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The Nightmare Mode (Legacy of Bhaal) Thread

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Comments

  • TredvoltTredvolt Member Posts: 62
    I use a few tweaks but I try to go purist. Once SCS is fully updated for the new patch (maybe it is already?) I'll run that because I feel SCS is pretty much necessary. I do not use IR or SR because I feel they go too far. Demivrgvs and I have had a couple long conversations on skype about the possibility of an IR Lite™ version that tries to stay more faithful to the base game and limits the amount of changes to "fixes" or "extreme imbalance corrections". I'd obviously use that version if it ever can get there.

    SUMMONS

    Yea I use summons quite a bit although I've tried to minimize the uses throughout the game and I've cut down quite a bit. I run a limited sleep environment so the skeletons I get from my Cleric are few and far between, but the monster summoning wands still get used quite a bit. I use less than 100 charges for the whole game though for what its worth.

    Are summons too strong in LOB - yea probably, but I've always seen them as a critical part of the D&D world. There are probably 30 summons spells in the game, and just ignoring those seems odd. Still, if someone were to opt not to use them I can understand why.

    I tank with my fighter/cleric and use foa or defender of easthaven but I actually kill more things with my sling. Different battles require different setups and as the game progresses, I tank more and use summons less which means less sling.

    THROWING DAGGERS

    The damage throughput on throwing daggers with str modifications is extremely high. So high in fact it is better than ALMOST any melee setup, including dual wielding. There are a few exceptions and you can get a bit more damage throughput, but at the cost of having to heavily micro. Close range fighters always end up taking the odd hit here and there, spell damage, or errant arrows.

    SKALD

    I won't bore you with another long discussion about skald bonuses but I will summarize. It is incorrect to look at these bonuses as giving linear benefit especially with regard to armor class on your main tank. It is also difficult to quantify the protective elements especially in a low sleep environment where you can't just keep chaotic commands on everyone. Bard song + Helms of Charm Protection make you immune to pretty much everything. This of course doesn't even touch on the identification convenience and all the arcane spell casting at such early levels. Also the experience bonus from the scroll memorization is not insignificant.

    INVIS POTIONS

    There are a surprising amount if you know where to look. Also make sure to steal from thieves as many of them have a potion or two on them throughout the game. Before Sendai's Enclave are drow disguised as woodland animals that you can steal a lot of potions from. I'd say there are at least 60-100 but I've never really counted. Considering that is 60-100 more backstabs is a truly staggering amount of damage added to that character's output.

    IH and GWW

    I understand that IH gets nerfed in SR and maybe it should but GWWs are just as cheesy if not more so especially in high rest environments. That being said I don't really mind either of them that much but it is odd to avoid one just to get the other. Multiclass thieves getting GWW is great but we found with our testing that it wasn't worth losing out on 6 damage per attack on every attack the entire game. The dual kensai thief just has a much higher damage output the entire game. Even if it were 6 damage vs all those GWWs and even if there wans't IH in the mix - you still get time stop HLAs as thief so the dual is heavily favored. The only thing that sucks about the dual is human saving throws - so you'll need to carefully manage those for a while.

    Composition

    Dropping the Inquisitor for a F/T is a great decision IMO.

  • comebackhomecomebackhome Member Posts: 254

    2. Beserker/cleric of Lathander with dual warhammers (dwarf) -> EE keepered into halfling for appearance.

    What hammers are you using? Found them unimpressive overall, save of course for Crom Faeyr.

    5. Archer specializing in crossbows.

    That seems like a weird choice, considering IR's crossbow reload time. Wouldn't bows be better?

    6. Mage/assassin using darts (will use melfs/improved haste combo + poison weapon)

    Also odd since SR does away with IH doubling APR. I'm not sure how good Assassin is compared to Wizard Slayer, since they do essentially the same thing (interrupt spellcasting) but liches are immune to poison.

    Playing with all multi classed characters for added difficulty too.

    With SR, this might actually be optimal. APR are a huge damage increase, and having GWW on every Fighter is actually a big thing.

    As for my own party, I'm liking my Inquisitor less and less. I just can't ever seem to hit with dispel even at lvl 15, which makes me think they're not all that useful anymore. Later on in the game it's more about specific dispels anyway and keeping your own buffs up; granted that's still doable with Dispel Magic, but an added hassle.

    I'm thinking of adding a Thief for UAI into Carsomyr, but I'm not sure which route to go. F/T or FMT seem the obvious choices, since sadly my beloved Swash10->F can't get UAI. But FMT does take a hefty XP hit, especially in a heavily multiclassed party already. Hm...

    Definitely still loving the Archer² though. They are DOING it for me.
    I'm only in BG EE ATM, but I plan on ending up with crom faeyr/runehammer. Warhammer's have always been a weapon I've loved. Early on though I'm hoping to get the Warhammer off the mad cleric in BG EE.

    Crossbows mainly because I've played bows to death in all my other playthroughs to give myself interest in playing a ranged class again :)

    That's interesting about SR, I didn't realize that thanks. I'm unsure either because I've never tried wizardslayer but right now even at level 1/1 my character has lots of damage out put and is great at kiting. Especially for legacy of bhaal mode. If you have any information about the other that would be interesting though.

    I did the multi classing mostly to test my limits in BG for added difficulty but yes that's definitely a bonus :)

    Your playthrough sounds interesting. Inquisitor I never really got much into and also nuked protections with a mage. Maybe the mods reduce the cheese factor that it had in the original?

    FMT no doubt takes hard xp hits but they are definitely in the top 3 of strongest builds overall. Especially late game.

    Archers are fantastic and are a staple of any playthrough. I know mine with 19 dex is critting kobolds for 30 damage at level one haha

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    Tredvolt said:

    I use a few tweaks but I try to go purist. Once SCS is fully updated for the new patch (maybe it is already?) I'll run that because I feel SCS is pretty much necessary.

    SCS was fixed right away by some users, who posted a fix for it here on the forums. Works perfectly.
    Tredvolt said:

    SUMMONS
    [...]
    Still, if someone were to opt not to use them I can understand why.

    Yeah, it's mostly personal choice. I tried it out a bit and while the testing wasn't comprehensive, it was enough to convince me it's too easy with summons. You can get some very high level summons very quickly, and have them for practically every fight. Also they are annoying. But that, again, is just me. I'm not the LoB Police.
    Tredvolt said:

    THROWING DAGGERS

    The damage throughput on throwing daggers with str modifications is extremely high. So high in fact it is better than ALMOST any melee setup, including dual wielding.

    Can you explain why? It's not like melee weapons don't also get STR bonuses, or max APR (with +APR weapons). With both at max APR and both getting the same STR bonus, wouldn't the pitiful base damage of the one throwing dagger worth using completely lose out to any of the good melee weapons?
    The only advantage I see is the range, but since you're already tanking that isn't a huge deal.
    Tredvolt said:

    Close range fighters always end up taking the odd hit here and there, spell damage, or errant arrows.

    Now I'm even more confused. How does staying at range deal with arrows?
    Tredvolt said:

    INVIS POTIONS

    There are a surprising amount if you know where to look. Also make sure to steal from thieves as many of them have a potion or two on them throughout the game. Before Sendai's Enclave are drow disguised as woodland animals that you can steal a lot of potions from. I'd say there are at least 60-100 but I've never really counted. Considering that is 60-100 more backstabs is a truly staggering amount of damage added to that character's output.

    I'd argue that trying to get all those potions and setting up backstabs is actually not very efficient. Just clobbering things continuously may very well yield higher damage/time, and many dangerous enemies either see through invisibility or are immune to backstabs anyway.
    The only time I could see backstab (pun!) is with Mislead, which I still consider a bug and won't use. Personal preference, again.
    Tredvolt said:

    Dropping the Inquisitor for a F/T is a great decision IMO.

    I am more and more inclined to believe so. I am not happy at all with how the Inquisitor is performing. Unreliable Dispel is exactly WHY I used to pick Inquisitor in the first place, and now we're back to that. Scrapped, I think.


    On a different note: I tested WS9->Druid vs. WS9->Mage some more, and found a fairly compelling reason to stick with the Druid; while Melf's is an acceptable replacement for Fire Seeds in many situations, FS have one crucial advantage: they penetrate Protection from Missiles/Physical Mirror (and yes, do apply Miscast when they do). That spell has become the bane of my existence, because it's used regularly by SCS Mages and stops my main interrupters cold (Archers) - being unable to apply Miscast because of that is a bit of a deal-breaker.

    If, as I plan, I am replacing the Inquisitor with a FMT, that should leave enough Arcane spells to not worry about having a Druid.

    Does anyone know if it's intended that Wizard Slayer Miscast only seems to stop Arcane spells? Is that mod behavior, if so which one? I swear I remember it also stopping Divine spells, but maybe I'm just remembering wrong.

  • TredvoltTredvolt Member Posts: 62
    Throwing Daggers in LoB

    Pickpocket the boomerang blade on the first day out of the dungeon. This item is 2d4+2 damage and has an attack rate of 2 per round baseline. On our intrepid Kensai this turns out to be:

    7 - Average Weapon Damage
    5 - Grandmastery Bonus
    2 - Bard Song (early bonus)
    7 - Strength Bonus (19 str belt)
    3 - Kensai Bonus (level 9)

    The moment you pick it up you have at least 24 average damage with 48 damage crits at a rate of 3.5 attacks per round AT RANGE. I believe this is 84 without factoring in crits.

    The best dual wield setup is something like the Celestial Fury and Belm. Quite a bit further along but still in the first third of the game. I actually like the dual scimitars proficiency weapons of usuno and belm. You need quite a few more proficiencies for this to work and you are gaining in theory 1 attack per round.

    The katana for sake of argument provides:

    8.5 - Average Weapon Damage
    5 - Grandmastery Bonus
    2 - Bard Song
    7 - Strength Bonus
    3 - Kensai Bonus
    1 - Proc Average Damage

    The Belm provides

    6.5 - Average Weapon Damage
    2 - Bard Song
    7 - Strength Bonus
    3 - Kensai Bonus

    26.5 Average Damage from the Katana per swing. The belm then provides 18.5. Assuming everything hits you are looking at an average of 111.5 damage per round. This is also assuming you have the proficiencies depending on your setup since any extra points are taking away from your quarterstaff profs for optimal backstabs and and blunt fights.

    Even so, one might conclude the extra hassle and profs - are worth the sizable damage increase in throughput. The problem with this math and similar types of paper comparisons is that it doesn't really account for how real battles are fought.

    - Melee is often very dangerous. The closer you are especially with short range (not two handers) weapons means you pull aggro from time to time. This forces you to kite and lose a lot of up time. The enemy range attacks often focus your melee players as well, and it isn't often feasible for a tank character to intercept ALL incoming range attacks when you have multiple melee fighters.
    - Getting to melee takes some seconds. By the time my melee characters even get to an enemy my ranged characters often have already hit the enemies 2 or 3 times. Think of this as a first strike bonus.
    - Damage focus. In the melee it is often difficult to have all of your fighters be on the same targets. There is a jumble of summons and enemies and allies all trying to reach and position on their best objectives. Range have no such difficulties. Think something like yuanti mages in the planar prison with their fast summoning, haste and melee allies. Can your melee even get to the priorities?
    - Melee is VERY DANGEROUS, the first point needs to be underlined again. Do you want a face full of skull trap or worse just to get your swings in or would you rather range assault freely in safety as your tank or summons take the brunt of the magical barrage.
    - Snipes, often enemies get into the almost dead range and it makes a lot of sense to switch to them with range for one shot or two to finish them off before returning to other priorities. Even with focus your summons and AOE damage may provide sniping opportunities that melees can't take advantage of as easily.

    ----------------------------------------

    Obviously people's styles will differ greatly. I've played with the dual wielders and maxed them to the hilt with every sort of combination I could think of. They can do higher throughput under ideal circumstances that in practice rarely come up. By the very END of the game, some dual setups are probably going to eclipse any range solutions but I optimize around the early game as much as possible because for me the early game is MUCH MUCH harder than late.

    I have run 100s of games (i know its scary) - up to spellhold and then quit. I have focused my optimization around this first 3rd of the game as much as possible. It is this 3rd that most of my setups are tuned for. In my experience the throwing dagger is far too strong and should honestly be nerfed. It does a bastard sword worth of damage at twice the attack rate and in complete safety.

    My fix for the boomerang dagger

    A) Lower the base damage to 1d4
    B) Lower the enchant to +1

    Clean and easy - this would limit what it could hit and remove 10+ damage per round from even an optimal throwing dagger user. It retains its str bonus and its extra attack which still makes it an amazing weapon - just that dual wielding (which is much higher risk and therefore should be higher reward) would gain relative power. If you take away an attack per round its basically just a sling - which makes that solution not reasonable. The point is not to nerf it into oblivion but rather to allow it to remain a compelling choice without it being so dominant.

    woowoovoodoo
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    @Tredvolt Alright, let's do the math and compare early-game damage setups.

    A: Boomerang Dagger - 2d4+2
    B: Flail of Ages+3 / Belm+2 - 1d6+3+1+1+1 / 1d8+2

    Kensai 9 with Grand Mastery in the respective MH

    Let's look at APR.

    A: 1.5 base (Fighter 7+) + 1 throwing + 1 Grand Mastery = 3.5
    B: 1.5 base (Fighter 7+) + 1 dual-wield + 1 Grand Mastery + 1 Belm = 4.5 (3.5 MH)

    As you can see, we can compare MH vs. MH easily, and take the OH as simply a bonus on top; even if the OH hits 0 times, it would at worst be equal APR.

    A is 2d4+2 = 4-10 = 7 average damage per hit
    B is 1d6+3+1+1+1 = 1d6+6 = 7-12 = 9.5 average damage per hit

    That's 35.7% more base damage for B *without* any OH damage at all.

    But that's not all. A is missile and piercing damage, which are the most resisted damage types. B is blunt damage, which is the least resisted, and also 3 points of elemental damage, which will pierce things like Stoneskin etc. In addition, B has a chance for an on-hit Slow, which further increases damage, and also a +1 THAC0 advantage.

    Your argument, if I understood correctly, is that A is still superior because:

    - you lose damage getting into melee
    - you lose damage from spending ** or more in Two-Weapon Fighting

    You're right on both counts. However, it is a very minor difference. Haste is ubiquitous in BG2, even before you get Boots of Speed (of which there are several). Fights usually take place in fairly confined areas, and don't involve a lot of running around.
    As for the second point, what do you lose out on? The backstab increase is minute at best, not to mention that this entire point only stands until you get more proficiency points at which point it becomes entirely moot because you have so many redundant points at later levels.

    You would have to make up not only 35.7% of base damage EVERY hit, but also the damage from the OH hits (which isn't much, but not insignificant; it's about ~10% of total base damage). I would strongly argue that this just isn't realistic.

    Also note that this is a pre-Underdark comparison ONLY, which HEAVILY favors throwing daggers already because you essentially get the best/2nd best weapons there. Later on, they do not improve AT ALL, while dual-wield continues to improve all the way into late ToB. Not to mention that throwing only partially benefits from the many STR increases at late game, while melee gets the full bonus (there are no comparable increases for DEX).

    I keep hearing of the power of throwing daggers, but so far I just cannot see why they would be better than properly geared/played melee - i.e. IF you know how to control incoming damage. However, even with SCS on LoB I found it quite feasible to properly tank, and control many enemies well enough to make melee attackers viable without being tanks themselves.

    Kaigen
  • comebackhomecomebackhome Member Posts: 254
    I love this theory crafting it's great :)

  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    @Lord_Tansheron Even if I agree with you, it's a bit unfair to compare the raw damage of the weapons while many bonuses will apply and reduce the difference percentage wise.

    You should atleast apply Kensai bonuses, strength (let's say 19) and GM which will add 15 damage without anything else.

    In that case FoA only has about 10% more damage than the throwing dagger.

    Anyway, the early game is the hardest part of the game, so favoring utility and survability at this moment seems interesting to me.

    FinneousPJ
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    edited April 2016
    Gotural said:

    In that case FoA only has about 10% more damage than the throwing dagger.

    That's true, but the reason I went with my comparison is that the example given was focused on early game only. As items are weaker there, even small differences are significant - simply because there are no huge differences for cases where a comparison is even feasible to make. (Not to mention that this was MH only, and completely disregarding the OH; things add up)

    Once you get into late game, it really is no contest. Comparing a +3 SoA dagger to a fully upgraded ToB +5 weapon is never a fair fight.
    Gotural said:

    Anyway, the early game is the hardest part of the game, so favoring utility and survability at this moment seems interesting to me.

    While you can absolutely make this argument, keep in mind that the given case involves Grand Mastery. A 5-point investment is no trivial matter that you can just use early game and then discard (for a dual-class anyway). It's very different from, say, a multi-class Fighter where you are capped at 2 and have pips to spare left and right.
    Plus, it's actually not THAT big a deal to melee in early game if you tank properly. Yes SCS scripts are smarter at changing targets, but they're not immune to tanking. You can still use proximity dancing etc. to make sure the right target gets hit in melee.

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 5,974
    I changed the topic line to reflect recent updates.

    Goturaljackjack
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    Based on feedback here and my own experiences, I've now gone with another run and revised my party setup somewhat. This is what I'm currently trying:

    Fighter/Cleric (tank, with shield)
    Fighter/Illusionist/Thief (tank/damage, dual-wield)
    Wizard Slayer 9 -> Druid (Sling)
    Skald
    Archer (Crossbow/Shortbow)
    Archer (Longbow/Sling)

    I must revise my opinion on the Skald somewhat, as it has proven to perform better than expected. The main reason seems to be the THAC0 bonus, as hitting is actually a problem in LoB due to the long fights (you could afford misses in regular a lot more easily). Another reason is that it actually frees up space to properly tank with the 2 melees, while the ranged deliver from safety. This has proven quite effective in many situations, as two characters can enable you to do some clever position play without getting in each other's way too often (a really annoying problem with 3+ melee).

    As I considered a while ago, I did end up replacing the Inquisitor with a FMT and have not regretted it yet. Dispel Illusions works fine when needed, and I also noticed that SR's Invisibility Purge is actually a mini-True Sight, too, with periodic dispels over a few rounds (only invisibility, though, no illusions). Together, they are an entirely adequate substitute for Inquisitor True Sight, and the Inquisitor Dispel never worked anyway. Perhaps I'll end up missing it at high levels, when it would actually have a chance of doing something, but so far I am happy with the change.

    WS->Druid still does what it's supposed to, though I am getting majorly annoyed by the Miscast not working against divine spells. Divine casters of various varieties have become a major pain in my backside, also because they tend to all come with Physical Mirror prebuffs that make "regular" interrupts nearly impossible until dispelled (and require two dispels at higher levels because of Shield of Archons). Fire Seeds penetrates it, which is something at least and the reason I stuck to Druid dual instead of Mage.

    Speaking of interrupts, I have now confirmed that several spells seem to be hard-scripted, likely by SCS but possibly by something else as well (though I'm only running SCS, IR, and SR right now). I've found that even things like knockback or pushback don't seem to stop those spells from going off (and I'm talking actual cast-time spells, not contingencies). Highly annoying, but I suppose it would be too easy otherwise. I have started memorizing Dispelling Screens and use them gratuitously to block Dispel Magic (the most relevant offender), as I'm relying a lot on buffs.

    The 3(4) ranged + 2 tank setup I find myself liking a whole lot. Whatever doubts I might have had about 2 Archers, I now don't think I want to run without them anymore. I did have to go with Crossbow on one for the time being, though, as otherwise I would indeed be running out of decent ammo (at least until I got the quiver in WK). I do plan on transitioning that to a bow, though, since Crossbows continue to suffer from APR limitations under IR (even with GWW). Sling on Archer is something I'm holding in reserve to try out, pips enough to spare are not an issue. Might have to wait until the upgraded Erinne Sling, though, which does come with sweet graphics and an even sweeter Sarevok-style BOOM proc (thanks to IR).

    I've gone through most side-quests before Underdark now without too much trouble. The only pinch was TorGal (my old nemesis) where after a good two hours I gave up, just killed him, and then ran. I was at ~1m XP per character at that point, which was probably just too low to take on that silly room of 10+ enemies coming at you all at once (including two mages). With more XP this should be much more doable, but my time is limited and I am impatient. No loot to grab there, anyway.

    I have not faced Firkraag yet, who honestly scares me a little. This will be a battle requiring proper preparation, so I'll save it for last before I head to Spellhold. Planar Sphere and Planar Prison are still left, as well as the Shadow Dungeon (which I tend to do after the Underdark anyway due to multiple liches). I'll see how it goes, but so far I am liking the setup a fair bit.

    BTW, I am still not using summons, but I have a feeling that for someone without such reservations a high ranged damage setup with summon tanks might be the optimal approach. I wonder if Shaman actually has a use in that respect...?

    FinneousPJwoowoovoodoo
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 5,974
    @Lord_Tansheron BTW, are you using the Inquisitor nerf from SCS? Or is it vanilla 2x level?

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    edited April 2016

    @Lord_Tansheron BTW, are you using the Inquisitor nerf from SCS? Or is it vanilla 2x level?

    Vanilla x2, but even then it has a fairly low hit rate at early/mid game levels. Considering that is usually the toughest part, I'm not sure it's worth taking an Inquisitor along even if it ends up working more reliably at late game.

    Post edited by Lord_Tansheron on
    FinneousPJ
  • TredvoltTredvolt Member Posts: 62


    Fighter/Cleric (tank, with shield)
    Fighter/Illusionist/Thief (tank/damage, dual-wield)
    Wizard Slayer 9 -> Druid (Sling)
    Skald
    Archer (Crossbow/Shortbow)
    Archer (Longbow/Sling)

    I like your setup a lot better now. I still don't like 6 characters though as I think one should always leave a spot open to invite NPCs and one day I'll talk you into dropping to 5!

    Pretty much everything here to me seems as I run the same exact setup minus the 2 extra characters (archer and druid) but I have said on multiple occasions that if I had a 5th it would be an Archer. As you mentioned characters (especially melee) get jumbled up and it can be quite annoying. I found that in addition to this the feel of a 4 person party was much nicer - but this is certainly just a preference thing.

    On the topic of preference, everyone has their own flavor of thief they like to bring along. I think the one you have there is an extremely good option although it is technically illegal as you can't have a f/m/t gnome or any f/m/t with shorty bonuses for that matter, not to mention getting the extra spell per level from a specialist to boot. I really really wish gnomes could be fmts because i would probably run that same thief throughout the entire trilogy too. I might even try to justify it on my next playthrough.

    Alternative Thieves

    fighter/thief - dwarf or halfling
    fighter/mage/thief - half elf (eww)
    kensai->thief - human

    If you use this as a secondary tank - which is a good idea - especially if you are dual wielding, then the kensai isn't a reasonable option. The fighter/thief dwarf is probably the best bet for the saving throw bonuses. If we are willing to bend the rules a bit though the fighter->swashbuckler I think got unanimous agreement for power.

    Let us know how the run finishes up when you have the time. And just for fun if you had to drop 1 character out of this group which would it be based on their performances this run? Also could you post the kill percentages. I know that data isn't the most concrete for comparison but it is interesting to see.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    Tredvolt said:

    I still don't like 6 characters though as I think one should always leave a spot open to invite NPCs

    My party is all NPCs, I simply mod them to custom characters. More interesting with banter, romance, and such. The quests and character-specific items hardly matter (save for Edwin, who I don't take along for balance reasons).
    Tredvolt said:

    and one day I'll talk you into dropping to 5!

    While 4-5 may be optimal in regular, I cannot believe that it would be in LoB. Since enemies don't scale with your party size, every extra member is a damage upgrade - even accounting for the XP penalty. This is even more true with a Skald around.
    Tredvolt said:

    it is technically illegal as you can't have a f/m/t gnome or any f/m/t with shorty bonuses for that matter, not to mention getting the extra spell per level from a specialist to boot. I really really wish gnomes could be fmts because i would probably run that same thief throughout the entire trilogy too. I might even try to justify it on my next playthrough.

    That is an oversight on my part, then. I was under the impression Gnomes could be FMTs and would end up as FITs. I'll edit the character to something else, then.
    Tredvolt said:

    The fighter/thief dwarf is probably the best bet for the saving throw bonuses. If we are willing to bend the rules a bit though the fighter->swashbuckler I think got unanimous agreement for power.

    F->Swash is ridiculously OP. I tested it extensively and the damage it deals at late game is just unreal. Not going for that.

    F/T dwarf sounds nice, but you cannot miss out on a mage tank, imo. It is just too good at tanking hard-hitting enemies. Remember that you aren't automatically crit-immune under IR, I've been crit for over 100 damage by golems - not something you can afford to have happen. Golems, dragons, etc. I just tank with a mage, secure in the knowledge that no hit will get through unless I actively mess up. For most other chaff, though, AC tanking seems more efficient (which is what the F/C does).
    Tredvolt said:

    Let us know how the run finishes up when you have the time. And just for fun if you had to drop 1 character out of this group which would it be based on their performances this run? Also could you post the kill percentages. I know that data isn't the most concrete for comparison but it is interesting to see.

    Nearly done with everything pre-Underdark now (saving WK for after so I don't steamroll too much).

    These are the stats:

    F/C: 15% of kills
    FMT: 22% of kills
    Skald: 0% of kills
    WS->D: 12% of kills
    Archer1: 24% of kills
    Archer2: 25% of kills

    Note that the FMT data is skewed because she's using Flame Tongue to finish off trolls, earning a lot of kills specifically on her. I have no idea why it doesn't add up to 100% (NPC kills? rounding errors?).

    FinneousPJ
  • OtherguyOtherguy Member Posts: 157
    Sorry guys, I don't really know where to post this but here goes. I can't get patch 2.1 to work with scs. It cant install the AI improvements properly. I am using the fix that @subtledoctor was kind enough to provide and I get it to work with 2.0, sadly not very LoB friendly that patch though.

    Did a reinstall of both BG2EE and scs (with fixes) and still couldn't get it to work with 2.1 but works just fine with 2.0. Should I reinstall scs without the fixes? Any ideas?

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    @Otherguy Are you sure you got all of the fixes? There was one post that linked an incomplete version, not sure if it's been edited by now. I used his fixes and had no trouble at all installing on 2.1.

  • OtherguyOtherguy Member Posts: 157
    @Lord_Tansheron there were four files I think. Worked like a charm for 2.0 for me. I have a hard time understanding why it would work with 2.0 but not 2.1...

    ciriack
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    Otherguy said:

    @Lord_Tansheron there were four files I think. Worked like a charm for 2.0 for me. I have a hard time understanding why it would work with 2.0 but not 2.1...

    There is no reason there should be a difference, I used the same files and it worked on both. Anyway, this is off-topic, ask in one of the threads that deal with that specific issue.

  • ciriackciriack Member Posts: 1
    I'm starting up a new playthrough on NMM and I have a couple of questions for you all...

    1. Lord_Tansheron mentions early on that he usually plays custom classes "grafted onto NPCs".
    Does this mean you play through the game recruiting NPCs like normal then change their classes/attributes/kits/whatever using EEKeeper? Or, do you create an initial party of 6, then somehow "graft" a specific NPC script onto each character?
    ex. I create an Archer, then assign the "Korgan AI" to it, so the game acts as if the Archer is the NPC Korgan.

    2. I would imagine that the answer to the previous questions is that recruited NPCs are modded using EEKeeper, so my next question is, is there a mod that allows you to start Irenicus' dungeon with NPCs in your party, or do you have to go through recruiting each one? ex. starting with CHARNAME, Viconia modded using EEKeeper to a F/C, Edwin modded to a FMT, Saervok modded to an archer, etc.

    NMM is tough, but I also don't want to lose out on playing with the "NPCs", for game flavor, unique items/abilities, NPC specific quests, etc.

    Thanks in advance, and I'll be glad to start a new thread rather than using this one if requested.

    FinneousPJGotural
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 10,973
    The extra XP from LoB mode isn't enough to guarantee a party has HLAs in Chapter 2. I did almost all of the Chapter 2 and 3 quests, only leaving Watcher's Keep, Kangaxx, the Twisted Rune, and the Guarded Compound, and my party of 6 still only had a little over 2 million XP in Brynnlaw.

    LoB mode gives at most double the XP of normal mode, because so much XP in BG2 comes from quests rather than combat.

    FinneousPJ
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 5,974
    @ciriack I believe he would put a new class on an existing NPC.

    Gozeta
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    @semiticgod As far as I know, LoB doesn't give any additional XP. It is Nightmare Mode which gives XP * 2 + 1000 which is half the bonus from HoF because it doesn't include the *2 multiplier from insane mode in IWD.

    FinneousPJ
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    Gotural said:

    @semiticgod As far as I know, LoB doesn't give any additional XP. It is Nightmare Mode which gives XP * 2 + 1000 which is half the bonus from HoF because it doesn't include the *2 multiplier from insane mode in IWD.

    I believe there are two variables in baldur.lua that govern this. By default, there is no LoB xp increase and no difficulty-based xp increase, but you can turn on either if you so wish by changing the corresponding variable.

    I am still experimenting with what setting I like best. I do believe that SOME bonus xp is warranted to not make LoB a boring grind, but I also do agree that full-on bonuses to the point of HLAs in early game is likely not an optimal experience either. I'd love to tweak this option more, particularly the static modifier.
    ciriack said:

    1. Lord_Tansheron mentions early on that he usually plays custom classes "grafted onto NPCs".
    Does this mean you play through the game recruiting NPCs like normal then change their classes/attributes/kits/whatever using EEKeeper? Or, do you create an initial party of 6, then somehow "graft" a specific NPC script onto each character?
    ex. I create an Archer, then assign the "Korgan AI" to it, so the game acts as if the Archer is the NPC Korgan.

    The former. Recruit as normal, then change the stats to match what I want them to be.
    ciriack said:

    2. I would imagine that the answer to the previous questions is that recruited NPCs are modded using EEKeeper, so my next question is, is there a mod that allows you to start Irenicus' dungeon with NPCs in your party, or do you have to go through recruiting each one? ex. starting with CHARNAME, Viconia modded using EEKeeper to a F/C, Edwin modded to a FMT, Saervok modded to an archer, etc.

    No mod that I know of, but it's not unthinkable that someone wrote one. I do have to go through recruiting whoever I want the regular way, which also means no Sarevok in SoA (which would probably be OP). It also means that some NPCs are tougher to get to than others,



    Didn't have much time to play last weekend, but hopefully next I will get to see some more action. Many questions left open still, many things to explore.

  • mackosmackos Member Posts: 188
    ok, i tried legacy of bhaal for my bgee run and i have few questions

    1. I've noticed that some spells with mental effects can be resisted by LoB enemies. Sometime enemy falls under the effect of (eq) blind, sometime they do a succesfull saving throw which is showed in dialog box but they occasionally do not fall under the blind effect neither make a saving throw. So i assume they resisted the spell with no need to make a saving throw. Am i right? Wand of sleep (which is not a sleep spell so high level enemies should be affected) does not work at all on LoB.
    2. Does LoB mode change sth more than increasing monsters thaco, level, apr etc? some major figths update or sth? smarter AI?
    3. Does LoB increase traps, thieving and locks difficulty?

    FinneousPJ
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 5,974
    @mackos

    1. Both successful saving throws and spell resistance should show in the combat log. I am not sure if level-based immunity does.
    2. No, I believe it does not. Certainly not AI.
    3. I doubt it.

    mackosJuliusBorisov
  • uzokiuzoki Member Posts: 2
    Hello, long time BG-player but new to the forums (so im not sure if this is the correct place to post this...). I'm doing a playthrough of LoB, but I've hit a roadblock... No matter what I do I just CAN'T BEAT THE MUMMY on level 4 of watcher's keep! What should I do?

    FinneousPJ
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 5,974
    @uzoki Tell a bit more about your team and its resources.

    JuliusBorisov
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087

    @uzoki Tell a bit more about your team and its resources.

    I believe he is referring to the mummy in the Spirit Warrior minigame, which doesn't really care about your party.

    Shouldn't really scale with LoB imo that's just not designed for it.

    semiticgodFinneousPJ
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 10,973
    @uzoki @Lord_Tansheron: Unfortunately, it doesn't scale at all. I've heard the Spirit Warrior challenge is a nightmare in Legacy of Bhaal because the fight takes so long and the game's other rewards, like the wand of missiles, do not scale up. Which means that in LoB, the Spirit Warrior is effectively fighting the Mummy as if it had never gotten the wand or any bonuses from the other rooms.

    You can consult a walkthrough for a list of the bonuses that you can get in that area before the fight with the mummy, but I believe that it really is mostly luck in LoB. You just need to try again and hope for better rolls.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087

    @uzoki @Lord_Tansheron: Unfortunately, it doesn't scale at all.

    I mean, it shouldn't scale its HP with the LoB multiplier; it does, and that's annoying because the minigame isn't exactly set up to handle that.

    semiticgod
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