For me (and I'm sure there are many other gamers like me out there) the ability to create my own party is my absolute favorite aspect of these games. I think sometimes I've spent more time in party creation then i have playing the game itself! I know in icewind dale 2 i probably created over 100 parties, yet only a few of them ever saw the end boss : )
For me (and I'm sure there are many other gamers like me out there) the ability to create my own party is my absolute favorite aspect of these games. I think sometimes I've spent more time in party creation then i have playing the game itself! I know in icewind dale 2 i probably created over 100 parties, yet only a few of them ever saw the end boss : )
There is an end boss? There is a GAME after the character creation screen?!
For me (and I'm sure there are many other gamers like me out there) the ability to create my own party is my absolute favorite aspect of these games. I think sometimes I've spent more time in party creation then i have playing the game itself! I know in icewind dale 2 i probably created over 100 parties, yet only a few of them ever saw the end boss : )
There is an end boss? There is a GAME after the character creation screen?!
There is indeed! There's an entire town and everything! I swear, once I even got as far as Kuldahar. But that's also in the first game so I think I hit some kind of time warp and broke the game. So it seems we're not supposed to leave the party creation screen maybe, I dunno.
It's also built to be a tactical RPG where you build a squad that doesn't talk much, like XCOM.
I don't expect NPCs in IWD and fully agree that it isn't what the game is about. However, nor do I subscribe to the above.
Whenever I play, my party might be silent from a mechanics perspective but I happily provide voice in my imagination. My party is more than a group of 'squad members' from Xcom. They have just as much personality as the ones in BG, possibly more so because I am not constrained by someone else's vision of who/what they are.
It is my strong hope that EE will add other value to the game such as additional areas and quests and items and classes/races.
I liked Icewind Dale a lot for its parallels to Baldur's Gate. Its basically (as opposed to say an RPG like Pokemon) the exact same kind of game, which is my favorite style of game. However the thing that significantly blew it down my list of favorite games was the lack of (Party Joinable) PJNPCs.
Part of what made BG and that style of RPG my favorite was the essence of entering the protagonists life and becoming engulfed in the story and world, and I just don't feel that with Icewind Dale. Its just a fact of life that people end up socializing with other people, and romances just happen. Even in the frozen north, as evident by the fact that the races haven’t all gone extinct yet. Its almost unavoidable if you actually live as opposed to hiding in a cave alone.
So, I would extremely like to see PJNPCs in Icewind Dale. However, like that twitter post implied, that sort of story was never an intended feature of the Icewind Dale series. That being the case significantly lowers the value of the series in my opinion (still my favorite style of RPG though), but its just how it is. Additionally many of the fans of the Icewind Dale series seem to actually prefer that (I don't know why, but that's what they say), and to change that aspect of the game might bother them. So I understand why Beamdog might not do it.
However, if the game combined these features allowing players to make their entire party still and ignore PJNPCs they can't really complain because then the new features do not have to effect them at all. You could always do this in the BG games too, by making a private TCP/IP session. Doing so would probably increase the fan base; thus increase profits; as there are just as many people which hate the Icewind Dale series entirely (but love the BG series) because of the lack of this feature, finding the game too boring.
This is especially true since they made it so BG characters can't be transferred to IWD, preventing fans from transferring over their favorite BG PJNPCs. I am not one of those people that hate it (I do find it much more boring than BG series, but its still fun enough that I want to play it), I'm neutral towards IWD. But I see BG fans who love and hate the game around just as often.
So if there's no legal reason preventing them from adding PJNPCs, new and/or original IWD NPCs, I think that Beamdog is either just being lazy or we need to give them more money. They could always work on it after releasing IWD:EE and release a DLC pack to add the option of PJNPCs to the game, for an extra cost if need be. I know there are already mods to add PJNPCs to IWD (which will probably work on IWD:EE since the BG mods worked on BG:EE) but its not the same!
I disagree with Elminster’s sentiment that if a PJNPC doesn’t start in a big town its in a crap start location. I loved discovering new PJNPCs throughout the Baldur’s Gate world, it was one of my favorite things in fact. Also, he spoke of the difficulty of adding dozens of new characters to the game but didn’t consider the fact that there are already dozens of NPCs in the game which could be made to be PJNPCs, making it so Beamdog wouldn’t have to create as many entirely new NPCs and dialogue content to go with them. For Example: Hrothgar, Everard, Erevain, Anyone Else that goes on the expedition to Kuldahar…
They could kill off half or 2/3 of the PJNPCs you are able to get at the start of Ch1 giving you a couple based on main character make up and the dialogue and quest choices you made in Easthaven adding that extra strategic puzzle. Of course giving you the option to part ways after the avalanche too, like BG the ability to kick party members at any time should be included. They could have the PJNPCs AND PCs that are booted meet up at an Inn in Kuldahar, like they had places for PJNPCs to meet in BG.
Having them meet up somewhere makes it so you can easily switch party members for different situations, and that way I could use them as mules heheh. Well then again they could just add a house or storage chest to accomplish that.
I remember the first time I played IWD. It’s D&D and FR and IE and all that so I thought it was basically the next game in the Baldur's Gate series (by the same developer) just a different story, but I expected it to be the same game basically. I only made my main character, so I could have room to get PJNPCs and I kept expecting them to be around the next corner. When I couldn’t find any around Easthaven I was convinced that when I joined the expedition to Kuldahar I'd get my first party member, like Hrothgar and those others I mentioned.
But even after that let down I was still expecting to find PJNPCs, until about half way through the game I think. I remember there being tons of NPCs I thought would/could be PJNPCs but turned out not to be. I was pretty perturbed about it not having PJNPCs on my first play through because I never heard about it not having them, and soloing wasn’t really fun during that play through because that’s not what I wanted to do at the time. Anyway it would be amazing to me, and lots of other players if they not only added new PJNPCs but made old NPCs into PJNPCs.
It's also built to be a tactical RPG where you build a squad that doesn't talk much, like XCOM.
I don't expect NPCs in IWD and fully agree that it isn't what the game is about. However, nor do I subscribe to the above.
Whenever I play, my party might be silent from a mechanics perspective but I happily provide voice in my imagination. My party is more than a group of 'squad members' from Xcom. They have just as much personality as the ones in BG, possibly more so because I am not constrained by someone else's vision of who/what they are.
It is my strong hope that EE will add other value to the game such as additional areas and quests and items and classes/races.
I never said I didn't imbue personalities into my tactical RPG team members. I do, and did so in XCOM.
There's only a slight problem with that list. Most of those people die in the story. Hrothgar and the other Easthaven expedition die in that avalanche on their way to Kuldahar, and their gravestones in IWD2 reflect that. Erevain dies in Dragon's Eye trying to save the people, he's also related to Xan, so he's doomed by proxy. Everard is like the High Priest in temple of Tempus in Easthaven, I doubt he's going to leave, and then there's the fact that he sacrifices himself in the end.
Changing the game's story just so then you can have joinable NPCs is a bad idea at best and causes a chain of plot holes in existing content. You not only change IWD, but you change IWD2, as well as change the Xan mod because for Xan, Erevain died in Dragon's Eye, and had a gravestone placed in Kuldahar, and he goes to see it. It was the same reason as to why a Clara NPC shouldn't exist. Clara stays alive, and you change the story quite a bit.
I'm not sure why you would have even expected NPCs. That's not what the IWD franchise is about.
Hmm.. the IWD NPCs mod was an excellent mod full of Banter that made the play through a ton of fun. After 50k runs of various parties over the years, it made the game "fresh" again. Updating the engine is all good and I will buy either way, but NPCs are without a doubt AWESOME. I will never forget Minsc or Tiax or Edwin for the rest of my life. They provided some of the best, funniest and most memorable gaming memories in my 25+ years of gaming. Yes, IWD was created as a hack n slash, but there is story between the fights in the original game. NPCs add "flavor". You just have to make sure you "fatten" up, stat-wise, the NPCs up to be able to handle combat in its hack n slash environment. Hopefully Kuylok will update IWD NPCs for IWDEE....or expand it if we are really lucky.
Hmm.. the IWD NPCs mod was an excellent mod full of Banter that made the play through a ton of fun. After 50k runs of various parties over the years, it made the game "fresh" again. Updating the engine is all good and I will buy either way, but NPCs are without a doubt AWESOME. I will never forget Minsc or Tiax or Edwin for the rest of my life. They provided some of the best, funniest and most memorable gaming memories in my 25+ years of gaming. Yes, IWD was created as a hack n slash, but there is story between the fights in the original game. NPCs add "flavor". You just have to make sure you "fatten" up, stat-wise, the NPCs up to be able to handle combat in its hack n slash environment. Hopefully Kuylok will update IWD NPCs for IWDEE....or expand it if we are really lucky.
My point was that IWD, from its inception, wasn't built around putting together a party of NPCs recruited by a main character as in Baldur's Gate, so expecting that to suddenly change strikes me as odd. Whether IWD NPCs is a great mod isn't really pertinent to what I was talking about. It might be the greatest mod in the history of mods, for all I know, but that doesn't mean Overhaul wants to put it in IWDEE.
I fully expect new NPCs will be created by the community in the months following IWDEE release. Maybe even Beamdofg may release some as DLCs.
But all the polls in this forum pointed that if an EE version of IWD was ever released it should not add NPCs. I would be surprised if the Devs didn't listen to the prevalent opinion in those polls.
Something that would be an interesting take on this would be to add "personalities" to your created characters. Just like selecting a soundset, you would be able to select a personality with a whole lot of banters connected to it.
That way you still create your own characters from scratch, but get party banters, reactions along the way etc, and still avoid adding NPC's.
Would require some code changes to the engine though, and a lot of work going into writing banters, making matching soundsets etc.
I'd happily pay for NPC / Wilderness DLC, but I won't be buying the game if there is no suggestion of creating them. I'm sure there will be some really nice mods in a year or so though so that could change my mind. I just feel it would be a shame for BD to leave it to the modders to increase the appeal of the game.
@The_New_Romance Well, it should be as much work as actually creating an NPC.. plus the coding part.
Though the amount of work to create ~20 or so personalities would probably be a bit too much for Beamdog at this point.
Can't say I understand all the people saying they will refuse to buy IWD:EE unless NPC's are added though.. the game was never meant to have them in there.
Can't say I understand all the people saying they will refuse to buy IWD:EE unless NPC's are added though.. the game was never meant to have them in there.
Which is all fine and dandy if you liked IWD in the first place, but I can understand and share part of the sentiment of players that never got into IWD because it felt so empty in comparison to BG/BG2. They didn't really like IWD because of that and the addition of NPCs might make the game a different experience for them.
I personally feel the same way. However, I know that the game itself is not about that, so I don't think it's reasonable to suddenly add NPCs to a game where the players don't expect any, so I don't think it would be a wise choice to suddenly add them in.
Don't add them and you'll displease crowd A, add them and you'll displease crowd B. Not adding them is then the much cheaper and thus financially better option, and keeps the possibility open to create an NPC DLC pack along the road.
I personally hope for lots of interesting NPC mods to appear, though.
Can't say I understand all the people saying they will refuse to buy IWD:EE unless NPC's are added though..
It is a curious phenomenon indeed. I'd understand if it was an enhancement they'd promised but then changed their mind about, but that's not the case.
Well, part of the enhancement of BG was the addition of new NPCs and areas. It is reasonable that there has been an expectation of similar enhancement being applied to IWD.
I wish I'd seen the polls about adding NPCs - I definitely would have voted in favour of it. I can only echo what has been said already, that the companions in BG are a big part of what makes the experience so rich and rewarding.
The argument that IWD is not about NPC companions irks me more every time I see it. In my opinion that's what it should be about - strangers heeding a call for help, thrown together by tragic circumstance, their relationships forged in the furnace of adversity.
Can't say I understand all the people saying they will refuse to buy IWD:EE unless NPC's are added though.. the game was never meant to have them in there.
Which is all fine and dandy if you liked IWD in the first place, but I can understand and share part of the sentiment of players that never got into IWD because it felt so empty in comparison to BG/BG2. They didn't really like IWD because of that and the addition of NPCs might make the game a different experience for them.
I'm exaggerating, but isn't that a bit like people not getting into The Sims and finding it empty because they can't do third-person tactical alien combat à la XCOM with their sims? Of course you could have that feature in The Sims 4, the engine would probably even support it, but that's not the point of The Sims.
I have nothing against more interjections and race-/class-specific quests, but IWD just isn't about NPCs. With them, a hypothetical EE would be a different experience, but it wouldn't really be an EE. EE in my opinion means taking the fundament that is there and improving on it.
Well, part of the enhancement of BG was the addition of new NPCs and areas. It is reasonable that there has been an expectation of similar enhancement being applied to IWD.
BG:EE featured new NPCs and dialogue, because the old version had it as well. They enhanced an already existing thing (well, maybe they just plopped BG2-style interaction into a game that didn't have it before, but I digress). Drawing a parallel to IWD, enhancing what is there and focussing on making the strengths of the game even stronger would probably mean something like new combat maneuvers, additional spells and skills, more weapons and more enemies.
To sum it up, an EE in my opinion shouldn't be some sort of dance remix to make a formerly niche rock song into something everyone can dance to, but it should rather cater to the existing fans of that rock song... maybe call it a "digital remastering". That's what I think the point of doing an Enhanced Edition is. Polishing the old game, not chopping it up and building a new one from its parts. If you want to change a lot, don't call it enhanced. Call it Director's Cut, spiritual successor, re-imagining or IWD RMX.
Can't say I understand all the people saying they will refuse to buy IWD:EE unless NPC's are added though.. the game was never meant to have them in there.
Which is all fine and dandy if you liked IWD in the first place, but I can understand and share part of the sentiment of players that never got into IWD because it felt so empty in comparison to BG/BG2. They didn't really like IWD because of that and the addition of NPCs might make the game a different experience for them.
I'm exaggerating, but isn't that a bit like people not getting into The Sims and finding it empty because they can't do third-person tactical alien combat à la XCOM with their sims? Of course you could have that feature in The Sims 4, the engine would probably even support it, but that's not the point of The Sims.
I have nothing against more interjections and race-/class-specific quests, but IWD just isn't about NPCs. With them, a hypothetical EE would be a different experience, but it wouldn't really be an EE. EE in my opinion means taking the fundament that is there and improving on it.
If that The Sims+Xcom game would mean I could send my sims on missions to kill aliens, gather meld, and what not, but I would also still have to make sure they cook, eat, pee, sleep and what not between missions, then no, it wouldn't interest me, because The Sims is not "generally interesting but lacking something to make it good" to me, but something I have no desire to play whatsoever.
IWD generally seems like an interesting game, but the lack of party interaction causes me to keep it on the shelf in favor of other games. It's just that thing that's missing to me, while the combination of hunting aliens and making sure my troops are cooking their own meals is not an interesting combination.
But I agree that the inclusion of NPCs into the game would change the game from what it is originally, and while it would be more appealing to me and some others, it would make the game less appealing to yet other people that would get these additional NPCs shoved in their faces, so I don't think it should be included in the base game.
Second reason it shouldn't be included in the base game, is because to make it interesting, they have to include 10+ NPCs, to prevent you from being stuck with NPCs you don't like, which is quite a bit of work.
Can't say I understand all the people saying they will refuse to buy IWD:EE unless NPC's are added though.. the game was never meant to have them in there.
Which is all fine and dandy if you liked IWD in the first place, but I can understand and share part of the sentiment of players that never got into IWD because it felt so empty in comparison to BG/BG2. They didn't really like IWD because of that and the addition of NPCs might make the game a different experience for them.
I'm exaggerating, but isn't that a bit like people not getting into The Sims and finding it empty because they can't do third-person tactical alien combat à la XCOM with their sims? Of course you could have that feature in The Sims 4, the engine would probably even support it, but that's not the point of The Sims.
I have nothing against more interjections and race-/class-specific quests, but IWD just isn't about NPCs. With them, a hypothetical EE would be a different experience, but it wouldn't really be an EE. EE in my opinion means taking the fundament that is there and improving on it.
Well, part of the enhancement of BG was the addition of new NPCs and areas. It is reasonable that there has been an expectation of similar enhancement being applied to IWD.
BG:EE featured new NPCs and dialogue, because the old version had it as well. They enhanced an already existing thing (well, maybe they just plopped BG2-style interaction into a game that didn't have it before, but I digress). Drawing a parallel to IWD, enhancing what is there and focussing on making the strengths of the game even stronger would probably mean something like new combat maneuvers, additional spells and skills, more weapons and more enemies.
To sum it up, an EE in my opinion shouldn't be some sort of dance remix to make a formerly niche rock song into something everyone can dance to, but it should rather cater to the existing fans of that rock song... maybe call it a "digital remastering". That's what I think the point of doing an Enhanced Edition is. Polishing the old game, not chopping it up and building a new one from its parts. If you want to change a lot, don't call it enhanced. Call it Director's Cut, spiritual successor, re-imagining or IWD RMX.
GOG.com is catering to the existing fans. The whole point of these projects is to make the games accessible to a new, broader, audience - and times have changed.
Why not include the dance remix with the re-mastered version? That it's included in the download doesn't mean you ever have to listen to it, if you choose not to, but it allows those who do want to dance the opportunity to do so.
They've added 6 pre-generated characters to the character creation screen (if IWD is really all about making your own party then they've already taken a step away from that), no one is suggesting that you *have* to use *all* or *any* of them. That is where to add companion NPCs to the game and if you want them, use them - if you don't, then don't. It changes nothing about the game if you choose not to use them.
Further still, generally those of us who do want companions are willing to pay extra for them as DLC (we realise that 10-12 companions, even 'just' BG style companions, will take time and effort - that's not a reason not to make it happen!). That way those who don't want it don't even have to see it in their games.
IWD already had 30+ pre-generated characters. You just had to use the import system. So six new ones aren't really "new" it was already there. So, if anything they're keeping it to IWD.
IWD already had 30+ pre-generated characters. You just had to use the import system. So six new ones aren't really "new" it was already there. So, if anything they're keeping it to IWD.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but the way it's written suggests to me that they've built a party for you - character creation is not going to be 6 empty slots.
The suggestion that we're trying to put across is that these 6 new pre-gens could be fleshed out to function as 'real' companions (with the addition of 4-6 more). Replacing them with what you make for yourself would change nothing about the game for you, but it would allow those who want sensible, balanced, interesting party interaction (which is often, in my experience, lacking in NPC mods), to have variety and a greatly enriched experience.
It will still be 'your' IWD, it'll just give 'us' the opportunity to make it 'ours' too. I'm sure we're all in it together and want to support Beamdog/Overhaul for the hope of things that might come in the future. It is possible for *more* of us to be happy, if not *all* of us.
It's much more likely a set of characters with classes that properly round out a party, so players that are rather clueless about the game can pick up that party, rather than having to wonder which classes to use.
Hmm.. the IWD NPCs mod was an excellent mod full of Banter that made the play through a ton of fun. After 50k runs of various parties over the years, it made the game "fresh" again. Updating the engine is all good and I will buy either way, but NPCs are without a doubt AWESOME. I will never forget Minsc or Tiax or Edwin for the rest of my life. They provided some of the best, funniest and most memorable gaming memories in my 25+ years of gaming. Yes, IWD was created as a hack n slash, but there is story between the fights in the original game. NPCs add "flavor". You just have to make sure you "fatten" up, stat-wise, the NPCs up to be able to handle combat in its hack n slash environment. Hopefully Kuylok will update IWD NPCs for IWDEE....or expand it if we are really lucky.
My point was that IWD, from its inception, wasn't built around putting together a party of NPCs recruited by a main character as in Baldur's Gate, so expecting that to suddenly change strikes me as odd. Whether IWD NPCs is a great mod isn't really pertinent to what I was talking about. It might be the greatest mod in the history of mods, for all I know, but that doesn't mean Overhaul wants to put it in IWDEE.
I wasn't refuting anything you stated. I was just musing, that is why I started with "Hmm...". I get that playable NPCs won't be part of the first production. Just wishful thinking on my end.
IMO, a hack n slash like IWD is much harder to overhaul than a BG or BG2. Adding NPCs and fixing bugs/expanding interface were the big changes in the BGEEs. I expect similar type interface/bug fixes in IWDEE, but NPCs could expand it in other ways that didn't exist while keeping the hack n slash feel.
IMO, NPCs kind of go against the spirit of what IWD is. Which that is a create your own party ARPG.
I believe the “that’s not IWD” reason to be a bit of unreasonable. It was a choice in the past, however we’re enhancing an edition here. I expected them because in my opinion joinable NPCs enrich any game they participate.
Besides, that would only sum to the game and would at least raise the replayability of IWD:EE, make your entire party if you want, or… add one (or more) NPCs to it.
Just to end, quoting part of Trent Osten twitter: “We discuss adding NPC chars to IWD:EE (…)” which meant the idea isn’t so absurd after all, the own devs have even reached the point of discuss it.
IWD is all about hack n slash, silent party members who do their task. We do not want some whiny, self centered NPC or romances. No time for romances when you have Kuldahar to save.
Not for me, at least not always. I don’t expect romances as I don’t see the existence of a main char in IWD, but interaction between the own NPCs, comments on the environment, on non joinable NPCs and enemies would be a nice addition. Banters between the joinable NPCs and the character in the party leader spot (when not one of the joinable NPCs) based on gender, race, class, alignment, stats, current effects…. etc, that would be awesome also.
While the game is good and the right to make all the characters of the party should of course be kept, I don’t see how adding NPCs
I can totally understand the reasoning behind their decision to not add any NPCs.
Keep in mind that in BG(II), the NPCs work well, because there's a rich variety to choose from. BG1 has 25 (29 with EE) and BG2 has 16 (17 with ToB, 22 with EE). If both had exactly 5 to choose, and you'd be stuck with exactly those ones, it wouldn't nearly be as interesting, and might even be annoying. Heck, check the EE NPCs. It's already considered quite annoying that you need to have them in your group to explore those new areas...
To do it well, they'd have to add at least a dozen NPCs, possibly more.
I'll keep my hopes up that the IWDNPC mod gets converted and then seriously expanded upon.
I understand their decision too, I just don’t agree with it, but nonetheless it’s not a right or wrong decision, it’s just a decision the devs taken.
About the variety of NPCs, IWD has a huge advantage over BG, you can create one or more characters to the party in any game mode, which means I don’t have to take 5 joinables NPCs with me for one more reason now among other many (I don’t need to have the party full, I don’t need to keep the alignment restricted (…) and now I don’t need to have one created character only anymore).
When no character is the special char name (son of bhaal, extra innate powers, slayer transformation (...)), I feel no antagonism in add more than one created character to the party.
Plus where are you going to put all these NPC's? Lets just say you added 10 of them. 3 good 4 neutral, 3 evil. Its not particularly reasonable to have all these people hanging out in and around Easthaven or Kuldahar (these aren't bustling cities like Neverwinter or Athkatla), and if you don't have them in one of these locations you run the risk of people just not using them (think NPC's like Mazzy, Skie, Alora, Tiax, Quayle, Yeslick, etc).
(and now I just realized how many shorty NPC's are placed in just garbage starting locations hehe)
Then there are players who start a new game in HoW. Would these NPC's be chilling then in Lonelywood or the barbarian camp? Also what about dialogue and party conflicts? Would they be using a different dialogue file in HoW compared to the original game, and how would that work out for players who temporarily travel from Kuldahar to do the HoW quests? Anyways to me given how the game is structured (compared to BG2 for instance) it would make it more difficult to add in dialogue between NPC's and to add in NPCs.
I don’t agree or feel the restriction you pointed @elminster, the spine of the world where every criminal go when they want to be forgotten, where many marvels events happens (…) I really, really don’t see why I wouldn’t find joinable NPCs there. Reading books of Drizzt Saga tend to make me disagree with you in this point.
Hearth of the Winter is an expansion, and as made in Baldur’s Gate with the NPCs, solve the problem wouldn’t be hard, so it’s a minor question on the bigger picture.
There is already a NPC mod. Its called, IWD NPC Project. It's by the talented @kulyok, so if people really need talking NPCs that's the mod for you.
@Elminster - I figure if Beamdog would have added NPCs, then they should do it like the IWD NPC Project does it. Make them importable characters rather than placed in Easthaven, Kuldahar, Lonelywood, etc.
Yes, i liked a bit that mod but I would rather get the Joinable NPCs in the old way. Almost every actual game (if not all) follow Baldur’s Gate style of joinable NPCs, and there’s a reason for that (the system works).
If you want a joinable NPC in IWDEE then wait until it is released then write/create your own NPC mod and share it with the world. I think there are a few NPC mods already out there; try looking for Kulyok's mod over at the Pocket Plant Group. I can't think of any others at this time....
I have some difficult to mod, so this probally isn’t an option for me , i also hope, as you, that more NPCs for IWD to be created, but some core NPCs would have been interesting.
@Darek_Death, I couldn’t agree more. Your post deserve a promotion!
There's only a slight problem with that list. Most of those people die in the story. Hrothgar and the other Easthaven expedition die in that avalanche on their way to Kuldahar, and their gravestones in IWD2 reflect that. Erevain dies in Dragon's Eye trying to save the people, he's also related to Xan, so he's doomed by proxy. Everard is like the High Priest in temple of Tempus in Easthaven, I doubt he's going to leave, and then there's the fact that he sacrifices himself in the end.
Changing the game's story just so then you can have joinable NPCs is a bad idea at best and causes a chain of plot holes in existing content. You not only change IWD, but you change IWD2, as well as change the Xan mod because for Xan, Erevain died in Dragon's Eye, and had a gravestone placed in Kuldahar, and he goes to see it. It was the same reason as to why a Clara NPC shouldn't exist. Clara stays alive, and you change the story quite a bit.
No need to change the history. You can get NPCs in any act, not only in the begin. Besides, if you get back in later acts and the ppl are supposed to be dead, the NPC should be gone as well, simple as that.
In Baldur’s Gate we have moments where we kill by act or inaction some NPCs, Viconia, Yeslick being the main examples (of inaction acts that kill NPCs).
I don’t see a single reason to change the history.
I fully expect new NPCs will be created by the community in the months following IWDEE release. Maybe even Beamdofg may release some as DLCs.
But all the polls in this forum pointed that if an EE version of IWD was ever released it should not add NPCs. I would be surprised if the Devs didn't listen to the prevalent opinion in those polls.
Nice to know the possibility is still open, but … prevalent opinion? Maybe we should start a new pool now that IWD:EE is an fact, not an promise anymore.
But… in one point I agree, if they come they should come as DLC. Nostalgia unfortunally prevents progression sometimes, as now. If NPCs are added to the core game that could get some more radical members of the forum too much upset. I support an NPC package, maybe $5 or 10 to the purchace, if I’m spending $19,90 in my credit card I don’t care much in put + $5 or 10 (if the content is up to the price).
Can't say I understand all the people saying they will refuse to buy IWD:EE unless NPC's are added though..
It is a curious phenomenon indeed. I'd understand if it was an enhancement they'd promised but then changed their mind about, but that's not the case.
I’m not, atm I just said I will surely not pre-order it, no appeal for me atm. Maybe I buy the game maybe I don’t, I don’t know as IWD never was my favorite game anyway, but if NPCs were to be added, I would surely buy the game, it’s just that.
Can't say I understand all the people saying they will refuse to buy IWD:EE unless NPC's are added though.. the game was never meant to have them in there.
Which is all fine and dandy if you liked IWD in the first place, but I can understand and share part of the sentiment of players that never got into IWD because it felt so empty in comparison to BG/BG2. They didn't really like IWD because of that and the addition of NPCs might make the game a different experience for them.
Exactly that
it's pretty much this. If someone didn't made a pool for NPC yet, maybe one should be made, with at least options for yes, no and DLC only.
Edit: to change repercution to repercussion, a very sad mistake of mine !
@kamuizin Don't get me wrong. I love joinable NPCs, and think Overhaul knocked it out of the park with Hexxat especially. It certainly does enhance a game to bolster a game's existing roster of NPCs. However, IWD has no baseline of NPCs, so Overhaul would be working from the ground up to put together a comprehensive list of joinable NPCs. Unfortunately, going by the discussions this forum has seen about BGEE and BG2EE, that would require a massive undertaking on Overhaul's part because a lot of the forumites expect a full roster for each moral axis of the Alignment grid. So, we're talking 15 NPCs (5 evil, 5 good, 5 neutral) which Overhaul must design, write, code interjections for, and give voice with a paid voice actor (voice actor coalitions get pissed if major roles go to in-house personnel). It just isn't realistic to expect that kind of investment when neither of their previous titles got that much NPC-related work.
Given the renewed interest in modding that EEs have ignited, though, you can probably count on the IWD NPC Project being updated for your purposes, and possibly the genesis of new NPC mods. Like the Hexxat/Clara debate, this is something best left to independent modders to resolve.
Comments
Whenever I play, my party might be silent from a mechanics perspective but I happily provide voice in my imagination. My party is more than a group of 'squad members' from Xcom. They have just as much personality as the ones in BG, possibly more so because I am not constrained by someone else's vision of who/what they are.
It is my strong hope that EE will add other value to the game such as additional areas and quests and items and classes/races.
Part of what made BG and that style of RPG my favorite was the essence of entering the protagonists life and becoming engulfed in the story and world, and I just don't feel that with Icewind Dale. Its just a fact of life that people end up socializing with other people, and romances just happen. Even in the frozen north, as evident by the fact that the races haven’t all gone extinct yet. Its almost unavoidable if you actually live as opposed to hiding in a cave alone.
So, I would extremely like to see PJNPCs in Icewind Dale. However, like that twitter post implied, that sort of story was never an intended feature of the Icewind Dale series. That being the case significantly lowers the value of the series in my opinion (still my favorite style of RPG though), but its just how it is. Additionally many of the fans of the Icewind Dale series seem to actually prefer that (I don't know why, but that's what they say), and to change that aspect of the game might bother them. So I understand why Beamdog might not do it.
However, if the game combined these features allowing players to make their entire party still and ignore PJNPCs they can't really complain because then the new features do not have to effect them at all. You could always do this in the BG games too, by making a private TCP/IP session. Doing so would probably increase the fan base; thus increase profits; as there are just as many people which hate the Icewind Dale series entirely (but love the BG series) because of the lack of this feature, finding the game too boring.
This is especially true since they made it so BG characters can't be transferred to IWD, preventing fans from transferring over their favorite BG PJNPCs. I am not one of those people that hate it (I do find it much more boring than BG series, but its still fun enough that I want to play it), I'm neutral towards IWD. But I see BG fans who love and hate the game around just as often.
So if there's no legal reason preventing them from adding PJNPCs, new and/or original IWD NPCs, I think that Beamdog is either just being lazy or we need to give them more money. They could always work on it after releasing IWD:EE and release a DLC pack to add the option of PJNPCs to the game, for an extra cost if need be. I know there are already mods to add PJNPCs to IWD (which will probably work on IWD:EE since the BG mods worked on BG:EE) but its not the same!
I disagree with Elminster’s sentiment that if a PJNPC doesn’t start in a big town its in a crap start location. I loved discovering new PJNPCs throughout the Baldur’s Gate world, it was one of my favorite things in fact. Also, he spoke of the difficulty of adding dozens of new characters to the game but didn’t consider the fact that there are already dozens of NPCs in the game which could be made to be PJNPCs, making it so Beamdog wouldn’t have to create as many entirely new NPCs and dialogue content to go with them. For Example: Hrothgar, Everard, Erevain, Anyone Else that goes on the expedition to Kuldahar…
They could kill off half or 2/3 of the PJNPCs you are able to get at the start of Ch1 giving you a couple based on main character make up and the dialogue and quest choices you made in Easthaven adding that extra strategic puzzle. Of course giving you the option to part ways after the avalanche too, like BG the ability to kick party members at any time should be included. They could have the PJNPCs AND PCs that are booted meet up at an Inn in Kuldahar, like they had places for PJNPCs to meet in BG.
Having them meet up somewhere makes it so you can easily switch party members for different situations, and that way I could use them as mules heheh. Well then again they could just add a house or storage chest to accomplish that.
I remember the first time I played IWD. It’s D&D and FR and IE and all that so I thought it was basically the next game in the Baldur's Gate series (by the same developer) just a different story, but I expected it to be the same game basically. I only made my main character, so I could have room to get PJNPCs and I kept expecting them to be around the next corner. When I couldn’t find any around Easthaven I was convinced that when I joined the expedition to Kuldahar I'd get my first party member, like Hrothgar and those others I mentioned.
But even after that let down I was still expecting to find PJNPCs, until about half way through the game I think. I remember there being tons of NPCs I thought would/could be PJNPCs but turned out not to be. I was pretty perturbed about it not having PJNPCs on my first play through because I never heard about it not having them, and soloing wasn’t really fun during that play through because that’s not what I wanted to do at the time. Anyway it would be amazing to me, and lots of other players if they not only added new PJNPCs but made old NPCs into PJNPCs.
I never said I didn't imbue personalities into my tactical RPG team members. I do, and did so in XCOM.
Changing the game's story just so then you can have joinable NPCs is a bad idea at best and causes a chain of plot holes in existing content. You not only change IWD, but you change IWD2, as well as change the Xan mod because for Xan, Erevain died in Dragon's Eye, and had a gravestone placed in Kuldahar, and he goes to see it. It was the same reason as to why a Clara NPC shouldn't exist. Clara stays alive, and you change the story quite a bit.
But all the polls in this forum pointed that if an EE version of IWD was ever released it should not add NPCs. I would be surprised if the Devs didn't listen to the prevalent opinion in those polls.
That way you still create your own characters from scratch, but get party banters, reactions along the way etc, and still avoid adding NPC's.
Would require some code changes to the engine though, and a lot of work going into writing banters, making matching soundsets etc.
Well, it should be as much work as actually creating an NPC.. plus the coding part.
Though the amount of work to create ~20 or so personalities would probably be a bit too much for Beamdog at this point.
Can't say I understand all the people saying they will refuse to buy IWD:EE unless NPC's are added though.. the game was never meant to have them in there.
In a way I actually somewhat preferred this over BG style even though I still loved the party banters by the NPCs in BG series.
I personally feel the same way. However, I know that the game itself is not about that, so I don't think it's reasonable to suddenly add NPCs to a game where the players don't expect any, so I don't think it would be a wise choice to suddenly add them in.
Don't add them and you'll displease crowd A, add them and you'll displease crowd B. Not adding them is then the much cheaper and thus financially better option, and keeps the possibility open to create an NPC DLC pack along the road.
I personally hope for lots of interesting NPC mods to appear, though.
I wish I'd seen the polls about adding NPCs - I definitely would have voted in favour of it. I can only echo what has been said already, that the companions in BG are a big part of what makes the experience so rich and rewarding.
The argument that IWD is not about NPC companions irks me more every time I see it. In my opinion that's what it should be about - strangers heeding a call for help, thrown together by tragic circumstance, their relationships forged in the furnace of adversity.
Roll on the DLC!
I have nothing against more interjections and race-/class-specific quests, but IWD just isn't about NPCs. With them, a hypothetical EE would be a different experience, but it wouldn't really be an EE. EE in my opinion means taking the fundament that is there and improving on it. BG:EE featured new NPCs and dialogue, because the old version had it as well. They enhanced an already existing thing (well, maybe they just plopped BG2-style interaction into a game that didn't have it before, but I digress). Drawing a parallel to IWD, enhancing what is there and focussing on making the strengths of the game even stronger would probably mean something like new combat maneuvers, additional spells and skills, more weapons and more enemies.
To sum it up, an EE in my opinion shouldn't be some sort of dance remix to make a formerly niche rock song into something everyone can dance to, but it should rather cater to the existing fans of that rock song... maybe call it a "digital remastering". That's what I think the point of doing an Enhanced Edition is. Polishing the old game, not chopping it up and building a new one from its parts. If you want to change a lot, don't call it enhanced. Call it Director's Cut, spiritual successor, re-imagining or IWD RMX.
IWD generally seems like an interesting game, but the lack of party interaction causes me to keep it on the shelf in favor of other games. It's just that thing that's missing to me, while the combination of hunting aliens and making sure my troops are cooking their own meals is not an interesting combination.
But I agree that the inclusion of NPCs into the game would change the game from what it is originally, and while it would be more appealing to me and some others, it would make the game less appealing to yet other people that would get these additional NPCs shoved in their faces, so I don't think it should be included in the base game.
Second reason it shouldn't be included in the base game, is because to make it interesting, they have to include 10+ NPCs, to prevent you from being stuck with NPCs you don't like, which is quite a bit of work.
GOG.com is catering to the existing fans. The whole point of these projects is to make the games accessible to a new, broader, audience - and times have changed.
Why not include the dance remix with the re-mastered version? That it's included in the download doesn't mean you ever have to listen to it, if you choose not to, but it allows those who do want to dance the opportunity to do so.
They've added 6 pre-generated characters to the character creation screen (if IWD is really all about making your own party then they've already taken a step away from that), no one is suggesting that you *have* to use *all* or *any* of them. That is where to add companion NPCs to the game and if you want them, use them - if you don't, then don't. It changes nothing about the game if you choose not to use them.
Further still, generally those of us who do want companions are willing to pay extra for them as DLC (we realise that 10-12 companions, even 'just' BG style companions, will take time and effort - that's not a reason not to make it happen!). That way those who don't want it don't even have to see it in their games.
We just *really* want to dance!
The suggestion that we're trying to put across is that these 6 new pre-gens could be fleshed out to function as 'real' companions (with the addition of 4-6 more). Replacing them with what you make for yourself would change nothing about the game for you, but it would allow those who want sensible, balanced, interesting party interaction (which is often, in my experience, lacking in NPC mods), to have variety and a greatly enriched experience.
It will still be 'your' IWD, it'll just give 'us' the opportunity to make it 'ours' too. I'm sure we're all in it together and want to support Beamdog/Overhaul for the hope of things that might come in the future. It is possible for *more* of us to be happy, if not *all* of us.
I wasn't refuting anything you stated. I was just musing, that is why I started with "Hmm...". I get that playable NPCs won't be part of the first production. Just wishful thinking on my end.
IMO, a hack n slash like IWD is much harder to overhaul than a BG or BG2. Adding NPCs and fixing bugs/expanding interface were the big changes in the BGEEs. I expect similar type interface/bug fixes in IWDEE, but NPCs could expand it in other ways that didn't exist while keeping the hack n slash feel.
@Schneidend @SapphireIce101 I believe the “that’s not IWD” reason to be a bit of unreasonable. It was a choice in the past, however we’re enhancing an edition here. I expected them because in my opinion joinable NPCs enrich any game they participate.
Besides, that would only sum to the game and would at least raise the replayability of IWD:EE, make your entire party if you want, or… add one (or more) NPCs to it.
Just to end, quoting part of Trent Osten twitter: “We discuss adding NPC chars to IWD:EE (…)” which meant the idea isn’t so absurd after all, the own devs have even reached the point of discuss it.
@CoM_Solaufein Not for me, at least not always. I don’t expect romances as I don’t see the existence of a main char in IWD, but interaction between the own NPCs, comments on the environment, on non joinable NPCs and enemies would be a nice addition. Banters between the joinable NPCs and the character in the party leader spot (when not one of the joinable NPCs) based on gender, race, class, alignment, stats, current effects…. etc, that would be awesome also.
While the game is good and the right to make all the characters of the party should of course be kept, I don’t see how adding NPCs
@Thels I understand their decision too, I just don’t agree with it, but nonetheless it’s not a right or wrong decision, it’s just a decision the devs taken.
About the variety of NPCs, IWD has a huge advantage over BG, you can create one or more characters to the party in any game mode, which means I don’t have to take 5 joinables NPCs with me for one more reason now among other many (I don’t need to have the party full, I don’t need to keep the alignment restricted (…) and now I don’t need to have one created character only anymore).
When no character is the special char name (son of bhaal, extra innate powers, slayer transformation (...)), I feel no antagonism in add more than one created character to the party.
@elminster I don’t agree or feel the restriction you pointed @elminster, the spine of the world where every criminal go when they want to be forgotten, where many marvels events happens (…) I really, really don’t see why I wouldn’t find joinable NPCs there. Reading books of Drizzt Saga tend to make me disagree with you in this point.
Hearth of the Winter is an expansion, and as made in Baldur’s Gate with the NPCs, solve the problem wouldn’t be hard, so it’s a minor question on the bigger picture.
@The_New_Romance @SapphireIce101"> Yes, i liked a bit that mod but I would rather get the Joinable NPCs in the old way. Almost every actual game (if not all) follow Baldur’s Gate style of joinable NPCs, and there’s a reason for that (the system works).
I have some difficult to mod, so this probally isn’t an option for me , i also hope, as you, that more NPCs for IWD to be created, but some core NPCs would have been interesting.
@Darek_Death, I couldn’t agree more. Your post deserve a promotion!
@SapphireIce101
@ No need to change the history. You can get NPCs in any act, not only in the begin. Besides, if you get back in later acts and the ppl are supposed to be dead, the NPC should be gone as well, simple as that.
In Baldur’s Gate we have moments where we kill by act or inaction some NPCs, Viconia, Yeslick being the main examples (of inaction acts that kill NPCs).
I don’t see a single reason to change the history.
@mlnevese Nice to know the possibility is still open, but … prevalent opinion? Maybe we should start a new pool now that IWD:EE is an fact, not an promise anymore.
But… in one point I agree, if they come they should come as DLC. Nostalgia unfortunally prevents progression sometimes, as now. If NPCs are added to the core game that could get some more radical members of the forum too much upset. I support an NPC package, maybe $5 or 10 to the purchace, if I’m spending $19,90 in my credit card I don’t care much in put + $5 or 10 (if the content is up to the price).
@Silverstar I’m not, atm I just said I will surely not pre-order it, no appeal for me atm. Maybe I buy the game maybe I don’t, I don’t know as IWD never was my favorite game anyway, but if NPCs were to be added, I would surely buy the game, it’s just that.
@Thels Exactly that
it's pretty much this. If someone didn't made a pool for NPC yet, maybe one should be made, with at least options for yes, no and DLC only.
Edit: to change repercution to repercussion, a very sad mistake of mine
Don't get me wrong. I love joinable NPCs, and think Overhaul knocked it out of the park with Hexxat especially. It certainly does enhance a game to bolster a game's existing roster of NPCs. However, IWD has no baseline of NPCs, so Overhaul would be working from the ground up to put together a comprehensive list of joinable NPCs. Unfortunately, going by the discussions this forum has seen about BGEE and BG2EE, that would require a massive undertaking on Overhaul's part because a lot of the forumites expect a full roster for each moral axis of the Alignment grid. So, we're talking 15 NPCs (5 evil, 5 good, 5 neutral) which Overhaul must design, write, code interjections for, and give voice with a paid voice actor (voice actor coalitions get pissed if major roles go to in-house personnel). It just isn't realistic to expect that kind of investment when neither of their previous titles got that much NPC-related work.
Given the renewed interest in modding that EEs have ignited, though, you can probably count on the IWD NPC Project being updated for your purposes, and possibly the genesis of new NPC mods. Like the Hexxat/Clara debate, this is something best left to independent modders to resolve.