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The Nightmare Mode (Legacy of Bhaal) Thread

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Comments

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 10,751
    I really don't see the point of playing LoB if it gives no XP bonuses at all. It'd just make things miserably slow and give no real reward. What fun is that?

    I'd probably just give my characters a permanent effect to double their XP when in LoB mode.

    I'd double or triple the XP values, with maybe a very small bonus to base value to make kobolds less tedious to fight. Adding a large static XP bonus to each critter would just encourage grinding. The best way to gather XP in LoB mode, or any mode, should be taking on bigger challenges like dragons and liches, not just bowling over hordes of low-level enemies in the sewers.

  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    I suggested a small +100/250 xp bonus a while back but of course it wasn't implemented.

    Anyway I'm actually happy with LoB mode. It's supposed to be a super difficult challenge, not a "I get HLAs early in chapter 2 and the game becomes easier" mode.

    It's only tedious very early in BG1 when you fight 100hp gibberlings as a level 1 party to earn 35 xp.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    I do agree that no reward does make the more tedious bits even more annoying. There's plenty of great bits, too, with no need for extra incentive - but not every fight is a big dragon or adventuring party. Most fights are fairly boring, and now they're even more boring AND unrewarding.

    As big, splashy fights are already enjoyable in their own right, I'm fine with not getting a huge bonus out of them in terms of XP. It's the little, regular fights that I'm worried about. Multiplication does too little for that, because of the VAST differences in XP values - without static modifiers, there's hardly a multiplier you could use that works for both a Kobold (7xp) and a Dragon (~50,000xp).

    FinneousPJ
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 16,372
    It's a feature, @Lord_Tansheron - during the beta-test of SoD it was decided that the extra XP would be "too much".

    But there's a line in the baldur.lua file to activate the extra XP if you want (just set it to from 0 to 1).

    FinneousPJsemiticgodlunar
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    bengoshi said:

    It's a feature, @Lord_Tansheron - during the beta-test of SoD it was decided that the extra XP would be "too much".

    But there's a line in the baldur.lua file to activate the extra XP if you want (just set it to from 0 to 1).

    That's good to know.

    Is there a way to edit the extent of the bonus XP, too? Customize the multipliers and static bonuses? Not in the .lua I mean, but via say NearInfinity.

    FinneousPJsemiticgodJuliusBorisov
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 16,372

    bengoshi said:

    It's a feature, @Lord_Tansheron - during the beta-test of SoD it was decided that the extra XP would be "too much".

    But there's a line in the baldur.lua file to activate the extra XP if you want (just set it to from 0 to 1).

    That's good to know.

    Is there a way to edit the extent of the bonus XP, too? Customize the multipliers and static bonuses? Not in the .lua I mean, but via say NearInfinity.
    @argent77 , if you have some time :)

    FinneousPJ
  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 2,590
    I can't really help you in this case. It might be hardcoded or hidden in one of the many 2DA files. The devs should know more.

    FinneousPJJuliusBorisov
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    edited April 2016
    My hope would be that it's just a few variables in a .2da and that should make it fairly easy to edit. I guess I'll have to ask somewhere else.

    In the meantime, the .lua variables are at least something. It seems that they simply changed the bonus to be x2 XP, with no static modifier; unlike IWD, which I believe was x2+1000.

    FinneousPJ
  • TredvoltTredvolt Member Posts: 62
    I realize I might be in the minority here but I really really really like that we don't get bonus experience. I feel like we are staying more true to the original pacing of the game. People can always console in extra experience if they feel they deserve it but removing experience is a huge pain.

    While i understand the fight rewards may feel less epic - to me it always seemed to completely compromise the difficulty to the point where i actually felt I was cheating by playing on nightmare mode.

    I think as Lord_Tansheron suggested maybe a bit of a reduction in the experience bonus which can be turned on and off (yay for good decisions beamdog) would make a lot of people happier. It seems like most people want a bit more of a reward but the "have all your HLAs in chapter 2" experience is really overboard.

    As it stands I will happily play in the fixed LOB mode with no bonus experience. I can even forgive the 2 week delay!

    FinneousPJDemivrgvs
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    edited April 2016
    My main gripe isn't that I specifically want more XP per se, it's that so many early game fights become a hassle for no reward. They were already useless in normal mode, but at least there it's 5 seconds and you're done. Spending 3 minutes on a pack of Hobgoblins to walk out with 250xp feels so... ridiculous. I'd rather just run past them and disarm a trap for 500xp.

    I think that static modifiers could help a lot there. If Kobolds were 507xp instead of 7, it'd be a very different matter.

    semiticgodFinneousPJ
  • TredvoltTredvolt Member Posts: 62
    edited April 2016
    Running past them might actually be the smarter play. I mean from a RP perspective and powergame perspective - skipping no reward fights or taking risks that aren't necessary might actually make sense. I doubt I'd get experience in real life for fighting a pack of babies so I'd probably skip them because A) i'm not a monster and [B] the effort wasn't worth the reward although C) those babies had it coming.............. is a strong counterpoint. What were we talking about?

    semiticgodFinneousPJ
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    I'd have skipped them before, too, if they weren't so laughably easy to dispatch with an AoE spell or some Archer shots as you walk past. Obviously that doesn't work in LoB.

    FinneousPJ
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    Honestly, they didn't fix the summons issue? That's sad. I hate summons to begin with, but with LoB increase I actively avoid them for cheese-flavored reasons. Is this supposed to be a feature? Is it because of the Shaman?

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 5,884
    Come on guys back on topic please.

    semiticgodJuliusBorisov
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 5,884
    @bengoshi Can you split the mod discussion to its own thread?

    JuliusBorisov
  • OtherguyOtherguy Member Posts: 157
    Heya!

    I really like Nightmare mode type of games. Could this thread please go back to talk about just that?

    I can see where the anger vs arcane casters comes from but in my humble opinion it is a bit misguided. Arcane casters are supposed to be way stronger than everyone else in middle to late game. I think mages and even more so clerics are actually weaker in BG2 than what they are supposed to be in the forgotten realms setting. Read a book or two about Drizzt or Elminster and you'll see what I mean.

    Vanilla has a lot of HORRIBLY OP spells... Just saying.

    If I played more I would try SR even though my personal opinion is that IR is a bit OP. I do play with personal rules though when it come to what spells I use (no PI, no wish or limited wish etc etc), limited resting, and all the scs options for postponing or deleting horribly OP items. I do not however play with full pre-buffs for mages because even though it's playable it's kind of annoying to empty your own spellbooks in every mage fight or resorting to abusing bad AI.

    TL;DR: Please go back to talking about nightmare mode. Play as YOU want, it is a single player game. An amazing one at that.

    semiticgodGotural
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    Alright, let's get back on topic.

    I've gotten around to playing some, finally, and I'm currently poking around with this party:

    Fighter/Cleric
    Inquisitor
    Wizard Slayer 9->Druid
    Fighter/Illusionist
    Archer
    Archer

    Initially I tested a Darkmoon Monk instead of the 2nd Archer, but found it altogether unimpressive, for the most part. It was just a decent Fighter, essentially, but a bit fragile in melee. Golems in particular seemed to love him and just squished him into the ground.

    W9->D was on my list for a while, now I'm finally getting around to it. It's so far been everything I expected. Using Slings for even more ranged damage, partly because it's also a bit squishy (without buffs anyway) and partly because I really like tanking in LoB and it's easier with more ranged because you can magic-box or kite more easily. Fire Seeds is obviously ridiculous, and might even be cheese material. Will see how it does at late game.

    F/C and F/I are fairly unspectacular, bread-and-butter setups. Chose multi instead of dual because of SR's change to IH, which makes GWW more valuable. Also helps to have better THAC0 in LoB. I've gone fairly tank-heavy so the F/C stacks AC and a shield, while the F/I relies on spells to tank and otherwise goes dual-wield. Who tanks depends a bit on the situation and the mob, the harder they hit the better the Mage tank is (e.g. golems).

    Inquisitor is what it always is, a Carsomyr machine and solution to all things illusionary. Actually haven't used the Dispel a whole lot, and when I did it failed very often (despite being full x2 power). This is making me consider an alternative, possibly a Fighter/Thief who can also use Carsomyr eventually. Haven't actually gotten Carsomyr yet, by the way, as I'm a bit scared to go up against Big F just yet.

    Double Archer is a pet project of mine, and frankly, I'm still kinda loving it. Ammo is only a concern until you sneak into WK for the bottomless quiver, but even without it there shouldn't be problems. They're certainly destroying things left and right, locking down casters, pincushioning priority targets, the whole deal. Once levels are a bit higher (for DuHM) I'll also test out how they do with Slings compared to bows.

    I haven't really seen any extraordinary mob spawns from the new LoB. I don't know, however, whether this isn't simply due to interference from my mods. The super-duergar in Chateau Irenicus are the only example I saw from people, and those have obviously always been there for me due to mods. Anyone else seen anything special?

    Otherguycomebackhome
  • OtherguyOtherguy Member Posts: 157
    edited April 2016
    @Lord_Tansheron I think fire seeds are balanced around the druid himself throwing them, if you give them to a wizard slayer (or dual from one) or someone using poison it gets a bit ridiculous. The same way I feel fireball arrows shouldn't apply to skills/kit bonuses.

    I really like the archer, but if you play without xp bonus (which seems like a chore imho) wont you miss out on a true arcane caster? Multis are amazing, but level 6+ arcane spells really are game changers imho, even without the amazing improved haste.

    My theory crafting (which is nowhere close to some of the true veterans) if playing with bonus exp is currently something like:

    FMT charname
    skald
    F/I
    F/C
    Archer

    Then rotating the last spot for different NPCs for chapter 2 and Imoen for the rest, I can't really bring myself to not let her tag along.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    edited April 2016
    Otherguy said:

    I really like the archer, but if you play without xp bonus (which seems like a chore imho) wont you miss out on a true arcane caster? Multis are amazing, but level 6+ arcane spells really are game changers imho, even without the amazing improved haste.

    I'm not missing them so far. They're useful, yes, but I've always felt that a lot of the mainstay abilities are actually in the intermediate spell levels. The everyday, bread-and-butter stuff. Once I actually NEED high level spells, I'm sure I'll be there, XP-wise. In fact I plan on heavily relying on BBoD later on, which has absurdly high damage potential.
    Otherguy said:

    FMT charname
    skald
    F/I
    F/C
    Archer

    I considered FMT instead of F/I, but overall I find Thief fairly useless. It's literally convenience stuff and SNT - but maybe that's enough? Could be I can just throw a FMT in instead of the Inquisitor. Something to ponder.

    Skald I cannot make friends with unless you're using lots of summons, which are still subject to LoB bonus HP and ridiculously overpowered tanks. Mechanically, it would be optimal to use them, of course, but I simply refuse to.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 10,751
    @Lord_Tansheron: Are you not playing with SR? Last I checked, SR removed the area-effect projectile of Fire Seeds. Now they're single-target, but cast an area-effect spell on hit. That means they wouldn't apply WS spell failure as an area-effect; only the fire damage itself.

    I'm glad to see another person trying it out, though.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    edited April 2016

    @Lord_Tansheron: Are you not playing with SR? Last I checked, SR removed the area-effect projectile of Fire Seeds. Now they're single-target, but cast an area-effect spell on hit. That means they wouldn't apply WS spell failure as an area-effect; only the fire damage itself.

    That's true, however they give you 5 APR (double what I would have using my sling). For applying spell failure, that seems kind of important (it's still cumulative, right?). Also there aren't actually THAT many fights with multiple mages in close proximity. I also noticed it only seems to fail Arcane spells, not Divine ones. Is that base behavior, or from a mod? I always thought it was any spell, but I haven't played WS in ages.

    I suppose I could have also dualed to Mage and gone with Melf's, but I also wanted to test Druid more. There has to be SOME way to make it work. Many interesting spells, I just can't seem to find a way to properly fit it all into my parties.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 10,751
    @Lord_Tansheron: The advantage of the area effect is that it bypasses PFMW. You can attack your own summons--like the very high-AC Flesh Golem from the Golem Manual--and it will affect nearby mages.

    This is vanilla behavior.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087

    @Lord_Tansheron: The advantage of the area effect is that it bypasses PFMW. You can attack your own summons--like the very high-AC Flesh Golem from the Golem Manual--and it will affect nearby mages.

    This is vanilla behavior.

    But that won't work with SR, right? Not that big a deal, really, PfMW has windows.

    Does seem odd, though, that it doesn't stop priests at all. I always thought it would.

  • matricematrice Member Posts: 86
    lazutu said:

    You are the one who is setting constraints!!! I am talking about adding something to pure fighters, something that can turn a tedious series of fights into a difficult but entertaining game. @woowoovoodoo is saying just that, that's its a pro-mage mod.

    Then play a mageslayer (or w/e they are called in english) and stop complaining

  • comebackhomecomebackhome Member Posts: 254
    edited April 2016
    I thought I'd post my play through ATM with SCS + legacy of Bhaal mode with both IR and SR. With a custom created party. Starting in BG EE and will go right through to throne of Bhaal.

    1. (Elf) Fighter/mage multi classed -> using EE keeper changed to (dwarf) Dwarven defender/mage.
    2. Beserker/cleric of Lathander with dual warhammers (dwarf) -> EE keepered into halfling for appearance.
    3. Barbarian/druid with 2H proficiencies in Halberd.
    4. Bounty hunter (for the cheese value on a playthrough with immense difficulty).
    5. Archer specializing in crossbows.
    6. Mage/assassin using darts (will use melfs/improved haste combo + poison weapon)

    Playing with all multi classed characters for added difficulty too.

    Will be uploading my playthrough on YouTube if anyone's interested or want more info pm me

    DemivrgvsFinneousPJwoowoovoodookensai
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087

    2. Beserker/cleric of Lathander with dual warhammers (dwarf) -> EE keepered into halfling for appearance.

    What hammers are you using? Found them unimpressive overall, save of course for Crom Faeyr.

    5. Archer specializing in crossbows.

    That seems like a weird choice, considering IR's crossbow reload time. Wouldn't bows be better?

    6. Mage/assassin using darts (will use melfs/improved haste combo + poison weapon)

    Also odd since SR does away with IH doubling APR. I'm not sure how good Assassin is compared to Wizard Slayer, since they do essentially the same thing (interrupt spellcasting) but liches are immune to poison.

    Playing with all multi classed characters for added difficulty too.

    With SR, this might actually be optimal. APR are a huge damage increase, and having GWW on every Fighter is actually a big thing.

    As for my own party, I'm liking my Inquisitor less and less. I just can't ever seem to hit with dispel even at lvl 15, which makes me think they're not all that useful anymore. Later on in the game it's more about specific dispels anyway and keeping your own buffs up; granted that's still doable with Dispel Magic, but an added hassle.

    I'm thinking of adding a Thief for UAI into Carsomyr, but I'm not sure which route to go. F/T or FMT seem the obvious choices, since sadly my beloved Swash10->F can't get UAI. But FMT does take a hefty XP hit, especially in a heavily multiclassed party already. Hm...

    Definitely still loving the Archer² though. They are DOING it for me.

    FinneousPJsemiticgodkensai
  • TredvoltTredvolt Member Posts: 62
    Just coming in to say @Lord_Tansheron is still crazy for not using Skald. And I've tested and played a lot of comps and I'm still not finding one to rival my mainstay setup.

    Dwarf - F/C (slings) (shield AC tank)
    Half Elf - Skald (tank after UAI)
    Elf - Archer (short bows)
    Human - K->T (throwing daggers)

    Of course I focus on 4 player comps and if I were to run a 5th I would put in a second archer. My highest damage dealer by the end of the game is the kensai thief but early game the archer can barely beat the kensai. The group really is just a thing of beauty and I have tried and tried and tried to iterate on it but been unable to find a faster killing/more resilient party.

    The lower experience environment is fantastic and I'm really enjoying being a bit more constrained in my spell/ability usages. I expect I'll have to sleep a few more times than in previous runs so I'm expecting about a 30 game day completion of LoB SoA to ToB.

    WHY THIEF - to put it simply they just do so many things all wrapped into one character. The Kensai-Thief in my party is likely its most important character. Other classes can do some of what the kensai thief does, but nobody does all of it.

    - Pickpocket Extraordinaire
    - Open Lock Experience
    - Find Trap Experience
    - Backstabs in all fights that can benefit from them (invis pot every round means HUGE throughput)
    - Use any Item (str stacking as with the cleric level 25 ring, carsomyr, etc)
    - Scroll Usage - By the time UAI comes online i have 2 complete scroll cases full of spells
    - Insane range damage (throwing daggers)
    - Carosmyr dispels
    - Staff of Magi dispels or invisibility
    - Time Stop Traps
    - Normal Traps are still good!
    - Dispel Illusions without using a precious spell
    - Hide/Move Silently to setup fights properly, avoid certain fights

    The thief is actually "action starved" due to only being able to use one scroll or potion or hla or usable item per round. It is simply a true powergamed character to the max that doesn't need to be the protagonist or take str tomes/machine of lum - and has a great power curve throughout. Notable options are the F/T the F/M/T multis. They provide less damage but are safer and easier to play for the most part. Also if you are playing through the entire set of games from level 1 the multis are functional thieves immediately so it is a bit cleaner.

    ----------------
    Disclaimer
    ----------------
    Just my opinions - also I use low sleep environment although I go a bit overboard - For example I do not sleep even once in ToB. ToB takes about 4 hours to complete (not including WK).

    semiticgodFinneousPJ
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    Tredvolt said:

    Just coming in to say @Lord_Tansheron is still crazy for not using Skald.

    This makes sense IF you're making extensive use of summons. If not, you are very likely better off just attacking with an extra character rather than going for the Skald Song buff. I assume you must be using summons since Skald in a 4-person party would be madness otherwise. Personally I still refuse to use summons until they no longer get the LoB HP bonus, but that's just my own choice. If this doesn't bother you, then Skald may very well be very worth it.
    Tredvolt said:

    Dwarf - F/C (slings) (shield AC tank)

    I find it odd to be tanking with a ranged weapon. Doesn't that give enemies +4 to hit you?
    Tredvolt said:

    Human - K->T (throwing daggers)

    Since you're already tanking, what is the reasoning behind using throwing weapons? Wouldn't you get a lot more damage out of melee weapons? I get that K can be fragile at times, but if you're already tanking surely you can mitigate a lot of that.
    Tredvolt said:

    - Backstabs in all fights that can benefit from them (invis pot every round means HUGE throughput)

    How do you sustain that? I haven't counted, but I don't think I'm on more than 30 or so Invis Pots for all of SoA. That seems hardly enough to chug one every round.
    Tredvolt said:

    The thief is actually "action starved" due to only being able to use one scroll or potion or hla or usable item per round. It is simply a true powergamed character to the max that doesn't need to be the protagonist or take str tomes/machine of lum - and has a great power curve throughout. Notable options are the F/T the F/M/T multis. They provide less damage but are safer and easier to play for the most part. Also if you are playing through the entire set of games from level 1 the multis are functional thieves immediately so it is a bit cleaner.

    While Thieves certainly can do a lot, I never found what they do to be THAT impressive. Convenient, certainly, but I've always been one to play with focused rolls instead of going broad, so I rate utility somewhat low. That being said, I do plan on testing out FT and/or FMT on my next run and see how fits; likely replacing Inquisitor, as I already mentioned. K9->T would be a great choice if I wasn't using SR, but without IH to double APR I find GWW too important for damage output and that's why I prefer going multi instead.

    Just out of curiosity, what is your setup? What mods are you using?

    FinneousPJwoowoovoodoo
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    @Lord_Tansheron I'm not sure if you know that but summons in LoB (not Nightmare Mode) actually only receive HP *2 + 20 instead of the usual HP*3+80
    That way they aren't useless without being too resilient. I think it's fair that way but if you think it's still too much I would partially agree with you.

    I agree that a Skald is very strong, notably because you can sing and cast at the same time without losing the song buff if you micro a bit.

    However your setup looks strange to me @Tredvolt with only one partial arcane caster. Are you running SCS?

    FinneousPJ
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    edited April 2016
    Gotural said:

    @Lord_Tansheron I'm not sure if you know that but summons in LoB (not Nightmare Mode) actually only receive HP *2 + 20 instead of the usual HP*3+80
    That way they aren't useless without being too resilient. I think it's fair that way but if you think it's still too much I would partially agree with you.

    I have read they don't get the FULL bonus, but it's still a lot. They have like 3+ times the HP of a player, and that means they can tank all day long and are in near limitless supply with enough casters. It makes tanking way too trivial for my taste. You could probably make a party of 5 ranged + 1 Skald and just have a clump of summons box in enemies each fight while you pelt them from afar. Not exciting.

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