By being a discerning consumer, vote with your wallet. Like I said, if you don't like what a company does, don't support their product. If nobody likes a restaurant, they don't go there, and it goes out of business. Same concept. If you don't like day one DLC, or various practices in the industry, don't buy the game, and don't support the developer. Plain and simple.
@ mlnevese... great example. Personally, I HATE steam. I hate the fact that I have to have a client running on my computer constantly just to run one game. Therefore, if a title comes out that requires Steam (even if I bought it on a dvd), then I won't buy it. But people (even the ones who despise these practices) continue to buy these games anyway. Therefore, why would said developer stop utilizing the platform/using DRM/etc if they are still making money? Also, the same people who buy the games and put dozens upon hundreds of hours into them, are the same people that are whining about industry practices on these forums. Ironic, no?
I'd appreciate it if you stopped calling me a 'whiner'. I do vote with my wallet, after that catastrophe that was ME3's ending I have decided to no longer purchase DLC related to ME3. When DA3 comes out I probably won't buy it, I'll get a free week or two week subscription from Gamefly or something and see if its any good. If it is I'll go buy it. If not screw it. I don't like being called a whiner, I agree that voting with your wallet is what needs to happen if you want changes to come, but I don't like how rude some people have been to those of us who want good story-telling from companies we know are capable of it.
I'd appreciate it if you stopped calling me a 'whiner'. I do vote with my wallet, after that catastrophe that was ME3's ending I have decided to no longer purchase DLC related to ME3. When DA3 comes out I probably won't buy it, I'll get a free week or two week subscription from Gamefly or something and see if its any good. If it is I'll go buy it. If not screw it. I don't like being called a whiner, I agree that voting with your wallet is what needs to happen if you want changes to come, but I don't like how rude some people have been to those of us who want good story-telling from companies we know are capable of it.
@Roller12 Umm I use Steam for about 30 games...and I like many things about it but CUSTOMER SUPPORT is not one of them, the mean time to reply to submitted tickets to them has been nearly a week.....not a great response time.
I also notice if you google STEAM and Complaints you see there is no shortage of whining about STEAM.
Also Valve is a private company and does not release its financials to the public, so you cannot determine its true worth.
All in all Roller you keep going off but keep using faulty logic and unsubstantiated claims to prove your points.
I've noticed there are roughly three groups of people: people who love steam, people who are fairly neutral, and people who detest it so much, that were they ever to see Gabe Newel, would most likely loose all their higher faculties, flying into an animalistic rage, and try and rip out his organs with their teeth and hands.
Actually Corporations do pay taxes. I'm doing them right now
Ahh but Corporations don't really PAY taxes...the customers pay them...the Corp just filters the money.... If the taxes increase does the CEO take a pay cut? NO. The customer pays more....tax increases on busineses is counter productive to economic growth.
Yes, but the consumers don't really pay the taxes either, do they? They're employed by companies whose expenses are paid for by the consumers, meaning that the consumers pay the consumer's taxes so that the former and not the latter pay taxes.
Its the consumers who pay taxes, not the consumers.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: gamers are the biggest pack of self-entitled whiners on the face of this planet. Devs can literally never win. No matter what they do, some bloated section of their fanbase will hate any given decision, and they will roar it from the mountaintops to try and make themselves appear as anything besides a vocal minority. Take that whole ME3 ending fiasco. I've never seen a more disgusting display of bandwagon, mob mentality in all my years.
Correct. Devs can never win. What I wish I could see more often is devs, as hard as I KNOW this is, learning to get thick skin.
Gamers will always whine. Period. Expecting otherwise would be foolish. The best devs are the ones that can take constructive criticism and (this is the key) not take it personally.
Recently, with the Jay Wilson comment over Diablo III, it astonishes me that devs can have such thin skin. I understand it is ALWAYS hard to take criticism! I'm sure I would feel crushed if I was a dev! But when you make a high profile game, or remake in this case, you are going to get flak. A lot of it.
Stick to what you want to do with the game and do. not. take. things. personally. That would be my advice to all devs.
Its the consumers who pay taxes, not the consumers.
Ummm What? I followed what you were saying right up to this part The Consumer always pays the cost. Higher costs are passed to the consumer, thus higher taxes and higher fees for regulation cost the consumer more...and that hurts the lower income types more than anyone else. Low taxes and low fees means more businesses and start ups and more overall revenue, more jobs and more economic happiness
I've noticed there are roughly three groups of people: people who love steam, people who are fairly neutral, and people who detest it so much, that were they ever to see Gabe Newel, would most likely loose all their higher faculties, flying into an animalistic rage, and try and rip out his organs with their teeth and hands.
Im in that middle group, I use it but I don't idolize it or revile it.
@Aliteri I'm confused about you referencing me, as i don't recall posting about corporate taxes.
For what it's worth, i concur that corporations merely collect taxes, for the government, from consumers. All costs of doing business, including taxes, must be covered by sales, or it's out of business time. Accounting equations doncha know. Voters might "think" that they can punish business with taxes, but that just drives them offshore, and raises consumer prices.
I admit that by the end of your post, i was dizzy and confused. Let's raise taxes on everyone to 100% and just be DONE with this JOBS nonsense. Right?
Is this a thread slating Gamers? Or the start of a Marxist movement?
Hell, I like the idea of Baldur's Gate being owned by the people... For the people...
Problem is people collectively would need to get together and decide if they should put money into Baldur's Gate to enhance it OR build that clinic for little itty babies... You know the little itty babies would get the money for the clinic...
Back to capitalism then! Sod taxes for that clinic for little itty babies! Offshore account anyone? Baldur's Gate is OURS to exploit! People would pay us to play it!
And thus we get our Baldur's Gate:Enhanced Edition...
Oh just in case this was a thread about slating Gamers... Gamers are all crackheads who pick their noses and chew!
Regarding Steam, enough people like it that it's putting the PC game box retailers out of business. So our real choice is becoming Steam DRM or GTFO. Count me as disaffected but ultimately accepting.
Btw you guys forgot to mention S. Corps... they don't pay entity taxes (except in certain jurisdictions that don't consder them true corporations). Yes you NYC. Wow this is getting fun. LOL
@ Epitomy I wasn't calling you a whiner. I was just making a general comment about the type of posts I see habitually throughout the internet. Not meant for anyone here personally.
Oh, that last post was just nonsense. The quote sort of made things even harder to read.
Yeah if there was one thing I would change about this forum would be to allow the use of colors or some other way to help differentiate between quotes and posts about quoted stuff.
I'd appreciate it if you stopped calling me a 'whiner'. I do vote with my wallet, after that catastrophe that was ME3's ending I have decided to no longer purchase DLC related to ME3. When DA3 comes out I probably won't buy it, I'll get a free week or two week subscription from Gamefly or something and see if its any good. If it is I'll go buy it. If not screw it. I don't like being called a whiner, I agree that voting with your wallet is what needs to happen if you want changes to come, but I don't like how rude some people have been to those of us who want good story-telling from companies we know are capable of it.
That is all.
Lol, no worries man, they call you and me a whiner because they know that we're right and that bioware has sold it's soul to EA. But they don't want to admit it so they have to resort to name calling. Don't take it personal, just realize that they insult you because they don't have the balls to stand up and say they're not going to buy a half ass game.
@immagikman i feel you but even you and i are guilty of this name calling, you're quick to say a person don't understand the business world because they don't agree, and i'm sure i've gotten riled up and said worse. Point is, people are going to get offended if we call them whiners/fanboys/ignorant/stupid/etc. It does take some of the fun out of the debating, but at least then everyone goes home with a smile on their face.
Kinda like the argument where i can prove you don't exist i came up with in high school. It's a well thought out but extremely arrogent argument that can prove it but makes you feel like crap. Great at parties though
@Bjjorick I can accept that But honestly I DO believe that a good 75 to 90% of gamers have no clue what so ever about business, coding, producing a product or marketing and this tends to cause them to whine and complain about ridiculous stuff instead of the actual valid things that should be addressed...but hey its an opinion and opinions are like umm orifices we all have them and they all stink
@Bjjorick I can accept that But honestly I DO believe that a good 75 to 90% of gamers have no clue what so ever about business, coding, producing a product or marketing and this tends to cause them to whine and complain about ridiculous stuff instead of the actual valid things that should be addressed...but hey its an opinion and opinions are like umm orifices we all have them and they all stink
@Bjjorick I can accept that But honestly I DO believe that a good 75 to 90% of gamers have no clue what so ever about business, coding, producing a product or marketing and this tends to cause them to whine and complain about ridiculous stuff instead of the actual valid things that should be addressed...but hey its an opinion and opinions are like umm orifices we all have them and they all stink
and mine smells worst of all
hey, just because i said i'm special, it doesn't mean i think it's a *good* special
@theperm who sayeth: "Btw you guys forgot to mention S. Corps... they don't pay entity taxes (except in certain jurisdictions that don't consder them true corporations). Yes you NYC. Wow this is getting fun. LOL"
True but misleading. Subchapter S corporations don't themselves pay taxes but...
quoting from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S_corporation "Instead, the corporation's income or losses are divided among and passed through to its shareholders. The shareholders must then report the income or loss on their own individual income tax returns."
Benjamin Franklin said, "The only things certain in life are death and taxes."
Albert Einstein said "The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax."
@Anduin who said: "Is this a thread slating Gamers? Or the start of a Marxist movement?" and "Oh just in case this was a thread about slating Gamers... Gamers are all crackheads who pick their noses and chew!"
This thread has meandered all over hell and back. I'm good with that. But i'm starting to feel like the designated driver when everyone else is well slated.
Regarding Marxism, picking and chewing, Heeeeeres Valdimir! (subtitles at 11 seconds)
Comments
That is all.
Umm I use Steam for about 30 games...and I like many things about it but CUSTOMER SUPPORT is not one of them, the mean time to reply to submitted tickets to them has been nearly a week.....not a great response time.
I also notice if you google STEAM and Complaints you see there is no shortage of whining about STEAM.
Also Valve is a private company and does not release its financials to the public, so you cannot determine its true worth.
All in all Roller you keep going off but keep using faulty logic and unsubstantiated claims to prove your points.
If it's not real, I don't want to know. Troll level: Freeman!
Seriously, "I see nothing. I know nothing!" I'm just a reposter.
If the taxes increase does the CEO take a pay cut? NO. The customer pays more....tax increases on busineses is counter productive to economic growth.
@immagikman
Yes, but the consumers don't really pay the taxes either, do they? They're employed by companies whose expenses are paid for by the consumers, meaning that the consumers pay the consumer's taxes so that the former and not the latter pay taxes.
Its the consumers who pay taxes, not the consumers.
Gamers will always whine. Period. Expecting otherwise would be foolish. The best devs are the ones that can take constructive criticism and (this is the key) not take it personally.
Recently, with the Jay Wilson comment over Diablo III, it astonishes me that devs can have such thin skin. I understand it is ALWAYS hard to take criticism! I'm sure I would feel crushed if I was a dev! But when you make a high profile game, or remake in this case, you are going to get flak. A lot of it.
Stick to what you want to do with the game and do. not. take. things. personally. That would be my advice to all devs.
For what it's worth, i concur that corporations merely collect taxes, for the government, from consumers. All costs of doing business, including taxes, must be covered by sales, or it's out of business time. Accounting equations doncha know. Voters might "think" that they can punish business with taxes, but that just drives them offshore, and raises consumer prices.
I admit that by the end of your post, i was dizzy and confused. Let's raise taxes on everyone to 100% and just be DONE with this JOBS nonsense. Right?
Edit add: Aliteri, i enjoyed your post. thankx
Hell, I like the idea of Baldur's Gate being owned by the people... For the people...
Problem is people collectively would need to get together and decide if they should put money into Baldur's Gate to enhance it OR build that clinic for little itty babies... You know the little itty babies would get the money for the clinic...
Back to capitalism then! Sod taxes for that clinic for little itty babies! Offshore account anyone? Baldur's Gate is OURS to exploit! People would pay us to play it!
And thus we get our Baldur's Gate:Enhanced Edition...
Oh just in case this was a thread about slating Gamers... Gamers are all crackheads who pick their noses and chew!
Oh, that last post was just nonsense. The quote sort of made things even harder to read.
And while you have valid points about Bioware and EA....I still say ME3 was fine as released DLC or no.
Kinda like the argument where i can prove you don't exist i came up with in high school. It's a well thought out but extremely arrogent argument that can prove it but makes you feel like crap. Great at parties though
I can accept that
But honestly I DO believe that a good 75 to 90% of gamers have no clue what so ever about business, coding, producing a product or marketing and this tends to cause them to whine and complain about ridiculous stuff instead of the actual valid things that should be addressed...but hey its an opinion and opinions are like umm orifices we all have them and they all stink
hey, just because i said i'm special, it doesn't mean i think it's a *good* special
True but misleading. Subchapter S corporations don't themselves pay taxes but...
quoting from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S_corporation "Instead, the corporation's income or losses are divided among and passed through to its shareholders. The shareholders must then report the income or loss on their own individual income tax returns."
Benjamin Franklin said, "The only things certain in life are death and taxes."
Albert Einstein said "The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax."
Ned Flanders (quoting the Ramones) says:
This thread has meandered all over hell and back. I'm good with that. But i'm starting to feel like the designated driver when everyone else is well slated.
Regarding Marxism, picking and chewing, Heeeeeres Valdimir! (subtitles at 11 seconds)
Back at ya buddy! Lightening the mood is my fave indulgence.