There is a good reason for selecting sorcerers: if I remember correctly, scrolls are in short supply in IWD. If you have more than 3 learn-from-scrolls casters in your party you won't have enough spells.
Technically, there are no "mage kits" other than Wild Mage. There are "specialist schools".
I don't care about that. Everyone will get what they can, specifically their own school's magic. It's not meant to be an easy game by any means. Just an amusing challenge.
And just to give you some perspective, my last IWDEE testing run was a human Inquisitor, half-orc fighter-thief, dwarven barbarian, half-elf fighter-druid, human bard, and a human fighter>mage (dualled at level two just so I could get access to multiple pips and bows). I tend to follow the Minsc philosophy of swords for everyone.
The two multis, dual, and bard made the beginning of the game a bit of a challenge since they're so slow-developing. Once I started hitting level 5-6ish it got a lot better and the game was a lot smoother.
I'm actually mulling over a party that's a bit similar to yours, with an inquisitor, barbarian, and half-orc F/T (mainly because I have unused custom portraits that are ideal for these IMO).
However, it would seem that your party is sorely lacking in priestly abilities (no cleric at all, and only one multi druid). Do you think it would have been more advisable to have a cleric (perhaps dualed from fighter), mage, and cleric/mage multi in place of the latter three characters?
IWD has tough battles, yo'll need at least 2 mages, one of them a multiclass, maybe; 2 clerics or 3, 2 of them multiclass; 2 pure fighters, and at least 1 main ranged one; stick to one thief, you choose if multi or pure.
While all this advice here is very much appreciated, it also seems a bit overwhelming.
It's going to be very difficult (if not impossible) to cram all these recommendations into a single six-person party.
I don't care about that. Everyone will get what they can, specifically their own school's magic. It's not meant to be an easy game by any means. Just an amusing challenge.
If the objective is to be challenging, why ask which schools are the "best"?
The most challenging and amusing option would be 6 wild mages.
IWD has tough battles, yo'll need at least 2 mages, one of them a multiclass, maybe; 2 clerics or 3, 2 of them multiclass; 2 pure fighters, and at least 1 main ranged one; stick to one thief, you choose if multi or pure.
[/spoiler] While all this advice here is very much appreciated, it also seems a bit overwhelming.
It's going to be very difficult (if not impossible) to cram all these recommendations into a single six-person party.
And just to give you some perspective, my last IWDEE testing run was a human Inquisitor, half-orc fighter-thief, dwarven barbarian, half-elf fighter-druid, human bard, and a human fighter>mage (dualled at level two just so I could get access to multiple pips and bows). I tend to follow the Minsc philosophy of swords for everyone.
The two multis, dual, and bard made the beginning of the game a bit of a challenge since they're so slow-developing. Once I started hitting level 5-6ish it got a lot better and the game was a lot smoother.
I'm actually mulling over a party that's a bit similar to yours, with an inquisitor, barbarian, and half-orc F/T (mainly because I have unused custom portraits that are ideal for these IMO).
However, it would seem that your party is sorely lacking in priestly abilities (no cleric at all, and only one multi druid). Do you think it would have been more advisable to have a cleric (perhaps dualed from fighter), mage, and cleric/mage multi in place of the latter three characters?
It was definitely low on clerical ability--I think Dragon's Eye took me a week in game time from all the resting--but after that it got a lot better. I was going for the long game, though, and working my bard to 11 and using her bard song to keep us healed instead of relying on a divine caster.
I'm not sure who I would necessarily swap out for a cleric though. I would not swap out the bard though--good for RP, and the songs are insanely useful. The paladin and barbarian kept me alive in the early stages, and you're going to need at least one thief (I prefer the f/t instead of other multis because I get a legit backstab without immediately having to flee afterwards). I suppose you could go f/c (or even r/c) instead of f/d. Turn Undead is a loss, sure, but personally I'm not giving up the druid's spell selection for the cleric's.
IWD has tough battles, yo'll need at least 2 mages, one of them a multiclass, maybe; 2 clerics or 3, 2 of them multiclass; 2 pure fighters, and at least 1 main ranged one; stick to one thief, you choose if multi or pure.
[/spoiler] While all this advice here is very much appreciated, it also seems a bit overwhelming.
It's going to be very difficult (if not impossible) to cram all these recommendations into a single six-person party.
IWD has tough battles, yo'll need at least 2 mages, one of them a multiclass, maybe; 2 clerics or 3, 2 of them multiclass; 2 pure fighters, and at least 1 main ranged one; stick to one thief, you choose if multi or pure.
[/spoiler] While all this advice here is very much appreciated, it also seems a bit overwhelming.
It's going to be very difficult (if not impossible) to cram all these recommendations into a single six-person party.
And just to give you some perspective, my last IWDEE testing run was a human Inquisitor, half-orc fighter-thief, dwarven barbarian, half-elf fighter-druid, human bard, and a human fighter>mage (dualled at level two just so I could get access to multiple pips and bows). I tend to follow the Minsc philosophy of swords for everyone.
The two multis, dual, and bard made the beginning of the game a bit of a challenge since they're so slow-developing. Once I started hitting level 5-6ish it got a lot better and the game was a lot smoother.
I'm actually mulling over a party that's a bit similar to yours, with an inquisitor, barbarian, and half-orc F/T (mainly because I have unused custom portraits that are ideal for these IMO).
However, it would seem that your party is sorely lacking in priestly abilities (no cleric at all, and only one multi druid). Do you think it would have been more advisable to have a cleric (perhaps dualed from fighter), mage, and cleric/mage multi in place of the latter three characters?
It was definitely low on clerical ability--I think Dragon's Eye took me a week in game time from all the resting--but after that it got a lot better. I was going for the long game, though, and working my bard to 11 and using her bard song to keep us healed instead of relying on a divine caster.
I'm not sure who I would necessarily swap out for a cleric though. I would not swap out the bard though--good for RP, and the songs are insanely useful. The paladin and barbarian kept me alive in the early stages, and you're going to need at least one thief (I prefer the f/t instead of other multis because I get a legit backstab without immediately having to flee afterwards). I suppose you could go f/c (or even r/c) instead of f/d. Turn Undead is a loss, sure, but personally I'm not giving up the druid's spell selection for the cleric's.
I'm probably getting ahead of myself (but then again, I usually do) by planning a party already, but what are your (and others here) thoughts on this party arrangement:
1. Paladin (possibly Inquisitor) 2. Human barbarian 3. Half-orc fighter/thief 4. Druid (probably kitted, but undecided as to which) 5. Bard (probably vanilla based on everyone's recommendations, but I'm also considering a skald for RP reasons) 6. Gnomish cleric/illusionist
I'm basing my choices on a combination of efficiency (based on recommendations in this thread), RPing, and some available portraits that I'm eager to use - and it's been quite a tightrope to balance all three of these interests.
What are the six best mage kits (excluding wild mage) in IWD? I want to do an all mage party.
Well it depends if we are talking about IWDEE, HoW or the original (the original non-HoW icewind dale has a different opposite school table than IWDEE and HoW which share the same one)
Name of School/Opposition school(s)
Abjuration= Alteration and Illusion Conjurer= Invocation Diviner= Conjuration Enchanter= Invocation Illusionist= Necromancy and Abjuration Invoker= Enchantment and Conjuration Necromancer= Illusion and Enchantment Transmuter= Necromancy and Abjuration
Honestly its a tough call. On the surface in IWDEE I'd probably go with a
What exactly makes Transmuter better than Illusionist, or Enchanter worse than Conjurer when they miss the exact same stuff? I'd imagine an argument for the reverse can be made, what with +2 saves vs Enchantment being far more life saving than conjuration.
What exactly makes Transmuter better than Illusionist, or Enchanter worse than Conjurer when they miss the exact same stuff? I'd imagine an argument for the reverse can be made, what with +2 saves vs Enchantment being far more life saving than conjuration.
I wasn't numbering the top 6 just listing them alphabetically.
As for the illusionist vs transmuter, the transmuter gets +2 saves vs Colour Spray, Slow, and Disintegrate (along with other alteration spells). There just happens to be more offensive alteration spells that you may/may not encounter. If Elrandir plans on having a gnome illusionist then its the better pick, but otherwise I'd say go with the transmuter.
What exactly makes Transmuter better than Illusionist, or Enchanter worse than Conjurer when they miss the exact same stuff? I'd imagine an argument for the reverse can be made, what with +2 saves vs Enchantment being far more life saving than conjuration.
I wasn't numbering the top 6 just listing them alphabetically.
As for the illusionist vs transmuter, the transmuter gets +2 saves vs Colour Spray, Slow, and Disintegrate (along with other alteration spells). There just happens to be more offensive alteration spells that you may/may not encounter. If Elrandir plans on having a gnome illusionist then its the better pick, but otherwise I'd say go with the transmuter.
Ah, now I get it.
Point taken.
Even still, this Opp School change really took away a lot of the feel of uniqueness from each school.
IWD has tough battles, yo'll need at least 2 mages, one of them a multiclass, maybe; 2 clerics or 3, 2 of them multiclass; 2 pure fighters, and at least 1 main ranged one; stick to one thief, you choose if multi or pure.
While all this advice here is very much appreciated, it also seems a bit overwhelming.
It's going to be very difficult (if not impossible) to cram all these recommendations into a single six-person party.
You can ignore the 2 mages thing, as that's for weenies. Besides, with the right spells memorized, a Druid is basically a new variety of Mage. Both classes excel at crowd control and area damage.
Drake Morrigan, Lawful Evil, human Blackguard Omin Bromm, Chaotic Neutral, human Fighter Quinn Lirrit, Lawful Neutral, human Bard Alabaster the Ivory, Chaotic Neutral, gnome Illusionist Serrick, Chaotic Neutral, halfling Assassin Sandro, True Neutral, human Druid
Quoted my own party list for reference. @Gate70 brought up an interesting possibility for filling Clerical holes in a roster by making a gnome Illusionist into a Cleric/Illusionist for @jackjack's proposed party. Anybody think this would be wise to make Alabaster dabble in being a cleric of Baravar Cloakshadow for my group? I like to rest as seldom as possible, so a Cleric multi-class' extra healing ability would definitely be helpful in that regard.
Drake Morrigan, Lawful Evil, human Blackguard Omin Bromm, Chaotic Neutral, human Fighter Quinn Lirrit, Lawful Neutral, human Bard Alabaster the Ivory, Chaotic Neutral, gnome Illusionist Serrick, Chaotic Neutral, halfling Assassin Sandro, True Neutral, human Druid
Quoted my own party list for reference. @Gate70 brought up an interesting possibility for filling Clerical holes in a roster by making a gnome Illusionist into a Cleric/Illusionist for @jackjack's proposed party. Anybody think this would be wise to make Alabaster dabble in being a cleric of Baravar Cloakshadow for my group? I like to rest as seldom as possible, so a Cleric multi-class' extra healing ability would definitely be helpful in that regard.
I like cleric/illusionists, but I reckon that if Blackguards get HoW Paladin spell progression, you will probably be okay with the Blackguard. They get turn undead. The weakest link in your party is the single class assassin, but I'm sure you would have enough power to complete the game with this party.
Turn Undead on an evil character will eventually cause time waste. Maybe it's just me, but exploding undead (Good, Neutral) are better than controlled Undead (Evil.)
Finally, I managed to write down my first party for IWD:EE \o/
- Imrahil Sielfir (Male/Human/Undead Hunter/Lawful Good) - Faenerys Skydawn (Female/Elf/Cleric of Lathander/Neutral Good) - Syff Underhill (Female/Halfling/Fighter/Chaotic Good) - Kenneth Underhill (Male/Halfling/Thief (Kit?)/Chaotic Good) - Fal'astra Springleaf (Female/Elf/Totemic Druid/Neutral Good) (Will have to tweak her alignment) - Karla Sielfir (Female/Human/Sorcerer/Neutral Good)
I'm a little sad I couldn't put a Dwarf or a Gnome in there for the following reasons:
1) If I take a Dwarf as a Fighter, the Gauntlets that give 18/51 for a Fighter will not find an owner (except if the Dwarf has STR < 18/51 2) If I take a Dwarf as a Cleric, his 19 CON will not help him much in comparison with 19 DEX + He cannot use the "Elf" Shield you can loot on Ilmadia. 3) Gnomes cannot be Sorcerers
I had to remove the Bard in this Single Classes Party in order to have both a Cleric and a Druid.
@Schneidend if your intention is to rest as little as possible the bard Sith Warchant is key. A druid can be used mainly for level 1-5 healing until the bard reaches the required level then switch to more interesting spells at that stage. So no need for a cleric in that regard.
I try to vary my gameplay but recent runs have seen the general approach below. I'm a late convert to IWD cleric buffs and found it makes a significant difference so always find room for a bit of cleric. I thought I was the only person who needed 8 or 9 slots for party members
Before combat. - Cleric adds Protection from Evil 10'. - Bard adds Emotion:Courage and Emotion: Hope. - Add haste / Improved Invisibility or Mass Invisibility for tougher fights.
During combat - Dwarven Defender rushes in and activates Defensive Stance. - Cleric layers in Prayer, Recitation and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. - Bard sings Sith Warchant unless other songs are required (e.g. mind protection song).
Going from Illusionist to Cleric/Illusionist will see slower progression, so worse saving throws and longer to get the high level spells. That doesn't bother me because I prefer the gain in flexibility and larger amount of spells. I find the C/I contribute throughout most battles without running dry, whereas runs with a sorcerer or Wild Mage for example I had them stand idle part way through longer battles but that might just be poor utilisation of them on my part.
I like cleric/illusionists, but I reckon that if Blackguards get HoW Paladin spell progression, you will probably be okay with the Blackguard. They get turn undead. The weakest link in your party is the single class assassin, but I'm sure you would have enough power to complete the game with this party.
With the Sneak Attack option, I'd hardly consider an Assassin a weak link. You might be right, though, I did forget that Blackguards get spells, and HoW does improve Paladin spell progression which might apply to Blackguards.
Turn Undead on an evil character will eventually cause time waste. Maybe it's just me, but exploding undead (Good, Neutral) are better than controlled Undead (Evil.)
You can make the undead you control attack and kill each other to speed things up, or if they're not too slow, use them as a pet for the entire map. Besides, having a bunch of undead join your party against another bunch of undead who you can't control is a bit more cathartic to me. Of course, a room full of skeletons suddenly exploding is great, but the Cleric/Illusionist would be too far behind in his levels to achieve that very often, I imagine. If controlling the undead wastes time, then fearing them into fleeing wastes a hell of a lot more.
@Gate70 Also good points on raw power/advancement versus utility for the C/I. I do like to get new spells/slots more quickly, and as mentioned earlier I'll have my Blackguard's handful of spells to supplement things. I think, based on you and Fardragon's input, I'll stick with single-class Illusionist. Alabaster the Ivory never had Cleric levels when my friend played him, so that's more true to the character, anyway.
@Kerthal I'd probably go Bounty Hunter or Assassin if you want to use the Sneak Attack option, or Shadow Dancer if you want to use Backstab.
Turn Undead on an evil character will eventually cause time waste. Maybe it's just me, but exploding undead (Good, Neutral) are better than controlled Undead (Evil.)
Fleeing undead (good, neutral) wastes more time than controlled undead though.
With the Sneak Attack option, I'd hardly consider an Assassin a weak link.
In IWD, it's usually more important to be able to damage lots of targets, than to be able to do very high damage to just one (then die). Add to that, IWD is crawling with sneak attack immune undead.
Be sure that almost all of them are proficient with a ranged weapon;
Would you say that it may not be advisable to have a cavalier, then?
Cavaliers are overrated. I'd rather go with an Inquisitor/Undead Hunter or even a Blackguard before a going with a Cavalier.
I disagree, given the nature of the enemies in IWD (trying to avoid spoilers) an Inquisitor is about the least useful Paladin kit: they loose Turn Undead, and they loose spellcasting, which is much enhanced in IWDEE. Undead Hunter is good, but there is no level drain in IWD, so they aren't quite as good as you might expect.
Cavalier may find their special bonuses very useful, and they can use throwing axes.
Cavaliers are good for the dragons and demons. If we exclude ToTL for the moment, there's 3 I can think of, though to be fair, they're all powerful bosses.
@SharGuidesMyHand I would drop Inquisitor for another kit. Very few wizards in the game and far more undead and demons/dragon. The other choices are more useful.
The inquisitors powers will simply not be that useful.
Very few wizards in the game and far more demons/dragon.
Really? I'm gonna try to count the number of casters: there's the orc shamans, the Bone Dancer you can chat with, those robed guys in the temple of the forgotten god, Lizard Shamans, Talonites, Yuan-Ti Priests AND mages, the fake Eldathans, Yuxonomei... we've reached our first demon by the by, and even I'm not sure if she's an actual demon, or just an evil unnatural extraplanar creature.
Personally, I'd stay unkitted in IWD, all things considered, or go UH.
Comments
Technically, there are no "mage kits" other than Wild Mage. There are "specialist schools".
However, it would seem that your party is sorely lacking in priestly abilities (no cleric at all, and only one multi druid). Do you think it would have been more advisable to have a cleric (perhaps dualed from fighter), mage, and cleric/mage multi in place of the latter three characters?
It's going to be very difficult (if not impossible) to cram all these recommendations into a single six-person party.
The most challenging and amusing option would be 6 wild mages.
Bard
Fighter/Druid
Paladin
Cleric/Ranger
Thief/Illusionist
Sorcerer
I'm not sure who I would necessarily swap out for a cleric though. I would not swap out the bard though--good for RP, and the songs are insanely useful. The paladin and barbarian kept me alive in the early stages, and you're going to need at least one thief (I prefer the f/t instead of other multis because I get a legit backstab without immediately having to flee afterwards). I suppose you could go f/c (or even r/c) instead of f/d. Turn Undead is a loss, sure, but personally I'm not giving up the druid's spell selection for the cleric's.
1. Paladin (possibly Inquisitor)
2. Human barbarian
3. Half-orc fighter/thief
4. Druid (probably kitted, but undecided as to which)
5. Bard (probably vanilla based on everyone's recommendations, but I'm also considering a skald for RP reasons)
6. Gnomish cleric/illusionist
I'm basing my choices on a combination of efficiency (based on recommendations in this thread), RPing, and some available portraits that I'm eager to use - and it's been quite a tightrope to balance all three of these interests.
Name of School/Opposition school(s)
Abjuration= Alteration and Illusion
Conjurer= Invocation
Diviner= Conjuration
Enchanter= Invocation
Illusionist= Necromancy and Abjuration
Invoker= Enchantment and Conjuration
Necromancer= Illusion and Enchantment
Transmuter= Necromancy and Abjuration
Honestly its a tough call. On the surface in IWDEE I'd probably go with a
Conjurer
Diviner
Enchanter
Invoker
Necromancer
Transmuter
As for the illusionist vs transmuter, the transmuter gets +2 saves vs Colour Spray, Slow, and Disintegrate (along with other alteration spells). There just happens to be more offensive alteration spells that you may/may not encounter. If Elrandir plans on having a gnome illusionist then its the better pick, but otherwise I'd say go with the transmuter.
Point taken.
Even still, this Opp School change really took away a lot of the feel of uniqueness from each school.
- Imrahil Sielfir (Male/Human/Undead Hunter/Lawful Good)
- Faenerys Skydawn (Female/Elf/Cleric of Lathander/Neutral Good)
- Syff Underhill (Female/Halfling/Fighter/Chaotic Good)
- Kenneth Underhill (Male/Halfling/Thief (Kit?)/Chaotic Good)
- Fal'astra Springleaf (Female/Elf/Totemic Druid/Neutral Good) (Will have to tweak her alignment)
- Karla Sielfir (Female/Human/Sorcerer/Neutral Good)
I'm a little sad I couldn't put a Dwarf or a Gnome in there for the following reasons:
1) If I take a Dwarf as a Fighter, the Gauntlets that give 18/51 for a Fighter will not find an owner (except if the Dwarf has STR < 18/51
2) If I take a Dwarf as a Cleric, his 19 CON will not help him much in comparison with 19 DEX + He cannot use the "Elf" Shield you can loot on Ilmadia.
3) Gnomes cannot be Sorcerers
I had to remove the Bard in this Single Classes Party in order to have both a Cleric and a Druid.
Any comment/suggestion regarding the Thief's Kit?
I try to vary my gameplay but recent runs have seen the general approach below. I'm a late convert to IWD cleric buffs and found it makes a significant difference so always find room for a bit of cleric. I thought I was the only person who needed 8 or 9 slots for party members
Before combat.
- Cleric adds Protection from Evil 10'.
- Bard adds Emotion:Courage and Emotion: Hope.
- Add haste / Improved Invisibility or Mass Invisibility for tougher fights.
During combat
- Dwarven Defender rushes in and activates Defensive Stance.
- Cleric layers in Prayer, Recitation and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful.
- Bard sings Sith Warchant unless other songs are required (e.g. mind protection song).
Going from Illusionist to Cleric/Illusionist will see slower progression, so worse saving throws and longer to get the high level spells. That doesn't bother me because I prefer the gain in flexibility and larger amount of spells. I find the C/I contribute throughout most battles without running dry, whereas runs with a sorcerer or Wild Mage for example I had them stand idle part way through longer battles but that might just be poor utilisation of them on my part.
http://www.gamebanshee.com/icewinddale/spells.php is a handy reminder of spells, don't assume they all work the same as BGII if you've not played IWD before.
@Gate70
Also good points on raw power/advancement versus utility for the C/I. I do like to get new spells/slots more quickly, and as mentioned earlier I'll have my Blackguard's handful of spells to supplement things. I think, based on you and Fardragon's input, I'll stick with single-class Illusionist. Alabaster the Ivory never had Cleric levels when my friend played him, so that's more true to the character, anyway.
@Kerthal
I'd probably go Bounty Hunter or Assassin if you want to use the Sneak Attack option, or Shadow Dancer if you want to use Backstab.
Cavalier may find their special bonuses very useful, and they can use throwing axes.
The inquisitors powers will simply not be that useful.
Personally, I'd stay unkitted in IWD, all things considered, or go UH.