I don't classify people into "Hardcore" and "casual", though, even among gamers, geeks/nerds or whatever, because that's like declaring some people second class citizens.
Is it, though? To me, it's nothing more than a measure of how much somebody puts into a hobby.
To me, the difference between a hardcore gamer and a casual gamer is similar to that between a football player who's a member of a club, and a guy who just goes for a kick-around in the park with his mates sometimes. Neither is wrong, or inferior. One simply takes his hobby to deeper levels than the other, and that's fine. I really can't stand snobbery of any kind, because at the end of the day, it's merely down to what people enjoy, and we all enjoy different things. Some people don't want to invest hours into an RPG, just like I can't be bothered to support a football team and get deeply invested in their performance in this year's particular tournament (which will happen again next year anyway), but I'll still watch the England matches in the World Cup. Does that make me less of a football fan than the hardcore football fans? Yes. Does it make me an inferior person? No.
Casual gamers probably have other hobbies that they like to develop, and have just as much right to look down on me for not watching soaps, or whatever, as I have to look down on them for only playing Candy Crush sometimes (i.e. "none at all" ). So while the definition exists so show the varying level of commitment one has, it certainly shouldn't be taken as an excuse to claim superiority over someone, because that Candy Crush player who sucks at Call of Duty could probably kick your arse at any other sport you could name.
Anyway I'll stop now, because I think I'm just repeating myself at this point...it's been a long week!
I have to say I strongly disagree with @dee. It is in NO WAY the responsibility of the writer/creator to censor himself for fear of offending anyone or the larger social consequences. S/he should tell whatever story they intend to tell, and if someone gets offended that's their problem. The social consequences of what someone does in response to a game is NOT the responsibility of the creator. The consumers actions are the consumers responsibility. Why? Cause we have free speech here in America, and people are not mindless drones controlled by some invisible corporate machine(though I guess that last one is debatable, but we just have to live under the assumption).
-- I'm talking specifically about story content. A game having sexist characters in it is not the same as a game being sexist. What exists in a story should not be taken as the writers message- it's just a story. Obviously if the game had some other part that was inherently sexist, racist, or wrong, that would not be acceptable. For example if D&D made women have a minus one to all their physical stat rolls. That would be sexist because it's a game mechanic out side of the story meant to reflect reality. If the game was set in a patriarchal medieval society and women characters where not allowed(by other characters within the constrains of the story) to be Knights, then that would not be sexist, because it's an element of the story not meant to reflect reality.
I agree with @Squire on the "hardcore" debate. Breaking people in categories is not inherently wrong. There's no reason we can't divide the gamers into to concrete and quantifiable categories. Apples are not oranges, even if some apple somewhere is offended by being called an apple.
Please do not mention me if you are going to insist on mischaracterizing what I'm saying after I've repeatedly clarified myself. What I am talking about is not censorship; it is not censorship to ask "what does this story say and is that what I want it to say?"
Seriously, quit editorializing my posts. If nothing else, THAT I find offensive.
I like this discussion, though we seem to have only gotten a few answers to the original question.
1: This is a silly question. 2: Because BG is frickin' awesome! 3: Because Dorn is hawt.
Ask the question to men and you'd probably just have to replace Dorn with Viconia.
Well, maybe not some men.
I don't think about this subject much, well, at all, because I've always thought of women as people like me. I actually have more female friends than male friends, for some reason. Maybe because they like that I don't judge them like so many other people do?
Please do not mention me if you are going to insist on mischaracterizing what I'm saying after I've repeatedly clarified myself.
I'm afraid that was all me so it is probably my fault. Rather than try to dig myself out of the hole I opted for the wiser course and simply stopped talking.
I like this discussion, though we seem to have only gotten a few answers to the original question.
1: This is a silly question. 2: Because BG is frickin' awesome! 3: Because Dorn is hawt.
Ask the question to men and you'd probably just have to replace Dorn with Viconia.
Well, maybe not some men.
I don't think about this subject much, well, at all, because I've always thought of women as people like me. I actually have more female friends than male friends, for some reason. Maybe because they like that I don't judge them like so many other people do?
I like this discussion, though we seem to have only gotten a few answers to the original question.
1: This is a silly question. 2: Because BG is frickin' awesome! 3: Because Dorn is hawt.
Ask the question to men and you'd probably just have to replace Dorn with Viconia.
Well, maybe not some men.
I don't think about this subject much, well, at all, because I've always thought of women as people like me. I actually have more female friends than male friends, for some reason. Maybe because they like that I don't judge them like so many other people do?
Every woman needs a gay friend, man.
Well, I'm not gay, I just thought it was something that should be pointed out.
Rasaad reminds me of my best friend IRL. Rasaad is a monk and my friend is a Martial Artist and plays Monks in RPGs. They both are heavily spiritual and are very deep in their philosophies. I'm currently using Rasaad for the first time in BG1:EE and am excited to see how he turns out in BG2:EE!
I think the real question is "Why don't more men and women play BG?"
I've been trying to convince my two IRL best friends to but one doesn't have the time and the other says the graphical style is old and unappealing, plus he's not a fan of WRPGs and mostly only plays JRPGs.
Edit: The not having time friend being female and the JRPG friend being male.
I've been trying to convince my two IRL best friends to but one doesn't have the time and the other says the graphical style is old and unappealing, plus he's not a fan of WRPGs and mostly only plays JRPGs.
Edit: The not having time friend being female and the JRPG friend being male.
LOL. A few years back I got my then GF hooked on Baldur's gate. Actually it started off with Diablo (1 actually) and then progressed from there. She now spends more time gaming than I do and does a LOT of MMO style games.
@Elrandir: I wouldn't get my hopes up. Easing somebody into something probably won't work unless they already have some interest in it. I don't think anybody could ease me into knitting or pro wrestling.
@Elrandir: I wouldn't get my hopes up. Easing somebody into something probably won't work unless they already have some interest in it. I don't think anybody could ease me into knitting or pro wrestling.
True. My youngest sister played a few RPGs but never quite got past the character creation screen (and I don't mean the number crunching/choosing skills/abilities part!!).
eta: I suppose I could have tried telling her there was a love story in it, but from what I've seen/heard, Anomen wasn't exactly a hit with the ladies! I think maybe Haer Dalis would have been a better option, he seemed more popular.
But then, we don't always get the one we want... in NWN, we had to settle for Aribeth...I wanted Sharwyn, dammit!!
@Squire Say, how old is your sister? Because back when I played BG2 for the first time as a teenager, I really liked Anomen. And even then, you could still get a mod for her (there is also one for Haer'Dalis, but I don't know if it's EE compatible yet) o.o
I think the real question is "Why don't more men and women play BG?"
It's an old, buggy game with a trite story and forgettable characters, and it's mechanics are incredibly dated and confusing at the same time. Hope This Helps
I think the real question is "Why don't more men and women play BG?"
It's an old, buggy game with a trite story and forgettable characters, and it's mechanics are incredibly dated and confusing at the same time. Hope This Helps
I mean this in the most positive and supportive way but...
With such an apparently low opinion of the game, why are you even here at this forum?
@Almateria: First, saying "Hope This Helps" is a very condescending way to conclude a point. Your post would have come off as much more respectful if you stopped at "time." Suffice to say, you've struck a nerve.
Second, Baldur's Gate is widely regarded in the gaming industry as one of the best RPGs around, even today. This isn't just its fans and it's not just this forum; many people in the industry hold BG as a gold standard for the quality of RPGs. Many developers specifically attempt to emulate BG in their own games. Bioware is famous specifically because of its early work on this saga. You're talking about one of the most well-respected games ever made. Check out its Wikipedia page.
In better detail: -I don't see any more bugs in BG than I do in other games. This is because bugs get fixed by patches. Download the patches. BG has been around a long time, and there have been lots of updates.
-The story isn't trite. It's one of the few games where you genuinely are not the chosen one, and where the plot is not handed to you. You really have to fight your way up to Sarevok's level, and scrounge up evidence of his plans on your own. And Sarevok's bizarre plan to attain godhood by manufacturing a war out of whole cloth, drawing on diverse organizations across the Sword Coast, is not one I have seen before myself. I'd like to see an explanation of why BG is trite... and an explanation that I can't apply to any other game on the market today or in the late 1990s when BG was created.
-The characters aren't forgettable. Again, developers and gamers both hold BG as a gold standard specifically for its character development. The first game's characters were a bit weaker, but the sequel is an excellent example of deep, colorful, detailed--and oftentimes quite subtle--character development.
-The mechanics aren't dated. You have the same basic mechanics in NWN2 and Dragon Age, both of which are very recent games. It's a bit like saying Super Mario World's mechanics are dated. Those mechanics are still here, years later, in basically every Mario game around.
-The mechanics aren't confusing. You click where you want to go. You click what you want to kill. You pause when you need time to think. And if you want to do something else, like using your thieving abilities, drinking a potion, or casting a spell, all of those are available in the little bar at the bottom of your screen. And there is a tutorial if you need it.
I think the real question is "Why don't more men and women play BG?"
It's an old, buggy game with a trite story and forgettable characters, and it's mechanics are incredibly dated and confusing at the same time. Hope This Helps
Comments
To me, the difference between a hardcore gamer and a casual gamer is similar to that between a football player who's a member of a club, and a guy who just goes for a kick-around in the park with his mates sometimes. Neither is wrong, or inferior. One simply takes his hobby to deeper levels than the other, and that's fine. I really can't stand snobbery of any kind, because at the end of the day, it's merely down to what people enjoy, and we all enjoy different things. Some people don't want to invest hours into an RPG, just like I can't be bothered to support a football team and get deeply invested in their performance in this year's particular tournament (which will happen again next year anyway), but I'll still watch the England matches in the World Cup. Does that make me less of a football fan than the hardcore football fans? Yes. Does it make me an inferior person? No.
Casual gamers probably have other hobbies that they like to develop, and have just as much right to look down on me for not watching soaps, or whatever, as I have to look down on them for only playing Candy Crush sometimes (i.e. "none at all"
Anyway I'll stop now, because I think I'm just repeating myself at this point...it's been a long week!
-- I'm talking specifically about story content. A game having sexist characters in it is not the same as a game being sexist. What exists in a story should not be taken as the writers message- it's just a story. Obviously if the game had some other part that was inherently sexist, racist, or wrong, that would not be acceptable. For example if D&D made women have a minus one to all their physical stat rolls. That would be sexist because it's a game mechanic out side of the story meant to reflect reality. If the game was set in a patriarchal medieval society and women characters where not allowed(by other characters within the constrains of the story) to be Knights, then that would not be sexist, because it's an element of the story not meant to reflect reality.
I agree with @Squire on the "hardcore" debate. Breaking people in categories is not inherently wrong. There's no reason we can't divide the gamers into to concrete and quantifiable categories. Apples are not oranges, even if some apple somewhere is offended by being called an apple.
Please do not mention me if you are going to insist on mischaracterizing what I'm saying after I've repeatedly clarified myself. What I am talking about is not censorship; it is not censorship to ask "what does this story say and is that what I want it to say?"
Seriously, quit editorializing my posts. If nothing else, THAT I find offensive.
1: This is a silly question.
2: Because BG is frickin' awesome!
3: Because Dorn is hawt.
Ask the question to men and you'd probably just have to replace Dorn with Viconia.
I don't think about this subject much, well, at all, because I've always thought of women as people like me. I actually have more female friends than male friends, for some reason. Maybe because they like that I don't judge them like so many other people do?
Also, in my case it was Imoen, not Viconia, who took my fancy (I was 19 when I started playing it so she was closer to my age then
Edit: The not having time friend being female and the JRPG friend being male.
eta: I suppose I could have tried telling her there was a love story in it, but from what I've seen/heard, Anomen wasn't exactly a hit with the ladies!
But then, we don't always get the one we want... in NWN, we had to settle for Aribeth...I wanted Sharwyn, dammit!!
https://gaming.youtube.com/watch?v=qXQuannq308
With such an apparently low opinion of the game, why are you even here at this forum?
Second, Baldur's Gate is widely regarded in the gaming industry as one of the best RPGs around, even today. This isn't just its fans and it's not just this forum; many people in the industry hold BG as a gold standard for the quality of RPGs. Many developers specifically attempt to emulate BG in their own games. Bioware is famous specifically because of its early work on this saga. You're talking about one of the most well-respected games ever made. Check out its Wikipedia page.
In better detail:
-I don't see any more bugs in BG than I do in other games. This is because bugs get fixed by patches. Download the patches. BG has been around a long time, and there have been lots of updates.
-The story isn't trite. It's one of the few games where you genuinely are not the chosen one, and where the plot is not handed to you. You really have to fight your way up to Sarevok's level, and scrounge up evidence of his plans on your own. And Sarevok's bizarre plan to attain godhood by manufacturing a war out of whole cloth, drawing on diverse organizations across the Sword Coast, is not one I have seen before myself. I'd like to see an explanation of why BG is trite... and an explanation that I can't apply to any other game on the market today or in the late 1990s when BG was created.
-The characters aren't forgettable. Again, developers and gamers both hold BG as a gold standard specifically for its character development. The first game's characters were a bit weaker, but the sequel is an excellent example of deep, colorful, detailed--and oftentimes quite subtle--character development.
-The mechanics aren't dated. You have the same basic mechanics in NWN2 and Dragon Age, both of which are very recent games. It's a bit like saying Super Mario World's mechanics are dated. Those mechanics are still here, years later, in basically every Mario game around.
-The mechanics aren't confusing. You click where you want to go. You click what you want to kill. You pause when you need time to think. And if you want to do something else, like using your thieving abilities, drinking a potion, or casting a spell, all of those are available in the little bar at the bottom of your screen. And there is a tutorial if you need it.
I kind of hope so.
Eh. Still more fun than Spirit Trolls.