@Lord_Tansheron I made a bit of testing, and I came with a better argument for the Dwarven Defender : under IR, they can actually achieve full physical immunity.
20 DR (level 20) + 20 DR (basic full plate) + 10 DR (Fortress Shield) + 50 DR (Defensive Stance) = full physical immunity. That's good.
A bit too good perhaps. IR was made before the EE were a thing, so it hasn't taken the DD into account in its basic design. So, using this combo is perhaps too close to an exploit than anything else...
@Lord_Tansheron I made a bit of testing, and I came with a better argument for the Dwarven Defender : under IR, they can actually achieve full physical immunity.
20 DR (level 20) + 20 DR (basic full plate) + 10 DR (Fortress Shield) + 50 DR (Defensive Stance) = full physical immunity. That's good.
A bit too good perhaps. IR was made before the EE were a thing, so it hasn't taken the DD into account in its basic design. So, using this combo is perhaps too close to an exploit than anything else...
That's interesting, but you still lose out on Mage abilities. With those, you can essentially become (effectively) immune much earlier, while ALSO having the utility of all the arcane spell buffs and debuffs.
Waiting until lvl 20 is sort of a big deal, too, considering most of early game is probably harder than the Underdark (to me anyway). Even with 80% DR, you'll still die to the huge pack of mobs at TorGal, for example. It'll just take 15 hits instead of 3, and it's not like you can heal up fast enough or something like that.
You're right, but in BG2, you'll have a character who can tank like no others. And at the cost of only one item : the Fortress Shield (you'll be wearing a full plate anyway). You don't need AC anymore then, which will give you a lot of flexibility on the equipment you want to put on the DD. I haven't tested this extensively, but you might be able to create an unkillable character at each specific point in the game past level 20 with the right gear setup. You also can go wild on GWW HLAs, because you won't need anything else.
Also, level 20 is late, but not that much if you do everything in SoA. If you clear something like the two first floors of the Watcher's Keep, you'll get there somewhere in the Underdark.
That build can absolutely trivialize many fights. Put him in front of Ogremoch and let everyone else stand back and drink a nice cup of tea. No micromanaging to do, except refresh Defensive Stance once in a while.
I agree that it never will be as good as a fighter/mage in term of flexibility, LoB or not (because nothing can, really), but in term of DPS, you'll hardly find something better with that level of defensive power. With a bit of positionning, the DD could hold his own throughout the whole saga. Don't forget that you can also buff that guy up with arcane/divine spells. If you have a team around a DD, the possibilities seem quite tasty.
You're right, but in BG2, you'll have a character who can tank like no others. And at the cost of only one item : the Fortress Shield (you'll be wearing a full plate anyway). You don't need AC anymore then, which will give you a lot of flexibility on the equipment you want to put on the DD. I haven't tested this extensively, but you might be able to create an unkillable character at each specific point in the game past level 20 with the right gear setup. You also can go wild on GWW HLAs, because you won't need anything else.
Also, level 20 is late, but not that much if you do everything in SoA. If you clear something like the two first floors of the Watcher's Keep, you'll get there somewhere in the Underdark.
That build can absolutely trivialize many fights. Put him in front of Ogremoch and let everyone else stand back and drink a nice cup of tea. No micromanaging to do, except refresh Defensive Stance once in a while.
I agree that it never will be as good as a fighter/mage in term of flexibility, LoB or not (because nothing can, really), but in term of DPS, you'll hardly find something better with that level of defensive power. With a bit of positionning, the DD could hold his own throughout the whole saga. Don't forget that you can also buff that guy up with arcane/divine spells. If you have a team around a DD, the possibilities seem quite tasty.
I like the idea of starting at basically 90% DR, however fights can last pretty long early in the game so I'll run out of Defensive Stance most likely - and then what. Successive Stoneskin casts tend to cover more ground, but perhaps 3 turns is enough (coverage at lvl 12) for most fights. So essentially, both a F/M and a DD can achieve full protection using successive casts of abilities.
That means the comparison comes to the other extras. Damage output, for example. High Mastery isn't amazing since it lacks the APR of Grand Mastery, but it's something; unfortunately there aren't all that many great hammers or axes around, particularly in SoA. Crom Faeyr is one, but I'd rather put that on someone who can get the most out of it (i.e. a full-time damage dealer). Other weapons are equal between the two, since both get ** in anything. HLAs is another thing. You get more fighter HLAs on the DD, which means more GWWs. You do still pick GWWs practically exclusively on the F/M as well, of course, since Hardiness isn't all that great when your plan is to avoid all hits. You'll end up with a few extra GWWs on the DD, though, that is true.
So, do those extra GWWs compensate for the loss of being able to dispel mage protections, cast more haste (still useful even considering GWW and the IH nerf of SR), and do other useful things like cloud spells (interrupting casters in an area) and so on. I don't know, honestly. Gut feeling says no.
At the end of the day, I must agree with you. There's pretty much nothing a DD can do that a f/m can't. The only real advantage of the DD is requiring a lot less micromanagement, which is actually not necessarily a drawback (I like micromanagement myself, to be honest). He pays that simpler fighting style by being a lot less versatile.
DD seems the stoutest pure fighter you can have in a IR/SR context though. Shorty saves plus Defensive Stance can push savings throws low enough to not be bothered even by SR changes. I still think that DD should be nerfed a bit (by taking away the 5% DR every 5 level, for instance), because, to have an unkillable f/m, you have to buff him up, and need to know how to keep those buffs up during longer fights. It's not as easy as it sounds (a good ol' dispel can disrupt the f/m in a real bad way). The DD, just by clicking on one ability and merely "stand here", could almost achieve similar invulnerability, and that goes against the scope of the IR/SR team, which is in part to avoid this type of exploit.
I'm with @Arctodus on this, DD is really good although not perfect
I'm testing DD so far I have mixed feelings so I'll try to sum up my observations
The good
1. In BGEE before mage tanks get enough mirror images/skins/ghost armor DD is far superior beacause of much higher HP pool and 50% DR (55% at end of BGEE). 2. When 93% damage redution is reached all strong hits (50+ damage) suddengly do 4-5 damage, for character with 200+ HP this means you need to get hit 20 times to go down, bad and good at the same time. You can boost this further by having silver dragon armor geeting those 4-5 to 2-3 (2hp heal on hit taken) which then means 60-100 hits and starts being amazing, that's like 3 rounds of images and skins for single HP pool. 3. High DR gives good value to health potions because if your DD gets 2-3 damage per hit that means single pot is stone skin or more which is nice 4. Giving DD foebane (if your damage dealers use different weapon) gives you the best value from the heal component because when F/M ends getting hit he gets hit for A LOT where as DD can get 400+ hp with this combo, a monster value 5. Undispellable can't be stressed enough, theres just X amount of spell immunities that you can throw on yourself during the fight, while it's fine for most of the game level 6 is precious spell slot already
The bad
1. In SOD and until level 15/20 with DOE DD falls behind because F/M tanks get better AC which further goes down by things like improved invisibility etc, with only 55% I had to kite at big B couple of times but wasn't that bad with -17AC 2. No veritality of a mage but this is neutral if you get other mage in the party anyway 3. Capped at -25AC where mages get things that work over this limit by reducing enemy hit chance rather than boosting AC, might be useful for LOB
BG1/SoD is a whole different thing. I'm only talking SoA+ToB, as those are the two games I play. BG1 I find boring, and SoD doesn't have SCS so I haven't bought it (yet). It's very possible that a DD does better in those two games, I couldn't say. That SoD dwarf helm looks fun, though.
That actually sounds appealing. WIth GWW especially you can heal up considerable amounts. It's a ToB weapon, but there is The Vampire's Revenge in SoA which also drains 1d4 per hit (and the -1 hp/3 rounds is negligible). That might very well make things worth it, it certainly warrants testing.
5. Undispellable can't be stressed enough, theres just X amount of spell immunities that you can throw on yourself during the fight, while it's fine for most of the game level 6 is precious spell slot already
You don't need more than 3 Dispelling Screens per fight, I don't think. Getting it removed once is already rare, twice almost never happens (especially considering that casters are already priority targets). And without IH doubling APR, it's not that high of a priority (plus you have other mages). Dispelling is a concern, but I haven't found it to be a problem.
2. No veritality of a mage but this is neutral if you get other mage in the party anyway
It may be less of a problem, but it's far from "neutral". You don't mysteriously gain extra mages by losing one on the tank, after all. Still, not something that can't be dealt with I suppose.
The problem with Dispelling Screen is that it only blocks a single Remove Magic spell, and if you're fighting demons, they'll often cast Remove Magic two or even three times in the same round. You can't restore Dispelling Screen in that split-second time frame between one Remove Magic and the other; you'll just get debuffed.
Plus, Breach removes Dispelling Screen on a single character; it's not just Remove Magic.
The problem with Dispelling Screen is that it only blocks a single Remove Magic spell, and if you're fighting demons, they'll often cast Remove Magic two or even three times in the same round. You can't restore Dispelling Screen in that split-second time frame between one Remove Magic and the other; you'll just get debuffed.
It seems to be blocking Remove/Dispel Magic continuously for me, being removed only by spells that remove spell protections. The description (at least on my end) says nothing about it being consumed, either. Furthermore, it is NOT affected by Breach.
It's possible that I'm using a different version of SR than you, since I usually try to have the latest beta rather than publicly available releases. Then again, it's been a while since I've checked the beta releases, too, so it's very possible mine is just outdated.
For reference, this is the spell description for me:
This spell creates a transparent, permeable barrier that shields the caster from Dispel Magic and similar spells. Furthermore, any spell effect that passes through the screen can potentially be dispelled by the energies of the barrier, effectively granting the caster 25% magic resistance.
@Lord_Tansheron: I believe the 25% magic resistance one is from an earlier version, because I've seen Dispelling Screen grant 50% MR in the first version I tried, then 25% MR, and then zero MR in the most recent version. I've been using v4.
Either way, I'm obviously only ever planning around what I actually have. As soon as the fixes that are on the way for the most recent version become available to me, I'll adjust the strategy based around that.
EDIT: I did some digging, and it does indeed seem that I'm using an outdated Beta version (v4.10.1). The most recent one seems to be v4.14, so I'll get that and use it in the future. But I don't think I have time to test it for a while
What's Dispelling Screen? I know it's part of SR but I can't find its description anywhere.
You may be using an older version of SR.
Dispelling Screen is essentially what used to be Spell Immunity. My version of SR (Beta v4.10.1) creates a buff on one target that will make it immune to Dispel/Remove Magic and give 25%. It can only be removed by effects that remove spell protections.
However the latest version of SR (Beta v4.14) has it as a party-wide buff that stops ONE Remove/Dispel Magic and then disappears. It does not grant MR and it can also be removed by things that remove protections (including Breach).
In light of that new version, I am planning to investigate the use of a DD as main tank, possibly using the mentioned healing weapons. When I have time
Oh, seems like a weaker version of SI, considering SI block more spells and is stackable, and in latest version it sounds more like a party version of Spell Shield with addition ability to block Dispel
Oh, seems like a weaker version of SI, considering SI block more spells and is stackable, and in latest version it sounds more like a party version of Spell Shield with addition ability to block Dispel
Yes, but SI was ridiculously powerful and it's gone in SR so >_>
I'm not sure I'm happy with the current iteration either, considering how rampant dispels are on enemies. I mean, making dispels matter is all well and good but right now I feel like everything revolves around them :P
Maybe just another case of balance skewed because of extreme difficulty settings that only five people in the world will ever use. I can live with that.
@Lord_Tansheron: I believe the 25% magic resistance one is from an earlier version, because I've seen Dispelling Screen grant 50% MR in the first version I tried, then 25% MR, and then zero MR in the most recent version. I've been using v4.
DS version that gives MR (and I think you found out is stacks!) is pre-nuclear era . First work I made on DS ranges to september 2015, and Demi included it shortly after.
Oh, seems like a weaker version of SI, considering SI block more spells and is stackable, and in latest version it sounds more like a party version of Spell Shield with addition ability to block Dispel
In latest version it works like semiticgod described. One dispel/anti-magic ray/breach/dispel arrow and it's gone.
I'm not sure I'm happy with the current iteration either, considering how rampant dispels are on enemies. I mean, making dispels matter is all well and good but right now I feel like everything revolves around them :P Maybe just another case of balance skewed because of extreme difficulty settings that only five people in the world will ever use. I can live with that.
The idea behind it is to nerf acrane classes, while providing at least one line of defense for fighters. It does make the game more difficult, since net effect of this is that mages will feel like glass cannons when faced with ToB demon-heavy gameplay, quite the opposite is what they used to be. I haven't played much LoB, since much of what I've seen and read is uber-summons fighting uber-enemies; couple that with the cheesy extra apr, saves, and double damage - not my cup of tea. I like my PC to be the "hero", not some summoned crap; maybe that's just me. DS is definitely not balanced for LoB; but what is? You've got 9th level spells like Meteor Swarm that a gibberling will survive.
I haven't played much LoB, since much of what I've seen and read is uber-summons fighting uber-enemies; couple that with the cheesy extra apr, saves, and double damage - not my cup of tea. I like my PC to be the "hero", not some summoned crap; maybe that's just me.
Not just you I regularly have to explain that I refuse to use summons at all in LoB, and I stand by it. No simulacra, skeletons, or shiny celestials. No, sir, not one. But I do have a familiar - in my bag.
Right now I'm just lacking time. I'm sure there are ways to tackle LoB and make things very interesting indeed, but given my current constraints I'll just have to go step by step.
So far everything is superb easy, additional levels from SOD seem to be OP even SCS mages fall quickly under WS->Druid and insect swarm. I've got burning earth +1 from my BG1EE gear and it's very strong. It's the only +4 weapon you can bring even if it's just against undead. Thanks to this and phantom blade spell for F/M i was easily able to kill vampire in irenicus dungeon.
Right of the dungeon usual order of business. I've pickpocketed boomerang dagger and gave it to WS->Druid. Happily druid dual can use daggers unlike cleric combo for shiny 3,5 apr which is nice for stacking miscast magic. Boomerang dagger even has very nice damage for dagger 2d4+2 competing with melee weapons. Circus went down so easily I almost forgot to write it down here.
I went to watchers keep to get crimson dart and golem manual nothing else is useful for me there as I can’t beat statues yet.
Slums quest was also easy, didn't use single summon here, sad part is that I got used to having archer in the party that getting tuigan bow made me sad because usually it's big power spike for my party. Noone in my party can use it
Before slaves quest I had enough money to bump my reputation to 17 then bit more after, with Hendak's discount azuredge did only cost me 2,5k. With this I was easily able to clear entire cementary. Greater malison with this axe is very strong combo, even strong undead fall for -8 save.
Optimistic about my party strenght I bought protection from undead scroll and my FMT quickly soloed gate lich, SCS blocks way out so it was only way to get him down at this level. Feels a bit cheesy but I guess putting additional restrictions upon yourself is a choice everyone has to make.
Later I went to find koshi for celestial fury... many reloads went into this fight. Strong mage with a lot of contigency spells so not even wizard slayer can shut him down. I hasted my FMT who kited part of the enemy group away while my main party handled koshi first so that I could identify the sword and give it my FM whos proficient in katanas/scmitars. This helped a lot as with greater malison sword stunlocks quite a lot even on LOB. Fight was way too hard, I should have saved this for later.
My First purchase was Defender of Eastheaven and after clearing temple district sewer party my DD has 83% physical resistance, already a decent value. Few more mini quests and thieving including skinner I was able to buy second purchase which was vahlior helmet for my WS->Druid, not sure yet who is this best on. I guess I will be swapping but simulacra WS can disable two mages at once which is very nice. I delay vecna but until alacrity mage can cast one spell per round anyway although sometimes it's useful to get your spells before enemies. Maybe I should put vecna on WS->Druid for instant insect swarm spells so she can get that 3,5APR within the same round.
Just before trademeet my sorcerer hit level 12 which granted him one of the most ridiculous spells, yes improved haste my friends. 3 casts of it.
Trademeet was next target... everything again relatively easy here, even spirit trolls were not match for me. Bridge was interesting 4 spore spawners created so many myconids that I'm not sure how long battle lasted but i ran out of spells. Didn't sleep before it though.
Getting belm from chest boosted APR of my FM celestial fury wielding killing machine up to 4, 8 under improved haste. Although I must remember for future rakasha with their insane level 7 spell immunity were simply too much, the only way to kill them here was protection from magic scroll and wait out their buffs, even then it took couple of reloads to take them down. Getting back to trademeet and finishing usual quests. Crypt usually was hard for me in the past but azuredge with greater malison, daystar with burning earth and CF rekt it within the round. My party is ridiculously strong at clearing undead enemies, this will be very useful in firkraag dungeon.
Lots of gold for getting this done, allowing me to buy belt of inertial barrier and vecna robes, power spike continues.
Great post @Myrag! It also nicely highlights why I have made SR and IR mandatory for myself - some of the vanilla strategies like immunity scrolls, undead killing weapons, or IH are simply too good to make things challenging enough for my taste.
@Lord_Tansheron yeah I might restrict myself from those next run or just go IR/SR myself. Will see, maybe IR only? I just love sorc opness late game just feels right after being so underpowered for most of the game compared to so many classes/multis. But if I restrict myself from insta kill weapon should I also not use AoE/Silver Sword or Ravager?
I'm also surprised that even with LOB/SCS game still seems easy with proper party, maybe for a power gaming there never will be content hard enough with proper management?
Kill stats so far 14% DD 21% FM 36% FMT (because of only fire damage killing all trolls from burning earth) 0% Skald 5% Sorc 22% WS->Druid
if I restrict myself from insta kill weapon should I also not use AoE/Silver Sword or Ravager?
Everything you do has to come from your own conviction. Be inspired by what other people report, but don't feel like you're forced into something you do not enjoy.
That being said, IR still has those weapons, and they still have instant kills - they're just way less powerful than they are without the mods, where a single character with Azuredge can just casually clear out a vampire lair and two liches while eating a sandwich with the other hand.
I'm also surprised that even with LOB/SCS game still seems easy with proper party, maybe for a power gaming there never will be content hard enough with proper management?
Difficulty comes primarily from mods, as the unmodded game is very easy even with LoB (see IWD where you don't have SCS and just steamroll your way through). If you feel your game is too easy, I would recommend checking out mods that make it harder. Like IR and SR! Strategies often decried as cheese are a particular target for those two mods (e.g. PfUndead/Magic scrolls) so you'll find yourself forced into very different strategies against enemies like for example the three Rakshasas you mentioned.
But there is, of course, no simple blanket solution that works for everyone. You'll have to figure out what's most fun for you, and how to challenge yourself. Sometimes that means mods, sometimes it can mean simply putting personal restrictions on yourself (like me not using summons, or not using Wish resting, or not using Spike Trap, etc.). Since the only goal here is your own enjoyment, you should not need anyone to police your play but yourself. Liberate yourself from conceived notions of pressure to perform and just enjoy the journey! That's what difficulty is all about, creating things that seem impossible at first and then gradually solving them. For yourself, and not for anyone else.
The idea behind it is to nerf acrane classes, while providing at least one line of defense for fighters.
Since you mention it, the acrane pool is indeed op, what about spells like PI, IA, TS..., have they been somehow "balanced" in SR?
No. Fwiw, my all-time-favourite SCS version was v21. For one reason alone- it had an option to remove Mislead and Simulacrum from mages, so I could pretend they don't exist at all.
PI is just as cheesy as it was in vanilla (bit less thou, no items allowed). AI doesn't use it, so it there to (ab)use at your leisure. Alacrity is the same and will stay, AI uses it regulary so there's not much that can be done. I think it's only available once, since SR makes HLAs innates. Time Stop is unchanged, AI also uses it, and it's kind of "set in stone" spell. Fwiw, I never use it... And would be thrilled if AI would skip using it as well. Just slows the game pace down. It was a cool spell with kensai/mages back in 2006, but kids grow up eventually...
Dearnise keep now. Easily cleared most while prebuffed for iron/clay golem. They were decently strong but and Iron Golem alone made me sad because DD was falling under his super fast APR crunched his 170HP in two rounds even under 83% DR makes me wonder how will DD perform later on, maybe better when he gets more AC? Hope so, otherwise next run I get FM or FMC tank or just go two tanks and archer.
Torgal down, fight was easier than anticipated, down on first try. Trolls stat drain was a bit of an issue but I guess they don't drain that often because they need to hand a hit. Vecna is super nice for instant greater malisons, slows, etc while kiting if they site on a sorc.
As expected simulacra wizard slayer disabled both yuan ti mages easily since they don't put PFMW, true sight from dual to druid was also exceptionally good here. Yuan Ti mages didn't also spell shield so breach stripped them off buffs on first shot.
I forgot to swap to FOA+3 on my DD for no save slow on torgal but DOE isn't bad either... sadly my AC is not as good as I wanted it o be at this moment so I don't want to dual wield FOA and DOE yet.
Well then, didn't play bg2 in year... where to now, maybe neera and rasaad quests since they provide nice rewards then shade dragon questline, or maybe planar shpere before that since bard hat is OP and kudane pewpew.
makes me wonder how will DD perform later on, maybe better when he gets more AC?
This is also a concern of mine. AC is not all that reliable when talking about LoB thac0 and APR values, as even at AC cap you get hit a fair amount. And golems hit HARD.
The answer is probably simply to get more damage reduction. You're not using IR so you're missing out on 20% from full plate armor, which would easily put you near or at complete immunity (of course IR also removes DR from items such as Defender of Easthaven). I think DD with an HP-draining weapon may be the way to go. Testing will tell.
A maxed-out Dwarven Defender can hit 90% resistance using Defensive Stance (50%), his or her innate resistances (20% at high levels), and the Defender of Easthaven (20%), probably in the off hand. Keep the Defender of Easthaven in the off hand and, when you reach ToB, put Foebane in the main hand to heal 4 HP per hit. The Silver Dragon Scale can also heal you 2 HP whenever you get hit, though I don't know where to find it.
If an enemy normally deals 50 damage per hit, like an LoB dragon, a Dwarven Defender in this setup will only take a net 3 damage per hit (5 base, minus 2 HP from the Silver Dragon Scale). And the dwarf can completely heal that damage using Foebane. And if you get overwhelmed, the dwarf's aura will be clear, and potions are much more meaningful when you're only taking a few points of damage per hit.
You don't normally think of fighter classes as gaining power exponentially as the game goes on, but damage resistance does grant exponential gains, and the Silver Dragon Scale and Foebane add even more. Your dwarf won't be at this stage until later, but once you do reach this point, your dwarf should be more or less invincible as long as Defensive Stance lasts, which is 10 rounds plus an extra 10 rounds per 4 levels, or 60 rounds by level 20.
Without haste or any other buffs, a Dwarven Defender would deal about 4000 damage before all those Defensive Stances runs out. And by the time it does happen, the dwarf should have several hundred extra HP from all the Foebane hits in the previous rounds. And if for some reason you need more, you can always invest in Hardiness as an alternative to Greater Whirlwind Attack or Power Attack.
And if your Charname is a Dwarven Defender and you're playing with Ascension installed, you can also tack on the 25% damage resistance you get from being rude to the Solar before you fight the Ravager, though you'll only be able to use it for the final battle.
The Silver Dragon Scale can also heal you 2 HP whenever you get hit, though I don't know where to find it.
Judging from the item code, my guess would be Dorn's ToB quest. I hate Dorn and never play with him so I don't know but he's the only one it makes sense for, really. Or it could be BP2 I guess, which I also never play.
I do agree that stacking DR on a DD is probably the way to go now that my dispel-immune F/M tanking is no longer a thing (it was fun while it lasted, though).
I did some 10-minute testing or so during a break just to check out The Vampire's Revenge, by the way. It appears that it's a "reasonably" cursed item, in that while you cannot switch weapons without breaking curse (which is annoying as hell I would imagine) it does not, in fact, kill you every time you rest or travel. It only seems to drain HP when you are actually there to witness the drain, not while hidden time passes. That at least makes it a LOT more convenient to use, and considering its location it can be accessed very early on in the game (if you make that a priority and don't mind running away a lot).
UPDATE
Another 10 minutes also revealed a huge problem in the setup. Apparently, enemies are scripted (by SCS or vanilla, no idea) to basically immediately switch away from any character under Defensive Stance. That means that the moment you activate DS (or the moment other characters not under DS enter the fight) enemies will, for the most part, stop what they're doing and beeline straight for the rest of the group if possible. What that means, it seems, is that you cannot tank effectively unless you either don't use DD, or have a choke point narrow enough to prevent run-by. The moment there's a gap large enough, enemies will come pouring in and break your formation to pieces.
@Lord_Tansheron I found out that when my entire party is under Iron Skins/Stone Skin (FM, FMT, Skald, Sorc, WS->Druid so all have it) then enemies prefer character without skins over others so I guess it works. So this check is higher in priority than DS check.
@semiticgod you described DD in almost exactly the same way as I did in my post. I even did this on this thread and this page. Great minds thin alike ya?
Comments
Don't forget to read through https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/62202/the-free-for-all-lob-scs-solo-challenge#latest as well
Thanks, but no thanks =D I am not that hardcore, I will running without SCS and full party ^_^
20 DR (level 20) + 20 DR (basic full plate) + 10 DR (Fortress Shield) + 50 DR (Defensive Stance) = full physical immunity. That's good.
A bit too good perhaps. IR was made before the EE were a thing, so it hasn't taken the DD into account in its basic design. So, using this combo is perhaps too close to an exploit than anything else...
Waiting until lvl 20 is sort of a big deal, too, considering most of early game is probably harder than the Underdark (to me anyway). Even with 80% DR, you'll still die to the huge pack of mobs at TorGal, for example. It'll just take 15 hits instead of 3, and it's not like you can heal up fast enough or something like that.
Also, level 20 is late, but not that much if you do everything in SoA. If you clear something like the two first floors of the Watcher's Keep, you'll get there somewhere in the Underdark.
That build can absolutely trivialize many fights. Put him in front of Ogremoch and let everyone else stand back and drink a nice cup of tea. No micromanaging to do, except refresh Defensive Stance once in a while.
I agree that it never will be as good as a fighter/mage in term of flexibility, LoB or not (because nothing can, really), but in term of DPS, you'll hardly find something better with that level of defensive power. With a bit of positionning, the DD could hold his own throughout the whole saga. Don't forget that you can also buff that guy up with arcane/divine spells. If you have a team around a DD, the possibilities seem quite tasty.
That means the comparison comes to the other extras. Damage output, for example. High Mastery isn't amazing since it lacks the APR of Grand Mastery, but it's something; unfortunately there aren't all that many great hammers or axes around, particularly in SoA. Crom Faeyr is one, but I'd rather put that on someone who can get the most out of it (i.e. a full-time damage dealer). Other weapons are equal between the two, since both get ** in anything. HLAs is another thing. You get more fighter HLAs on the DD, which means more GWWs. You do still pick GWWs practically exclusively on the F/M as well, of course, since Hardiness isn't all that great when your plan is to avoid all hits. You'll end up with a few extra GWWs on the DD, though, that is true.
So, do those extra GWWs compensate for the loss of being able to dispel mage protections, cast more haste (still useful even considering GWW and the IH nerf of SR), and do other useful things like cloud spells (interrupting casters in an area) and so on. I don't know, honestly. Gut feeling says no.
DD seems the stoutest pure fighter you can have in a IR/SR context though. Shorty saves plus Defensive Stance can push savings throws low enough to not be bothered even by SR changes. I still think that DD should be nerfed a bit (by taking away the 5% DR every 5 level, for instance), because, to have an unkillable f/m, you have to buff him up, and need to know how to keep those buffs up during longer fights. It's not as easy as it sounds (a good ol' dispel can disrupt the f/m in a real bad way). The DD, just by clicking on one ability and merely "stand here", could almost achieve similar invulnerability, and that goes against the scope of the IR/SR team, which is in part to avoid this type of exploit.
I'm testing DD so far I have mixed feelings so I'll try to sum up my observations
The good
1. In BGEE before mage tanks get enough mirror images/skins/ghost armor DD is far superior beacause of much higher HP pool and 50% DR (55% at end of BGEE).2. When 93% damage redution is reached all strong hits (50+ damage) suddengly do 4-5 damage, for character with 200+ HP this means you need to get hit 20 times to go down, bad and good at the same time. You can boost this further by having silver dragon armor geeting those 4-5 to 2-3 (2hp heal on hit taken) which then means 60-100 hits and starts being amazing, that's like 3 rounds of images and skins for single HP pool.
3. High DR gives good value to health potions because if your DD gets 2-3 damage per hit that means single pot is stone skin or more which is nice
4. Giving DD foebane (if your damage dealers use different weapon) gives you the best value from the heal component because when F/M ends getting hit he gets hit for A LOT where as DD can get 400+ hp with this combo, a monster value
5. Undispellable can't be stressed enough, theres just X amount of spell immunities that you can throw on yourself during the fight, while it's fine for most of the game level 6 is precious spell slot already
The bad
1. In SOD and until level 15/20 with DOE DD falls behind because F/M tanks get better AC which further goes down by things like improved invisibility etc, with only 55% I had to kite at big B couple of times but wasn't that bad with -17AC2. No veritality of a mage but this is neutral if you get other mage in the party anyway
3. Capped at -25AC where mages get things that work over this limit by reducing enemy hit chance rather than boosting AC, might be useful for LOB
Plus, Breach removes Dispelling Screen on a single character; it's not just Remove Magic.
It's possible that I'm using a different version of SR than you, since I usually try to have the latest beta rather than publicly available releases. Then again, it's been a while since I've checked the beta releases, too, so it's very possible mine is just outdated.
For reference, this is the spell description for me:
This spell creates a transparent, permeable barrier that shields the caster from Dispel Magic and similar spells. Furthermore, any spell effect that passes through the screen can potentially be dispelled by the energies of the barrier, effectively granting the caster 25% magic resistance.@Demivrgvs or @Aasim would know.
EDIT: I did some digging, and it does indeed seem that I'm using an outdated Beta version (v4.10.1). The most recent one seems to be v4.14, so I'll get that and use it in the future. But I don't think I have time to test it for a while
Dispelling Screen is essentially what used to be Spell Immunity. My version of SR (Beta v4.10.1) creates a buff on one target that will make it immune to Dispel/Remove Magic and give 25%. It can only be removed by effects that remove spell protections.
However the latest version of SR (Beta v4.14) has it as a party-wide buff that stops ONE Remove/Dispel Magic and then disappears. It does not grant MR and it can also be removed by things that remove protections (including Breach).
In light of that new version, I am planning to investigate the use of a DD as main tank, possibly using the mentioned healing weapons. When I have time
I'm not sure I'm happy with the current iteration either, considering how rampant dispels are on enemies. I mean, making dispels matter is all well and good but right now I feel like everything revolves around them :P
Maybe just another case of balance skewed because of extreme difficulty settings that only five people in the world will ever use. I can live with that.
I like my PC to be the "hero", not some summoned crap; maybe that's just me.
DS is definitely not balanced for LoB; but what is? You've got 9th level spells like Meteor Swarm that a gibberling will survive.
Right now I'm just lacking time. I'm sure there are ways to tackle LoB and make things very interesting indeed, but given my current constraints I'll just have to go step by step. See this is what happens when you get to play 2 weeks in a year ;/ I had not updated in a long, long time I'm ashamed to say...
So far everything is superb easy, additional levels from SOD seem to be OP even SCS mages fall quickly under WS->Druid and insect swarm. I've got burning earth +1 from my BG1EE gear and it's very strong. It's the only +4 weapon you can bring even if it's just against undead. Thanks to this and phantom blade spell for F/M i was easily able to kill vampire in irenicus dungeon.
Right of the dungeon usual order of business. I've pickpocketed boomerang dagger and gave it to WS->Druid. Happily druid dual can use daggers unlike cleric combo for shiny 3,5 apr which is nice for stacking miscast magic. Boomerang dagger even has very nice damage for dagger 2d4+2 competing with melee weapons. Circus went down so easily I almost forgot to write it down here.
I went to watchers keep to get crimson dart and golem manual nothing else is useful for me there as I can’t beat statues yet.
Slums quest was also easy, didn't use single summon here, sad part is that I got used to having archer in the party that getting tuigan bow made me sad because usually it's big power spike for my party. Noone in my party can use it
Before slaves quest I had enough money to bump my reputation to 17 then bit more after, with Hendak's discount azuredge did only cost me 2,5k. With this I was easily able to clear entire cementary. Greater malison with this axe is very strong combo, even strong undead fall for -8 save.
Optimistic about my party strenght I bought protection from undead scroll and my FMT quickly soloed gate lich, SCS blocks way out so it was only way to get him down at this level. Feels a bit cheesy but I guess putting additional restrictions upon yourself is a choice everyone has to make.
Later I went to find koshi for celestial fury... many reloads went into this fight. Strong mage with a lot of contigency spells so not even wizard slayer can shut him down. I hasted my FMT who kited part of the enemy group away while my main party handled koshi first so that I could identify the sword and give it my FM whos proficient in katanas/scmitars. This helped a lot as with greater malison sword stunlocks quite a lot even on LOB. Fight was way too hard, I should have saved this for later.
My First purchase was Defender of Eastheaven and after clearing temple district sewer party my DD has 83% physical resistance, already a decent value. Few more mini quests and thieving including skinner I was able to buy second purchase which was vahlior helmet for my WS->Druid, not sure yet who is this best on. I guess I will be swapping but simulacra WS can disable two mages at once which is very nice. I delay vecna but until alacrity mage can cast one spell per round anyway although sometimes it's useful to get your spells before enemies. Maybe I should put vecna on WS->Druid for instant insect swarm spells so she can get that 3,5APR within the same round.
Just before trademeet my sorcerer hit level 12 which granted him one of the most ridiculous spells, yes improved haste my friends. 3 casts of it.
Trademeet was next target... everything again relatively easy here, even spirit trolls were not match for me. Bridge was interesting 4 spore spawners created so many myconids that I'm not sure how long battle lasted but i ran out of spells. Didn't sleep before it though.
Getting belm from chest boosted APR of my FM celestial fury wielding killing machine up to 4, 8 under improved haste. Although I must remember for future rakasha with their insane level 7 spell immunity were simply too much, the only way to kill them here was protection from magic scroll and wait out their buffs, even then it took couple of reloads to take them down. Getting back to trademeet and finishing usual quests. Crypt usually was hard for me in the past but azuredge with greater malison, daystar with burning earth and CF rekt it within the round. My party is ridiculously strong at clearing undead enemies, this will be very useful in firkraag dungeon.
Lots of gold for getting this done, allowing me to buy belt of inertial barrier and vecna robes, power spike continues.
I'm also surprised that even with LOB/SCS game still seems easy with proper party, maybe for a power gaming there never will be content hard enough with proper management?
Kill stats so far
14% DD
21% FM
36% FMT (because of only fire damage killing all trolls from burning earth)
0% Skald
5% Sorc
22% WS->Druid
That being said, IR still has those weapons, and they still have instant kills - they're just way less powerful than they are without the mods, where a single character with Azuredge can just casually clear out a vampire lair and two liches while eating a sandwich with the other hand. Difficulty comes primarily from mods, as the unmodded game is very easy even with LoB (see IWD where you don't have SCS and just steamroll your way through). If you feel your game is too easy, I would recommend checking out mods that make it harder. Like IR and SR!
But there is, of course, no simple blanket solution that works for everyone. You'll have to figure out what's most fun for you, and how to challenge yourself. Sometimes that means mods, sometimes it can mean simply putting personal restrictions on yourself (like me not using summons, or not using Wish resting, or not using Spike Trap, etc.). Since the only goal here is your own enjoyment, you should not need anyone to police your play but yourself. Liberate yourself from conceived notions of pressure to perform and just enjoy the journey! That's what difficulty is all about, creating things that seem impossible at first and then gradually solving them. For yourself, and not for anyone else.
PI is just as cheesy as it was in vanilla (bit less thou, no items allowed). AI doesn't use it, so it there to (ab)use at your leisure. Alacrity is the same and will stay, AI uses it regulary so there's not much that can be done. I think it's only available once, since SR makes HLAs innates.
Time Stop is unchanged, AI also uses it, and it's kind of "set in stone" spell. Fwiw, I never use it... And would be thrilled if AI would skip using it as well. Just slows the game pace down. It was a cool spell with kensai/mages back in 2006, but kids grow up eventually...
Torgal down, fight was easier than anticipated, down on first try. Trolls stat drain was a bit of an issue but I guess they don't drain that often because they need to hand a hit. Vecna is super nice for instant greater malisons, slows, etc while kiting if they site on a sorc.
As expected simulacra wizard slayer disabled both yuan ti mages easily since they don't put PFMW, true sight from dual to druid was also exceptionally good here. Yuan Ti mages didn't also spell shield so breach stripped them off buffs on first shot.
I forgot to swap to FOA+3 on my DD for no save slow on torgal but DOE isn't bad either... sadly my AC is not as good as I wanted it o be at this moment so I don't want to dual wield FOA and DOE yet.
Well then, didn't play bg2 in year... where to now, maybe neera and rasaad quests since they provide nice rewards then shade dragon questline, or maybe planar shpere before that since bard hat is OP and kudane pewpew.
The answer is probably simply to get more damage reduction. You're not using IR so you're missing out on 20% from full plate armor, which would easily put you near or at complete immunity (of course IR also removes DR from items such as Defender of Easthaven). I think DD with an HP-draining weapon may be the way to go. Testing will tell.
If an enemy normally deals 50 damage per hit, like an LoB dragon, a Dwarven Defender in this setup will only take a net 3 damage per hit (5 base, minus 2 HP from the Silver Dragon Scale). And the dwarf can completely heal that damage using Foebane. And if you get overwhelmed, the dwarf's aura will be clear, and potions are much more meaningful when you're only taking a few points of damage per hit.
You don't normally think of fighter classes as gaining power exponentially as the game goes on, but damage resistance does grant exponential gains, and the Silver Dragon Scale and Foebane add even more. Your dwarf won't be at this stage until later, but once you do reach this point, your dwarf should be more or less invincible as long as Defensive Stance lasts, which is 10 rounds plus an extra 10 rounds per 4 levels, or 60 rounds by level 20.
Without haste or any other buffs, a Dwarven Defender would deal about 4000 damage before all those Defensive Stances runs out. And by the time it does happen, the dwarf should have several hundred extra HP from all the Foebane hits in the previous rounds. And if for some reason you need more, you can always invest in Hardiness as an alternative to Greater Whirlwind Attack or Power Attack.
And if your Charname is a Dwarven Defender and you're playing with Ascension installed, you can also tack on the 25% damage resistance you get from being rude to the Solar before you fight the Ravager, though you'll only be able to use it for the final battle.
I do agree that stacking DR on a DD is probably the way to go now that my dispel-immune F/M tanking is no longer a thing (it was fun while it lasted, though).
I did some 10-minute testing or so during a break just to check out The Vampire's Revenge, by the way. It appears that it's a "reasonably" cursed item, in that while you cannot switch weapons without breaking curse (which is annoying as hell I would imagine) it does not, in fact, kill you every time you rest or travel. It only seems to drain HP when you are actually there to witness the drain, not while hidden time passes. That at least makes it a LOT more convenient to use, and considering its location it can be accessed very early on in the game (if you make that a priority and don't mind running away a lot).
UPDATE
Another 10 minutes also revealed a huge problem in the setup. Apparently, enemies are scripted (by SCS or vanilla, no idea) to basically immediately switch away from any character under Defensive Stance. That means that the moment you activate DS (or the moment other characters not under DS enter the fight) enemies will, for the most part, stop what they're doing and beeline straight for the rest of the group if possible. What that means, it seems, is that you cannot tank effectively unless you either don't use DD, or have a choke point narrow enough to prevent run-by. The moment there's a gap large enough, enemies will come pouring in and break your formation to pieces.
Annoying.
@semiticgod you described DD in almost exactly the same way as I did in my post. I even did this on this thread and this page. Great minds thin alike ya?