@Myrag: To answer all three questions: both, yes, and no.
You can see all the various effects of luck in @Alonso's old luck thread.
1. Luck does affect attack rolls, so critters with 100 intoxication (the maximum amount, which Wish imposes) suffer a -12 penalty to all attack rolls. 2. Luck also affects weapon damage rolls, so even when they do land a hit, they'll be doing much less physical damage. 3. Luck does not affect outgoing spell damage rolls, though. If the enemy has -12 luck, its Fireballs will still deal the normal damage to you. 4. But luck does affect incoming spell damage rolls. If the enemy has -12 luck, it will take maximum damage from your Fireballs.
Positive luck does the opposite (boosts attack rolls, boosts weapon damage, minimizes incoming spell damage but doesn't affect outgoing spell damage), but intoxication only applies luck penalties; never bonuses.
Of course, Wish intoxication is party-unfriendly, and magic resistance won't block it. SI: Enchantment can block it, and MGOI might be able to block it (it strikes as a level 3 spell), but since SI isn't available in SR, @Lord_Tansheron wouldn't be able to use it. However, I'm pretty sure intoxication can be cured in SR/IR. My memory is fuzzy, but the cure should be one or more of these things:
Slow Poison Neutralize Poison Elixir of Health Heal (Greater) Restoration
There's also Impregnable Mind, a spell from some mod or another (maybe the IWD spell pack?) which grants immunity to intoxication outright.
Dispel Magic can also cure Wish intoxication, though there is unfortunately no version of Dispel Magic that would affect your allies but fail to affect your enemies, so it would have to be aimed carefully, unless you're using Arrows of Dispelling, Carsomyr, or the Staff of the Magi (which still dispels magic without a saving throw even in Item Revisions!).
This reminded me of something I noticed a while back and I took a look at an unmodded game just to make sure. All healing spells have a Cure: Intoxication effect. I've never tried it but in theory you could probably just cast Mass Cure to heal off the drunkenness of your whole party.
@Artemius_I: Wow, when did that happen? I remember searching through Near Infinity for the Remove Intoxication opcode and there were only a few spells that did it. But now that I check it again, my heavily modded BG2 2.4 install and my relatively unmodded IWD 1.4 install both have Remove Intoxication opcodes applied to healing spells, including Mass Cure!
@semiticgod I have indeed considered Sorcerer, however so far it seems like the tanking part isn't actually the problem. As I mentioned, Firkraag actually died on the first try without a hitch so even dragons work just fine with the tank setup I have. If there is something that's giving me problems still it's the same as always: casters of all flavors. Every fight just rises and falls with how well I can control the spellcasters. While Sorcerer can be great with dispelling etc., I'm just worried about the damage output. There are some priority targets that just need to die quickly, and Sorcerer isn't exactly a damage machine. Still, it's on the list - you probably know I don't (ab)use Wish resting, but there are enough powerful things to do with it for sure. Also I have not had time to exhaustively test the endgame, since most runs just end around the Underdark for time reasons. It's very possible that come ToB I change my mind and may want a Sorcerer around.
@Myrag I considered a Dwarven Defender, but the damage numbers just seem to high to me even with damage reduction. Considering the extra APR/THAC0 on enemies in LoB, you would be torn apart until you can really stack that DR in large amounts - and that's not easy under IR, considering things like Defender of Easthaven don't actually add DR there. Having an extra caster is also nice, especially since arcane magic isn't all that useful in terms of damage output under SR/IR (no more IH doubling APR, for example) so you may not want it on your damage dealers.
The more I think about it, though, the more I'm missing my cleric. I do like not relying on dispellable buffs too much, but the cleric spells just seem so much more useful than druid. What is there even to use as a druid that's really good? Stoneskin is good but somewhat redundant with a heavy tank setup. Summons I still do not like. Insects are mostly blocked by all the elemental shields SCS casters start with (not to mention all the dangerous casters are practically guaranteed to always make their save vs. spell). I really, really try to make druid work but I just cannot find the right angle, it seems.
Antidote potions do not remove intoxication. My drunk run had the intention to cure drunkenness once in a while but it unfortunately failed with simple potions .
Smashed through the Underdark now, no Ust Natha defenses this time though (I would need some dedicated time for that one). The party is still holding up as expected, but I am increasingly convinced that Druid was a mistake. I just never use the spells, and never find myself missing them. Thief is also very underwhelming, particularly with a bow. You really need some form of damage bonus to make missile weapons worth it, I feel, so either STR bonus has to apply or it has to be something like Archer kit bonus. I've also thought about the merits of Fighter/Mage multi instead of a dual combo. Originally I had thought that HLAs would be worth it, since Hardiness seems great for tanking and all. But now I'm realizing that the key is probably just to avoid getting hit in the first place as much as possible. Not that damage resistance is useless, of course (sometimes you DO get hit) but its efficacy seems highly diminished by all the defensive buffs. SR in particular adds some fairly powerful ones, like Moment of Prescience or Ghost Form, which are real nice in a pinch - alongside the usual SS, PfMW, and friends, of course. It's possible Berserker9->Mage could just be better at tanking, though it's probably very close. GM certainly isn't a huge argument anymore, both because of the more defense-oriented focus and the fact that you don't double-dip into extra APR with Improved Haste.
With that in mind, a refined approach would probably look like this:
Weapon choices reflect IR behaviors regarding STR bonuses and weapon stats. STR does not apply to daggers and slings in IR (with the exception of Sling of Force and Everard's Sling), but it does to hammers and Crom Faeyr can be thrown. It also applies for spears, and there are some great thrown ones in IR. Talos' Fury is available immediately, and Impaler is pretty amazing with 1d8+3+1d10 per hit (same average damage as FoA+5!).
I may try this setup next, or I may go into some other direction entirely for testing purposes (it's a very similar setup to my current active one after all) given the limited time. I will definitely not abandon the current run despite its flaws, though, so I can get some experience with endgame/ToB rather than just early/mid SoA as I usually do.
...or I might just throw in the towel and ragequit it all because of those STUPID IMMORTAL 1HP TROLLS. Honestly, does anyone know a fix for this stupid broken behavior of trolls not falling down when they're at 1HP? It's driving me up the wall, there's times where they are alive at 1HP for twice as long as they are on full HP, just because the script or whatever doesn't quite take. This is literally my single greatest source of frustration right now, and the biggest gripe I have with the entire game. RAGE.
I myself rolled back to save before dualing WS to druid. Took me an evening to get back through durlag tower and rest of the game. Now my WS is dualed to cleric. Let's see how it plays out. Starting SOD again in couple of minutes.
I was thinking of maybe dualing WS to thief so I could pass on FMT in favor of other classes... might need divine caster though as I would still need one.. let's go as it is for now.
I always love your powergaming playthrough @Lord_Tansheron but I've never felt like changing spells/items/classes through mods is something I wanted to use. I only use mods that either add quests/tweak QoL stuff/add difficulty. This is what makes me sad because your setups usually won't work or won't be as strong for regular LOB/SCS/Ascension playthroughs. Understandable though as you probably played the game so much it just feels like a must.
Stop attacking, then they fall down and you can kill them.... At least that works for me.
I only wish it was that simple, I've literally kited some of them without attacking for a good half minute without them ever falling down (and yes, they were on low enough HP to return 'immune to damage' on hit). Heck I've even had some of them stay up long enough for the complete regeneration to kick in, bringing them back to 100% instantly without them ever falling down. It's aggravating to say the least.
I've never felt like changing spells/items/classes through mods is something I wanted to use. I only use mods that either add quests/tweak QoL stuff/add difficulty.
That's the very REASON I mod items and spells, though. IR and SR for the most part make things more difficult and more complex, rather than easier (though not universally so, I suppose). IR in particular tones down weapon power considerably, moving many pieces down an enchantment level and making them less flat-out powerful with more differentiated effects (FoA+5 for example is nowhere near as ridiculous in IR as it is in vanilla). SR also adds a lot more options for friend and foe alike, and does away with things like Improved Haste doubling APR which is one of THE most powerful things you can do in the vanilla game and changes the entire approach to party building.
But all that being said, mods are and always will be personal preference. I am very particular about what I like and what I use, and I self-police quite rigorously. I already mentioned, for example, that I don't use summons or Wish-resting, which when you look at it objectively are two incredibly powerful strategies in LoB. Too powerful for my taste, but that's just that - my personal preference. There's nothing wrong with different people liking different things, but I still think there's value in sharing what you like. Not to force other people to like the same (as I am sometimes accused of, for whatever reason) but to INSPIRE them to expand their own palate. I know I've done it many times. Taste is all well and good, but it's not written in stone. Change is great!
So, finally finished ToB for once, and actually completed a run.
It went about as expected, with no major surprises. As levels progressed the Inquisitor got more and more powerful, and it was nice to couple a fully buffed tank with Dispelling Screen with a virtually guaranteed Dispel Magic in all enemies. Turns out mage buffs are quite powerful when it comes to defense, who knew!
What was a bit of a letdown, though, was the damage output. This was not entirely unexpected, of course, given that ranged tends to fall behind potential melee damage with sick endgame weapons. Not to mention that several enemies seem to be resistant to missile and/or piercing damage, which really made some fights a chore (golems in particular).
It seems that this is primarily a result of me making choices based around early/midgame, where defense is the main concern and missile damage is still very strong (arguably stronger than melee, considering some of the sick bows/crossbows available super early). Once you stock up on more gear, though, it's possible that a shift towards more melee may be more beneficial even if it makes tanking more difficult. I did find myself switching the Inquisitor over to Carsomyr a good number of times, it being 2h with wide reach sure helped with that, though.
The Druid was, as already mentioned, extremely underwhelming. Until someone teaches me the secret of how to actually get any real use out of this class, I'm just going to shelve it. Interestingly enough, the Wizard Slayer half of that combo was also not overly impressive. Despite the higher HP on everything, mages were generally finished once I got through their defenses, so the miscast effect was actually largely irrelevant. Of course, when going for a ranged Fighter dual you might as well go WS simply because the others are fairly terrible at ranged so it's just a free bonus I suppose.
I'm similarly disappointed with the Assassin->Fighter. Poison just isn't what it used to be, and the lack of damage modifiers for the ranged attack really became noticeable. Maybe I shouldn't have gone for bows with this but thrown, but even with STR bonuses it would not be all that impressive I don't think. Thieving skills were useful as always, but probably largely superfluous. Considering you can walk around most traps and use Battering Ram to pop doors/boxes (and Inquisitor True Sight to dispel illusions), a Thief may just not be necessary.
Another thing I noticed very strongly as the game progressed was the APR limitations created by IR/SR. Somehow I think I was still in the mindset of Improved-Haste-fueled 10 APR killing machines from the olden days, but you actually cap out very early now (note that IR also tones down rates-of-fire on some ranged weapons). 9/2 APR is basically as good as it gets, with 5 reserved to either very weak weapons (e.g. darts) or the one pair of +1/2 APR gloves on the right character. That in turn makes Whirlwind Attack very, very good and, consequently, weakens dual-class setups without access to the Fighter HLAs (there's also the Bracers of the Blinding Strike which double APR once per day for 3 rounds, sort of a super WW). Considering the heavy tank focus of my setup, I could basically take GWW on every single level-up, resulting in a chain of 10 APR rounds that proved quite the output machine. Unfortunately this seems to just not work with IR crossbows due to the hard reload period, which effectively caps their APR at a maximum of about ~2.5-3 (hard to tell, it seems a bit inconsistent with round timers). They do hit hard, though, so this makes them very strong at early game (where APR are in that range anyway) but drop off later on as APR increase.
Looking back at the experience, I think I'd revise my setup in several ways. I do like the general paradigm of tanking - a lot. It made many fights considerably less of a hassle, and I love the way it makes you worry about micro for positioning, choke points, peeling off, etc. The AI seems in a great place between threatening to go for weak members, and being actually tankable. However, I think I want to find a way to handle the sort of mid/endgame transition where ranged damage drops off, by introducing more melee capability at that point. I also want to make sure that I get Fighter HLAs where I can, because GWW is probably just that good. Also, ranged weapons will be restricted to those that get some sort of damage bonus - either through being an Archer, or through getting STR damage. A preliminary setup could look like this:
#1 Tank - Fighter/Mage/Cleric
I'm happy with how my tank turned out, however Cleric spells do have their uses here and there. Chaotic Commands and Defensive Harmony in particular seem very useful, and DuHM/Righteous Magic are perennial favorites (the damage output of the tank is actually fairly decent, mine was about on par with the non-archers for kill %). The lower levels on the triple class shouldn't matter too much, as most of the utility is mid-level heavy rather than coming at high levels. As long as you can chain Stoneskins, Mirror Images, and Dispelling Screens, you're good. Lvl 6+ spells are just icing on the cake.
#2 Support - Skald
Unchanged. I continue to be impressed with this class, and with its role in the party. There's actually a fair number of utility items that are a perfect fit for a class like this, such as Blade of Roses (+1 to rolls for allies in 20yd) or the various +caster level items that are otherwise weak but great on someone who doesn't actually fight but does a lot of buffing.
#3 Dispel - Inquisitor
I was off Inquisitor for a while, but it's back with a vengeance! Great tool in many ways. The synergy between dispelling and a dispel-immune tank is the core strategy for many fights, plus its basically exactly what I want: someone who can go ranged early in the game, and then switch to a powerful melee weapon later on as needed (Carsomyr+5 is probably the highest average damage weapon in the game, considering there are so few enemies that are NOT evil).
#4 Secondary Tank/DPS - Fighter/???
This is the big open slot. I want someone who can deal good damage at ranged, but can transition to enough resilience later on to make use of the insane melee weapons that become available. For that reason, it's likely that I want a Fighter multiclass of some kind - but WHAT kind? Another Fighter/Mage? A Fighter/Mage/Thief for UAI so I can grab SNT? Or maybe not a multi but a dual TO Fighter? Reviving the old Priest of Lathander 9 -> Fighter perhaps for DuHM (caps at lvl 9 anyway under SR) and Boon of Lathander while also retaining Fighter HLAs? Or Swashbuckler->Fighter, another classic (does the Swash bonus apply to thrown weapons?)? Stuff to ponder.
#5 Archer #6 Archer
I'm so sorry, Archers. I thought I could do with only one of you for a moment. Clearly I was mistaken. Come back in, second Archer, and never leave me again!
As always, comments are appreciated and encouraged. I'm not sure when I'll next have time to do a full run again (minor miracle I got this week free), but I'll try to fit some playtime in when I can. I'd also like to once again thank @Demivrgvs specifically for IR/SR and the great things it does that I'm still discovering (like the many tank-friendly backlash items, those are amazing additions!). IR and SR really have become the new standard for me that I am never going to do without anymore.
How about Blade for your open slot? Defensive spin combined with mage buffs would make it perfect to hold a choke point. You won't get as much melee damage as a fighter, but it could still be respectable there, while offering you the utility of thieving abilities and spike traps as an alternative means of solving some encounters.
How about Blade for your open slot? Defensive spin combined with mage buffs would make it perfect to hold a choke point. You won't get as much melee damage as a fighter, but it could still be respectable there, while offering you the utility of thieving abilities and spike traps as an alternative means of solving some encounters.
Capping AC (or nearly) isn't actually that difficult even without Spin. The main thing I'm looking for in a secondary tank/damage slot is actual damage output. The tanking capability is secondary, and mainly intended as personal resilience against stray hits. To that end, Blade isn't the greatest, since Offensive Spin only adds 1 APR but precludes use of Haste - which is also +1 APR. I'd rather have a Fighter/Mage than a Blade, then.
Right now I'm considering:
Swashbuckler 10 -> Fighter +2 damage/hit on top of 100 in traps, locks, and illusions. A bit high on the dual but from what I just experienced I'd rather shift the weight a bit towards the higher end of the level spectrum rather than early game. The utility choice for thief QoL, mostly.
Priest of Lathander 9 -> Fighter Some nice APR and maximum DuHM for +3 STR, which is a decent damage boost (+3 or more, depending on my eSTR roll). Also gives some extra buffing utility.
Fighter/Mage Boring, plain, effective. Mage defenses make getting in there a non-issue even relatively early on. Could easily become an almost fully-fledged tank if needed. Also adds more dispels etc. to combat mages (chaining Breaches happens a lot against all those PfMW/SS contingencies/sequencers).
Fighter/Thief Mainly for UAI, the value of which I still find overrated. There are some interesting utility items to use, though, as well some great weapons like Purifier or Scarlet Ninja-to. Thief QoL is included, but defenses are low which worries me a little. Then again: this setup can actually backstab and lay Spike Traps (which I'd honestly rather not use, they're just too silly).
I was thinking of the blade's defensive spin as being helpful during the earlier stages of the game. If your main focus is offensive capability in the late game, then have you thought about a monk? Without improved haste for fighters, high level monks are going to give you better melee damage than any of your choices above.
I was thinking of the blade's defensive spin as being helpful during the earlier stages of the game. If your main focus is offensive capability in the late game, then have you thought about a monk? Without improved haste for fighters, high level monks are going to give you better melee damage than any of your choices above.
I'm looking for both. At early game, death is always around the corner - safety is a priority until you can get decent levels and equipment. Once you're kitted out, it gets easier to hold your own in melee without risk of dying every 2 seconds because a golem decides to turn around. For that reason, ideally I would want to go ranged attack first, then transition into melee.
Monks do have decent damage output, primarily thanks to Gauntlets of Aln Zekk/Gauntlets of Crushing and SNT. I gave them a try early on in LoB for that very reason, however I found that their defenses are just unacceptably weak. They have very little they can do not to get smashed in the face by every little thing, as AC just does not cut it with LoB thac0 and enemy APR values. Running away when they are targeted to reset aggro on the tank is one way to go about it, however that severely impacts their damage output - at which point I might as well use something else with lower per-hit damage but higher uptime (and thus higher total output). Even Darkmoon Blur and Mirror Image do not help too much, as both are once per day only and fights last very long in LoB (plus dispel is rampant).
Even though in IR not every slings has strength bonus, there's still the sling of Seeking for a PoL-->fighter, like you suggested. It's pretty much the best range character in the game. It's a late bloomer though, but it also gives you some utility through cleric spells.
Also, you had doubts earlier about the Dwarven Defender, but I can tell you that they're highly effective even on LoB. I used one on a solo no-reload SCS-LoB, and they can facetank effectively even at lower levels, because of their massive hp pool and insane DR. I can only imagine what a DD fully buffed by arcane and divine magic would do (SR Champion's strength on a DD ? Yes please !!). Also, don't forget about the bonus to saving throws granted by Defensive Stance. In conjunction with the shorty bonus, your fighter is now much sturdier when facing magic, even against the heavy saving throws penalty to spells that SR adds.
Otherwise, there's always a summoning character, like a Totemic Druid, a Shaman of even a Conjurer. More bodies is always welcome, even if I think you said you didn't like summons (was it you ?).
@Arctodus Yes, I refuse to use summons on personal grounds, as their higher HP on LoB has too much cheese potential for my taste. But that's just preference, of course. Objectively you could probably just tank with swarms of buffed summons to box in just about any enemy incapable of teleportation.
As for DD, it certainly has its allure. The main issue to me is that it's just too easy to tank without ever actually taking any damage if you go with mage spells, giving you a virtual 100% damage reduction and without any downsides - the main one being that DD forces you to either dual (so no fighter HLAs) or single-class (so no mage buffs). This does not look to me a trade I'd be willing to make. I find that saving throws are already amazing on CHARNAME, if you go with a shorty (likely Gnome, maybe Dwarf), and you also have a wide selection of immunity gear to choose from so you don't get hit by bad effects.
Even though in IR not every slings has strength bonus, there's still the sling of Seeking for a PoL-->fighter, like you suggested. It's pretty much the best range character in the game. It's a late bloomer though, but it also gives you some utility through cleric spells.
Could you elaborate on that, I feel like I'm missing something. Sling of Seeking doesn't appear to get any STR bonuses, and all it has is a +6 THAC0 bonus. How does that make the best ranged character in the game?
Nope, just a silly mistake I made. I was thinking about the sling of force, which makes you deal a boatload of damage. A bit of confusion between vanilla and IR.
If the "drawbacks" of the DD doesn't sound appealing to you, you could go the other way around with a mage-->fighter. Wait long enough to have the number of stoneskins you want, them dual. You then will have a high number of HLAs to dish out the pain. I also play with the True Grandmastery tweak from Tweak Anthology, which makes pure fighter a really good choice under IR, where APR bonus scarce.
You got yourself a character with arcane defenses, high APR and plenty of fighter HLAs. Need higher level spells ? Use scrolls ! There's also a few items that grant double APR (at least the bracers of Blinding Strike in IR, if I remember correctly), so you could chose one or two Critical Strike to deal massive damage, although for a short time. Go Whirlwind the rest of the way (where you'd switch to a two-handed weapon). Plus, you won't have a lot less hp, because the bonus from the familiar is more important under LoB. DPS wise, that character would be a destroyer while being really hard to bring down.
Finally, I would perhaps add a mage-->fighter as a DPS machine and replace one of the archer with a PoL-->fighter, because he would actually outdamage the archer by the end game while adding more utility from the cleric levels.
Too bad you are no friend of summons @Lord_Tansheron otherwise a Totemic Druid would have been a pretty good choice. I really appreciate the extra numbers and thanks to their immunities the Spirit Summons are still working in my solo no reload run so far (being in SoA atm). I do not completly agree with regard to higher cheese potential of summons as they "only" recieve [HP x2 + 20] not the usual [HP x3 + 80] like enemies. Dualing the Totemic Druid at 15 or 18 to Fighter seems to be a decent choice even for solo runs.
Just finished SOD, got big B down on second try. Note that this was my first sod playthrough ever as I just bought the game, first try was very messy.
I didn't know I will be immediately shot with massive remove magic so in second I was out of potions and buffs. I also didn't know any summons from elevator will not get moved to the next zone... I mean I could have figured this out so i sarted encounter without summons and with no buffs, seconds later I was dead.
Next try I just ran to the back of the room let the lone summon soak first dispel then started clearing adds from sides while summons kept big B busy. 10 minutes later he was down, farily simpler than I thought.
Surprisingly enchanted weapon scroll is available just moments before entering hell so my +2 weapons and slings got some use, skald has decently high level so it lasts for entire fight. Also biggest bonus came near the end of SOD where I found spell shield and spell immunity scrolls so I could keep my F/M protagonist healthy for very long time.
Total kills in the party DD 18% FM 29% FMT 24% Skald 0% WS->Cleric 21% Sorcerer 8%
Sorc usually debuffs and summons stuff/uses wands so 8% is still neat. Most of it probably because of massive fights and spell sequencer skull traps. I like the robe of arcane opness
Hmm sad thing about WS->Cleric is that I trade off daggers (apr) for slings (damage) which might or might not be worth it, will see. I also found massive spreading of insect plaque on SOD fights extremely useful. If you use summons then WS->Druid might be better in the end because elemental princes are very strong on LOB (especially if added with tewaks) and conjure fire elemental is available very early in SOD for druid dual and those monsters are immune to normal weapons so usually they can solo win a lot of fights. I managed to get few times elder elemental on my last playthrough I just stood there watching as he massacred horde of enemies on his own. Still hard choice for me here, it's basically plaque/skins/natures beauty/elementals vs duhm/rm/pfe 10y/etc both are great... choices choices choices... if only availability of arrows of detonation would be better I'd simply go WS->Thief, feels like for summoning party WS->Druid is better otherwise WS->Cleric is your choice
@Lord_Tansheron F/M/C is interesting but I find cleric weapon restriction too hard to choose this path. I usually like my FMT switching Carsomyr into Answerer/Blackrazor/Angruvadal with UAI you can use some cool items like perma bless/righteous magic on use helmet.. neat. I could always just fmc FMC into shield with flails I guess since FOA is and then drop DD for FMC... hmm maybe next playthrough?
Druids- considering you're not using summons; there are a few things they can do: 1) Ice Storm is super-powerul in SR. It's movement-rate decrease effect is it's best feature, moreover if you have a ranged-heavy setup. 2) Insects. Given how AC/THAC0 mechanic work, the best way to increase your AC is actually lowering your enemies' THAC0 scores. There's no save against that ability. And insects stack. And they deplete stoneskins, mirror images, and, as of v15, they can make people go berserk. 3) regenerations I can't comment on how useful are in LoB, but can't be bad I guess 4) entangle. So overlooked, yet so powerful. No-save movement decrease, additional bonus on failed save. 5) barkskin. 5 turn AC bonus. 6) I *think* they have access to "Know oponnent* (am not sure). -10% physical resistance to some enemies can't be bad 7) Free Action = immunity to a gazillion spells, at level 4. Sure, your priest can cast it, but the more the merrier.
Apr limitations - as of v15, there's an optional component to make WW/GWW/Hardiness the way Demi envisioned them (and are implemented in Kit Revisions). Basically, no more free 10 apr. Some characters will be able to get there (and for 2 rounds, to be fair), but a 2-handed swordsman - never. Bracers of Blinding strike are also reworked, giving WW attack 1xday.
#4 Secondary Tank/DPS - Fighter/???
Kensai. Go ranged axes at first, then in late SoA (post Underdark) 2-handed swords. Silver Sword and Gram are too good to pass out on. If you need protection in late game, Mirror Cloak extends lifespan of glass cannons greatly - combined with Earth ring and ToB Gagoyle boots (stoneskins) + Ilbratha (mirrors) you should have enough protections.
If the "drawbacks" of the DD doesn't sound appealing to you, you could go the other way around with a mage-->fighter. Wait long enough to have the number of stoneskins you want, them dual.
I have indeed considered this, and it's still an option I may end up trying. The main concern I have is that it's not significantly better than a F/M, particularly a Gnome F/I. The dual downtime is no small problem considering early game in particular can be annoyingly dangerous - going high mage means a LOT of time without a real tank, as a pure mage gets hit a ton more and will thus deplete defenses much faster (no shield). I'm not sure the upside of +1/2 APR (no "true" GM in my game) and a few extra GWWs is worth the hassle, particularly if it also comes at the expense of even more spell slots and some decently useful higher level spells. But it may very well be a trade-off worth making, considering DPS is more important at endgame. Is it THAT much more DPS, though?
replace one of the archer with a PoL-->fighter, because he would actually outdamage the archer by the end game while adding more utility from the cleric levels.
I just don't see the math working out on this. Even at 25 STR, slings just don't do enough damage compared to bows. And that's per-hit only, not counting the fact that bows still have higher base APR.
I mean, Archer gets what, +11 damage at max level? 25 STR is +14. That's +3 in favor of the Priest, however the highest per-hit bow (Strong Arm / Darkfire Bow with +3 arrows) is 16.5 average damage per hit (1d6+3+10 / 1d6+3+5+1d4+1d4) while the best STR-bonus sling (Sling of Force with +3 bullets) is a mere 8.5 average damage per hit (1d4+4+2) - and Slings also have lower base APR.
F/M/C is interesting but I find cleric weapon restriction too hard to choose this path. I usually like my FMT switching Carsomyr into Answerer/Blackrazor/Angruvadal with UAI you can use some cool items like
The weapon restrictions aren't that big a deal. FoA+3 is a great weapon pre-Underdark, and post-Underdark Crom Faeyr is available and it's one of the top 3 damaging weapons in the game (behind only Carsomyr+5 and possibly Foebane+5, both of which need ToB). Note that Crom Faeyr is much better on Clerics under IR/SR than it is in vanilla, since DuHM only adds +3 STR max and Crom itself is also +3 STR rather than an automatic 25 STR.
However, I've considered the matter a bit further and I think I'll stick to F/M (or rather Gnome F/I) rather than go Cleric. It just doesn't add enough. Yes there are some very nice spells like DuHM/Champion's Strength or Righteous Magic, but I'm just not convinced it's worth the cost - particularly since buffs on other people have a high risk of getting dispelled by either the enemy or myself. In previous games I could deal with dispels through positioning, however proper position control is crucial to effective tanking and that often means I can't afford to move from a choke point to dodge a dispel on the group lest I risk mobs running past to pummel my damage dealers.
Additionally, there are actually quite a few STR-enhancing items available which means that the tank and DDs should be able to get to fairly high STR values without buffs anyway, further diminishing the value of things like DuHM/Champion's Strength. Between Crom Faeyr and multiple belts, Hell Trial, Lum, etc. it should not be hard to get 3 people's STR high enough.
replace one of the archer with a PoL-->fighter, because he would actually outdamage the archer by the end game while adding more utility from the cleric levels.
I just don't see the math working out on this. Even at 25 STR, slings just don't do enough damage compared to bows. And that's per-hit only, not counting the fact that bows still have higher base APR.
I mean, Archer gets what, +11 damage at max level? 25 STR is +14. That's +3 in favor of the Priest, however the highest per-hit bow (Strong Arm / Darkfire Bow with +3 arrows) is 16.5 average damage per hit (1d6+3+10 / 1d6+3+5+1d4+1d4) while the best STR-bonus sling (Sling of Force with +3 bullets) is a mere 8.5 average damage per hit (1d4+4+2) - and Slings also have lower base APR.
That's presumably the effect of mods. In the absence of those Everard's Sling using +4 bullets does more base damage than Strong Arm or Darkfire (or any other bow), with strength bonus on top. The Boon of Lathander can make up for the APR difference - though only once a day.
That's presumably the effect of mods. In the absence of those Everard's Sling using +4 bullets does more base damage than Strong Arm or Darkfire (or any other bow), with strength bonus on top. The Boon of Lathander can make up for the APR difference - though only once a day.
IR doesn't give str bonus to bullets, and probably doesn't allow slings that fire it's own ammo to shoot other bullets (I'm sure Gesen & Firetooth don't). Probably the best damage for a bow you can squeeze via Strong Arm - it gives a whooping +10 to each arrow at a cost of 19 strenght requirement. And you get it from Ribald. The bad thing about it is that it has no other effects. The WK longbow (final seal guardians have it), when upgraded by Cespy, gives "only" +5 to damage, but offers +1 apr and can reduce the target's movement speed. Darkfire grants an extra 1d4 + 1d4 fire/cold damage which goes through stoneskins, so that's also an option.
IR doesn't give str bonus to bullets, and probably doesn't allow slings that fire it's own ammo to shoot other bullets (I'm sure Gesen & Firetooth don't).
Yes, double ammo is not a thing in IR. As for Slings, you're right that they by default do not add STR bonuses, however there are two exceptions: Sling of Force (which has STR bonus mentioned specifically) and Sling of Everard (possibly an oversight in the mod).
There's also the Erinne Sling+4 which deals 1d4+5 plus 1d4 magic, with a 10% chance to save spell-4 or take a whopping 100 magic damage. If that was any other save it would probably be quite decent (if random), but spell saves are so ridiculously low on most enemies (and ESPECIALLY the dangerous ones) that it just happens too rarely even at -4.
I think Slings are still a bit too weak in IR, but I'm not sure how the status on that mod is currently and whether it's still in active development...
IR doesn't give str bonus to bullets, and probably doesn't allow slings that fire it's own ammo to shoot other bullets (I'm sure Gesen & Firetooth don't).
I think Slings are still a bit too weak in IR, but I'm not sure how the status on that mod is currently and whether it's still in active development...
Slings are supposed to be balanced out my allowing the user to use a shield as well. I played a dedicated slinger only once, and was quite pleased with it, but I only play on "core" rules. If you want a more damaging weapon for ranged combat, bows are the only viable way to go I guess on LoB. I do remember one run where a guy (Anomen?) using Erinne scored that 100 damage on an Ascension Fallen Solar...but if saves are buffed in LoB then the probability for that to happen is indeed low. And even 100 damage doesn't seem like much considering enemies' HP boost. It's hard to balance a mod around completely artificial enemy bonuses such as those, while in the same time keeping it viable for non-LoB gameplay. IR is going through a complete bugfix scenario with a few minor tweaks added, but nothing drastic - I plan to make a few items slightly more useful and unique while sticking to the lore (i.e. Shadow Armor will loose physical resistance and AC vs specific weapon types, but will grant AC of 2, regeneration rate on some items will be slightly increased). Good catch about Everard, will fix. Strenght bonus is supposed to be a unique feature of a single sling in the game.
Slings are supposed to be balanced out my allowing the user to use a shield as well.
Fair enough, that is a totally valid approach. It doesn't fit my LoB approach all that well, but as you rightly say, you can't balance around that fringe scenario at the highest tier of difficulty. Completely understandable.
if saves are buffed in LoB then the probability for that to happen is indeed low.
Maybe it would make more sense if it was save vs. wand rather than vs. spell? Even without accounting for LoB save bonuses, many difficult enemies (with SCS) have VERY low saves vs. spell (several have a save of 0). Even if the save was made at 50% (which is an unrealistically high success rate I'd say) it would still average out to a per-hit damage lower than the end-tier bows.
IR is going through a complete bugfix scenario with a few minor tweaks added, but nothing drastic - I plan to make a few items slightly more useful and unique while sticking to the lore (i.e. Shadow Armor will loose physical resistance and AC vs specific weapon types, but will grant AC of 2, regeneration rate on some items will be slightly increased). Good catch about Everard, will fix. Strenght bonus is supposed to be a unique feature of a single sling in the game.
I'm glad to see IR is still being worked on, and it's funny that the update post literally happened hours after I checked the forums to find that nothing had been posted in a long while Talk about coincidence! Is there any way to get the updated version yet?
Now thinking of it - Erinne's effects are actually SR's Disintegration. It should be a breath save, not spell. But changing it will actually nerf the item even more vs fighters, who generally max out at breath =6 and spell = 8. But.. SR's Disintegrate does 5d6 damage (avr. 15), w/o a save. I can add this instead of it's 1d4 magic damage. (or a slightly lower value, i.e. 2d6, no save). Or make the 100 damage effect trigger a bit more often (15%, to match other such weapons). Or both. Then again, given what I have in mind for SR (breath saves will be an auto-fail on disabled people, since saving against such effects is meant to "roll aside, dodge etc." which is impossible if you can't move) I think buffing the damage to 2d6 might be enough.
I'm glad to see IR is still being worked on, and it's funny that the update post literally happened hours after I checked the forums to find that nothing had been posted in a long while Talk about coincidence! Is there any way to get the updated version yet?
Bar you sitting in my chair, no. Not all is done, and I'd like to publish it when it's 100% fixed. I have a few items to fix through, and then probably tweak a few as well. I'll see what I can do tonight about upload; I'm trying to get Git to work.
Bar you sitting in my chair, no. Not all is done, and I'd like to publish it when it's 100% fixed. I have a few items to fix through, and then probably tweak a few as well. I'll see what I can do tonight about upload; I'm trying to get Git to work.
No worries! Your hard work is very much appreciated. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help, I suck at coding and stuff but I think I might know a thing or two about combat in this game.
And getting back to the main topic:
Further thinking has me back in F/M/C for the open damage/semi-tank slot, simply for the reason that Dwarven Thrower is not usable by F/M (or F/M/T) and it's one of my favorite ranged weapons - it has decent damage, gets STR bonus, and is available very early. And shares hammer proficiency with Crom Faeyr, which I'd like to use later anyway. I suppose being able to give people things like Champion's Strength and buffing yourself with Righteous Magic (for melee, of course) can help offset the loss of a few uses of GWW. The alternative would be sticking to Sling for early game, which is half the damage (1d4+2 vs. 2d4+4), plus loss of DuHM for self-buffed +3 STR. Tough call. Cleric utility is difficult to put into numbers.
With recent addition of achievements on Steam, I will definitely need to get back to BGEEs and it will include a LoB run. Reading this thread over last 3 days was very informative, so I would like to thank all of contributors! =D
Comments
You can see all the various effects of luck in @Alonso's old luck thread.
1. Luck does affect attack rolls, so critters with 100 intoxication (the maximum amount, which Wish imposes) suffer a -12 penalty to all attack rolls.
2. Luck also affects weapon damage rolls, so even when they do land a hit, they'll be doing much less physical damage.
3. Luck does not affect outgoing spell damage rolls, though. If the enemy has -12 luck, its Fireballs will still deal the normal damage to you.
4. But luck does affect incoming spell damage rolls. If the enemy has -12 luck, it will take maximum damage from your Fireballs.
Positive luck does the opposite (boosts attack rolls, boosts weapon damage, minimizes incoming spell damage but doesn't affect outgoing spell damage), but intoxication only applies luck penalties; never bonuses.
Of course, Wish intoxication is party-unfriendly, and magic resistance won't block it. SI: Enchantment can block it, and MGOI might be able to block it (it strikes as a level 3 spell), but since SI isn't available in SR, @Lord_Tansheron wouldn't be able to use it. However, I'm pretty sure intoxication can be cured in SR/IR. My memory is fuzzy, but the cure should be one or more of these things:
Slow Poison
Neutralize Poison
Elixir of Health
Heal
(Greater) Restoration
There's also Impregnable Mind, a spell from some mod or another (maybe the IWD spell pack?) which grants immunity to intoxication outright.
Dispel Magic can also cure Wish intoxication, though there is unfortunately no version of Dispel Magic that would affect your allies but fail to affect your enemies, so it would have to be aimed carefully, unless you're using Arrows of Dispelling, Carsomyr, or the Staff of the Magi (which still dispels magic without a saving throw even in Item Revisions!).
This reminded me of something I noticed a while back and I took a look at an unmodded game just to make sure. All healing spells have a Cure: Intoxication effect. I've never tried it but in theory you could probably just cast Mass Cure to heal off the drunkenness of your whole party.
@semiticgod I have indeed considered Sorcerer, however so far it seems like the tanking part isn't actually the problem. As I mentioned, Firkraag actually died on the first try without a hitch so even dragons work just fine with the tank setup I have. If there is something that's giving me problems still it's the same as always: casters of all flavors. Every fight just rises and falls with how well I can control the spellcasters. While Sorcerer can be great with dispelling etc., I'm just worried about the damage output. There are some priority targets that just need to die quickly, and Sorcerer isn't exactly a damage machine. Still, it's on the list - you probably know I don't (ab)use Wish resting, but there are enough powerful things to do with it for sure. Also I have not had time to exhaustively test the endgame, since most runs just end around the Underdark for time reasons. It's very possible that come ToB I change my mind and may want a Sorcerer around.
@Myrag I considered a Dwarven Defender, but the damage numbers just seem to high to me even with damage reduction. Considering the extra APR/THAC0 on enemies in LoB, you would be torn apart until you can really stack that DR in large amounts - and that's not easy under IR, considering things like Defender of Easthaven don't actually add DR there. Having an extra caster is also nice, especially since arcane magic isn't all that useful in terms of damage output under SR/IR (no more IH doubling APR, for example) so you may not want it on your damage dealers.
The more I think about it, though, the more I'm missing my cleric. I do like not relying on dispellable buffs too much, but the cleric spells just seem so much more useful than druid. What is there even to use as a druid that's really good? Stoneskin is good but somewhat redundant with a heavy tank setup. Summons I still do not like. Insects are mostly blocked by all the elemental shields SCS casters start with (not to mention all the dangerous casters are practically guaranteed to always make their save vs. spell). I really, really try to make druid work but I just cannot find the right angle, it seems.
The party is still holding up as expected, but I am increasingly convinced that Druid was a mistake. I just never use the spells, and never find myself missing them.
Thief is also very underwhelming, particularly with a bow. You really need some form of damage bonus to make missile weapons worth it, I feel, so either STR bonus has to apply or it has to be something like Archer kit bonus.
I've also thought about the merits of Fighter/Mage multi instead of a dual combo. Originally I had thought that HLAs would be worth it, since Hardiness seems great for tanking and all. But now I'm realizing that the key is probably just to avoid getting hit in the first place as much as possible. Not that damage resistance is useless, of course (sometimes you DO get hit) but its efficacy seems highly diminished by all the defensive buffs. SR in particular adds some fairly powerful ones, like Moment of Prescience or Ghost Form, which are real nice in a pinch - alongside the usual SS, PfMW, and friends, of course. It's possible Berserker9->Mage could just be better at tanking, though it's probably very close. GM certainly isn't a huge argument anymore, both because of the more defense-oriented focus and the fact that you don't double-dip into extra APR with Improved Haste.
With that in mind, a refined approach would probably look like this:
Berserker 9 -> Mage | ??
Skald
Inquisitor | Throwing Spear
Wizard Slayer 9 -> Cleric | Sling/Throwing Hammer
Archer | Short Bow
Archer | Longbow
Weapon choices reflect IR behaviors regarding STR bonuses and weapon stats. STR does not apply to daggers and slings in IR (with the exception of Sling of Force and Everard's Sling), but it does to hammers and Crom Faeyr can be thrown. It also applies for spears, and there are some great thrown ones in IR. Talos' Fury is available immediately, and Impaler is pretty amazing with 1d8+3+1d10 per hit (same average damage as FoA+5!).
I may try this setup next, or I may go into some other direction entirely for testing purposes (it's a very similar setup to my current active one after all) given the limited time. I will definitely not abandon the current run despite its flaws, though, so I can get some experience with endgame/ToB rather than just early/mid SoA as I usually do.
...or I might just throw in the towel and ragequit it all because of those STUPID IMMORTAL 1HP TROLLS. Honestly, does anyone know a fix for this stupid broken behavior of trolls not falling down when they're at 1HP? It's driving me up the wall, there's times where they are alive at 1HP for twice as long as they are on full HP, just because the script or whatever doesn't quite take. This is literally my single greatest source of frustration right now, and the biggest gripe I have with the entire game. RAGE.
I was thinking of maybe dualing WS to thief so I could pass on FMT in favor of other classes... might need divine caster though as I would still need one.. let's go as it is for now.
I always love your powergaming playthrough @Lord_Tansheron but I've never felt like changing spells/items/classes through mods is something I wanted to use. I only use mods that either add quests/tweak QoL stuff/add difficulty. This is what makes me sad because your setups usually won't work or won't be as strong for regular LOB/SCS/Ascension playthroughs. Understandable though as you probably played the game so much it just feels like a must.
But all that being said, mods are and always will be personal preference. I am very particular about what I like and what I use, and I self-police quite rigorously. I already mentioned, for example, that I don't use summons or Wish-resting, which when you look at it objectively are two incredibly powerful strategies in LoB. Too powerful for my taste, but that's just that - my personal preference. There's nothing wrong with different people liking different things, but I still think there's value in sharing what you like. Not to force other people to like the same (as I am sometimes accused of, for whatever reason) but to INSPIRE them to expand their own palate. I know I've done it many times. Taste is all well and good, but it's not written in stone. Change is great!
So, finally finished ToB for once, and actually completed a run.
It went about as expected, with no major surprises. As levels progressed the Inquisitor got more and more powerful, and it was nice to couple a fully buffed tank with Dispelling Screen with a virtually guaranteed Dispel Magic in all enemies. Turns out mage buffs are quite powerful when it comes to defense, who knew!
What was a bit of a letdown, though, was the damage output. This was not entirely unexpected, of course, given that ranged tends to fall behind potential melee damage with sick endgame weapons. Not to mention that several enemies seem to be resistant to missile and/or piercing damage, which really made some fights a chore (golems in particular).
It seems that this is primarily a result of me making choices based around early/midgame, where defense is the main concern and missile damage is still very strong (arguably stronger than melee, considering some of the sick bows/crossbows available super early). Once you stock up on more gear, though, it's possible that a shift towards more melee may be more beneficial even if it makes tanking more difficult. I did find myself switching the Inquisitor over to Carsomyr a good number of times, it being 2h with wide reach sure helped with that, though.
The Druid was, as already mentioned, extremely underwhelming. Until someone teaches me the secret of how to actually get any real use out of this class, I'm just going to shelve it. Interestingly enough, the Wizard Slayer half of that combo was also not overly impressive. Despite the higher HP on everything, mages were generally finished once I got through their defenses, so the miscast effect was actually largely irrelevant. Of course, when going for a ranged Fighter dual you might as well go WS simply because the others are fairly terrible at ranged so it's just a free bonus I suppose.
I'm similarly disappointed with the Assassin->Fighter. Poison just isn't what it used to be, and the lack of damage modifiers for the ranged attack really became noticeable. Maybe I shouldn't have gone for bows with this but thrown, but even with STR bonuses it would not be all that impressive I don't think. Thieving skills were useful as always, but probably largely superfluous. Considering you can walk around most traps and use Battering Ram to pop doors/boxes (and Inquisitor True Sight to dispel illusions), a Thief may just not be necessary.
Another thing I noticed very strongly as the game progressed was the APR limitations created by IR/SR. Somehow I think I was still in the mindset of Improved-Haste-fueled 10 APR killing machines from the olden days, but you actually cap out very early now (note that IR also tones down rates-of-fire on some ranged weapons). 9/2 APR is basically as good as it gets, with 5 reserved to either very weak weapons (e.g. darts) or the one pair of +1/2 APR gloves on the right character. That in turn makes Whirlwind Attack very, very good and, consequently, weakens dual-class setups without access to the Fighter HLAs (there's also the Bracers of the Blinding Strike which double APR once per day for 3 rounds, sort of a super WW). Considering the heavy tank focus of my setup, I could basically take GWW on every single level-up, resulting in a chain of 10 APR rounds that proved quite the output machine. Unfortunately this seems to just not work with IR crossbows due to the hard reload period, which effectively caps their APR at a maximum of about ~2.5-3 (hard to tell, it seems a bit inconsistent with round timers). They do hit hard, though, so this makes them very strong at early game (where APR are in that range anyway) but drop off later on as APR increase.
Looking back at the experience, I think I'd revise my setup in several ways. I do like the general paradigm of tanking - a lot. It made many fights considerably less of a hassle, and I love the way it makes you worry about micro for positioning, choke points, peeling off, etc. The AI seems in a great place between threatening to go for weak members, and being actually tankable. However, I think I want to find a way to handle the sort of mid/endgame transition where ranged damage drops off, by introducing more melee capability at that point. I also want to make sure that I get Fighter HLAs where I can, because GWW is probably just that good. Also, ranged weapons will be restricted to those that get some sort of damage bonus - either through being an Archer, or through getting STR damage. A preliminary setup could look like this:
#1 Tank - Fighter/Mage/Cleric
I'm happy with how my tank turned out, however Cleric spells do have their uses here and there. Chaotic Commands and Defensive Harmony in particular seem very useful, and DuHM/Righteous Magic are perennial favorites (the damage output of the tank is actually fairly decent, mine was about on par with the non-archers for kill %). The lower levels on the triple class shouldn't matter too much, as most of the utility is mid-level heavy rather than coming at high levels. As long as you can chain Stoneskins, Mirror Images, and Dispelling Screens, you're good. Lvl 6+ spells are just icing on the cake.
#2 Support - Skald
Unchanged. I continue to be impressed with this class, and with its role in the party. There's actually a fair number of utility items that are a perfect fit for a class like this, such as Blade of Roses (+1 to rolls for allies in 20yd) or the various +caster level items that are otherwise weak but great on someone who doesn't actually fight but does a lot of buffing.
#3 Dispel - Inquisitor
I was off Inquisitor for a while, but it's back with a vengeance! Great tool in many ways. The synergy between dispelling and a dispel-immune tank is the core strategy for many fights, plus its basically exactly what I want: someone who can go ranged early in the game, and then switch to a powerful melee weapon later on as needed (Carsomyr+5 is probably the highest average damage weapon in the game, considering there are so few enemies that are NOT evil).
#4 Secondary Tank/DPS - Fighter/???
This is the big open slot. I want someone who can deal good damage at ranged, but can transition to enough resilience later on to make use of the insane melee weapons that become available. For that reason, it's likely that I want a Fighter multiclass of some kind - but WHAT kind? Another Fighter/Mage? A Fighter/Mage/Thief for UAI so I can grab SNT? Or maybe not a multi but a dual TO Fighter? Reviving the old Priest of Lathander 9 -> Fighter perhaps for DuHM (caps at lvl 9 anyway under SR) and Boon of Lathander while also retaining Fighter HLAs? Or Swashbuckler->Fighter, another classic (does the Swash bonus apply to thrown weapons?)? Stuff to ponder.
#5 Archer
#6 Archer
I'm so sorry, Archers. I thought I could do with only one of you for a moment. Clearly I was mistaken. Come back in, second Archer, and never leave me again!
As always, comments are appreciated and encouraged. I'm not sure when I'll next have time to do a full run again (minor miracle I got this week free), but I'll try to fit some playtime in when I can. I'd also like to once again thank @Demivrgvs specifically for IR/SR and the great things it does that I'm still discovering (like the many tank-friendly backlash items, those are amazing additions!). IR and SR really have become the new standard for me that I am never going to do without anymore.
Right now I'm considering:
Swashbuckler 10 -> Fighter
+2 damage/hit on top of 100 in traps, locks, and illusions. A bit high on the dual but from what I just experienced I'd rather shift the weight a bit towards the higher end of the level spectrum rather than early game. The utility choice for thief QoL, mostly.
Priest of Lathander 9 -> Fighter
Some nice APR and maximum DuHM for +3 STR, which is a decent damage boost (+3 or more, depending on my eSTR roll). Also gives some extra buffing utility.
Fighter/Mage
Boring, plain, effective. Mage defenses make getting in there a non-issue even relatively early on. Could easily become an almost fully-fledged tank if needed. Also adds more dispels etc. to combat mages (chaining Breaches happens a lot against all those PfMW/SS contingencies/sequencers).
Fighter/Thief
Mainly for UAI, the value of which I still find overrated. There are some interesting utility items to use, though, as well some great weapons like Purifier or Scarlet Ninja-to. Thief QoL is included, but defenses are low which worries me a little. Then again: this setup can actually backstab and lay Spike Traps (which I'd honestly rather not use, they're just too silly).
Monks do have decent damage output, primarily thanks to Gauntlets of Aln Zekk/Gauntlets of Crushing and SNT. I gave them a try early on in LoB for that very reason, however I found that their defenses are just unacceptably weak. They have very little they can do not to get smashed in the face by every little thing, as AC just does not cut it with LoB thac0 and enemy APR values. Running away when they are targeted to reset aggro on the tank is one way to go about it, however that severely impacts their damage output - at which point I might as well use something else with lower per-hit damage but higher uptime (and thus higher total output). Even Darkmoon Blur and Mirror Image do not help too much, as both are once per day only and fights last very long in LoB (plus dispel is rampant).
Also, you had doubts earlier about the Dwarven Defender, but I can tell you that they're highly effective even on LoB. I used one on a solo no-reload SCS-LoB, and they can facetank effectively even at lower levels, because of their massive hp pool and insane DR. I can only imagine what a DD fully buffed by arcane and divine magic would do (SR Champion's strength on a DD ? Yes please !!). Also, don't forget about the bonus to saving throws granted by Defensive Stance. In conjunction with the shorty bonus, your fighter is now much sturdier when facing magic, even against the heavy saving throws penalty to spells that SR adds.
Otherwise, there's always a summoning character, like a Totemic Druid, a Shaman of even a Conjurer. More bodies is always welcome, even if I think you said you didn't like summons (was it you ?).
As for DD, it certainly has its allure. The main issue to me is that it's just too easy to tank without ever actually taking any damage if you go with mage spells, giving you a virtual 100% damage reduction and without any downsides - the main one being that DD forces you to either dual (so no fighter HLAs) or single-class (so no mage buffs). This does not look to me a trade I'd be willing to make. I find that saving throws are already amazing on CHARNAME, if you go with a shorty (likely Gnome, maybe Dwarf), and you also have a wide selection of immunity gear to choose from so you don't get hit by bad effects. Could you elaborate on that, I feel like I'm missing something. Sling of Seeking doesn't appear to get any STR bonuses, and all it has is a +6 THAC0 bonus. How does that make the best ranged character in the game?
If the "drawbacks" of the DD doesn't sound appealing to you, you could go the other way around with a mage-->fighter. Wait long enough to have the number of stoneskins you want, them dual. You then will have a high number of HLAs to dish out the pain. I also play with the True Grandmastery tweak from Tweak Anthology, which makes pure fighter a really good choice under IR, where APR bonus scarce.
1 + 1 (level 13) + 1.5 (True Grandmastery) + 1 (off-hand) + .5 (Belm/Kundane) = 5 APR.
You got yourself a character with arcane defenses, high APR and plenty of fighter HLAs. Need higher level spells ? Use scrolls ! There's also a few items that grant double APR (at least the bracers of Blinding Strike in IR, if I remember correctly), so you could chose one or two Critical Strike to deal massive damage, although for a short time. Go Whirlwind the rest of the way (where you'd switch to a two-handed weapon). Plus, you won't have a lot less hp, because the bonus from the familiar is more important under LoB. DPS wise, that character would be a destroyer while being really hard to bring down.
Finally, I would perhaps add a mage-->fighter as a DPS machine and replace one of the archer with a PoL-->fighter, because he would actually outdamage the archer by the end game while adding more utility from the cleric levels.
However: At the end its up to you!
I didn't know I will be immediately shot with massive remove magic so in second I was out of potions and buffs. I also didn't know any summons from elevator will not get moved to the next zone... I mean I could have figured this out so i sarted encounter without summons and with no buffs, seconds later I was dead.
Next try I just ran to the back of the room let the lone summon soak first dispel then started clearing adds from sides while summons kept big B busy. 10 minutes later he was down, farily simpler than I thought.
Surprisingly enchanted weapon scroll is available just moments before entering hell so my +2 weapons and slings got some use, skald has decently high level so it lasts for entire fight. Also biggest bonus came near the end of SOD where I found spell shield and spell immunity scrolls so I could keep my F/M protagonist healthy for very long time.
Total kills in the party
DD 18%
FM 29%
FMT 24%
Skald 0%
WS->Cleric 21%
Sorcerer 8%
Sorc usually debuffs and summons stuff/uses wands so 8% is still neat. Most of it probably because of massive fights and spell sequencer skull traps. I like the robe of arcane opness
Hmm sad thing about WS->Cleric is that I trade off daggers (apr) for slings (damage) which might or might not be worth it, will see. I also found massive spreading of insect plaque on SOD fights extremely useful. If you use summons then WS->Druid might be better in the end because elemental princes are very strong on LOB (especially if added with tewaks) and conjure fire elemental is available very early in SOD for druid dual and those monsters are immune to normal weapons so usually they can solo win a lot of fights. I managed to get few times elder elemental on my last playthrough I just stood there watching as he massacred horde of enemies on his own. Still hard choice for me here, it's basically plaque/skins/natures beauty/elementals vs duhm/rm/pfe 10y/etc both are great... choices choices choices... if only availability of arrows of detonation would be better I'd simply go WS->Thief, feels like for summoning party WS->Druid is better otherwise WS->Cleric is your choice
@Lord_Tansheron F/M/C is interesting but I find cleric weapon restriction too hard to choose this path. I usually like my FMT switching Carsomyr into Answerer/Blackrazor/Angruvadal with UAI you can use some cool items like perma bless/righteous magic on use helmet.. neat. I could always just fmc FMC into shield with flails I guess since FOA is
1) Ice Storm is super-powerul in SR. It's movement-rate decrease effect is it's best feature, moreover if you have a ranged-heavy setup.
2) Insects. Given how AC/THAC0 mechanic work, the best way to increase your AC is actually lowering your enemies' THAC0 scores. There's no save against that ability. And insects stack. And they deplete stoneskins, mirror images, and, as of v15, they can make people go berserk.
3) regenerations I can't comment on how useful are in LoB, but can't be bad I guess
4) entangle. So overlooked, yet so powerful. No-save movement decrease, additional bonus on failed save.
5) barkskin. 5 turn AC bonus.
6) I *think* they have access to "Know oponnent* (am not sure). -10% physical resistance to some enemies can't be bad
7) Free Action = immunity to a gazillion spells, at level 4. Sure, your priest can cast it, but the more the merrier.
Apr limitations - as of v15, there's an optional component to make WW/GWW/Hardiness the way Demi envisioned them (and are implemented in Kit Revisions). Basically, no more free 10 apr. Some characters will be able to get there (and for 2 rounds, to be fair), but a 2-handed swordsman - never.
Bracers of Blinding strike are also reworked, giving WW attack 1xday.
#4 Secondary Tank/DPS - Fighter/???
Kensai. Go ranged axes at first, then in late SoA (post Underdark) 2-handed swords. Silver Sword and Gram are too good to pass out on. If you need protection in late game, Mirror Cloak extends lifespan of glass cannons greatly - combined with Earth ring and ToB Gagoyle boots (stoneskins) + Ilbratha (mirrors) you should have enough protections.
I mean, Archer gets what, +11 damage at max level? 25 STR is +14. That's +3 in favor of the Priest, however the highest per-hit bow (Strong Arm / Darkfire Bow with +3 arrows) is 16.5 average damage per hit (1d6+3+10 / 1d6+3+5+1d4+1d4) while the best STR-bonus sling (Sling of Force with +3 bullets) is a mere 8.5 average damage per hit (1d4+4+2) - and Slings also have lower base APR. The weapon restrictions aren't that big a deal. FoA+3 is a great weapon pre-Underdark, and post-Underdark Crom Faeyr is available and it's one of the top 3 damaging weapons in the game (behind only Carsomyr+5 and possibly Foebane+5, both of which need ToB). Note that Crom Faeyr is much better on Clerics under IR/SR than it is in vanilla, since DuHM only adds +3 STR max and Crom itself is also +3 STR rather than an automatic 25 STR.
However, I've considered the matter a bit further and I think I'll stick to F/M (or rather Gnome F/I) rather than go Cleric. It just doesn't add enough. Yes there are some very nice spells like DuHM/Champion's Strength or Righteous Magic, but I'm just not convinced it's worth the cost - particularly since buffs on other people have a high risk of getting dispelled by either the enemy or myself. In previous games I could deal with dispels through positioning, however proper position control is crucial to effective tanking and that often means I can't afford to move from a choke point to dodge a dispel on the group lest I risk mobs running past to pummel my damage dealers.
Additionally, there are actually quite a few STR-enhancing items available which means that the tank and DDs should be able to get to fairly high STR values without buffs anyway, further diminishing the value of things like DuHM/Champion's Strength. Between Crom Faeyr and multiple belts, Hell Trial, Lum, etc. it should not be hard to get 3 people's STR high enough.
The bad thing about it is that it has no other effects. The WK longbow (final seal guardians have it), when upgraded by Cespy, gives "only" +5 to damage, but offers +1 apr and can reduce the target's movement speed.
Darkfire grants an extra 1d4 + 1d4 fire/cold damage which goes through stoneskins, so that's also an option.
There's also the Erinne Sling+4 which deals 1d4+5 plus 1d4 magic, with a 10% chance to save spell-4 or take a whopping 100 magic damage. If that was any other save it would probably be quite decent (if random), but spell saves are so ridiculously low on most enemies (and ESPECIALLY the dangerous ones) that it just happens too rarely even at -4.
I think Slings are still a bit too weak in IR, but I'm not sure how the status on that mod is currently and whether it's still in active development...
If you want a more damaging weapon for ranged combat, bows are the only viable way to go I guess on LoB. I do remember one run where a guy (Anomen?) using Erinne scored that 100 damage on an Ascension Fallen Solar...but if saves are buffed in LoB then the probability for that to happen is indeed low. And even 100 damage doesn't seem like much considering enemies' HP boost.
It's hard to balance a mod around completely artificial enemy bonuses such as those, while in the same time keeping it viable for non-LoB gameplay.
IR is going through a complete bugfix scenario with a few minor tweaks added, but nothing drastic - I plan to make a few items slightly more useful and unique while sticking to the lore (i.e. Shadow Armor will loose physical resistance and AC vs specific weapon types, but will grant AC of 2, regeneration rate on some items will be slightly increased). Good catch about Everard, will fix. Strenght bonus is supposed to be a unique feature of a single sling in the game.
But changing it will actually nerf the item even more vs fighters, who generally max out at breath =6 and spell = 8.
But..
SR's Disintegrate does 5d6 damage (avr. 15), w/o a save. I can add this instead of it's 1d4 magic damage. (or a slightly lower value, i.e. 2d6, no save). Or make the 100 damage effect trigger a bit more often (15%, to match other such weapons). Or both.
Then again, given what I have in mind for SR (breath saves will be an auto-fail on disabled people, since saving against such effects is meant to "roll aside, dodge etc." which is impossible if you can't move) I think buffing the damage to 2d6 might be enough. Bar you sitting in my chair, no.
I'll see what I can do tonight about upload; I'm trying to get Git to work.
And getting back to the main topic:
Further thinking has me back in F/M/C for the open damage/semi-tank slot, simply for the reason that Dwarven Thrower is not usable by F/M (or F/M/T) and it's one of my favorite ranged weapons - it has decent damage, gets STR bonus, and is available very early. And shares hammer proficiency with Crom Faeyr, which I'd like to use later anyway. I suppose being able to give people things like Champion's Strength and buffing yourself with Righteous Magic (for melee, of course) can help offset the loss of a few uses of GWW. The alternative would be sticking to Sling for early game, which is half the damage (1d4+2 vs. 2d4+4), plus loss of DuHM for self-buffed +3 STR. Tough call. Cleric utility is difficult to put into numbers.
With recent addition of achievements on Steam, I will definitely need to get back to BGEEs and it will include a LoB run. Reading this thread over last 3 days was very informative, so I would like to thank all of contributors! =D