(voice actor coalitions get pissed if major roles go to in-house personnel)
Wow, really? What a bunch of annoying pricks then. I've always wondered why developers don't just yank people off the streets (yes, I know voice acting isn't quite that simple, but you get my point) to do voice acting instead of using Jennifer Blum and Steve Hale for the billionth time.
I don’t agree or feel the restriction you pointed @elminster, the spine of the world where every criminal go when they want to be forgotten, where many marvels events happens (…) I really, really don’t see why I wouldn’t find joinable NPCs there. Reading books of Drizzt Saga tend to make me disagree with you in this point.
Hearth of the Winter is an expansion, and as made in Baldur’s Gate with the NPCs, solve the problem wouldn’t be hard, so it’s a minor question on the bigger picture.
Well for one thing the spine of the world/icewind dale is a huge place and you only visit tiny parts of it at a time. Making them NPC's that you start with at the beginning is one thing, but it wouldn't be realistic to find all these NPC's lying around not doing anything. Particularly given the circumstances found in Kuldahar when you arrive (which I'm not going to get into for spoiler reasons). I'm not really certain how you could justify that from a storytelling standpoint.
Heart of Winter is similar to ToB in the sense that you can start out in it and only play it/trials of the luremaster. I'm just asking how would these NPC's mechanically handle dialogue given how much shorter HoW is compared to the original game and given that you can either play it by going there from Kuldahar or by starting a new game. Would your characters be using the same dialogue meant to stretch out over the course of the original game, or would additional HoW exclusive dialogue need to be written?
Anyways I doubt the dialogue situation would be that easy either way. Especially if you had something like inter-party (between party members Aerie + Haer'Dalis style) romances going on.
(voice actor coalitions get pissed if major roles go to in-house personnel)
Wow, really? What a bunch of annoying pricks then. I've always wondered why developers don't just yank people off the streets (yes, I know voice acting isn't quite that simple, but you get my point) to do voice acting instead of using Jennifer Blum and Steve Hale for the billionth time.
Well, it's not like Oster can't voice Random Peasant #1. Also, getting pissed about their members not getting the work they do for a living is part of what unions exist to do.
Well for one thing the spine of the world/icewind dale is a huge place and you only visit tiny parts of it at a time. Making them NPC's that you start with at the beginning is one thing, but it wouldn't be realistic to find all these NPC's lying around not doing anything. Particularly given the circumstances found in Kuldahar when you arrive (which I'm not going to get into for spoiler reasons). I'm not really certain how you could justify that from a storytelling standpoint.
To play devil's advocate for the NPC enthusiast side of things, Kuldahar might be out of the question, but having a bunch of adventure-capable NPCs chilling in that first town you start in would make perfect sense.
That's kinda what I'm planning to roleplay my group. They started with only four members, as all the other professional cutthroats and ne'er-do-wells they know wimped out on going up North, so they picked up their fifth and sixth slots in the darkest corner of the tavern, like any good start of a D&D campaign.
Which is all fine and dandy if you liked IWD in the first place, but I can understand and share part of the sentiment of players that never got into IWD because it felt so empty in comparison to BG/BG2. They didn't really like IWD because of that and the addition of NPCs might make the game a different experience for them.
Yes but if someone never got into IWD or never even played it at all, how can that person objectively judge it if they don't have any experience with it at all?
Now I can speak from my own personal experience. I played Baldur's Gate series well before I decided to go into IWD. The first time I launched the game and realized you have to create all six characters I was kinda meh...but then I said to hell with my prejudice, I will try this or die trying. And once I got into the game I loved it! It felt different from BG and these are two completely separate games. The only similarity is that they are placed in the same universe/setup (FR - Faerun) and that the games shared the same engine. Everything else was different...and it was meant to be different.
BG (and BG2 especially) is all about how YOU, the protagonist, interact with your environment...NPCs and the world in general. On the other side we have IWD, which is a story driven action RPG more than anything. Those who played these games know what I am talking about. And those who have yet to play them both still will know as well in a few months when IWD:EE gets out.
Perhaps someone would say that my opinion is rigid but I still think adding joinable NPCs would ruin the entire experience and change the game completely. If someone wants NPCs get into modding, create your own mods and add NPCs that can join you. Although I don't see the point...the game has huge amount of content even without all that. Why ruin the game for some of the older fans like myself who want to play and experience the good old IWD I knew and played? Bah...
@kamuizin Don't get me wrong. I love joinable NPCs, and think Overhaul knocked it out of the park with Hexxat especially. It certainly does enhance a game to bolster a game's existing roster of NPCs. However, IWD has no baseline of NPCs, so Overhaul would be working from the ground up to put together a comprehensive list of joinable NPCs. Unfortunately, going by the discussions this forum has seen about BGEE and BG2EE, that would require a massive undertaking on Overhaul's part because a lot of the forumites expect a full roster for each moral axis of the Alignment grid. So, we're talking 15 NPCs (5 evil, 5 good, 5 neutral) which Overhaul must design, write, code interjections for, and give voice with a paid voice actor (voice actor coalitions get pissed if major roles go to in-house personnel). It just isn't realistic to expect that kind of investment when neither of their previous titles got that much NPC-related work.
Given the renewed interest in modding that EEs have ignited, though, you can probably count on the IWD NPC Project being updated for your purposes, and possibly the genesis of new NPC mods. Like the Hexxat/Clara debate, this is something best left to independent modders to resolve.
One of the poins you raised is one that worry me the most:
The capacity of mod NPCs. If beamdog don't make core NPCs i hope at least they change the source code suffice to let modders add the NPCs in Baldur's Gate style.
For me is more or less like:
*Core Beamdog NPCs - I'm pre-ordering tomorrow and willl count the days to the game release.
*Enhanced to allow modded NPCs to be added in Baldur's Gate Style (not from character creation screen only) - I will maybe pre-order before the release, maybe not. Possible soon or later i will buy the game (maybe not here based on gog, steam or other 3° part sales, if they even happen).
*No enhancement on NPC situation - Surelly no pre-order, maybe i buy the game... one day (or i will just play it in Neverwinter Nights 2 engine).
@Finellach, while i didn't liked much IWD (as i enjoyed BG and PS:T) i played it to the end at least 5 times, so i feel myself with experience enough to objectively criticize this feature.
Joinable NPCs are DIFFERENT of special protagonist.
While joinable NPCs are very well compatible with IWD, i have the same majority opinion for special protagonist feature that most of the members have, that this feature would be incompatible with IWD. Let's just not confuse one with the other.
One of the poins you raised is one that worry me the most:
The capacity of mod NPCs. If beamdog don't make core NPCs i hope at least they change the source code suffice to let modders add the NPCs in Baldur's Gate style.
For me is more or less like:
*Core Beamdog NPCs - I'm pre-ordering tomorrow and willl count the days to the game release.
*Enhanced to allow modded NPCs to be added in Baldur's Gate Style (not from character creation screen only) - I will maybe pre-order before the release, maybe not. Possible soon or later i will buy the game (maybe not here based on gog, steam or other 3° part sales, if they even happen).
*No enhancement on NPC situation - Surelly no pre-order, maybe i buy the game... one day (or i will just play it in Neverwinter Nights 2 engine).
*Like I said, this simply isn't a realistic expectation. If it turns you off from pre-ordering, that's your prerogative, but it was likely never going to be a feature of IWDEE.
*Well, the core of IWDEE is going to be BGEE's latest version, so obviously source code and moddability aren't an issue. It'll be just as moddable as BGEE.
*As much as I love NWN2 mechanically, it's not a pretty game. While the Icewind Dale mod is cool (ha! ice puns), you're really missing out on one of IWD's best features, that of detailed enemy sprites and gorgeous pre-rendered backgrounds.
Just made an pool for this issue, i kept it simple so we can get an overall opinion on the subject to present to the devs (if anyone bother to vote of course).
@Finellach, while i didn't liked much IWD (as i enjoyed BG and PS:T) i played it to the end at least 5 times, so i feel myself with experience enough to objectively criticize this feature.
Joinable NPCs are DIFFERENT of special protagonist.
While joinable NPCs are very well compatible with IWD, i have the same majority opinion for special protagonist feature that most of the members have, that this feature would be incompatible with IWD. Let's just not confuse one with the other.
Well if you didn't like it you didn't like it. It's a shame you didn't but life goes on. Not every game fits everyone's personal taste. The world doesn't revolve around you, me or anyone else.
And you missed my point completely...I was quite clear. The BG joinable NPCs are there to create the atmosphere for the Protagonist, that is YOU who is playing that game. It is their only and only purpose. They are not some imaginary rogue characters that have lives of their own...they are there for a specific purpose. Now, IWD doesn't have that because it is a different take on the RPG genre, it is a more action-oriented game, one that is focused more on the storyline rather than your own character who goes around the Sword Coast in his/hers quest to survive and ultimately reach (or not) his/hers godhood. You obviously prefer that personal approach more, I on the other hand enjoy both and I would not like them mixed. If I want joinable NPCs I'll play Baldur's Gate or some other similar game.
I agree, there is a big difference between enhancing a game and making a different type of game all together. I remember when IWD was being developed there was a lot of people complaining about the lack of an NPC parties, to which Black Isle replied "that's not the kind of game we are making".
For me, several games have been spoiled by having an NPC party of characters who I really didn't like very much. KotOR2, NWN2 and the Dragon Age games are in that catagory.
I agree, there is a big difference between enhancing a game and making a different type of game all together. I remember when IWD was being developed there was a lot of people complaining about the lack of an NPC parties, to which Black Isle replied "that's not the kind of game we are making".
For me, several games have been spoiled by having an NPC party of characters who I really didn't like very much. KotOR2, NWN2 and the Dragon Age games are in that catagory.
Say whaaaat? I may be on the no companions side when it comes to IWD, but the companions in those games you mentioned were awesome. HK-47? Hanharr? Neeshka? Khelgar? Sand? Zevran? Ohgren? Alistair? Sten? SHALE?! Come on.
I agree, there is a big difference between enhancing a game and making a different type of game all together. I remember when IWD was being developed there was a lot of people complaining about the lack of an NPC parties, to which Black Isle replied "that's not the kind of game we are making".
For me, several games have been spoiled by having an NPC party of characters who I really didn't like very much. KotOR2, NWN2 and the Dragon Age games are in that catagory.
Say whaaaat? I may be on the no companions side when it comes to IWD, but the companions in those games you mentioned were awesome. HK-47? Hanharr? Neeshka? Khelgar? Sand? Zevran? Ohgren? Alistair? Sten? SHALE?! Come on.
HK-47 was a carry-over from KOTOR, where he was much better written. As for the rest, they ranged from mildly irritating, to boring, to loathsome. (To be fair I never had HanHarr in my party, since I didn't do an evil playthrough of KOTOR2).
HK-47 was a carry-over from KOTOR, where he was much better written. As for the rest, they ranged from mildly irritating, to boring, to loathsome. (To be fair I never had HanHarr in my party, since I didn't do an evil playthrough of KOTOR2).
Pretty much nothing in KOTOR was better-written than KOTOR2, especially HK-47. But, eh, to each their own, on that account and all others.
As I said earlier in another thread, it would be nice if Beamdog added an option for modders to assign one player created character as the protagonist, just so mods have an easier time interacting between PCs and NPCs, as I understand that mods like IWD NPCs require your character to remain in the first slot.
HK-47 was a carry-over from KOTOR, where he was much better written. As for the rest, they ranged from mildly irritating, to boring, to loathsome. (To be fair I never had HanHarr in my party, since I didn't do an evil playthrough of KOTOR2).
Pretty much nothing in KOTOR was better-written than KOTOR2, especially HK-47. But, eh, to each their own, on that account and all others.
That's the problem though: NPCs are very dependant on the writer, and tastes in writing are highly subjective. I much preferred the writing on the first KOTOR, you didn't. It wasn't that either was "better written", the fact us, our tastes are different. You will get that with any added NPCs - some people will like them, but just as many will hate them. It's a lot of work for a zero sum outcome.
That's the problem though: NPCs are very dependant on the writer, and tastes in writing are highly subjective. I much preferred the writing on the first KOTOR, you didn't. It wasn't that either was "better written", the fact us, our tastes are different. You will get that with any added NPCs - some people will like them, but just as many will hate them. It's a lot of work for a zero sum outcome.
Which is exactly why NPCs, if ever added to the official game, would have to come in a pack of 10 or more, to make sure that you could fill up your party without being stuffed with characters that only annoy you.
That's the problem though: NPCs are very dependant on the writer, and tastes in writing are highly subjective. I much preferred the writing on the first KOTOR, you didn't. It wasn't that either was "better written", the fact us, our tastes are different. You will get that with any added NPCs - some people will like them, but just as many will hate them. It's a lot of work for a zero sum outcome.
Which is exactly why NPCs, if ever added to the official game, would have to come in a pack of 10 or more, to make sure that you could fill up your party without being stuffed with characters that only annoy you.
You would also need a bunch of different writers. 10 NPCs from a writer you didn't like is just 10 annoying NPCs.
That's the problem though: NPCs are very dependant on the writer, and tastes in writing are highly subjective. I much preferred the writing on the first KOTOR, you didn't. It wasn't that either was "better written", the fact us, our tastes are different. You will get that with any added NPCs - some people will like them, but just as many will hate them. It's a lot of work for a zero sum outcome.
Which is exactly why NPCs, if ever added to the official game, would have to come in a pack of 10 or more, to make sure that you could fill up your party without being stuffed with characters that only annoy you.
In IWD we can create more than one character in single player, and there's no difference to whom is in the first slot as party leader as IWD does not develop the idea of special character (atm for modded NPCs the difference exist for engine limitations, one i expect Beamdog to solve for future mods), so we could create 3 characters and let 3 NPCs join, we could create 2 characters and let 2 NPCs join and play with less than 6 characters (as i do sometimes in Baldur's Gate), in IWD specifically, we can even play with 4 characters for a while and create 2 more later if we want.
In games like this one (as it is with BG, PS:T, TOEE...) variety is everything. In some moment replayability will be based in which new experiences we can take from the game, and the different banters we can get from NPCs can play an important role on this.
(voice actor coalitions get pissed if major roles go to in-house personnel)
Wow, really? What a bunch of annoying pricks then. I've always wondered why developers don't just yank people off the streets (yes, I know voice acting isn't quite that simple, but you get my point) to do voice acting instead of using Jennifer Blum and Steve Hale for the billionth time.
I see, voice acting is yet another one of those careers that's difficult to get in to, but once you're in, you're there to stay.
…Just like every other profession I'm interested in.
K, I'm done being anxious for my future for now, carry on.
Something that would be an interesting take on this would be to add "personalities" to your created characters. Just like selecting a soundset, you would be able to select a personality with a whole lot of banters connected to it.
That way you still create your own characters from scratch, but get party banters, reactions along the way etc, and still avoid adding NPC's.
Would require some code changes to the engine though, and a lot of work going into writing banters, making matching soundsets etc.
They did that in Divinity: Original Sin. You could choose a preset personality for one or both of your characters. It was pretty cool.
Also, I'm not sure if the NPC mod that was mentioned is the only one available. I'm playing IWD Tutu right now and I installed a mod that added NPCs all over, and they are exactly like BG npcs. Join you, have a bit of banter here and there, and are very well done. I think thats just a Tutu thing though, since most of them all have kits. Still, I don't think I could play IWD without the companions.
There's only a slight problem with that list. Most of those people die in the story.
@SapphireIce101 The only person listed that you actually have an argument for is Everard because he's the High Priest of the town, which I was also thinking would be a reason for him to not be chosen as a PJNPC (I’ll just use JNPC to make it shorter and sound better). They could always add a new character as the disciple of Everard to be a JNPC though. Erevain could join your party until he dies at Dragon's Eye, and Hrothgar could just not die in the avalanche which was my point. He can die later, and be buried in the same place.
Changing the game's story just so then you can have joinable NPCs is a bad idea at best and causes a chain of plot holes in existing content.
Hrothgar not dying immediately doesn't change the story much. Besides that, the point was that is the perfect place to add in a JNPC or more because not only them but several unnamed people die in the avalanche so not dying and being one of the members that survived instead wouldn't effect any of the story. I never said characters like Erevain and Everard shouldn't die at the points in history where they are recorded dying at, as that would be a dumb thing for me to say because it changes the history of the world.
Just because they're in your party for a while doesn't mean they can't die before the end of the game, in fact its nearly impossible to not have at least 1 party member permanently die. In BG not only did JNPCs that did die and did not die in the historical records defy that in game (like if you kill Minsc in BG1 as an evil leader, he's still there in BG2 as part of your "good" party), but there were also specific death events scripted into the plot like Yoshimo in BG2. So, your point is invalid I'm afraid as the game is never going to be 100% to the historical record. You could see it as your own parallel version of history, or as simply a game which is based on history, it is impossible to be an exact replica of history.
But all the polls in this forum pointed that if an EE version of IWD was ever released it should not add NPCs. I would be surprised if the Devs didn't listen to the prevalent opinion in those polls.
I never participated in any of those polls @mlnevese, I was not made aware of their existence in any way. It looks like others are also in the same boat. This thread is the closest thing that I have seen on this that is in anyway related to the developers.
I think if they wanted a poll to be effective they wouldn't do it hidden in a forum somewhere but through their game launchers or websites. For example on the front page of their Main, IWD, and BG websites. So they apparently don't care what everyone or even all their current customers thinks anyway, only the people who use their forum the most or get lucky enough to spot it.
Can't say I understand all the people saying they will refuse to buy IWD:EE unless NPC's are added though.. the game was never meant to have them in there.
@Sed the reason is because they dislike IWD in the first place, but think that they might enjoy it if it had JNPCs to add a stronger feeling of connection with the story. Its just a matter of whether you play the game because you enjoy virtually killing people, or for the story, or for various other reasons.
Don't add them and you'll displease crowd A, add them and you'll displease crowd B. Not adding them is then the much cheaper and thus financially better option, and keeps the possibility open to create an NPC DLC pack along the road.
I personally hope for lots of interesting NPC mods to appear, though.
While I completely understand and agree with your logic here @Thels, what I don't understand is why ANYONE would be displeased with the addition of JNPCs. If you play IWD because you like the Hack'n'Slash and even if you dislike/hate the party banter, you could ignore or even kill the JNPCs and still just make your entire party just as you could in BG. It would change the game experience in no way for "Crowd B" so what is their goal here? Just to make sure "Crowd A" is unhappy? I just don't understand this logic, though I am aware people are this way.
I'm exaggerating, (everything else he said in this post)
You are exaggerating, and also wrong @The_New_Romance. The IWD Engine from the beginning supported JNPCs, it is the same Engine used in BG, made by roughly the same people (Black Isle, Interplay, WotC), and was the only game made with Infinity Engine to not have JNPCs. So it's actually the opposite, it would be like if Sims 4 suddenly got rid of the ability to have families or some other key feature. Then a new crowd of gamers becomes drawn to the game, then in a decade they make a new version of Sims and are considering whether they should add back the ability to have families and of course the people who liked it originally want that feature back but then the new crowd who are nostalgic to the game that they started playing on says no to it. Even though having a family is optional because you could turn off aging and never use the Try For Baby interaction as it is so it wouldn't effect them either way, for some reason they say no.
At the time I first played IWD I thought the lack of JNPCs was surely because the developers were being lazy. Which if EA did that hypothetical I presented for The Sims I would think the same thing, whether it is the case or they claim its not. This crowd of people who like IWD are not all this 1 particular IWD group which became drawn to the D&D game style after JNPCs were removed, there are people like me who liked BG first and like IWD because its like BG and would consider JNPCs an Enhancement of IWD. My point being that the addition of JNPCs doesn't just make the game appealing to other fans of the style that don't find it appealing. And I don't see it as an unrelated feature being added, I see it as an intended feature of this game style that was left out being restored.
To expand on Thels statement: Don't add them and you'll displease Crowd A and Crowd B, add them and you'll displease Crowd C. Crowd A being people who like the style, but dislike IWD for taking away JNPCs. Crowd B being people who like the style, and like IWD despite it not having JNPCs. Crowd C being people who like IWD because of features unrelated to what JNPCs would improve on. Not that one can easily predict the number of people in each of those groups.
Additionally, if we were having this argument about whether they should have removed JNPCs from BGEE (making it so you can make a full party in singleplay) I think it would go a lot differently, yet the points people would make are just as valid in this situation. And a BG where none of the characters can join your party and you make your own would be identical to IWD, which is the point I was making earlier, that they’re the same style of game just with one lacking a feature that all other games of this style have.
So, we're talking 15 NPCs (5 evil, 5 good, 5 neutral) which Overhaul must design, write, code interjections for, and give voice with a paid voice actor (voice actor coalitions get pissed if major roles go to in-house personnel). It just isn't realistic to expect that kind of investment when neither of their previous titles got that much NPC-related work.
I don't think anyone really expected them to add JNPCs in the 1 month before the intended release @Schneidend, they just thought it would be cool if they had done it. The only way they could implement it if they wanted to is with DLC, after they've made the money from sales of IWDEE. It is a quite large request, but they could come out with multiple DLC packs for them at different points in time.
For example 3 separate DLCs, a pack for Good, Evil, and Neutral. That and/or different packs like Avalanche Survivors, et cetera, which could add like 2-5 general characters of varying alignments and classes per DLC pack. The characters don't have to have huge amounts of conversation and interactions like a Minsc or Imoen, and for major characters like that they could make a DLC for just that character like they did originally with the new JNPCs they added in BGEE.
The only similarity is that they are placed in the same universe/setup (FR - Faerun) and that the games shared the same engine. Everything else was different...and it was meant to be different.
And have the same mechanics (D&D) and are brought to you by the same people (Black Isle, Interplay, WotC) and are the exact same genre and style of game. In fact the ONLY difference is that IWD does not have JNPCs, and that it takes place at a different place and time. Everyone keeps saying "IWD is a Hack'n'Slash" as if it is different from BG, but BG is ALSO a Hack'n'Slash game, just as D&D, and all games with D&D mechanics, are Hack'n'Slash games. The term refers to a focus on combat with hand-to-hand weapons as opposed to guns, you chop people up with swords just as much in BG.
And yes I played the BG series, and IWD (never got around to IWD2 but meant to), and the NWN series, and uncountable other RPGs, Action, Strategy, and other styles of games and I fully disagree with your assessment that IWD is a different style of game. Just because you people ignore the features that aren't your favorite; like the story line and the NPC interactions; doesn't mean its a purely combat oriented strategy game. If you want a pure Hack’n’Slash Strategy game play Warcraft, for primarily Hack’n’Slash RPG check out the Diablo series, which people who complain about the D&D system being too complicated will love (their mechanics are Sweet & Simple).
And for people who play the game ONLY for the Hacking and Slashing, I feel that they’re not playing IWD for the right reasons thus their opinion should not be considered for Enhancements of the game, because they do not know what the game is about. As people like that could care less who the developer is, where the game takes place, what mechanics it uses, et cetera. So they will still like the game no matter what we do to it, they’re just being (perhaps unintentionally) mean because they’re nostalgic and cainotophobic (afraid of change) which is childish and parochial. There are MANY various types of Hack’n’Slash games, of which they can play and be just as happy. Where as there are very few games of this style for fans of this style of game to play.
Perhaps someone would say that my opinion is rigid but I still think adding joinable NPCs would ruin the entire experience and change the game completely. If someone wants NPCs get into modding, create your own mods and add NPCs that can join you. Although I don't see the point...the game has huge amount of content even without all that. Why ruin the game for some of the older fans like myself who want to play and experience the good old IWD I knew and played? Bah...
How? How could it possibly change the game in any way? I really want to know because, as many people have pointed out, you can ignore JNPCs. The only thing that changes the game is the fact that they left JNPCs out in the first place. And also as I pointed out, you are not the older fans of the genre, you are the new fans in our eyes which only got into the game style after IWD came out. And despite what you might think, you would have enjoyed IWD just as much if it had JNPCs (and didn’t remove the ability to make your whole party in single player) because its exactly the same.
It’s ironic, Blizzard made WoW to entice the fans of these style of games (I never got into WoW, so I don’t really know if it worked, but everyone I know who plays WoW has never heard of BG or IWD or NWN, though a lot of them played Star Wars and Dragon Age games), and Black Isle/Interplay made (or claim to have made, I think they were just too lazy to put in NPCs so they claimed it was a dif style of game to reduce hate mail) IWD to entice the fans of tactical and strategy games (like Blizzard games). Only if that was their intention, they failed at making a game of a different style than what they were already doing. IWD is nothing like WC, SC, other strategy games, so I highly doubt people who are say hardcore Starcraft/Warcraft fans are as into IWD.
I like all of these games, but for very different reasons. Which is why the argument that IWD is different, focusing on tactics and strategy, is ridiculous to me. Because in that regard, I would consider IWD total sh—subpar, not even in the running for that matter. I like it for the aspects that are like BG. Any game that I can complete every challenge with nothing but a single guy with a sword, is not a strategy game in my book. I play it for the story, the history (from a first person perspective), and the lore, of which is enhanced with JNPCs.
The BG joinable NPCs are there to create the atmosphere for the Protagonist, that is YOU who is playing that game. It is their only and only purpose. They are not some imaginary rogue characters that have lives of their own...they are there for a specific purpose. Now, IWD doesn't have that because it is a different take on the RPG genre, it is a more action-oriented game, one that is focused more on the storyline...
That's an interesting point of view @Finellach, but its not accurate. Maybe you only feel that the JNPCs of BG only effect the protagonist’s story, but I don't see it that way. And maybe you think that the story of BG is different from IWD as its about a person rather than an event, but they are the same from my perspective.
BG is a series of books, the events of the game are a part of the lore and history of the world and the universe of the Forgotten Realms. The video games take place from the perspective of the protagonist because its easier for a video game based on a historical event to revolve around a key character(s) in the event and in most cases it would feel like an interactive history book otherwise. IWD is ALSO a series of books (but at a different time), and the events of the books, the IWD vg series, the BG vg series, and the NWN vg series are all part of the history of the planet they take place on.
You are still living out the history from the main group of peoples perspective in IWD, the difference is in BG the developers included most of the historical figures as party companions and allowed you to make your own version of the protagonist instead of being restricted to playing Abdel Adrian (as many RPGs do, restrict you to specific characters of the story) who is the person your character replaces in the BG game. They also added other JNPCs in case some people hated the historical figures. But either way, BG2 started as if BG1 had happened as to historical record not as to your own play through.
In the IWD game series instead of replacing just the parties leader with your own, they replaced the entire party of adventurers with your own. However in both cases you can choose to import the real protagonist(s) of the story from the pre-generated characters as well as including alternates to choose from in case you're not interested in playing the type of character the historical figures were (perhaps in IWD, lacking the former set of pregens). Which brings up another good point, that they could steal the JNPCs put around the game from the original Pre-Gens then all they would have to do is create dialogue and hire voice actors. But the reason I suggested taking characters already in the game and make them able to join the party is because the dialogue and character concept is most of the work, at least they wouldn’t have to work as hard if they used characters like Hrothgar and others throughout the game which already exist, and have a personality concepts developed already.
But the other issue I want to address is, in BG the JNPCs pull you into the story (by that I mean, makes you care about the story and invest emotion in it) by letting you experience the individual conversations and minor stuff that's not part of the main historical events, making you feel included as a party member rather than as just an onlooker. Which to me is the main reason for JNPCs. IWD does the same thing, but has those interactions between the group and other historical figures minus the group interactions with each other leaving that to imagination. (I have no imagination, that's why I play video games, so this blows for me.) Which is another reason why it IS an Enhancement to IWD to add inter-party communication, of which a method is JNPCs though I've heard some other decent ways this could be implemented in this thread.
@Sed brought up the idea of making it so personality traits could be applied to characters you make, I don’t know if this is what he was thinking or not but they could make set personalities/dialogues like you would for a JNPC then allow the player to apply it to characters by choosing it in voice settings:
Sound (Sound Pack Selection) NONE Female_Fighter_1 Female_Fighter_2 … Female_Mage_4 … HOW_Male_2 … Male_Thief_2 … Female_Elf_Ranger … Female_Orc_Fighter … Male_Human_Paladin … Et Cetera (As in all the original Sound Packs but add new Sound Packs which include inter-party dialogue to the end of the list too.)
Another way is like a few people said, with new pregen options which have personalities tied to them. Of course if doing the last method they could design those personalities based on current (or new) pre-gen characters that came on the original IWD, then apply those personalities to those characters. So that people could play the pregens and have them act like JNPCs in BG or if they want to make their own characters they could make all unique characters but still not be denied the inter-party communication, by applying the personalities in character creation. Which sounds like the best alternative to JNPCs to me.
Another one of the reasons people want to play JNPCs is because of their standing. This would be just as much an issue regarding games based on Earth historical events. But I think most people can understand the desire and preference to play with companions of historical events which you learned about in school rather than playing a game based in that period and not having the option to play with the figures involved historically. The same feeling applies here, just that not everyone is realizing and understanding that feeling.
For (a weak) example, if Civilization got rid of their Leader options and just let you choose what traits you want. A ton of people would love that and they'd get new fans probably, but some people would dislike the change because they can no longer play as Winston Churchill, George Washington, Rameses II of Egypt, et cetera. These games are not very similar, but its the best example to express the desire one feels to play with characters that have their own history and personality rather than simply not having the option to do so.
Edit: Added @username tags. I don't know if it matters, since Quote probably already notifies people, but just in case...
Also, I'm not sure if the NPC mod that was mentioned is the only one available. I'm playing IWD Tutu right now and I installed a mod that added NPCs all over, and they are exactly like BG npcs. Join you, have a bit of banter here and there, and are very well done. I think thats just a Tutu thing though, since most of them all have kits. Still, I don't think I could play IWD without the companions.
@DavidW included some basic NPCs for IWD-in-BG2. In his words:
The IWD-in-BG2 fixpack/tweakpack ships with twelve joinable NPCs. These are BG1-level (so no banter, not many interjections) and are built out of the portraits and sounds that come with IWD (as well as using bits of class-specific IWD dialog). You can get these NPCs by installing the appropriate component of "ice-tutu-tweaks", the tweakpack that ships with IWD-in-BG2. Seven are in Kuldahar, five in Easthaven.
(voice actor coalitions get pissed if major roles go to in-house personnel)
Wow, really? What a bunch of annoying pricks then. I've always wondered why developers don't just yank people off the streets (yes, I know voice acting isn't quite that simple, but you get my point) to do voice acting instead of using Jennifer Blum and Steve Hale for the billionth time.
While I can agree I'm so tired of the same people denying wannabe stars like myself a chance to shine... you can tell whose inhouse or who isn't giving a shit. They're soft spoken, undramatic, even when the character calls for deadpan, and don't realize that more is better.
So yes a voice actor is needed, but... well, I'll do the work for half the price and some name recognition... hell, if modders need a voice for anything.... seriously!
I'm happy with it that way. I actually really enjoy playing IWD with a custom made party of friends who's back stories and interactions I can make up as I go along.
Should do a forum members play through. Make your characters, give them back stories, upload them here. We all download and play each others stories for a bit of sport! :P
(voice actor coalitions get pissed if major roles go to in-house personnel)
Wow, really? What a bunch of annoying pricks then. I've always wondered why developers don't just yank people off the streets (yes, I know voice acting isn't quite that simple, but you get my point) to do voice acting instead of using Jennifer Blum and Steve Hale for the billionth time.
While I can agree I'm so tired of the same people denying wannabe stars like myself a chance to shine... you can tell whose inhouse or who isn't giving a shit. They're soft spoken, undramatic, even when the character calls for deadpan, and don't realize that more is better.
So yes a voice actor is needed, but... well, I'll do the work for half the price and some name recognition... hell, if modders need a voice for anything.... seriously!
I don't think I'm that wrong when about 75% of pollers in the other thread seem to agree with me. Also, same engine doesn't mean same game. Would you argue for putting guns into Dragon Age because it uses the Frostbite engine Battlefield established?
Fair enough they're not doing NPCs but if we have to make our own companions they're gonna have to include some new sound sets (and portraits for that matter). Most of the female ones are just dire
I don't think I'm that wrong when about 75% of pollers in the other thread seem to agree with me. Also, same engine doesn't mean same game. Would you argue for putting guns into Dragon Age because it uses the Frostbite engine Battlefield established?
A) I pointed out that those polls only included a small fraction of people, so their outcome is completely baseless and unscientific. For example if I asked 10 people from this thread who said they were pro JNPCs whether to add JNPCs or not, the results of the poll would be 100% against you, and be just as acceptable as those other polls which also had limited participation.
Which is why I included several reasons, and comprehensive examples which took me a great deal of time and not just the fact that they use the same Engine. Ignoring 99% of what I said so you can make a counter argument makes your argument... lacking.
Comments
Heart of Winter is similar to ToB in the sense that you can start out in it and only play it/trials of the luremaster. I'm just asking how would these NPC's mechanically handle dialogue given how much shorter HoW is compared to the original game and given that you can either play it by going there from Kuldahar or by starting a new game. Would your characters be using the same dialogue meant to stretch out over the course of the original game, or would additional HoW exclusive dialogue need to be written?
Anyways I doubt the dialogue situation would be that easy either way. Especially if you had something like inter-party (between party members Aerie + Haer'Dalis style) romances going on.
That's kinda what I'm planning to roleplay my group. They started with only four members, as all the other professional cutthroats and ne'er-do-wells they know wimped out on going up North, so they picked up their fifth and sixth slots in the darkest corner of the tavern, like any good start of a D&D campaign.
Now I can speak from my own personal experience. I played Baldur's Gate series well before I decided to go into IWD. The first time I launched the game and realized you have to create all six characters I was kinda meh...but then I said to hell with my prejudice, I will try this or die trying. And once I got into the game I loved it! It felt different from BG and these are two completely separate games. The only similarity is that they are placed in the same universe/setup (FR - Faerun) and that the games shared the same engine. Everything else was different...and it was meant to be different.
BG (and BG2 especially) is all about how YOU, the protagonist, interact with your environment...NPCs and the world in general. On the other side we have IWD, which is a story driven action RPG more than anything. Those who played these games know what I am talking about. And those who have yet to play them both still will know as well in a few months when IWD:EE gets out.
Perhaps someone would say that my opinion is rigid but I still think adding joinable NPCs would ruin the entire experience and change the game completely. If someone wants NPCs get into modding, create your own mods and add NPCs that can join you. Although I don't see the point...the game has huge amount of content even without all that. Why ruin the game for some of the older fans like myself who want to play and experience the good old IWD I knew and played? Bah...
The capacity of mod NPCs. If beamdog don't make core NPCs i hope at least they change the source code suffice to let modders add the NPCs in Baldur's Gate style.
For me is more or less like:
*Core Beamdog NPCs - I'm pre-ordering tomorrow and willl count the days to the game release.
*Enhanced to allow modded NPCs to be added in Baldur's Gate Style (not from character creation screen only) - I will maybe pre-order before the release, maybe not. Possible soon or later i will buy the game (maybe not here based on gog, steam or other 3° part sales, if they even happen).
*No enhancement on NPC situation - Surelly no pre-order, maybe i buy the game... one day (or i will just play it in Neverwinter Nights 2 engine).
@Finellach, while i didn't liked much IWD (as i enjoyed BG and PS:T) i played it to the end at least 5 times, so i feel myself with experience enough to objectively criticize this feature.
Joinable NPCs are DIFFERENT of special protagonist.
While joinable NPCs are very well compatible with IWD, i have the same majority opinion for special protagonist feature that most of the members have, that this feature would be incompatible with IWD. Let's just not confuse one with the other.
*Well, the core of IWDEE is going to be BGEE's latest version, so obviously source code and moddability aren't an issue. It'll be just as moddable as BGEE.
*As much as I love NWN2 mechanically, it's not a pretty game. While the Icewind Dale mod is cool (ha! ice puns), you're really missing out on one of IWD's best features, that of detailed enemy sprites and gorgeous pre-rendered backgrounds.
And you missed my point completely...I was quite clear. The BG joinable NPCs are there to create the atmosphere for the Protagonist, that is YOU who is playing that game. It is their only and only purpose. They are not some imaginary rogue characters that have lives of their own...they are there for a specific purpose. Now, IWD doesn't have that because it is a different take on the RPG genre, it is a more action-oriented game, one that is focused more on the storyline rather than your own character who goes around the Sword Coast in his/hers quest to survive and ultimately reach (or not) his/hers godhood. You obviously prefer that personal approach more, I on the other hand enjoy both and I would not like them mixed. If I want joinable NPCs I'll play Baldur's Gate or some other similar game.
Beamdog should be looking to enhance the games, just like the title says - but not alter them.
If there are people that want to see the fundamental spirit of a game altered, then let them mod it to be what they want.
For me, several games have been spoiled by having an NPC party of characters who I really didn't like very much. KotOR2, NWN2 and the Dragon Age games are in that catagory.
In games like this one (as it is with BG, PS:T, TOEE...) variety is everything. In some moment replayability will be based in which new experiences we can take from the game, and the different banters we can get from NPCs can play an important role on this.
…Just like every other profession I'm interested in.
K, I'm done being anxious for my future for now, carry on.
Also, I'm not sure if the NPC mod that was mentioned is the only one available. I'm playing IWD Tutu right now and I installed a mod that added NPCs all over, and they are exactly like BG npcs. Join you, have a bit of banter here and there, and are very well done. I think thats just a Tutu thing though, since most of them all have kits. Still, I don't think I could play IWD without the companions.
Hrothgar not dying immediately doesn't change the story much. Besides that, the point was that is the perfect place to add in a JNPC or more because not only them but several unnamed people die in the avalanche so not dying and being one of the members that survived instead wouldn't effect any of the story. I never said characters like Erevain and Everard shouldn't die at the points in history where they are recorded dying at, as that would be a dumb thing for me to say because it changes the history of the world.
Just because they're in your party for a while doesn't mean they can't die before the end of the game, in fact its nearly impossible to not have at least 1 party member permanently die. In BG not only did JNPCs that did die and did not die in the historical records defy that in game (like if you kill Minsc in BG1 as an evil leader, he's still there in BG2 as part of your "good" party), but there were also specific death events scripted into the plot like Yoshimo in BG2. So, your point is invalid I'm afraid as the game is never going to be 100% to the historical record. You could see it as your own parallel version of history, or as simply a game which is based on history, it is impossible to be an exact replica of history.
I never participated in any of those polls @mlnevese, I was not made aware of their existence in any way. It looks like others are also in the same boat. This thread is the closest thing that I have seen on this that is in anyway related to the developers.
I think if they wanted a poll to be effective they wouldn't do it hidden in a forum somewhere but through their game launchers or websites. For example on the front page of their Main, IWD, and BG websites. So they apparently don't care what everyone or even all their current customers thinks anyway, only the people who use their forum the most or get lucky enough to spot it.
@Sed the reason is because they dislike IWD in the first place, but think that they might enjoy it if it had JNPCs to add a stronger feeling of connection with the story. Its just a matter of whether you play the game because you enjoy virtually killing people, or for the story, or for various other reasons.
While I completely understand and agree with your logic here @Thels, what I don't understand is why ANYONE would be displeased with the addition of JNPCs. If you play IWD because you like the Hack'n'Slash and even if you dislike/hate the party banter, you could ignore or even kill the JNPCs and still just make your entire party just as you could in BG. It would change the game experience in no way for "Crowd B" so what is their goal here? Just to make sure "Crowd A" is unhappy? I just don't understand this logic, though I am aware people are this way.
You are exaggerating, and also wrong @The_New_Romance. The IWD Engine from the beginning supported JNPCs, it is the same Engine used in BG, made by roughly the same people (Black Isle, Interplay, WotC), and was the only game made with Infinity Engine to not have JNPCs. So it's actually the opposite, it would be like if Sims 4 suddenly got rid of the ability to have families or some other key feature. Then a new crowd of gamers becomes drawn to the game, then in a decade they make a new version of Sims and are considering whether they should add back the ability to have families and of course the people who liked it originally want that feature back but then the new crowd who are nostalgic to the game that they started playing on says no to it. Even though having a family is optional because you could turn off aging and never use the Try For Baby interaction as it is so it wouldn't effect them either way, for some reason they say no.
At the time I first played IWD I thought the lack of JNPCs was surely because the developers were being lazy. Which if EA did that hypothetical I presented for The Sims I would think the same thing, whether it is the case or they claim its not. This crowd of people who like IWD are not all this 1 particular IWD group which became drawn to the D&D game style after JNPCs were removed, there are people like me who liked BG first and like IWD because its like BG and would consider JNPCs an Enhancement of IWD. My point being that the addition of JNPCs doesn't just make the game appealing to other fans of the style that don't find it appealing. And I don't see it as an unrelated feature being added, I see it as an intended feature of this game style that was left out being restored.
To expand on Thels statement: Don't add them and you'll displease Crowd A and Crowd B, add them and you'll displease Crowd C.
Crowd A being people who like the style, but dislike IWD for taking away JNPCs. Crowd B being people who like the style, and like IWD despite it not having JNPCs. Crowd C being people who like IWD because of features unrelated to what JNPCs would improve on. Not that one can easily predict the number of people in each of those groups.
Additionally, if we were having this argument about whether they should have removed JNPCs from BGEE (making it so you can make a full party in singleplay) I think it would go a lot differently, yet the points people would make are just as valid in this situation. And a BG where none of the characters can join your party and you make your own would be identical to IWD, which is the point I was making earlier, that they’re the same style of game just with one lacking a feature that all other games of this style have.
I don't think anyone really expected them to add JNPCs in the 1 month before the intended release @Schneidend, they just thought it would be cool if they had done it. The only way they could implement it if they wanted to is with DLC, after they've made the money from sales of IWDEE. It is a quite large request, but they could come out with multiple DLC packs for them at different points in time.
For example 3 separate DLCs, a pack for Good, Evil, and Neutral. That and/or different packs like Avalanche Survivors, et cetera, which could add like 2-5 general characters of varying alignments and classes per DLC pack. The characters don't have to have huge amounts of conversation and interactions like a Minsc or Imoen, and for major characters like that they could make a DLC for just that character like they did originally with the new JNPCs they added in BGEE.
And have the same mechanics (D&D) and are brought to you by the same people (Black Isle, Interplay, WotC) and are the exact same genre and style of game. In fact the ONLY difference is that IWD does not have JNPCs, and that it takes place at a different place and time. Everyone keeps saying "IWD is a Hack'n'Slash" as if it is different from BG, but BG is ALSO a Hack'n'Slash game, just as D&D, and all games with D&D mechanics, are Hack'n'Slash games. The term refers to a focus on combat with hand-to-hand weapons as opposed to guns, you chop people up with swords just as much in BG.
And yes I played the BG series, and IWD (never got around to IWD2 but meant to), and the NWN series, and uncountable other RPGs, Action, Strategy, and other styles of games and I fully disagree with your assessment that IWD is a different style of game. Just because you people ignore the features that aren't your favorite; like the story line and the NPC interactions; doesn't mean its a purely combat oriented strategy game. If you want a pure Hack’n’Slash Strategy game play Warcraft, for primarily Hack’n’Slash RPG check out the Diablo series, which people who complain about the D&D system being too complicated will love (their mechanics are Sweet & Simple).
And for people who play the game ONLY for the Hacking and Slashing, I feel that they’re not playing IWD for the right reasons thus their opinion should not be considered for Enhancements of the game, because they do not know what the game is about. As people like that could care less who the developer is, where the game takes place, what mechanics it uses, et cetera. So they will still like the game no matter what we do to it, they’re just being (perhaps unintentionally) mean because they’re nostalgic and cainotophobic (afraid of change) which is childish and parochial. There are MANY various types of Hack’n’Slash games, of which they can play and be just as happy. Where as there are very few games of this style for fans of this style of game to play.
How? How could it possibly change the game in any way? I really want to know because, as many people have pointed out, you can ignore JNPCs. The only thing that changes the game is the fact that they left JNPCs out in the first place. And also as I pointed out, you are not the older fans of the genre, you are the new fans in our eyes which only got into the game style after IWD came out. And despite what you might think, you would have enjoyed IWD just as much if it had JNPCs (and didn’t remove the ability to make your whole party in single player) because its exactly the same.
It’s ironic, Blizzard made WoW to entice the fans of these style of games (I never got into WoW, so I don’t really know if it worked, but everyone I know who plays WoW has never heard of BG or IWD or NWN, though a lot of them played Star Wars and Dragon Age games), and Black Isle/Interplay made (or claim to have made, I think they were just too lazy to put in NPCs so they claimed it was a dif style of game to reduce hate mail) IWD to entice the fans of tactical and strategy games (like Blizzard games). Only if that was their intention, they failed at making a game of a different style than what they were already doing. IWD is nothing like WC, SC, other strategy games, so I highly doubt people who are say hardcore Starcraft/Warcraft fans are as into IWD.
I like all of these games, but for very different reasons. Which is why the argument that IWD is different, focusing on tactics and strategy, is ridiculous to me. Because in that regard, I would consider IWD total sh—subpar, not even in the running for that matter. I like it for the aspects that are like BG. Any game that I can complete every challenge with nothing but a single guy with a sword, is not a strategy game in my book. I play it for the story, the history (from a first person perspective), and the lore, of which is enhanced with JNPCs.
That's an interesting point of view @Finellach, but its not accurate. Maybe you only feel that the JNPCs of BG only effect the protagonist’s story, but I don't see it that way. And maybe you think that the story of BG is different from IWD as its about a person rather than an event, but they are the same from my perspective.
BG is a series of books, the events of the game are a part of the lore and history of the world and the universe of the Forgotten Realms. The video games take place from the perspective of the protagonist because its easier for a video game based on a historical event to revolve around a key character(s) in the event and in most cases it would feel like an interactive history book otherwise. IWD is ALSO a series of books (but at a different time), and the events of the books, the IWD vg series, the BG vg series, and the NWN vg series are all part of the history of the planet they take place on.
You are still living out the history from the main group of peoples perspective in IWD, the difference is in BG the developers included most of the historical figures as party companions and allowed you to make your own version of the protagonist instead of being restricted to playing Abdel Adrian (as many RPGs do, restrict you to specific characters of the story) who is the person your character replaces in the BG game. They also added other JNPCs in case some people hated the historical figures. But either way, BG2 started as if BG1 had happened as to historical record not as to your own play through.
In the IWD game series instead of replacing just the parties leader with your own, they replaced the entire party of adventurers with your own. However in both cases you can choose to import the real protagonist(s) of the story from the pre-generated characters as well as including alternates to choose from in case you're not interested in playing the type of character the historical figures were (perhaps in IWD, lacking the former set of pregens). Which brings up another good point, that they could steal the JNPCs put around the game from the original Pre-Gens then all they would have to do is create dialogue and hire voice actors. But the reason I suggested taking characters already in the game and make them able to join the party is because the dialogue and character concept is most of the work, at least they wouldn’t have to work as hard if they used characters like Hrothgar and others throughout the game which already exist, and have a personality concepts developed already.
But the other issue I want to address is, in BG the JNPCs pull you into the story (by that I mean, makes you care about the story and invest emotion in it) by letting you experience the individual conversations and minor stuff that's not part of the main historical events, making you feel included as a party member rather than as just an onlooker. Which to me is the main reason for JNPCs. IWD does the same thing, but has those interactions between the group and other historical figures minus the group interactions with each other leaving that to imagination. (I have no imagination, that's why I play video games, so this blows for me.) Which is another reason why it IS an Enhancement to IWD to add inter-party communication, of which a method is JNPCs though I've heard some other decent ways this could be implemented in this thread.
@Sed brought up the idea of making it so personality traits could be applied to characters you make, I don’t know if this is what he was thinking or not but they could make set personalities/dialogues like you would for a JNPC then allow the player to apply it to characters by choosing it in voice settings:
Sound (Sound Pack Selection)
NONE
Female_Fighter_1
Female_Fighter_2
…
Female_Mage_4
…
HOW_Male_2
…
Male_Thief_2
…
Female_Elf_Ranger
…
Female_Orc_Fighter
…
Male_Human_Paladin
…
Et Cetera (As in all the original Sound Packs but add new Sound Packs which include inter-party dialogue to the end of the list too.)
Another way is like a few people said, with new pregen options which have personalities tied to them. Of course if doing the last method they could design those personalities based on current (or new) pre-gen characters that came on the original IWD, then apply those personalities to those characters. So that people could play the pregens and have them act like JNPCs in BG or if they want to make their own characters they could make all unique characters but still not be denied the inter-party communication, by applying the personalities in character creation. Which sounds like the best alternative to JNPCs to me.
Another one of the reasons people want to play JNPCs is because of their standing. This would be just as much an issue regarding games based on Earth historical events. But I think most people can understand the desire and preference to play with companions of historical events which you learned about in school rather than playing a game based in that period and not having the option to play with the figures involved historically. The same feeling applies here, just that not everyone is realizing and understanding that feeling.
For (a weak) example, if Civilization got rid of their Leader options and just let you choose what traits you want. A ton of people would love that and they'd get new fans probably, but some people would dislike the change because they can no longer play as Winston Churchill, George Washington, Rameses II of Egypt, et cetera. These games are not very similar, but its the best example to express the desire one feels to play with characters that have their own history and personality rather than simply not having the option to do so.
Edit: Added @username tags. I don't know if it matters, since Quote probably already notifies people, but just in case...
So yes a voice actor is needed, but... well, I'll do the work for half the price and some name recognition... hell, if modders need a voice for anything.... seriously!
Should do a forum members play through.
…I need to finish CrevsDaak's request lol