please don't pretend racism is equally allocated across both "sides". It isn't even close.

    The KKK is on one side. http://m.chron.com/news/nation-world/nation/article/KKK-sends-fliers-in-Birmingham-after-Trump-10606404.php
    Racist people vote on both sides of the party lines. It is just an undeniable fact.
    I didn't say there weren't. Please don't flippantly act as if it equally allocated between both sides. It isn't.
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266
    I believe that it is and I do not believe I was being flippant. I truly believe that those who support one side are as equally flawed by the same human tendencies of hatred and bigotry as the other. I do not believe that democrats or republicans either have the upper side in politically correct self-righteousness. I think that proponents of both sides believe their side is truly the only "pure" way, but fail to see their own faults.
    For example, the majority of racial violence are performed in the larger cities by gangs who are white, black, Latino, Asian, take your pick.
    The major cities voted for Hillary.
    The southern states of the US tend to still discriminate and hate black people and latinos.
    The southern states almost all voted for Trump.
    It is a fact that both sides are riddled with people who either hate or fear others for their differences.
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    Do you have any links or anything that demonstrates your hypothesis that "the majority of racial violence are performed in the larger cities by gangs who are white, black, Latino, Asian"?

    I was born and raised in New Orleans. The point about the southern states is a given.

    This seems like a false equivalance to be honest. Actually apples and oranges.
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266
    I'm not saying that Trump and Hillary are both racists. I'm not saying that people in the cities voted for Hillary because they are racist.
    The media and people online and facebook and rioters are doing exactly what you are speaking against, @smeagolheart . They are saying that voters who supported Trump must be racist, how else could we have possibly come to this? This has even creeped into our forum of sanctuary here on this very thread: some of us are hinting at and even alluding to that they are afraid that our country will turn into fascists and racial criminals, because how else could we have possibly elected this guy. Some of us are linking to articles and videos that are filled with pandering disdain, and even hatred, for the side that voted against their views. And I get it because this is election time, and I'm not saying I'm offended by it; I am saying that every time we point a finger, 3 more point right back at us.
    I am trying to communicate, and maybe I'm just not doing it correctly, that it is hypocrisy and completely false to say that people who support Trump support him because they are racists, or flawed in some other way. Flaws are something we all share, and racism is one of them. We both do it. We as a country. Not the republican *points finger*. Not the democrats *points finger*. We, our country, America. Both sides of America are guilty of hate, and we need to stop.
    We are all flawed human beings who deal with serious baggage from our life. That baggage leaks out in different ways for different people. Some it is racism, sexism, hatred, evil tendencies. Some it is in more positive ways. But we all are flawed.

    And my other point is, and I will fight this one because I don't see it as very popular to stand up against this issue here, that comparing Trump or anyone who voted for him on that virtue alone to the KKK or the Nazi's is absolutely ridiculous and subtly speaks of the ignorance that seeds into hatred.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    @mashedtaters I don't think anyone's comparing Trump to the KKK or Nazis. We're saying that the way he conducted his campaign has galvanized and legitimized those groups.

    Trump's policies are scary on a political level (personal freedoms being stripped away, stop-and-frisk becoming a reality for black people across the country), but it's his words that are frightening on a personal level, it's the behavior at his rallies that he doesn't condemn that is frightening on a personal level, it's the endorsements that he doesn't vehemently and definitively distance himself from that are frightening on a personal level.

    It's not enough to say "I disavow David Duke, I disavow him." You have to say, "I don't want his vote." You have to say, "I don't want his support." You have to say, "He can endorse me all he wants, but I'm not going to give him a platform to preach his dangerous ideas."

    Trump didn't do that, and that's frightening to a lot of people on a personal level. Not frightening in a dystopian "oh god the world is ending" sort of way, but in a very real, recently remembered "I'm going to have to avoid certain restaurants, certain neighborhoods, certain parts of the country if I don't want to get lynched" sort of way.

    It's not that people are worried he's going to build government camps to send all the black people, it's not that he's going to legalize slavery. It's that the people who wish he would do those things will start to act on their aggression in very real, totally illegal but no less dangerous ways.
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    False equivalence. Sorry. I am not arguing that all people don't have their flaws, but all flaws are not equal.

    I think you are reading more into prior posts than is there. I don't see anyone here directly comparing Trump or his followers to the KKK or the Nazi's, but pointing out historical similarities is not ridiculous. It is one of the only things that stops us form repeating the mistakes of history.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963

    The media and people online and facebook and rioters are doing exactly what you are speaking against, @smeagolheart .

    @mashedtaters
    People that are saying that are wrong, the people that supported trump are not necessarily racist. Though those elements do in fact exist with David Duke and the KKK endorsement if nothing else. Personally, I have a family member who I would consider a racist who frothing at the mouth supports Trump.

    It is more accurate to say that the people that supported Trump supported a racist candidate. And as @Dee says they did so either in spite of or because of the racism.

  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266
    mf2112 said:

    Do you have any links or anything that demonstrates your hypothesis that "the majority of racial violence are performed in the larger cities by gangs who are white, black, Latino, Asian"?

    I was born and raised in New Orleans. The point about the southern states is a given.

    This seems like a false equivalance to be honest. Actually apples and oranges.

    You're asking me to provide links that more gangs live in cities, and that most gangs hate each other based on race, and that, as a result of this, most racial crime in the United States is committed by gangs within gangs or against gangs?

    http://m.policemag.com/blogpost/1394/gangs-and-race
    https://www.ojjdp.gov/pubs/96natyouthgangsrvy/surv_6c.html
    http://www.amren.com/archives/reports/the-color-of-crime/
    https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/Survey-Analysis/Demographics
    http://www.queensda.org/gangviolenceandhatecrimes.html
    http://usuncut.com/black-lives-matter/black-on-black-crime/
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919

    mf2112 said:

    Do you have any links or anything that demonstrates your hypothesis that "the majority of racial violence are performed in the larger cities by gangs who are white, black, Latino, Asian"?

    I was born and raised in New Orleans. The point about the southern states is a given.

    This seems like a false equivalance to be honest. Actually apples and oranges.

    You're asking me to provide links that more gangs live in cities, and that most gangs hate each other based on race, and that, as a result of this, most racial crime in the United States is committed by gangs within gangs or against gangs?

    http://m.policemag.com/blogpost/1394/gangs-and-race
    https://www.ojjdp.gov/pubs/96natyouthgangsrvy/surv_6c.html
    http://www.amren.com/archives/reports/the-color-of-crime/
    https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/Survey-Analysis/Demographics
    http://www.queensda.org/gangviolenceandhatecrimes.html
    http://usuncut.com/black-lives-matter/black-on-black-crime/
    There is a difference between "crime" and "racial crime".
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266
    I only saw this thread yesterday, and I read everything back until the point of a few days before the election. I must say, that there were some insinuations that Trump is just like Hitler, and that all the racists in the country voted for him, and outright accusations that both he and his supporters are or must be fascists (the form of government adopted by Hitler after Italy during WW2 and made infamous by the nazis).

    That is what I was speaking out against, because no one else said anything about it, as though it was normal and acceptable. Now that we are all agreed to not do that anymore, I will agree to not bring this up anymore if no one else does. But I will speak out against this form of ignorance that seeds into hatred if I see it again. I hope that you all will take the higher road to do the same in your other socials medias as well, even though many of you supported Hillary.
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266
    You need to actually read all the articles. But if you need to read them to know that gangs of different races kill and hate each other based on race, then I don't know what to tell you.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455


    For example, the majority of racial violence are performed in the larger cities by gangs who are white, black, Latino, Asian, take your pick.
    The major cities voted for Hillary.
    The southern states of the US tend to still discriminate and hate black people and latinos.
    The southern states almost all voted for Trump.
    It is a fact that both sides are riddled with people who either hate or fear others for their differences.

    @mashedtaters I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying Trump and Hillary camps are equally racist because there exists gang violence in cities? What a jump in logic!
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    @mashedtaters You said that it was a "majority of racial violence". Again, I never said that there were no other forms.

    I respectfully submit that more "racial violence" is committed in other forms. The far too frequent targeting of racial minorities for drug crimes which whites commit at higher rates. The fact that minorities are treated more harshly than whites when stopped or arrested for the same crimes. The fact that more minorities are in prison for drug crimes which are committed by white people at higher rates. The racially targeted voter suppression in North Carolina which was specifically called out by the courts when it was shown that poor whites which also tended to vote Democratic were not targeted for disenfranchisement in the same fashion that poor blacks were.

    These are all forms of "racial violence". I believe it is now possible for them to increase. I hope more people speak out against them.
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266
    @FinneousPJ No I'm not saying that. I'm saying proponents of the Democratic Party need to get off their high horse of accusing Trump supporting for being racist; there are racist people in BOTH parties, and I am saying that proponents of BOTH parties are guilty of the same things that they accuse the other of. @mf2112 did not believe me when I said it, and I was giving an example of how it was possible.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Trump is no Nazi and no fascist. He's just the closest thing we've got among our top politicians.

    And personally, I think that says more good things about the US than bad things about Trump.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @mashedtaters There probably are, but the question is the degree of racism and number of racists.
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266
    mf2112 said:

    @mashedtaters You said that it was a "majority of racial violence". Again, I never said that there were no other forms.

    I respectfully submit that more "racial violence" is committed in other forms. The far too frequent targeting of racial minorities for drug crimes which whites commit at higher rates. The fact that minorities are treated more harshly than whites when stopped or arrested for the same crimes. The fact that more minorities are in prison for drug crimes which are committed by white people at higher rates. The racially targeted voter suppression in North Carolina which was specifically called out by the courts when it was shown that poor whites which also tended to vote Democratic were not targeted for disenfranchisement in the same fashion that poor blacks were.

    These are all forms of "racial violence". I believe it is now possible for them to increase. I hope more people speak out against them.

    I agree on all these points.

    Why is this so hard to understand:

    Your policital party preference does not determine your hatred for people based on their differences (race, sex, religion, etc,).

    What am I doing or saying wrong to convey this point? I have said it every way I possibly can imagine.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @mashedtaters That's true, but I sincerely believe that racist ideology and political affiliation are correlated. In other words people on the left are less likely to be racist.
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    @mashedtaters Please stop with the false equivalency. I never said there weren't racists in the democratic party but the actual openly avowed racists openly supported Trump all throughout the campaign and are planning a victory parade in North Carolina. theweek.com/speedreads/661379/kkk-planned-trump-victory-rally-north-carolina
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266

    @mashedtaters There probably are, but the question is the degree of racism and number of racists.

    No, that is not true. That is like saying, "I know we are bad but they are worse." Their "worse" doesn't justify our "bad," even if it's true (which history has shown this kind of thinking rarely is).
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