I never participated in any of those polls @mlnevese, I was not made aware of their existence in any way. It looks like others are also in the same boat. This thread is the closest thing that I have seen on this that is in anyway related to the developers.
I think if they wanted a poll to be effective they wouldn't do it hidden in a forum somewhere but through their game launchers or websites. For example on the front page of their Main, IWD, and BG websites. So they apparently don't care what everyone or even all their current customers thinks anyway, only the people who use their forum the most or get lucky enough to spot it.
There's a new poll in the forum in which the Nay NPC options are trouncing Yea NPC options.
@Sed the reason is because they dislike IWD in the first place, but think that they might enjoy it if it had JNPCs to add a stronger feeling of connection with the story. Its just a matter of whether you play the game because you enjoy virtually killing people, or for the story, or for various other reasons.
I think a lot of people who like IWD and don't want NPCs like the story just fine. If somebody doesn't like IWD, maybe they just shouldn't worry about it and should not buy it?
While I completely understand and agree with your logic here @Thels, what I don't understand is why ANYONE would be displeased with the addition of JNPCs. If you play IWD because you like the Hack'n'Slash and even if you dislike/hate the party banter, you could ignore or even kill the JNPCs and still just make your entire party just as you could in BG. It would change the game experience in no way for "Crowd B" so what is their goal here? Just to make sure "Crowd A" is unhappy? I just don't understand this logic, though I am aware people are this way.
There's the resources argument, which does have merit with a dev team as small as Overhaul. It'd be a lot of work, which means less work goes into other things.
Also, the original IWD was developed to intentionally not include NPCs. That's a mindset, a philosophy, that informed Black Isle's design and development of the game. I want Overhaul to share that mindset when they approach IWD and later IWD2. Eschew JNPCs in favor of focusing entirely on atmosphere, music, sound, gameplay mechanics, encounter design, level design, etc.
At the time I first played IWD I thought the lack of JNPCs was surely because the developers were being lazy. Which if EA did that hypothetical I presented for The Sims I would think the same thing, whether it is the case or they claim its not. This crowd of people who like IWD are not all this 1 particular IWD group which became drawn to the D&D game style after JNPCs were removed, there are people like me who liked BG first and like IWD because its like BG and would consider JNPCs an Enhancement of IWD. My point being that the addition of JNPCs doesn't just make the game appealing to other fans of the style that don't find it appealing. And I don't see it as an unrelated feature being added, I see it as an intended feature of this game style that was left out being restored.
As I mentioned above, JNPCs were left out intentionally. It was not an intended feature of the game, because early on Black Isle decided that there would be no JNPCs. Black Isle forum members asked if Icewind Dale would have JNPCs, and the devs responded in the negative. They were not forgotten and their lack of inclusion isn't laziness. IWD is a different style of game, and it is richer for it, as I explained above.
So, we're talking 15 NPCs (5 evil, 5 good, 5 neutral) which Overhaul must design, write, code interjections for, and give voice with a paid voice actor (voice actor coalitions get pissed if major roles go to in-house personnel). It just isn't realistic to expect that kind of investment when neither of their previous titles got that much NPC-related work.
I don't think anyone really expected them to add JNPCs in the 1 month before the intended release @Schneidend, they just thought it would be cool if they had done it. The only way they could implement it if they wanted to is with DLC, after they've made the money from sales of IWDEE. It is a quite large request, but they could come out with multiple DLC packs for them at different points in time.
For example 3 separate DLCs, a pack for Good, Evil, and Neutral. That and/or different packs like Avalanche Survivors, et cetera, which could add like 2-5 general characters of varying alignments and classes per DLC pack. The characters don't have to have huge amounts of conversation and interactions like a Minsc or Imoen, and for major characters like that they could make a DLC for just that character like they did originally with the new JNPCs they added in BGEE.
That sounds like 3 DLC packs that aren't new quests, areas, items, kits, etc., and therefore I'm not interested.
There's a new poll in the forum in which the Nay NPC options are trouncing Yea NPC options.
Again, a Forum Poll is not remotely close to acceptable data gathering. You read the part where I explained how a poll could actually be remotely effective right? Not only that but you conveniently left out the link so that if we did want to participate in the poll and vote in favor of JNPCs we have to hunt it down. To save everyone else the time here is the unofficial poll of narrowly selected participation I think @Schneidend was talking about (for those who want to participate):
By the way, it is 30% yes, 54% no, and 13% opinionless currently, making a 24% difference. However if this poll wasn't restricted to avid users of this forum who are interested in IWDEE alone then the results would be different.
I think a lot of people who like IWD and don't want NPCs like the story just fine. If somebody doesn't like IWD, maybe they just shouldn't worry about it and should not buy it?
That's not the point, I like the story too but it would be more enjoyable with JNPCs. In fact a lot of people who like IWD, and the genre, would enjoy it more with them. If I had to guess the number of people who would like IWD with JNPCs would not only vastly outweigh the number of fans who would stop playing it if JNPCs were added but outweigh all the newer fans of the genre-style that started playing with IWD.
Because most of the people who don't like IWD are probably doing just what you said and not involving themselves in the discussions and polls of IWDEE. And because most of the people who don't want JNPCs would more than likely have liked IWD just as much if they'd played it the first time with JNPCs on top of everything else. Because even if they added JNPCs there would be absolutely no difference to the game since you could do everything identical to the way you would if it lacked them by not letting them into you're party, they're just being nostalgic and cainotophobic.
Also, the original IWD was developed to intentionally not include NPCs. That's a mindset, a philosophy, that informed Black Isle's design and development of the game. I want Overhaul to share that mindset when they approach IWD and later IWD2. Eschew JNPCs in favor of focusing entirely on atmosphere, music, sound, gameplay mechanics, encounter design, level design, et cetera.
I never believed that, the game is totally set up so it could have JNPCs, its no different from BG or other games of the genre at all, the only difference is lack of JNPCs (and options differing). Which is why I think they were being lazy and claimed it was a design to reduce hate mail from the current fans of the genre at the time IWD was released. But I acknowledged its a lot of work for Overhaul and pointed out that if it was done at all it should be done as DLC. I would enjoy having it in the base game; but for the sake of money, time, and reducing hate mail I think it would be better for them if they did it as DLC vs adding to the initial release. Keep in mind I guarantee no matter what decision any developer makes in any game, there will be some amount of hate mail (no one can make everyone happy).
early on Black Isle decided that there would be no JNPCs.
How can you prove this? Everyone I knew who played the game back at its release found out about the lack of JNPCs while playing. No public announcement was made on TV or in any way that the public (as opposed to just their personal forum members or something) would hear about. And even if they did post it on the forum, generally developers work on a project for months or years before announcing it. So if they'd gotten most of the work done and it was either costing too much or taking too much time they may have decided to drop the creation of JNPCs just before those announcements.
IWD is a different style of game, and it is richer for it, as I explained above.
You need to play more video games if you think they're not the same style of game. Examples of different styles of games: Dragon Age, Diablo, Warcraft, Pokemon, The Sims, FPS games, any video game based on a TV show or Movie, every game in the world besides the BG series, IWD series, NWN2 (not 1), PS:T, and perhaps a couple other. There are very very few games of this style, but IWD is definitely one of them despite the lack of JNPCs. Making a game identical to the style of another game but lacking one feature of it does not make it a different style of game. If someone made a ripoff BG and the only difference was it was in a different area of the world, year in the world, and you could only play as Human (but there were all the other races appearing in the game) instead of multiple race options, you wouldn't consider that a different style of game would you?
This is the first time I've heard someone directly claim that not having JNPCs makes it a better game, however you haven't listed a single way how it's better and I've never seen one. And don't pull out the same nonsense excuse for the argument of it being a different style of game, "because it focuses more on the combat" because it does not focus on combat any more than BG or other games of the style.
That sounds like 3 DLC packs that aren't new quests, areas, items, kits, etc., and therefore I'm not interested.
There's not enough quests and kits for you, really? HOW are they going to add entire new areas? I would be more upset than you would be about a JNPC DLC if they made an Item DLC, as anyone can make items just like they can make their own photo and sound sets. I want them to spend NO time on things that users can easily add to, because that would be a pointless waste of time. Integrating JNPCs is not something users can easily add to the game. Plus there is already good Item mods for the game like this one: http://www.gibberlings3.net/iu_iwd/
Despite your personal preference, which I admit you probably share with many or all of the other people voting No on JNPCs, I would still bet money that more people in general have a different opinion regarding this than those who share your opinion.
just like they can make their own photo and sound sets. I want them to spend NO time on things that users can easily add to, because that would be a pointless waste of time.
Sorry to hack apart your wall of text (I did read all of it though, honest!) but I actually think that's some of the most sensible downloadable content they can add initially, assuming ID gets any at all. A portrait pack is easy money, it requires no "development" time. Once the artist hands over the finished artwork it only takes a few minutes to put it up in the online store thingie. Judging by comments about the portraits on these forums they'll probably sell reasonably well too assuming the price isn't silly.
Sound sets are a bit more work as obviously you need more voice actors but again, none of the developers working on the games is inconvenienced. Seeing as there's been a lot of requests for the EE-new voice sets to be available in both EEs, people obviously like them.
Even though neither of those two things adds "content" they're money makers that can fund the development of just that and it's something entirely optional which you won't feel you're missing out on should you choose not to buy them.
I pray to Lathander you're wrong @Silverstar. The idea of people paying for photo and voice sets gives me a similar feeling of sadness to when I hear about a serial killer on the news.
Every single photo in the world could be made into a portrait, there are even web based resizers for people who don't know how to use a photo editing program. With infinite free options why would anyone want to pay for some? Even if they did sell a portraits pack, it would be uploaded to the internet the day of the release.
You can transfer over voice sets from other games yourself, I've seen voice sets downloadable for IWD and BG made from not only the other games of the style but of character voices from many other unrelated games, and its super easy to just record your own or a friends voice or take voice clips from movies/internet/et cetera.
When I made my first full party in IWD, I had my 5 best friends design a character and record a voice pack for me so I could feel like I was playing with them (few of them were interested in playing the game, the rest couldn't afford it, and it was before multiplayer was easy so I never bothered with finding people online to play with). I can't imagine paying money to get a voice pack for a character I make would be as much fun as that, however JNPCs would be. But I suppose I will settle for JNPC mods since I highly doubt they will make any for IWDEE...
Well, consider that iPad users had to buy the portrait and the voice pack for BGEE, as well as that portrait pack for BG2EE. If they wanted them anyway.
Well, consider that iPad users had to buy the portrait and the voice pack for BGEE, as well as that portrait pack for BG2EE. If they wanted them anyway.
Again, a Forum Poll is not remotely close to acceptable data gathering. You read the part where I explained how a poll could actually be remotely effective right? Not only that but you conveniently left out the link so that if we did want to participate in the poll and vote in favor of JNPCs we have to hunt it down. To save everyone else the time here is the unofficial poll of narrowly selected participation I think @Schneidend was talking about (for those who want to participate):
By the way, it is 30% yes, 54% no, and 13% opinionless currently, making a 24% difference. However if this poll wasn't restricted to avid users of this forum who are interested in IWDEE alone then the results would be different.
Granted, forum polls are hardly adequate. We simply don't have the population to make a proper one. However, I was addressing your previous complaint was that the previous polls conducted prior to IWDEE's announcement were somehow hidden. This is a brand new poll on the front page, and JNPCs are still in the minority. If anything, I think the opposite, that on a forum like this, where appreciation of Plancescape: Torment and the Baldur's Gate franchise are quite high, the numbers would skew in favor of JNPCs, but that's clearly not what has happened. I am honestly surprised.
That's not the point, I like the story too but it would be more enjoyable with JNPCs. In fact a lot of people who like IWD, and the genre, would enjoy it more with them. If I had to guess the number of people who would like IWD with JNPCs would not only vastly outweigh the number of fans who would stop playing it if JNPCs were added but outweigh all the newer fans of the genre-style that started playing with IWD.
Because most of the people who don't like IWD are probably doing just what you said and not involving themselves in the discussions and polls of IWDEE. And because most of the people who don't want JNPCs would more than likely have liked IWD just as much if they'd played it the first time with JNPCs on top of everything else. Because even if they added JNPCs there would be absolutely no difference to the game since you could do everything identical to the way you would if it lacked them by not letting them into you're party, they're just being nostalgic and cainotophobic.
Maybe I would have liked IWD just fine with JNPCs. On the other hand, that's not what happened, and I appreciate what Black Isle was doing by not adding them. And, yes, it would make a difference to the game because, again, the approach would be different than Black Isle's approach. I want Overhaul to be in a similar frame of mind as Black Isle when they make changes, and that mindset includes not adding JNPCs.
I never believed that, the game is totally set up so it could have JNPCs, its no different from BG or other games of the genre at all, the only difference is lack of JNPCs (and options differing). Which is why I think they were being lazy and claimed it was a design to reduce hate mail from the current fans of the genre at the time IWD was released. But I acknowledged its a lot of work for Overhaul and pointed out that if it was done at all it should be done as DLC. I would enjoy having it in the base game; but for the sake of money, time, and reducing hate mail I think it would be better for them if they did it as DLC vs adding to the initial release. Keep in mind I guarantee no matter what decision any developer makes in any game, there will be some amount of hate mail (no one can make everyone happy).
How can you prove this? Everyone I knew who played the game back at its release found out about the lack of JNPCs while playing. No public announcement was made on TV or in any way that the public (as opposed to just their personal forum members or something) would hear about. And even if they did post it on the forum, generally developers work on a project for months or years before announcing it. So if they'd gotten most of the work done and it was either costing too much or taking too much time they may have decided to drop the creation of JNPCs just before those announcements.
Well, regardless of what you believe, that's what happened. Before the game was even released the devs answered a forum question. The game was never advertised to have a JNPC cast, which would have been a smart move to capitalize on fans of BG. I forget which member of Black Isle it was, but in an interview they said that early on they talked about JNPCs like Baldur's Gate and Fallout, but decided against it. Naturally, the game is "totally set up so it could have JNPCs" because, as you say, it's "no different from BG." You're right, the games both use the same engine. I don't think anybody is making the claim that IWD somehow can't implement JNPCs due to some limitation. What I am asserting is that the design of the game focused on things other than JNPCs due to their absence, and that focus made it a different animal.
Anyway, I don't need to "prove" anything. You're the one making the claim, not me.
You need to play more video games if you think they're not the same style of game. Examples of different styles of games: Dragon Age, Diablo, Warcraft, Pokemon, The Sims, FPS games, any video game based on a TV show or Movie, every game in the world besides the BG series, IWD series, NWN2 (not 1), PS:T, and perhaps a couple other. There are very very few games of this style, but IWD is definitely one of them despite the lack of JNPCs. Making a game identical to the style of another game but lacking one feature of it does not make it a different style of game. If someone made a ripoff BG and the only difference was it was in a different area of the world, year in the world, and you could only play as Human (but there were all the other races appearing in the game) instead of multiple race options, you wouldn't consider that a different style of game would you?
This is the first time I've heard someone directly claim that not having JNPCs makes it a better game, however you haven't listed a single way how it's better and I've never seen one. And don't pull out the same nonsense excuse for the argument of it being a different style of game, "because it focuses more on the combat" because it does not focus on combat any more than BG or other games of the style.
It's a different style. BG1 is narratively-focused and almost sandbox-like in its nonlinearity, whereas Icewind Dale is a linear game that stresses large-scale tactical combat. There may be similar amounts of fighting in BG, but there's a clear difference in enemy numbers, strength, and variety. Most fights in BG revolve around a single potent threat or a handful of strong enemies, while most fights in Icewind Dale have larger numbers of enemies coming from multiple directions. That's a stylistic difference.
There's not enough quests and kits for you, really? HOW are they going to add entire new areas? I would be more upset than you would be about a JNPC DLC if they made an Item DLC, as anyone can make items just like they can make their own photo and sound sets. I want them to spend NO time on things that users can easily add to, because that would be a pointless waste of time. Integrating JNPCs is not something users can easily add to the game. Plus there is already good Item mods for the game like this one: http://www.gibberlings3.net/iu_iwd/
Despite your personal preference, which I admit you probably share with many or all of the other people voting No on JNPCs, I would still bet money that more people in general have a different opinion regarding this than those who share your opinion.
First of all, there's never enough quests and kits for me. My thirst is insatiable, and eternal, like a vampire. I'll answer your second question with another question, and ask what is stopping them from adding entire new areas? Heart of Winter and Trials of the Luremaster both added entire new areas.
As for items versus JNPC when it comes to modding, I'd prefer the opposite. I want the community to be responsible for JNPCs if they want to see them. I really don't care if it's harder or easier. I tend to like more character mods than item mods. The item mods always strike me as shoddy, unbalanced, or do or change something I don't like that ruins the whole mod for me. To this day I've never downloaded a mod that added a bunch of new items or changed a bunch of original items, but I've downloaded numerous NPC mods.
Take easy @Darek_Death, i share your sentiment toward Joinable NPCs fiercely, but don't let your feelings talk freely for you when debating with someone else. I would advice care in avoid direct arguments as "you this, said this, stated this, want this, is this..." i walked this path in the past, it's a dark one to follow.
@Schneidend, i had no doubt my pool would result in more results for "no" than "yes", this forum has 2 dominant characteristics, (i) nostalgia tend to take priority above anything else and (ii) normally when the devs state something, 30% of the forum follow quickly that line of thought, and raise this % to 50 if they state officially.
Sometime change is good, maybe even without these 2 factors i would still get an negative answer, that would be perfectly possible, but i have little doubt that they're the main point of the "no" answers.
So one could ask, why make the pool them? To discredit the very idea you defend? Well, i have a lot of "no" there, surelly. BUT, in 2 days i have a lot of "yes" also.
The idea of the pool isn't to confront, there's no need to win the % to define the course, all i intended to do do was to give the devs a glimpse of their potential market among the "yes", and in 2 days we got 41 "yes" votes, how much can we got in 1 week, or month? That was my point.
The no ppl will not give up the game if NPC DLCs are made, they would need to be very infantile to do that !
Front page? It's hidden in the middle of the first page of threads in an IWDEE section of a BG forum. Not only has IWDEE not been announced anywhere but the forum excluding everyone who doesn't use the forum, but also people on the forum who have no interest in IWD thus more than likely won't be viewing this section of the forum.
because, again, the approach would be different than Black Isle's approach. I want Overhaul to be in a similar frame of mind as Black Isle when they make changes, and that mindset includes not adding JNPCs.
The part I'm stuck on is that I don't understand the "frame of mind" thing. I mean I think the reason I'm not following you is that I can't imagine the "frame of mind" of Black Isle. Probably stemming from the fact that I don't see a difference between IWD and BG, so I can't imagine how they thought it would change the game simply by not adding JNPCs. My best guess to their frame of mind is they were thinking a combination of the BG style and strategy games like WC and SC, but then added 0 elements from strategy games and left the battle system pretty much exactly the same as in BG.
Fallout had JNPCs? I played FO3 for PS3 first, and there were no JNPCs. I got the first two games for PC (the Mac versions) and tried to play FO1 and didn't see any JNPCs but I couldn't tolerate how old the graphics were and quit not far in. I haven't played a game of that quality since I was around 5 at most. I had the same issue when I decided to play all the FR video games starting with PoR for NES, it was alright but I couldn't play it long because of the graphics, gave up on that idea then and there.
You're right, the games both use the same engine. I don't think anybody is making the claim that IWD somehow can't implement JNPCs due to some limitation.
Nor was I referring to that. I was talking about the flow of the story and game. It still felt like I'd end up meeting JNPCs through my entire first play through, though I stopped expecting to meet some once I got half way through the game. And you talk about some other focus but I don't see it, it doesn't seem superior to BG in any aspect. It felt more like they just were able to spend less time on it, versus spending it on another area.
It's a different style. BG1 is narratively-focused and almost sandbox-like in its nonlinearity, whereas Icewind Dale is a linear game that stresses large-scale tactical combat. There may be similar amounts of fighting in BG, but there's a clear difference in enemy numbers, strength, and variety. Most fights in BG revolve around a single potent threat or a handful of strong enemies, while most fights in Icewind Dale have larger numbers of enemies coming from multiple directions. That's a stylistic difference.
I felt the story and NPC interactions were not lacking in IWD, so I would not say it is less narratively-focused than BG. "Linear" depends on where you draw the line, as all video games are linear compared to the old tabletop games. BG was only nonlinear to a point it still had a main story line, which you could not complete the game without completing, making it as linear as IWD.
In both BG and IWD you can control no more than 6 characters. In both games you can complete the game with 1 character, as I did in IWD my first ever play through since I didn't know it wasn't going to have JNPCs. So both have an equal scale of tactical combat, if anything due to the larger areas and higher number of areas BG is a larger scale for tactical combat.
I'll answer your second question with another question, and ask what is stopping them from adding entire new areas? Heart of Winter and Trials of the Luremaster both added entire new areas.
Because that's against their contract isn't it? We're talking the difference between a mod and an expansion pack.
I tend to like more character mods than item mods. The item mods always strike me as shoddy, unbalanced, or do or change something I don't like that ruins the whole mod for me. To this day I've never downloaded a mod that added a bunch of new items or changed a bunch of original items, but I've downloaded numerous NPC mods.
Most people seem to dislike the character mods. But if that's the case with you then why don't make your own custom items? Its easy. When I make my own custom items I start with the idea of where it would be in the game, think up a lore for it so to no what kind of item and abilities it would have, then design it to be no stronger than the best item obtainable at that point of the game. Which imho is the best method for making good custom items.
Take easy @Darek_Death, i share your sentiment toward Joinable NPCs fiercely, but don't let your feelings talk freely for you when debating with someone else. I would advice care in avoid direct arguments as "you this, said this, stated this, want this, is this..." i walked this path in the past, it's a dark one to follow.
Hmm... I will try to remember that. I am actually new to the whole forum thing so I'm surprised I'm not making mistakes more often.
The difference of linearity between IWD and BG/BG2 is substantial. Yes, there is a main quest to complete in BG/BG2, but you can do a lot of side quests before having to progress through the main quest. I mean, you could probably reach level cap before even doing Nashkel mines if you tried hard enough.
Meanwhile, in IWD, the only way to progress is to do the main quest. There aren't many side-quests, and what side-quests you can do usually lead to an area that you're already going to for the main quest.
An example is: Gorion tells Charname that if they're to become separated that Charname should go to the Friendly Arm Inn. Instead of doing that, the player controlling Charname decides to explore most of the World Map because in BG you've got a lot more freedom.
Also, in BG2 you don't have to give up all your money right away to go save Imoen/hunt down Irenicus. You can stay on the mainland and do the quests there, and in whatever particular order you want to.
Now, when it comes to IWD, Hrothgar says to clear out a cave. You have to clear out the cave. You can't decline because doing so keeps you in Easthaven. Hrothgar asks you to go to Kuldahar with them, you can't decline because that'll keep you in Easthaven. Arundel tells you to clear out the Vale of Shadows, can't decline him, so you have to go to Vale of Shadows.
When it comes to linearity, BG is far from linear, while in IWD you can't explore anything outside of the scope of the main quest, and sometimes you can't even go back to a past area, aka Easthaven, Lonelywood, etc.
The difference of linearity between IWD and BG/BG2 is substantial. Yes, there is a main quest to complete in BG/BG2, but you can do a lot of side quests before having to progress through the main quest. I mean, you could probably reach level cap before even doing Nashkel mines if you tried hard enough.
Meanwhile, in IWD, the only way to progress is to do the main quest. There aren't many side-quests, and what side-quests you can do usually lead to an area that you're already going to for the main quest.
An example is: Gorion tells Charname that if they're to become separated that Charname should go to the Friendly Arm Inn. Instead of doing that, the player controlling Charname decides to explore most of the World Map because in BG you've got a lot more freedom.
Also, in BG2 you don't have to give up all your money right away to go save Imoen/hunt down Irenicus. You can stay on the mainland and do the quests there, and in whatever particular order you want to.
Now, when it comes to IWD, Hrothgar says to clear out a cave. You have to clear out the cave. You can't decline because doing so keeps you in Easthaven. Hrothgar asks you to go to Kuldahar with them, you can't decline because that'll keep you in Easthaven. Arundel tells you to clear out the Vale of Shadows, can't decline him, so you have to go to Vale of Shadows.
When it comes to linearity, BG is far from linear, while in IWD you can't explore anything outside of the scope of the main quest, and sometimes you can't even go back to a past area, aka Easthaven, Lonelywood, etc.
Not trying to depreciate the work of the old devs or something like that, but... the linear aspect of IWD was one of the main aspects of the game that make me dislike it. I have a love/hate relationship with IWD:EE and the linear aspect of the game reveals a facet of the game that i totally hate and despise.
I don't give much credit to any linear game that try call itself an RPG. Of course IWD had other aspects that balanced the game, but still... invoke one of the main flaws of the game as an argument don't sound much reasonable to me, but then, someone can think in that as something good, in my mind this would be unbeliavable.
Front page? It's hidden in the middle of the first page of threads in an IWDEE section of a BG forum. Not only has IWDEE not been announced anywhere but the forum excluding everyone who doesn't use the forum, but also people on the forum who have no interest in IWD thus more than likely won't be viewing this section of the forum.
There's been article's been on gaming news sites like Kotaku, it was announced at PAX, and it has its own web page. It's been announced outside the forum.
The part I'm stuck on is that I don't understand the "frame of mind" thing. I mean I think the reason I'm not following you is that I can't imagine the "frame of mind" of Black Isle. Probably stemming from the fact that I don't see a difference between IWD and BG, so I can't imagine how they thought it would change the game simply by not adding JNPCs. My best guess to their frame of mind is they were thinking a combination of the BG style and strategy games like WC and SC, but then added 0 elements from strategy games and left the battle system pretty much exactly the same as in BG.
Design philosophy. You go into a project with a specific goal in mind. It informs every decision you make, even if only in subtle ways. Icewind Dale has bigger, tougher battles, more powerful items to help you face those threats, its areas have a more set-piece feel than Baldur's Gate's more open areas, and is more intended to replicate a dungeon crawl-style campaign than Baldur's Gate's sprawling epic adventure of self-discovery.
Fallout had JNPCs? I played FO3 for PS3 first, and there were no JNPCs. I got the first two games for PC (the Mac versions) and tried to play FO1 and didn't see any JNPCs but I couldn't tolerate how old the graphics were and quit not far in. I haven't played a game of that quality since I was around 5 at most. I had the same issue when I decided to play all the FR video games starting with PoR for NES, it was alright but I couldn't play it long because of the graphics, gave up on that idea then and there.
Fallout 3 had a handful of companions, yes. Jericho in Megaton will join you if you're Evil and pay him 1000 caps. You can buy a slave from Paradise Falls. I forget her name but she's quite skilled with melee weapons. You also could find Dogmeat, a dog. Later on, Fawkes the super mutant could join you. Every Fallout game has followers that can join you. They just aren't as plentiful or obvious as the Infinity Engine games. My response below about tactical combat delves further into this.
I felt the story and NPC interactions were not lacking in IWD, so I would not say it is less narratively-focused than BG. "Linear" depends on where you draw the line, as all video games are linear compared to the old tabletop games. BG was only nonlinear to a point it still had a main story line, which you could not complete the game without completing, making it as linear as IWD.
In both BG and IWD you can control no more than 6 characters. In both games you can complete the game with 1 character, as I did in IWD my first ever play through since I didn't know it wasn't going to have JNPCs. So both have an equal scale of tactical combat, if anything due to the larger areas and higher number of areas BG is a larger scale for tactical combat.
Well, obviously, games have a beginning and an end, like anything else. There still exists a gradient of linearity, and Baldur's Gate allowing you to do most of its quests in any order you want makes it less linear than IWD.
By tactical combat I mean the size of the encounters, how the terrain plays a factor, etc. Like I said, Baldur's Gate mostly pits you against smaller groups of individually strong foes, with the occasional big battle such as fighting the bandit camp. Meanwhile, in IWD, fighting large, varied groups of enemies happens a lot more often. The penultimate room in Kresselack's tomb, for instance, throws large group of different kinds of undead, including a wizard, at you. While the game itself doesn't necessarily have more strategic mechanics involved, as you say - although I consider encouraging you to completely design your own party a very strategic aspect of the game, as evidenced by the thread on party setups - a fight like that is virtually unheard of in BG while it is almost the norm in Icewind Dale.
Most people seem to dislike the character mods. But if that's the case with you then why don't make your own custom items? Its easy. When I make my own custom items I start with the idea of where it would be in the game, think up a lore for it so to no what kind of item and abilities it would have, then design it to be no stronger than the best item obtainable at that point of the game. Which imho is the best method for making good custom items.
There's not a huge number of really good character mods, but the ones that are great really stand out. For BG2, Tashia and Fade are really great. For BG1, the NPC Project adds romances for Branwen, Shar-Teel, and Dynaheir. I played the Shar-Teel one and really enjoyed it.
But, I don't like designing items for myself very much. I do design items all the time when I DM my D&D campaign, but that's for my players' benefit, not mine. As a player, I like to be a bit more hands-off with that sort of thing. Even when a DM wants to tailor-make something for me in an upcoming story arc, I don't want to have too much input other than perhaps appearance. I might help if they're trying to work out a custom ability the item has, because I'm probably the most well-versed in such things in my group, but that's about it. Dolling up items for myself just wouldn't be fun. I might sit down and hash out a mod for others to use one day. I was working on one for Fallout: New Vegas, but never finished it.
But, no, I don't have an interest in making a mod right now. IWDEE is going to have new items as-is, so I am satisfied with that for now. Are you planning on making an NPC mod?
One of the points I was trying to make, though not quite so bluntly. :P
I certainly don't intend to quit or not buy IWD if DLC JNPCs are made. I would simply rather they weren't made. I'd probably get them if they were released. I'd likely play any NPC mods released eventually.
just like they can make their own photo and sound sets. I want them to spend NO time on things that users can easily add to, because that would be a pointless waste of time.
Sorry to hack apart your wall of text (I did read all of it though, honest!) but I actually think that's some of the most sensible downloadable content they can add initially, assuming ID gets any at all. A portrait pack is easy money, it requires no "development" time. Once the artist hands over the finished artwork it only takes a few minutes to put it up in the online store thingie. Judging by comments about the portraits on these forums they'll probably sell reasonably well too assuming the price isn't silly.
Sound sets are a bit more work as obviously you need more voice actors but again, none of the developers working on the games is inconvenienced. Seeing as there's been a lot of requests for the EE-new voice sets to be available in both EEs, people obviously like them.
Even though neither of those two things adds "content" they're money makers that can fund the development of just that and it's something entirely optional which you won't feel you're missing out on should you choose not to buy them.
If (hopefully when), they make companions that would probably necessitate at least 6 new portraits (the artist could throw in a few extra). That's a dlc portrait pack right there - sell the companions to people who want them and their portraits to the people who don't.
Like wise, they'd need voice actors to do companion voice sets but, they could easily make additional player voice sets from them - sell the companions to people who want them and their voice sets to the people who don't.
I pray to Lathander you're wrong Silverstar. The idea of people paying for photo and voice sets gives me a similar feeling of sadness to when I hear about a serial killer on the news.
I suddenly find it incredibly hard to take anything you say seriously. If people spending money on virtual goods is as bad as a serial killer.... o.O
As for the rest of your post, yes, you can make your own character customization stuff. Yes, it is more enjoyable than buying it. This is our opinion however and there's bound to be tons of people who does not share it. And sure, anything Beamdog releases can be uploaded by someone and pirated at infinitum. That can be applied to anything ever though and it doesn't (nor should it) stop people from creating and selling their merchandise.
Pretty big fact you've overlooked though; there allready are portrait and voice sets available as paid downloadable content. The tablet versions of the games aren't quite as drag-and-drop-customizable apparently and thus it's quite understandable for tablet users to buy these packs. Now I don't have the sales numbers, obviously, but considering how they didn't drop this practice after the first BG it seems likely that it's worthwhile.
Fallout 3 had joinable NPC's but instead they just called them companions.
Now that you mention it, I did have a dog and I could have like a bodyguard but only one at a time. I didn't make the connection in my head because they're such a different kind of JNPC. You can't even control them they just follow you around and try to kill things that attack you. I suppose even in FPS games with squads in single player they're technically JNPCs. Though whenever I reference it here I only had the style of JNPC used in BG in mind.
The difference of linearity between IWD and BG/BG2 is substantial. Yes, there is a main quest to complete in BG/BG2, but you can do a lot of side quests before having to progress through the main quest. I mean, you could probably reach level cap before even doing Nashkel mines if you tried hard enough.
To me that just translates to "longer game" as I always complete everything possible to complete in every game I play. There weren't many but there were some side-quests in IWD which you mentioned yourself, if they'd just spent a few more months throwing in more side quests would that have made it a different style of game it your mind? Having more or less of the same thing doesn't make one game a different style from another.
As for your points on being able to do side quests in whatever order you want in BG/BG2; there is still an order within a single side quest and limited numbers of options to complete a side quest. Also there is still a limit to the content in the game. If you complete all the side quests available you're forced to do the next step in the main quest, then additional side quests might become available.
But if you drew a map of your directions throughout the game it would still stretch primarily in one direction, like a tree. A tree with more branches is still a tree. Like I said every single video game is linear to some extent, some have more options than others but it still doesn't compare to a tabletop game of which you have as much freedom as you do in real life, sometimes more depending on the genre and character species. And I won't even go into the limited choices for what you can say in particular situations and other limitations of video games.
There's been article's been on gaming news sites like Kotaku, it was announced at PAX, and it has its own web page. It's been announced outside the forum.
@Kamuizin 's poll about whether JNPCs should be included in IWDEE is not in those places.
Design philosophy. You go into a project with a specific goal in mind. It informs every decision you make, even if only in subtle ways. Icewind Dale has bigger, tougher battles, more powerful items to help you face those threats, its areas have a more set-piece feel than Baldur's Gate's more open areas, and is more intended to replicate a dungeon crawl-style campaign than Baldur's Gate's sprawling epic adventure of self-discovery.
I don't know if I noticed all that, maybe I noticed it was a little harder but I thought I only felt that way because I soloed it my first play through. That might be why I'm not seeing where you're coming from here, I didn't notice any of the things you're thinking of when you talk about it.
By tactical combat I mean the size of the encounters, how the terrain plays a factor, et cetera...
Yeah I think I didn't notice any strategic difference in all that because I can solo both BG and IWD as a Fighter applying the strategy of "Me tough, me smash" and get through it all without having to think about strategy whatsoever, which is why I consider IWD a game that does not focus on strategy.
I don't believe it is. Unlike with BGEE, they don't have Bioware looking over their shoulder on this one.
Even if they can, I don't know why they would create an expansion pack for such an old game. This departments thing seems to be revamping old games not making new game packs. And I don't know why anyone would be interested in them making an IWD expansion pack anyway, I'd much rather see a PSTEE or BG3.
Though I have some limited computer programming experience and experience with minor modifications to existing systems, I have no idea how to make an NPC mod. I don't know if I'd be good at it anyway.
I certainly don't intend to quit or not buy IWD if DLC JNPCs are made. I would simply rather they weren't made. I'd probably get them if they were released. I'd likely play any NPC mods released eventually.
So why should they not be made then? Just to make thousands of people sad? If you think they're going to spend time on other things if they don't make a JNPC DLC, you're probably wrong. Look at their other EEs, they don't have any DLC except for JNPCs, and everything else they added they added through patches which they will do with IWDEE regardless of whether they make some JNPC DLCs. But again, I really don't expect that they will make any no matter what people say because it comes down to what the devs decide amongst themselves and they've already decided so the argument is kind of pointless.
I suddenly find it incredibly hard to take anything you say seriously. If people spending money on virtual goods is as bad as a serial killer.... o.O
Have you never met a man with traditional Jewish values before? Its somewhat offensive that you can't take anything I say seriously because I have a different set of values than you do. Further more, I never said "people spending money on virtual goods is as bad as a serial killer" obviously the whole game is a virtual good in the first place, and buying computer software is not remotely comparable to murder. I was referring to the fact that a person who would buy something they could easily make themselves (portraits and sound sets) shows a lack of character and poor sense of value and it's disheartening to me to think that people nowadays have become so.
It's not illegal to download photos off the internet and use them for personal use. It is illegal to pirate say a video game or movie or something. That's the difference.
Pretty big fact you've overlooked though; there allready are portrait and voice sets available as paid downloadable content. The tablet versions of the games aren't quite as drag-and-drop-customizable apparently and thus it's quite understandable for tablet users to buy these packs. Now I don't have the sales numbers, obviously, but considering how they didn't drop this practice after the first BG it seems likely that it's worthwhile.
Okay yeah I did overlook that, since I've never looked at the mobile versions of the game. But I would much rather they invest their time to make it easy to add your own portraits and sound sets rather than selling packs, which is exaction. Similar to an outside company cutting off a towns wood supply so they can monopolize on wood made merchandise sales, its not right.
Once again, per their contract for BGEE & BG2EE, Beamdog was specifically barred from adding any new content not directly associated with the new NPCs. As far as we know, they may not be under similar obligations for IWDEE.
I think @Schneidend asked if Beamdog acquired the rights to IWD outright, so that they wouldn't get interference from WotC, but I don't think he ever got an answer.
Once again, per their contract for BGEE & BG2EE, Beamdog was specifically barred from adding any new content not directly associated with the new NPCs. As far as we know, they may not be under similar obligations for IWDEE.
Can't point the source, but i'm pretty sure that there's no restriction to the enhancement of IWD.
Not all the walls are worth the effort. In the face of futility it is often better to just smile, nod your head and move on. Let lost causes lie in peace.
Not all the walls are worth the effort. In the face of futility it is often better to just smile, nod your head and move on. Let lost causes lie in peace.
in the context of this discussion, i found this statement a bit offensive, maybe it's just me being too pussy and all, but i don't see this Thread as worthless. Lost cause is a very rigid statement to use, and we don't know the tomorrow to use an so unflexible statement as this one.
We have atm an pool with 51% (57 votes) of ppl rejecting the Beamdog NPC idea against an 36% (41 votes) of people that want Beamdog NPCs.
I started this thread as a question, and it developed this much, i believe this is very much valid to make this discussion important to the community (no matter if you support or not the idea).
Not all the walls are worth the effort. In the face of futility it is often better to just smile, nod your head and move on. Let lost causes lie in peace.
in the context of this discussion, i found this statement a bit offensive, maybe it's just me being too pussy and all, but i don't see this Thread as worthless.
Not referring to the thread itself or most of the people in it. There are particular posts that I feel it's futile responding to though as it only seems to cause an infinite loop. Since the forum doesn't allow us to ignore spesific users the only things we can do is scroll past their posts and stop responding to them.
That's the problem though: NPCs are very dependant on the writer, and tastes in writing are highly subjective. I much preferred the writing on the first KOTOR, you didn't. It wasn't that either was "better written", the fact us, our tastes are different. You will get that with any added NPCs - some people will like them, but just as many will hate them. It's a lot of work for a zero sum outcome.
Which is exactly why NPCs, if ever added to the official game, would have to come in a pack of 10 or more, to make sure that you could fill up your party without being stuffed with characters that only annoy you.
You would also need a bunch of different writers. 10 NPCs from a writer you didn't like is just 10 annoying NPCs.
Eh, this is not really true. Some writers/artists do great work on one project, and horrendous on another. People love Frank Miller as a comic writer, but All-Star Batman & Robin was universally panned. People loved the original trilogy, but George Lucas got destroyed for The Phantom Menace. I didn't really dig Pulp Fiction or Kill Bill, but find Reservoir Dogs to be incredibly enjoyable and liked Inglourious Basterds too.
That's the problem though: NPCs are very dependant on the writer, and tastes in writing are highly subjective. I much preferred the writing on the first KOTOR, you didn't. It wasn't that either was "better written", the fact us, our tastes are different. You will get that with any added NPCs - some people will like them, but just as many will hate them. It's a lot of work for a zero sum outcome.
Which is exactly why NPCs, if ever added to the official game, would have to come in a pack of 10 or more, to make sure that you could fill up your party without being stuffed with characters that only annoy you.
You would also need a bunch of different writers. 10 NPCs from a writer you didn't like is just 10 annoying NPCs.
Eh, this is not really true. Some writers/artists do great work on one project, and horrendous on another. People love Frank Miller as a comic writer, but All-Star Batman & Robin was universally panned. People loved the original trilogy, but George Lucas got destroyed for The Phantom Menace. I didn't really dig Pulp Fiction or Kill Bill, but find Reservoir Dogs to be incredibly enjoyable and liked Inglourious Basterds too.
Sometimes things click, other times they don't.
Hey! I liked phantom menance! the past triology wasn't so bad (as will be when disney revive Darth Vader for an 7° movie of Star Wars as the rumor say).
@kamuizin I wouldn't say it was great, but I agree the movie wasn't nearly as bad as they say. I actually kinda enjoyed Jar Jar Binks in small quantities (the key word being "small"). I actually really enjoy the way he says "how rude".
There is one thing Iiked about Episodes I-III. The scene where we first see Anakin as Darth Vader. I'll never forget the Emperor's "Lord Vader rise" line.
About the new trilogy I will reserve my judgment for after release. I never trust rumors about movies, mainly if it's a really expected one
Anyway we're derailing this thread. If people wish to go on talking about Star Wars' past, present and future, I'll split the comments into a new thread.
That's the problem though: NPCs are very dependant on the writer, and tastes in writing are highly subjective. I much preferred the writing on the first KOTOR, you didn't. It wasn't that either was "better written", the fact us, our tastes are different. You will get that with any added NPCs - some people will like them, but just as many will hate them. It's a lot of work for a zero sum outcome.
Which is exactly why NPCs, if ever added to the official game, would have to come in a pack of 10 or more, to make sure that you could fill up your party without being stuffed with characters that only annoy you.
You would also need a bunch of different writers. 10 NPCs from a writer you didn't like is just 10 annoying NPCs.
Eh, this is not really true. Some writers/artists do great work on one project, and horrendous on another. People love Frank Miller as a comic writer, but All-Star Batman & Robin was universally panned. People loved the original trilogy, but George Lucas got destroyed for The Phantom Menace. I didn't really dig Pulp Fiction or Kill Bill, but find Reservoir Dogs to be incredibly enjoyable and liked Inglourious Basterds too.
Sometimes things click, other times they don't.
Yes, all writers have good days and bad days. But some writers you really hate ALL THE TIME (such as whoever writes Dragon Age in my case). Hence, multiple community created mods would give a better choice than "official" content.
What I would prefer though are a bunch of expanded voice sets, with lots of location and situation triggered comments.
I pray to Lathander you're wrong @Silverstar. The idea of people paying for photo and voice sets gives me a similar feeling of sadness to when I hear about a serial killer on the news.
Ummm … Voice acting is a developed skill, a skilled labor, in economic terms. Voice actors should probably, I dunno, get paid for what they do.
Comments
I think a lot of people who like IWD and don't want NPCs like the story just fine. If somebody doesn't like IWD, maybe they just shouldn't worry about it and should not buy it?
There's the resources argument, which does have merit with a dev team as small as Overhaul. It'd be a lot of work, which means less work goes into other things.
Also, the original IWD was developed to intentionally not include NPCs. That's a mindset, a philosophy, that informed Black Isle's design and development of the game. I want Overhaul to share that mindset when they approach IWD and later IWD2. Eschew JNPCs in favor of focusing entirely on atmosphere, music, sound, gameplay mechanics, encounter design, level design, etc.
As I mentioned above, JNPCs were left out intentionally. It was not an intended feature of the game, because early on Black Isle decided that there would be no JNPCs. Black Isle forum members asked if Icewind Dale would have JNPCs, and the devs responded in the negative. They were not forgotten and their lack of inclusion isn't laziness. IWD is a different style of game, and it is richer for it, as I explained above. That sounds like 3 DLC packs that aren't new quests, areas, items, kits, etc., and therefore I'm not interested.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/34465/plebiscite-for-joinable-npcs-this-doesnt-compels-the-devs/p1
By the way, it is 30% yes, 54% no, and 13% opinionless currently, making a 24% difference. However if this poll wasn't restricted to avid users of this forum who are interested in IWDEE alone then the results would be different.
That's not the point, I like the story too but it would be more enjoyable with JNPCs. In fact a lot of people who like IWD, and the genre, would enjoy it more with them. If I had to guess the number of people who would like IWD with JNPCs would not only vastly outweigh the number of fans who would stop playing it if JNPCs were added but outweigh all the newer fans of the genre-style that started playing with IWD.
Because most of the people who don't like IWD are probably doing just what you said and not involving themselves in the discussions and polls of IWDEE. And because most of the people who don't want JNPCs would more than likely have liked IWD just as much if they'd played it the first time with JNPCs on top of everything else. Because even if they added JNPCs there would be absolutely no difference to the game since you could do everything identical to the way you would if it lacked them by not letting them into you're party, they're just being nostalgic and cainotophobic.
I never believed that, the game is totally set up so it could have JNPCs, its no different from BG or other games of the genre at all, the only difference is lack of JNPCs (and options differing). Which is why I think they were being lazy and claimed it was a design to reduce hate mail from the current fans of the genre at the time IWD was released. But I acknowledged its a lot of work for Overhaul and pointed out that if it was done at all it should be done as DLC. I would enjoy having it in the base game; but for the sake of money, time, and reducing hate mail I think it would be better for them if they did it as DLC vs adding to the initial release. Keep in mind I guarantee no matter what decision any developer makes in any game, there will be some amount of hate mail (no one can make everyone happy).
How can you prove this? Everyone I knew who played the game back at its release found out about the lack of JNPCs while playing. No public announcement was made on TV or in any way that the public (as opposed to just their personal forum members or something) would hear about. And even if they did post it on the forum, generally developers work on a project for months or years before announcing it. So if they'd gotten most of the work done and it was either costing too much or taking too much time they may have decided to drop the creation of JNPCs just before those announcements. You need to play more video games if you think they're not the same style of game. Examples of different styles of games: Dragon Age, Diablo, Warcraft, Pokemon, The Sims, FPS games, any video game based on a TV show or Movie, every game in the world besides the BG series, IWD series, NWN2 (not 1), PS:T, and perhaps a couple other. There are very very few games of this style, but IWD is definitely one of them despite the lack of JNPCs. Making a game identical to the style of another game but lacking one feature of it does not make it a different style of game. If someone made a ripoff BG and the only difference was it was in a different area of the world, year in the world, and you could only play as Human (but there were all the other races appearing in the game) instead of multiple race options, you wouldn't consider that a different style of game would you?
This is the first time I've heard someone directly claim that not having JNPCs makes it a better game, however you haven't listed a single way how it's better and I've never seen one. And don't pull out the same nonsense excuse for the argument of it being a different style of game, "because it focuses more on the combat" because it does not focus on combat any more than BG or other games of the style.
There's not enough quests and kits for you, really? HOW are they going to add entire new areas? I would be more upset than you would be about a JNPC DLC if they made an Item DLC, as anyone can make items just like they can make their own photo and sound sets. I want them to spend NO time on things that users can easily add to, because that would be a pointless waste of time. Integrating JNPCs is not something users can easily add to the game. Plus there is already good Item mods for the game like this one: http://www.gibberlings3.net/iu_iwd/
View this thread for information on making custom items, when I did it back in the day I used DLTCEP
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/17518/creating-a-custom-item-help-an-aspiring-modder
Despite your personal preference, which I admit you probably share with many or all of the other people voting No on JNPCs, I would still bet money that more people in general have a different opinion regarding this than those who share your opinion.
Sound sets are a bit more work as obviously you need more voice actors but again, none of the developers working on the games is inconvenienced. Seeing as there's been a lot of requests for the EE-new voice sets to be available in both EEs, people obviously like them.
Even though neither of those two things adds "content" they're money makers that can fund the development of just that and it's something entirely optional which you won't feel you're missing out on should you choose not to buy them.
Every single photo in the world could be made into a portrait, there are even web based resizers for people who don't know how to use a photo editing program. With infinite free options why would anyone want to pay for some? Even if they did sell a portraits pack, it would be uploaded to the internet the day of the release.
You can transfer over voice sets from other games yourself, I've seen voice sets downloadable for IWD and BG made from not only the other games of the style but of character voices from many other unrelated games, and its super easy to just record your own or a friends voice or take voice clips from movies/internet/et cetera.
When I made my first full party in IWD, I had my 5 best friends design a character and record a voice pack for me so I could feel like I was playing with them (few of them were interested in playing the game, the rest couldn't afford it, and it was before multiplayer was easy so I never bothered with finding people online to play with). I can't imagine paying money to get a voice pack for a character I make would be as much fun as that, however JNPCs would be. But I suppose I will settle for JNPC mods since I highly doubt they will make any for IWDEE...
Well, regardless of what you believe, that's what happened. Before the game was even released the devs answered a forum question. The game was never advertised to have a JNPC cast, which would have been a smart move to capitalize on fans of BG. I forget which member of Black Isle it was, but in an interview they said that early on they talked about JNPCs like Baldur's Gate and Fallout, but decided against it. Naturally, the game is "totally set up so it could have JNPCs" because, as you say, it's "no different from BG." You're right, the games both use the same engine. I don't think anybody is making the claim that IWD somehow can't implement JNPCs due to some limitation. What I am asserting is that the design of the game focused on things other than JNPCs due to their absence, and that focus made it a different animal.
Anyway, I don't need to "prove" anything. You're the one making the claim, not me.
It's a different style. BG1 is narratively-focused and almost sandbox-like in its nonlinearity, whereas Icewind Dale is a linear game that stresses large-scale tactical combat. There may be similar amounts of fighting in BG, but there's a clear difference in enemy numbers, strength, and variety. Most fights in BG revolve around a single potent threat or a handful of strong enemies, while most fights in Icewind Dale have larger numbers of enemies coming from multiple directions. That's a stylistic difference. First of all, there's never enough quests and kits for me. My thirst is insatiable, and eternal, like a vampire. I'll answer your second question with another question, and ask what is stopping them from adding entire new areas? Heart of Winter and Trials of the Luremaster both added entire new areas.
As for items versus JNPC when it comes to modding, I'd prefer the opposite. I want the community to be responsible for JNPCs if they want to see them. I really don't care if it's harder or easier. I tend to like more character mods than item mods. The item mods always strike me as shoddy, unbalanced, or do or change something I don't like that ruins the whole mod for me. To this day I've never downloaded a mod that added a bunch of new items or changed a bunch of original items, but I've downloaded numerous NPC mods.
@Schneidend, i had no doubt my pool would result in more results for "no" than "yes", this forum has 2 dominant characteristics, (i) nostalgia tend to take priority above anything else and (ii) normally when the devs state something, 30% of the forum follow quickly that line of thought, and raise this % to 50 if they state officially.
Sometime change is good, maybe even without these 2 factors i would still get an negative answer, that would be perfectly possible, but i have little doubt that they're the main point of the "no" answers.
So one could ask, why make the pool them? To discredit the very idea you defend? Well, i have a lot of "no" there, surelly. BUT, in 2 days i have a lot of "yes" also.
The idea of the pool isn't to confront, there's no need to win the % to define the course, all i intended to do do was to give the devs a glimpse of their potential market among the "yes", and in 2 days we got 41 "yes" votes, how much can we got in 1 week, or month? That was my point.
The no ppl will not give up the game if NPC DLCs are made, they would need to be very infantile to do that
The part I'm stuck on is that I don't understand the "frame of mind" thing. I mean I think the reason I'm not following you is that I can't imagine the "frame of mind" of Black Isle. Probably stemming from the fact that I don't see a difference between IWD and BG, so I can't imagine how they thought it would change the game simply by not adding JNPCs. My best guess to their frame of mind is they were thinking a combination of the BG style and strategy games like WC and SC, but then added 0 elements from strategy games and left the battle system pretty much exactly the same as in BG.
Fallout had JNPCs? I played FO3 for PS3 first, and there were no JNPCs. I got the first two games for PC (the Mac versions) and tried to play FO1 and didn't see any JNPCs but I couldn't tolerate how old the graphics were and quit not far in. I haven't played a game of that quality since I was around 5 at most. I had the same issue when I decided to play all the FR video games starting with PoR for NES, it was alright but I couldn't play it long because of the graphics, gave up on that idea then and there.
Nor was I referring to that. I was talking about the flow of the story and game. It still felt like I'd end up meeting JNPCs through my entire first play through, though I stopped expecting to meet some once I got half way through the game. And you talk about some other focus but I don't see it, it doesn't seem superior to BG in any aspect. It felt more like they just were able to spend less time on it, versus spending it on another area.
I felt the story and NPC interactions were not lacking in IWD, so I would not say it is less narratively-focused than BG. "Linear" depends on where you draw the line, as all video games are linear compared to the old tabletop games. BG was only nonlinear to a point it still had a main story line, which you could not complete the game without completing, making it as linear as IWD.
In both BG and IWD you can control no more than 6 characters. In both games you can complete the game with 1 character, as I did in IWD my first ever play through since I didn't know it wasn't going to have JNPCs. So both have an equal scale of tactical combat, if anything due to the larger areas and higher number of areas BG is a larger scale for tactical combat.
Hahaha
Because that's against their contract isn't it? We're talking the difference between a mod and an expansion pack. Most people seem to dislike the character mods. But if that's the case with you then why don't make your own custom items? Its easy. When I make my own custom items I start with the idea of where it would be in the game, think up a lore for it so to no what kind of item and abilities it would have, then design it to be no stronger than the best item obtainable at that point of the game. Which imho is the best method for making good custom items.
Hmm... I will try to remember that. I am actually new to the whole forum thing so I'm surprised I'm not making mistakes more often.
One of the points I was trying to make, though not quite so bluntly. :P
Meanwhile, in IWD, the only way to progress is to do the main quest. There aren't many side-quests, and what side-quests you can do usually lead to an area that you're already going to for the main quest.
An example is: Gorion tells Charname that if they're to become separated that Charname should go to the Friendly Arm Inn. Instead of doing that, the player controlling Charname decides to explore most of the World Map because in BG you've got a lot more freedom.
Also, in BG2 you don't have to give up all your money right away to go save Imoen/hunt down Irenicus. You can stay on the mainland and do the quests there, and in whatever particular order you want to.
Now, when it comes to IWD, Hrothgar says to clear out a cave. You have to clear out the cave. You can't decline because doing so keeps you in Easthaven. Hrothgar asks you to go to Kuldahar with them, you can't decline because that'll keep you in Easthaven. Arundel tells you to clear out the Vale of Shadows, can't decline him, so you have to go to Vale of Shadows.
When it comes to linearity, BG is far from linear, while in IWD you can't explore anything outside of the scope of the main quest, and sometimes you can't even go back to a past area, aka Easthaven, Lonelywood, etc.
I don't give much credit to any linear game that try call itself an RPG. Of course IWD had other aspects that balanced the game, but still... invoke one of the main flaws of the game as an argument don't sound much reasonable to me, but then, someone can think in that as something good, in my mind this would be unbeliavable.
Design philosophy. You go into a project with a specific goal in mind. It informs every decision you make, even if only in subtle ways. Icewind Dale has bigger, tougher battles, more powerful items to help you face those threats, its areas have a more set-piece feel than Baldur's Gate's more open areas, and is more intended to replicate a dungeon crawl-style campaign than Baldur's Gate's sprawling epic adventure of self-discovery.
Fallout 3 had a handful of companions, yes. Jericho in Megaton will join you if you're Evil and pay him 1000 caps. You can buy a slave from Paradise Falls. I forget her name but she's quite skilled with melee weapons. You also could find Dogmeat, a dog. Later on, Fawkes the super mutant could join you. Every Fallout game has followers that can join you. They just aren't as plentiful or obvious as the Infinity Engine games. My response below about tactical combat delves further into this. Well, obviously, games have a beginning and an end, like anything else. There still exists a gradient of linearity, and Baldur's Gate allowing you to do most of its quests in any order you want makes it less linear than IWD.
By tactical combat I mean the size of the encounters, how the terrain plays a factor, etc. Like I said, Baldur's Gate mostly pits you against smaller groups of individually strong foes, with the occasional big battle such as fighting the bandit camp. Meanwhile, in IWD, fighting large, varied groups of enemies happens a lot more often. The penultimate room in Kresselack's tomb, for instance, throws large group of different kinds of undead, including a wizard, at you. While the game itself doesn't necessarily have more strategic mechanics involved, as you say - although I consider encouraging you to completely design your own party a very strategic aspect of the game, as evidenced by the thread on party setups - a fight like that is virtually unheard of in BG while it is almost the norm in Icewind Dale. I don't believe it is. Unlike with BGEE, they don't have Bioware looking over their shoulder on this one. There's not a huge number of really good character mods, but the ones that are great really stand out. For BG2, Tashia and Fade are really great. For BG1, the NPC Project adds romances for Branwen, Shar-Teel, and Dynaheir. I played the Shar-Teel one and really enjoyed it.
But, I don't like designing items for myself very much. I do design items all the time when I DM my D&D campaign, but that's for my players' benefit, not mine. As a player, I like to be a bit more hands-off with that sort of thing. Even when a DM wants to tailor-make something for me in an upcoming story arc, I don't want to have too much input other than perhaps appearance. I might help if they're trying to work out a custom ability the item has, because I'm probably the most well-versed in such things in my group, but that's about it. Dolling up items for myself just wouldn't be fun. I might sit down and hash out a mod for others to use one day. I was working on one for Fallout: New Vegas, but never finished it.
But, no, I don't have an interest in making a mod right now. IWDEE is going to have new items as-is, so I am satisfied with that for now. Are you planning on making an NPC mod?
I certainly don't intend to quit or not buy IWD if DLC JNPCs are made. I would simply rather they weren't made. I'd probably get them if they were released. I'd likely play any NPC mods released eventually.
If (hopefully when), they make companions that would probably necessitate at least 6 new portraits (the artist could throw in a few extra). That's a dlc portrait pack right there - sell the companions to people who want them and their portraits to the people who don't.
Like wise, they'd need voice actors to do companion voice sets but, they could easily make additional player voice sets from them - sell the companions to people who want them and their voice sets to the people who don't.
Everyone can be happy!
As for the rest of your post, yes, you can make your own character customization stuff. Yes, it is more enjoyable than buying it. This is our opinion however and there's bound to be tons of people who does not share it. And sure, anything Beamdog releases can be uploaded by someone and pirated at infinitum. That can be applied to anything ever though and it doesn't (nor should it) stop people from creating and selling their merchandise.
Pretty big fact you've overlooked though; there allready are portrait and voice sets available as paid downloadable content. The tablet versions of the games aren't quite as drag-and-drop-customizable apparently and thus it's quite understandable for tablet users to buy these packs. Now I don't have the sales numbers, obviously, but considering how they didn't drop this practice after the first BG it seems likely that it's worthwhile.
To me that just translates to "longer game" as I always complete everything possible to complete in every game I play. There weren't many but there were some side-quests in IWD which you mentioned yourself, if they'd just spent a few more months throwing in more side quests would that have made it a different style of game it your mind? Having more or less of the same thing doesn't make one game a different style from another.
As for your points on being able to do side quests in whatever order you want in BG/BG2; there is still an order within a single side quest and limited numbers of options to complete a side quest. Also there is still a limit to the content in the game. If you complete all the side quests available you're forced to do the next step in the main quest, then additional side quests might become available.
But if you drew a map of your directions throughout the game it would still stretch primarily in one direction, like a tree. A tree with more branches is still a tree. Like I said every single video game is linear to some extent, some have more options than others but it still doesn't compare to a tabletop game of which you have as much freedom as you do in real life, sometimes more depending on the genre and character species. And I won't even go into the limited choices for what you can say in particular situations and other limitations of video games.
@Kamuizin 's poll about whether JNPCs should be included in IWDEE is not in those places.
I don't know if I noticed all that, maybe I noticed it was a little harder but I thought I only felt that way because I soloed it my first play through. That might be why I'm not seeing where you're coming from here, I didn't notice any of the things you're thinking of when you talk about it.
Yeah I think I didn't notice any strategic difference in all that because I can solo both BG and IWD as a Fighter applying the strategy of "Me tough, me smash" and get through it all without having to think about strategy whatsoever, which is why I consider IWD a game that does not focus on strategy.
Even if they can, I don't know why they would create an expansion pack for such an old game. This departments thing seems to be revamping old games not making new game packs. And I don't know why anyone would be interested in them making an IWD expansion pack anyway, I'd much rather see a PSTEE or BG3.
Though I have some limited computer programming experience and experience with minor modifications to existing systems, I have no idea how to make an NPC mod. I don't know if I'd be good at it anyway.
So why should they not be made then? Just to make thousands of people sad? If you think they're going to spend time on other things if they don't make a JNPC DLC, you're probably wrong. Look at their other EEs, they don't have any DLC except for JNPCs, and everything else they added they added through patches which they will do with IWDEE regardless of whether they make some JNPC DLCs. But again, I really don't expect that they will make any no matter what people say because it comes down to what the devs decide amongst themselves and they've already decided so the argument is kind of pointless.
Have you never met a man with traditional Jewish values before? Its somewhat offensive that you can't take anything I say seriously because I have a different set of values than you do. Further more, I never said "people spending money on virtual goods is as bad as a serial killer" obviously the whole game is a virtual good in the first place, and buying computer software is not remotely comparable to murder. I was referring to the fact that a person who would buy something they could easily make themselves (portraits and sound sets) shows a lack of character and poor sense of value and it's disheartening to me to think that people nowadays have become so.
It's not illegal to download photos off the internet and use them for personal use. It is illegal to pirate say a video game or movie or something. That's the difference.
Okay yeah I did overlook that, since I've never looked at the mobile versions of the game. But I would much rather they invest their time to make it easy to add your own portraits and sound sets rather than selling packs, which is exaction. Similar to an outside company cutting off a towns wood supply so they can monopolize on wood made merchandise sales, its not right.
My feeling when trying to catch up on the discussion...
We have atm an pool with 51% (57 votes) of ppl rejecting the Beamdog NPC idea against an 36% (41 votes) of people that want Beamdog NPCs.
I started this thread as a question, and it developed this much, i believe this is very much valid to make this discussion important to the community (no matter if you support or not the idea).
Sometimes things click, other times they don't.
About the new trilogy I will reserve my judgment for after release. I never trust rumors about movies, mainly if it's a really expected one
Anyway we're derailing this thread. If people wish to go on talking about Star Wars' past, present and future, I'll split the comments into a new thread.
What I would prefer though are a bunch of expanded voice sets, with lots of location and situation triggered comments.