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  • supposedlysupposedly Member Posts: 206
    I suppose one could grapple Firkraag in the copper coronet while he's shapeshifted in human form, but that would be



    changing the subject
  • NimranNimran Member Posts: 4,875
    wubble said:

    I suppose one could grapple Firkraag in the copper coronet while he's shapeshifted in human form, but that would be



    changing the subject

    supposedly
    My face is getting red from all the facepalms.
  • wubblewubble Member Posts: 3,156
    Nimran said:

    wubble said:

    I suppose one could grapple Firkraag in the copper coronet while he's shapeshifted in human form, but that would be



    changing the subject

    supposedly
    My face is getting red from all the facepalms.
    I couldn't resist any longer...
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Flight requires a lot of energy. Also, if something knocks the dragon out of the air, like a ballista, a big spell, or a Barbarian with a good grapple check pinning the dragon's wings, that's several tons of dragon hitting the ground from dozens of feet high. Naturally, a dragon should still utilize flight to its advantage, and they can and do in PnP.

    Rolling around like a jackass hoping to squish things is a good way to use your own tremendous weight against you. If that Fighter armed with a longspear braces it, you just put a chopstick through your own lung.

    Stomping has a predictable, easily avoided angle and has limited range.

    Basically, dragons ain't all that and a bag of chips. They have weaknesses, and being huge isn't always a strength.
  • wubblewubble Member Posts: 3,156


    Basically, dragons ain't all that and a bag of chips. They have weaknesses, and being huge isn't always a strength.

    yeah but they have breath weapons and powerful magic to make up for the awkwardness of their form. also in cramped conditions it can e very hard to avoid a dragon stomp (though this can work against the dragon allowing smaller creatures to outmanouver it and strike it's weak points).
  • kcwisekcwise Member Posts: 2,287
    Also, they don't want to ruin the pretty polish on their talons.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    wubble said:


    Basically, dragons ain't all that and a bag of chips. They have weaknesses, and being huge isn't always a strength.

    yeah but they have breath weapons and powerful magic to make up for the awkwardness of their form. also in cramped conditions it can e very hard to avoid a dragon stomp (though this can work against the dragon allowing smaller creatures to outmanouver it and strike it's weak points).
    Breath weapons that typically deal only in singular damage types, which the prepared adventurer can pretty easily resist.
    The PCs probably also have powerful magic at their disposal if they're ballsy enough to take on a legendary creature like a dragon.
    Like you say, cramped conditions can work against the dragon. Limited spaces are generally going to be worse for the dragon. A hallway ten feet wide is an obstacle for any dragon older than adolescence, while the same hallway won't penalize a PC in the least. Dragons are uniquely mobile, so unless they actually have a specific strategy in mind, they're better off in an open space, or at least a closed space as expansive as a huge cavern.
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 3,079


    Like you say, cramped conditions can work against the dragon. Limited spaces are generally going to be worse for the dragon. A hallway ten feet wide is an obstacle for any dragon older than adolescence, while the same hallway won't penalize a PC in the least. Dragons are uniquely mobile, so unless they actually have a specific strategy in mind, they're better off in an open space, or at least a closed space as expansive as a huge cavern.

    But wait, these are DRAGONS we're talking about! If they can't fit in a hallway, they SMASH those walls so that they DO fit! A red dragon could also vaporize the walls with his/her breath weapon (unless the walls are made of tungsten of course).
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    edited December 2014


    But wait, these are DRAGONS we're talking about! If they can't fit in a hallway, they SMASH those walls so that they DO fit! A red dragon could also vaporize the walls with his/her breath weapon (unless the walls are made of tungsten of course).

    Eh, that's not how I'd run it. I don't care how big or strong a dragon is. They can't muscle apart bedrock or the walls of a fortress, not with any kind of speed, anyway.

    In Pathfinder, objects like stone walls have hardness, and only damage in excess of an object's hardness subtracts from an object's HP. Energy attacks, like fire, also have their damage cut in half before comparing the damage to hardness. Even an ancient red dragon's 20d10 breath weapon is only doing 110 damage on average. Half that and it's 55, subtract a normal stone wall's hardness of 8 and you've got 47. A stone wall has 15 HP per inch of thickness, so even walls just six inches thick can weather the breath weapon with HP to spare.
    Post edited by Schneidend on
  • AllbrotherAllbrother Member Posts: 261
    wubble said:

    I agree entirely, dragons also always fight on the ground i don't understand it. If i was a dragon i'd stay in the air rather than land and fight puny mortals.

    To be fair, most of the time people fight dragons in caves where there isn't much room to fly around
  • OudynOudyn Member Posts: 74


    But wait, these are DRAGONS we're talking about! If they can't fit in a hallway, they SMASH those walls so that they DO fit! A red dragon could also vaporize the walls with his/her breath weapon (unless the walls are made of tungsten of course).

    Eh, that's not how I'd run it. I don't care how big or strong a dragon is. They can't muscle apart bedrock or the walls of a fortress, not with any kind of speed, anyway.

    In Pathfinder, objects like stone walls have hardness, and only damage in excess of an object's hardness subtracts from an object's HP. Energy attacks, like fire, also have their damage cut in half before comparing the damage to hardness. Even an ancient red dragon's 20d10 breath weapon is only doing 110 damage on average. Half that and it's 55, subtract a normal stone wall's hardness of 8 and you've got 47. A stone wall has 15 HP per inch of thickness, so even walls just six inches thick can weather the breath weapon with HP to spare.
    You forgot about this little tidbit: Ancient Red Dragons can turn stone to lava. Because they're immune to fire... Imagine the wall turning to lava and a dragon flying through the hole. And, though it may be less fun, the dragon could just shrink itself.
  • skinnydragonskinnydragon Member Posts: 110
    I'm going to go with boredom. Considering a dragons mental abilities alone their lairs could be so perfectly trapped they wee unassailable without the casting level of a high level mags and damage / armour to rival virtually any fighter. However after so many centuries games like bait the adventurer become tempting and as with any game you Have to have rules for fun and challenge and.besides you don't get much standing at the annual peasant roast for I killed 15 adventurers this year by standing on them. Far better for fewer kills in straight combat.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018

    And pseudo dragons and faerie dragons would need to have much longer wings to fly if not having flight by magic. :)

    At least 10 feet wingspan. :D

    Largest flying birds:
    Cinereous vulture - 15-30 pounds, 3-4 feet long, 8-10 feet wingspan :)
    Dalmatian pelican - 15-30 pounds, 5-6 feet long, 9-12 feet wingspan :)

    It would take a few halflings stacked on each other to make 10 or 12 feet. :D Where are some halflings? n.n

    If you are going to throw logic at the problem, dragons as a whole should not be able to fly. Given a dragon the size of Smaug, their wings would not be able to generate enough thrust to get them off the ground, and their legs would not be fast enough to take flight via gliding. Best not to think about the whole thing and just have fun.

  • wubblewubble Member Posts: 3,156
    Dragons are bloody awesome, I think we can forgive them a little cheating in the flying department.
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  • Bane_of_GerbilsBane_of_Gerbils Member Posts: 6
    Dragons are intrinsically cocky and for good reason. They have been bred through generations of ancients that soared mightily over all terrestrial holdings. Why-'o-why would they stand there and endure a futile assault when a single lash of their tail would dispose of any potential threat? They wouldn' t. Unless there was a threat to their loot hoard presented, they would scarcely even acknowledge the existence of any potentially usurping agent regardless of the weaponry they might bring to the table. Don't forget the dragon stare. It will incapacitate even the strongest warriors.
  • kcwisekcwise Member Posts: 2,287
    I can imagine Winthrop would sell Red Dragon Firewizz at his inn.
  • NimranNimran Member Posts: 4,875
    It's the Cloakwood Mine all over again...
  • dementeddemented Member Posts: 388
    kiwidoc said:



    I personally think all the really fast and clever dragons have figured out that staying in a world full of people who keep trying to kill them is a bad idea, so they have moved addresses to a less conflict ridden plane. The ones that are left are the dunces, the low in magic and the slow. (Now I think it's time to run before an irate horde of dragons comes after me for my hide!)

    That would explain why all the dragons in Skyrim were such idiots.
  • domeplsffsdomeplsffs Member Posts: 36
    Heindrich said:

    Better to just shoe it away or entrap and flush down the toilet.

    Could we please have Firekraag trying to do this to Charname and his party? Pretty please? Someone who knows how to mod. PLEASE I wanne get shoed by some of the dragons x3
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Reading this topic I really want to find that video from Army of Darkness "London Bridges Falling down, falling down.... my fair lady." Anyone having seen the scene will understand why.
  • skinnydragonskinnydragon Member Posts: 110

    Don't forget the dragon stare. It will incapacitate even the strongest warriors.

    Ah yes the look I used to call "lunch" (short for "you look like you'd make a nice lunch ")
  • NimranNimran Member Posts: 4,875

    Don't forget the dragon stare. It will incapacitate even the strongest warriors.

    Ah yes the look I used to call "lunch" (short for "you look like you'd make a nice lunch ")
    The look my ferret gives me when she tries to eat my lunch.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018

    Don't forget the dragon stare. It will incapacitate even the strongest warriors.

    Ah yes the look I used to call "lunch" (short for "you look like you'd make a nice lunch ")
    does it make me a bad person that, when reading this line I heard the word "Lunch" spoken in Bruce Willis' voice?
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