If you need a thief but don't think you'll have much room, make a human and go dual class. Your big priority is unlock/disarm skill since a priest can detect traps. EE will change this, unfortunately, but a Swashbuckler 8-10>Mage can get plenty of trap and lockwork done.
Bards can pickpocket the Kuldahar citizens well enough unless you kit.
A cortosis-recovered double-blade Vibroblade? totally my favorite weapon from the Star Wars universe, and the most evil and bloody one, too.
I'm much more partial to vibro-axes and mining power hammers. The latter is tough to find coated in cortosis or made of phrik, but that doesn't stop a Mandalorian antagonist in my Star Wars Saga Edition game from breaking my players' bones with it.
Anyone feel like the sub classes will unbalance the game to any significant extent? It is the thing I’m the most excited about (I’ve restarted BG1EE about 5 times because I want to play ALL THE CLASSES at those low levels) but some classes are significantly more dominant at lower levels than their vanilla counterparts you needed to choose from in IWD Vanilla.
I can see the archer for example really tearing it up. He did 80% of my damage every fight in BGEE because he was able to just stroll out of Candle Keep at THAC0 14 and half way through the game he’s level 6 and THAC0 0. The paladin subclasses are all superior to vanilla paladin’s as well (It seems like undead hunter will be worth his weight in gold). Though I don’t see Wild Mages being able to end the world the same way they could in BG2EE simply because the soft cap in IWDEE will be lower and the 9th level magic probably won’t be as dominant.
Archers will fall off a bit faster in IWD. There are no unlimited ammo launchers or ammo slot items. Nice bows and crossbows, but enhanced ammo is rare!
On top of that, foes with missile res. are quite high by fact of the numerous skeletal foes alone.
Anyone feel like the sub classes will unbalance the game to any significant extent? It is the thing I’m the most excited about (I’ve restarted BG1EE about 5 times because I want to play ALL THE CLASSES at those low levels) but some classes are significantly more dominant at lower levels than their vanilla counterparts you needed to choose from in IWD Vanilla.
I think it depends on how the devs handle the additional abilities that the vanilla classes got from HoW.
For example, vanilla bards received a variety of songs in IWD, but the devs have said that the kitted bards will not receive these extra songs, and will have to be content with just their own unique kit abilities. If the same principle is applied to the other classes, then we could see the balance maintained in such a way that the vanilla classes remain interesting and aren't simply outclassed by their kits (which often happened in BG2).
What's better? Flails or Maces? They're the two strongest one-handed blunt weapon types in the game, no? But which one's better? My character doesn't need both, but for this specific character (a solo barbarian) he will need one of them.
That is a really tough call. Misery's Herald is a great flail (well...at least it is now that I fixed it so that it correctly applies its bonuses against elves, as well as gives a chance to kill them instantly if they fail a saving throw) but Selune's Promise is pretty good against undead (again, at least now that I fixed it) and Three White Doves is even better against undead. That being said, given that there are more undead enemies that elf enemies I would recommend mace.
If you really want your barbarian to be able to shrug off damage, though, then go with morningstar--there are a couple in the game which increase your physical protection.
erm...morningstar doesn't run off the mace proficiency, does it? I do not recall at this time....
What's better? Flails or Maces? They're the two strongest one-handed blunt weapon types in the game, no? But which one's better? My character doesn't need both, but for this specific character (a solo barbarian) he will need one of them.
This choice will be really hard when all the morningstars go to the flail category ala BG2. In IWD, they're maces, meaning the Morningstar of Action/Defense are maces. Early on, flails have a slight edge with access to both the Fast Flail and Hammer Flail in rapid succession, and the Shock Flail +4 is not a bad weapon by any stretch. In EE, I'd lean towards flails, but have mace spec on hand on SOMEONE so you can White Dove your way through HoF Vale/Hand/Dorn's Lich stuff.
Alright. For this guy (solo barbarian, just in case you forgot) I'm looking at...
Axe ** Long sword ** Flail ** Mace * Long bow ** SWS ** THWS ** ? *
That'll give me a good variety of weapons, both fitting the character and being strong weapon types. And no, I'm not taking dual wield. I don't care if it's "the best thing evar", it's not logical and I don't want it. So there.
What to do for that last pip, though? Hmm... Greatswords, perhaps? It'd fit with the character, and I do think there are some good ones... Could drop the second THWS pip and put it into my unknown weapon type for even more skill with the weapon, I guess.
Why 2h weap style? The number of 2h axes is sadly low and not worth it will all them 1hers you have skilled up. I'd almost say ditch that in favor of daggers or Shortswords (with light personal preference towards daggers) and put that last pip in maces!
Daggers have some surprisingly useful procs. One definite drop is Presio's +2 Poison dagger which is save or get poisoned, and endgame, there's a +4 throwing dagger, good for barbaric hit and runs!
Hmm, a good dagger seems interesting, but I want my two-handed axes. It just fits the character I have in mind. So perhaps I'll get a single pip in daggers as well. Maybe two in dagger and one in THWS. Perhaps two in maces, one in dagger? I don't know. Choices choices...
I'm not sure that going thiefless would do any worse than cause you to miss out on a few chests of loot.
Even then you can just have a mage/sorcerer with knock
I was thinking of trapped chests, not locked ones. I think there are some traps that reset and you can't open the chest if you can't disarm the trap. I could be misremembering though.
TN Fighter/Druid Slings/Spears, Party Face, Tank NE Fighter/Mage Bows/Situational Melee NG Fighter/Mage Bows/Situational Melee CG Fighter/Cleric Slings/Hammers/Morningstars CN Fighter/Thief Bows/Large Swords
Fighter Druid served as a tank, and in hindsight, I was probably better off with a bard with a crossbow than another fighter/mage as my strategy was the standard buff steamrolling. By playing on insane and with only 5 people, I was able to cut the level deficit fairly easily from everyone being multis.
Slightly less successful party, but hilariously fun was:
NE Rogue with maxed pickpocket Dualed Illusionist @6, Bows/Daggers, Party Face, Party "Tank" CN Fighter Dualed Conjurer @9, Bows/situational melee LG Transmuter, Had an absurdly high strength from various items and buffs, but ultimately rarely used it. LE Necromancer, Generally decent caster, was used for identifying objects as he was the only one with a decent wisdom/int.
I cannot begin to explain how good pickpocketing is, especially in an all caster party. The things you get from some people you don't normally kill are insanely useful.
Just a quick question: is it completly silly to have a party with only single class characters?
I hope not, because the way things are looking now, I'll probably end up doing the same thing.
I generally prefer single class characters because they can level up and reach higher level spells/abilities more quickly than multis. I find that multi characters tend to be more powerful in the early stages of a game, but come to feel like a liability toward the middle and later stages, due to their slower leveling. Also, I find that characters are typically more interesting when you choose kits, whereas multi and even dual'd characters can often seem generic, and I also typically find it harder to RP a persona for a multi or dual'd character.
Icewind Dale heavily rewards parties that multi/dual class. You only need one thief. The first choice is how many player characters you will have. 3, 4, and 6 members are the most common. My favorite 6-player party was:
Note that this party has very poor divine casting options - especially in the early game when it literally has none - and no one who can turn undead.
To mitigate this problem, according to your preferences, you may want to either dual- or multi-class one of the mages to cleric, or substitute a druid for one of them (either the fighter->mage or the pure mage). Either option reduces your AoE capabilities but improves your healing and party-buffing slightly (just be sure to leave yourself with at least one mage in addition to the bard). It is even possible to multiclass the ranger/cleric to provide some healing in the early game, but this significantly weakens it as a caster in the late game and HoF.
The gnome Fighter/Thief provides more than adequate thieving capabilities and becomes a powerful backstabber/sneak attacker, but more importantly gets a very powerful helmet and I prefer the slightly better melee capabilities of a gnome to the SLIGHTLY better thieving and saves of a halfling. The Paladin receives excellent class-specific equipment and dialogue options. Bards are excellent - especially in HoW and TotL/HoF.
Unspecified (but likely dwarven) Barbarian (Need some shorty with a beard in my party, and its IWD people... Barbarians are at home here)
Unspecified Stalker (Because sneak attacks! right? And scouting. And rangers are cool. And Stalker fits the setting of IWD I think)
Human Vanilla Bard (Because... You all know why...)
Unspecified Druid (unsure about the kit, but everyone keeps saying a druid is great in IWD... I've never used them much, so im happy to try)
Elf or Human Wild Mage (Cows dropping from the sky is the nuts)
And the part im not sure about. There's a distinct lack of cleric in this party. And thief. So my options are:
DC of MC of T+C. But im not sure of where to DC and still have enough thief abilities for all the traps and locks. I wouldnt need it for the healing i think, im sure that can be handled by the druid and the bard song? Would miss the undead instagib tho.
Or T/F for simply MOAR sneak attacks, and more tankyness to protect the casters.
Paladin. Turn undead as well as a multiclassed cleric, and enhanced IWD spellcasting. With a druid you don't really need a full cleric as well.
A paladin will not have much room for Prot Evil '10, and definitely no room for Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. Even multiclassed and a little slower to level, the Priest will be at Lv 7 spells long before the knight. Either way, Ranger/Cleric is better with an extra APR when shieldless and blunt being the best weapon type.
Paladin. Turn undead as well as a multiclassed cleric, and enhanced IWD spellcasting. With a druid you don't really need a full cleric as well.
A paladin will not have much room for Prot Evil '10, and definitely no room for Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. Even multiclassed and a little slower to level, the Priest will be at Lv 7 spells long before the knight. Either way, Ranger/Cleric is better with an extra APR when shieldless and blunt being the best weapon type.
There is already a druid and a ranger. That's plenty of divine spells, even with the Paladin's casting being behind the multiclassed option. What is lacking is turn undead, and a paladin will generally be as good at that as a multiclassed cleric. Add to that what a paladin gets anyway: protection from evil, Smite Evil, and abilities from whichever kit you go for. Plus a higher hp total. That easily beats a slow levelling, no-longer-broken Ranger/Cleric.
@Fardragon This conversation has been very helpful for me as I've been agonizing over a party decision. The party I'm planning is a 5-man party of Undead Hunter, Barbarian, Druid, Bard, Thief/mage. It sounds like you think I'll be fine without a Cleric as Druid provides divine spells and Paladin can turn undead. Correct?
@Fardragon This conversation has been very helpful for me as I've been agonizing over a party decision. The party I'm planning is a 5-man party of Undead Hunter, Barbarian, Druid, Bard, Thief/mage. It sounds like you think I'll be fine without a Cleric as Druid provides divine spells and Paladin can turn undead. Correct?
Sounds good to me, and with that sixth slot empty, the Paladin will level up faster, making his Turn Undead become more useful.
I've decided I will use a utility gnome for the last slot. Cleric/Thief, provide minor buffs and healing, and unlocking chests and trap detection. I'm not keen on paladins, so I didnt even consider one as a valid option.
Im petty sure about this setup now.
Barbarian, Great Swords
Stalker, Dual Longswords/Hammers/Maces (depending on situation)
Vanilla Bard
Avenger (was thinking maybe Fighter 3 -> Druid for added melee capabilities, but the Wizard spells the pure Avenger gets are too tempting I think.)
Wild Mage
Cleric/Thief
No paladin, no no no, I dont care about Pale Justice.
*dons vestments of Loviatar* Might I interest you in the latest model Paladin, the Blackguard? It comes with exciting new features like more alignments and a smite ability that is actually useful. Also, why simply obliterate undead with your holy symbol, when you can bend them to your will and THEN destroy them? If you're interested, we're holding a potluck at the Temple of Agonized Wailing!
I simply dont see where a paladin would fit in. Im not sacrificing the Barbarian, because its Icewind Dale.... And Stalker is too good to pass up on. Scouting and then opening with a backstab after which the barbarian charges in and wrecks whatever is left, is just too awesome to pass up on. Unless I could switch the utility gnome out, but I think its just too damn annoying not being able to disarm traps.
I have no idea why people like Barbarian when the Dwarven Defender is better in every way that matters. HP? Same 1d12? Resistances? The Dwarf will get those too, AND can get more at the drop of a hat at lvl 1. Movespeed? Not such a big deal here. If you send your DD ahead of everyone else, he'll take the brunt anyway. Backstab Immunity? Minimal value in 2 small mini areas... and having high slash resistance trumps them anyway.
Barbarian Rage is not terrible, but I'd rather not risk the damage, especially on HoF.
I have no idea why people like Barbarian when the Dwarven Defender is better in every way that matters. HP? Same 1d12? Resistances? The Dwarf will get those too, AND can get more at the drop of a hat at lvl 1. Movespeed? Not such a big deal here. If you send your DD ahead of everyone else, he'll take the brunt anyway. Backstab Immunity? Minimal value in 2 small mini areas... and having high slash resistance trumps them anyway.
Barbarian Rage is not terrible, but I'd rather not risk the damage, especially on HoF.
The status immunities.
Also, the extra speed. It's handy when your tank runs faster than the rest of the party and gets ahead naturally.
Comments
Bards can pickpocket the Kuldahar citizens well enough unless you kit.
But I appreciate that you liked them. When I imagine any new RPG character, the first step is always to find a cool portrait to represent him well.
I can see the archer for example really tearing it up. He did 80% of my damage every fight in BGEE because he was able to just stroll out of Candle Keep at THAC0 14 and half way through the game he’s level 6 and THAC0 0. The paladin subclasses are all superior to vanilla paladin’s as well (It seems like undead hunter will be worth his weight in gold). Though I don’t see Wild Mages being able to end the world the same way they could in BG2EE simply because the soft cap in IWDEE will be lower and the 9th level magic probably won’t be as dominant.
On top of that, foes with missile res. are quite high by fact of the numerous skeletal foes alone.
For example, vanilla bards received a variety of songs in IWD, but the devs have said that the kitted bards will not receive these extra songs, and will have to be content with just their own unique kit abilities. If the same principle is applied to the other classes, then we could see the balance maintained in such a way that the vanilla classes remain interesting and aren't simply outclassed by their kits (which often happened in BG2).
If you really want your barbarian to be able to shrug off damage, though, then go with morningstar--there are a couple in the game which increase your physical protection.
erm...morningstar doesn't run off the mace proficiency, does it? I do not recall at this time....
This choice will be really hard when all the morningstars go to the flail category ala BG2. In IWD, they're maces, meaning the Morningstar of Action/Defense are maces. Early on, flails have a slight edge with access to both the Fast Flail and Hammer Flail in rapid succession, and the Shock Flail +4 is not a bad weapon by any stretch. In EE, I'd lean towards flails, but have mace spec on hand on SOMEONE so you can White Dove your way through HoF Vale/Hand/Dorn's Lich stuff.
Axe **
Long sword **
Flail **
Mace *
Long bow **
SWS **
THWS **
? *
That'll give me a good variety of weapons, both fitting the character and being strong weapon types. And no, I'm not taking dual wield. I don't care if it's "the best thing evar", it's not logical and I don't want it. So there.
What to do for that last pip, though? Hmm... Greatswords, perhaps? It'd fit with the character, and I do think there are some good ones... Could drop the second THWS pip and put it into my unknown weapon type for even more skill with the weapon, I guess.
Daggers have some surprisingly useful procs. One definite drop is Presio's +2 Poison dagger which is save or get poisoned, and endgame, there's a +4 throwing dagger, good for barbaric hit and runs!
By far my most successful parties were
TN Fighter/Druid Slings/Spears, Party Face, Tank
NE Fighter/Mage Bows/Situational Melee
NG Fighter/Mage Bows/Situational Melee
CG Fighter/Cleric Slings/Hammers/Morningstars
CN Fighter/Thief Bows/Large Swords
Fighter Druid served as a tank, and in hindsight, I was probably better off with a bard with a crossbow than another fighter/mage as my strategy was the standard buff steamrolling. By playing on insane and with only 5 people, I was able to cut the level deficit fairly easily from everyone being multis.
Slightly less successful party, but hilariously fun was:
NE Rogue with maxed pickpocket Dualed Illusionist @6, Bows/Daggers, Party Face, Party "Tank"
CN Fighter Dualed Conjurer @9, Bows/situational melee
LG Transmuter, Had an absurdly high strength from various items and buffs, but ultimately rarely used it.
LE Necromancer, Generally decent caster, was used for identifying objects as he was the only one with a decent wisdom/int.
I cannot begin to explain how good pickpocketing is, especially in an all caster party. The things you get from some people you don't normally kill are insanely useful.
I generally prefer single class characters because they can level up and reach higher level spells/abilities more quickly than multis. I find that multi characters tend to be more powerful in the early stages of a game, but come to feel like a liability toward the middle and later stages, due to their slower leveling. Also, I find that characters are typically more interesting when you choose kits, whereas multi and even dual'd characters can often seem generic, and I also typically find it harder to RP a persona for a multi or dual'd character.
The way things are looking now, I'll probably be fleeing right alongside you. ;-)
1. Human Paladin
2. Ranger 8 -> Cleric (Chaotic Good)
3. Gnome Fighter / Thief
4. Half-Elf Bard
5. Mage (unspecialized)
6. Fighter 9 -> Mage
Note that this party has very poor divine casting options - especially in the early game when it literally has none - and no one who can turn undead.
To mitigate this problem, according to your preferences, you may want to either dual- or multi-class one of the mages to cleric, or substitute a druid for one of them (either the fighter->mage or the pure mage). Either option reduces your AoE capabilities but improves your healing and party-buffing slightly (just be sure to leave yourself with at least one mage in addition to the bard). It is even possible to multiclass the ranger/cleric to provide some healing in the early game, but this significantly weakens it as a caster in the late game and HoF.
The gnome Fighter/Thief provides more than adequate thieving capabilities and becomes a powerful backstabber/sneak attacker, but more importantly gets a very powerful helmet and I prefer the slightly better melee capabilities of a gnome to the SLIGHTLY better thieving and saves of a halfling. The Paladin receives excellent class-specific equipment and dialogue options. Bards are excellent - especially in HoW and TotL/HoF.
Unspecified (but likely dwarven) Barbarian (Need some shorty with a beard in my party, and its IWD people... Barbarians are at home here)
Unspecified Stalker (Because sneak attacks! right? And scouting. And rangers are cool. And Stalker fits the setting of IWD I think)
Human Vanilla Bard (Because... You all know why...)
Unspecified Druid (unsure about the kit, but everyone keeps saying a druid is great in IWD... I've never used them much, so im happy to try)
Elf or Human Wild Mage (Cows dropping from the sky is the nuts)
And the part im not sure about. There's a distinct lack of cleric in this party. And thief. So my options are:
DC of MC of T+C. But im not sure of where to DC and still have enough thief abilities for all the traps and locks. I wouldnt need it for the healing i think, im sure that can be handled by the druid and the bard song? Would miss the undead instagib tho.
Or T/F for simply MOAR sneak attacks, and more tankyness to protect the casters.
Or T/M because MOAR spells is awesome.
What do you guys think?
Im petty sure about this setup now.
Barbarian, Great Swords
Stalker, Dual Longswords/Hammers/Maces (depending on situation)
Vanilla Bard
Avenger (was thinking maybe Fighter 3 -> Druid for added melee capabilities, but the Wizard spells the pure Avenger gets are too tempting I think.)
Wild Mage
Cleric/Thief
No paladin, no no no, I dont care about Pale Justice.
*dons vestments of Loviatar* Might I interest you in the latest model Paladin, the Blackguard? It comes with exciting new features like more alignments and a smite ability that is actually useful. Also, why simply obliterate undead with your holy symbol, when you can bend them to your will and THEN destroy them? If you're interested, we're holding a potluck at the Temple of Agonized Wailing!
Barbarian Rage is not terrible, but I'd rather not risk the damage, especially on HoF.
Also, the extra speed. It's handy when your tank runs faster than the rest of the party and gets ahead naturally.