@Gotural How is dual class bad? Dual classing from a Fighter into something is highly advised on a solo run. Even if it's just from level 3, like I did with my Fighter 3/ Thief 39.
My big "unpopular" opinion with this Amazing game is that the stat system is really bad. I might even go as far as to say that NWN2 did it better. This huge neutral ground with stats and almost no bonuses for semi-high stats and no penalties for semi-low or even VERY low stats is just bad. A character with 7 in Everything is basically the same as a character with 13 in Everything. I don't know anything about DnD pen and paper rules but I feel that someone really dropped the ball with the stat system as a whole. I feel EVERY Point should mean something. Both in conversations, combat, save vs something, romance options (NO the stat boosting items does NOT Count) etc. The stat system in the BG series is imho really odd and underutilized.
@wraith5641 This is only my opinion, but I think that your character would have been a lot better as a F/M/T or F/T instead of a Fighter 3 => Thief, especially if you were soloing the game.
*Casts Protection from Petrification* Your basilisk cannot save you now, Mutamin!
But in order to actually contribute to the discussion, why Original Sin? I haven't played as much of it as BG/IWD, but I'm not a fan of the combat system.
Also, seemingly unpopular opinion, I really dislike D&D 3rd edition and am fine with no IWD2EE (if that's how it goes down).
1, its combat system is true to its nature in appearance. When I first played BG; I didn't know what was going on, just that my character was attacking randomly, while the game is turn based it didn't feel turn based and hell it kind still doesn't. My second most played game of all time is final fantasy tactics, when I first played original sin; that was literally the first nostalgic feeling the game gave. It looked, felt, and tasted turn based and strategic. Of course there are some differences.
2. The combat system, specifically how the spells interact with the environment, only game I can remember off the top of my had that did that as well as sins did is magicka, which I need to god back and beat.
3. The puzzles! with the exception of durlag's tower; there isn't a single puzzle in BG that made me rage as hard as some of the stuff in OS. Maybe I'm just not a puzzle go, but when I got into that freaking temple and realized I had to take the wait of everything into consideration to open that freaking gate!
4. Bosses, so on who has harder boss fight, I can give to BG because part of the reason is I found OS' game play more tactical, so their boss fights were more fun to me; but OS has more memorable fight than me. The sourcer king... when I first him; I don't know if what happened was a bug or not, but I had to get freaking creative to win!
I think dual class mechanics are pretty frowned upon by most players. So I don't think it's unpopular to not like them. They can be powerful, especially berserker or kensai into mage because they are stronger for a large part of SoA where you have the most difficult battles. And they just blow the multi out of the water once they hit HLAs til the multi also gets HLAs.
The mechanics for dual classes are just plain stupid though. Fighting your way to level 7, 9 or 13 and then just forget all about fighting until you're a high level mage. What's the rationale behind that? Who came up with that? WHY?!
High level warriors should be the ones that walk up to dragons and trade blow for blow without gulping down healing potions and cowering behind magic items that a mage made for them or buffs that the mage cast on them. High level fighters should be things that mages avoid through trickery and magic because dealing with them is too damn awkward and dangerous, not things that mages ignore because they're too busy playing with real threats at the time.
And that really shouldn't be an unpopular opinion.
An adult Dragon is more than 20 metres long and weighs several tons. And there is your 30-120kg humanoid wielding weapons which couldn't even be considered toothpicks compared to the sheer size of a Dragon... I enjoy fighting Dragons a lot, and still these fights are among the biggest immersion-breakers in the game, since a bug-sized creature(in relation) shouldn't be anywhere this effective in combating these Behemoths.
In Vanilla for sure. It is absolutely disgraceful how whimpy he is for an Avatar of a divinelike entity. Thankfully there are Ascension + aTtweaks Fiends to do him justice.
Agree, in a way. What makes them suck, is not that they aren't useful, but their horrible selection of spells, and the lack of so many awesome Druid spells. You get a small handful of crazy good ones among a truckload of mediocrity. To a lesser extent, Clerics got shafted, too. A shame really, but the absurd bias towards arcane casters in the BG series is a well known flaw. In this regard, the IWD games did a much better job.
-Shadowdancer is the most powerful kit of the game.
This is hardly an unpopular opinion rather than stating the obvious about a horribly broken cheese kit.
So here are my two cents, although a lot of my views are shared with too many to really consider them unpopular
-BG2 is by far the better game compared to BG1, but BG1's world is lightyears ahead in terms of plausibility and staying true to D&D lore and rules.
-(some)Kits completely destroy the balance of BG1 and IWD. While it is understandable to allow them for BG1 for the sake of continuity, it was a horrible idea for IWD.
-There are no evil recruitable NPCs in the original BG series, even if Bioware tried to fool us by labeling some of them as such.
-Kensai + UAI is a combo broken beyond belief, despite being incredibly fun to play.
-Jon Irenicus is a flat and one-dimensional antagonist saved only by one of the best voice-acting performances in the history of gaming.
-The "story" of BG2:SoA in general is laughably bad.
-Since BG2, Bioware has effectively stopped writing new characters, instead we got to encounter the same NPCs under different disguises and names in their subsequent games again and again and again.
-The IE games in general do not feature real time combat, they are turn-based games with tacked on real time movement.
-Min/Maxers, excessive users of the Keeper, notorious Metagamers & Exploiters are baaaaaaad people and should be thunderstruck by Talos every time they are commiting their foul deeds.
-All D&D rulesets were and are full of absurd design decisions, no matter which edition. They all suck equally in that regard and will continue to do so till the sun goes red giant.
@Otherguy It's not that I dislike dual classes, I actually like some interesting combo like Assassin => Mage, Cleric => Mage and a few others. My unpopular opinion is that I think they aren't powergaming choice and that multis are nearly always better.
And they just blow the multi out of the water once they hit HLAs til the multi also gets HLAs.
It is interesting because it looks like you think a multiclass gets its HLAs after the dual class while it's the other way around. A dual class character gets its HLAs when his second class reach 3,000,000 XP, assuming of course that its previous class didn't got HLAs in the first place.
For a Kensai 13 => Thief, it is at 4,250,000 XP which is already in ToB. (Fighter 13 = 1,250,000 XP).
While multiclasses always got their HLAs at 3,000,000 total XP, which means that a F/M/T will get his HLAs at 1,000,000 XP Fighter, 1,000,000 XP Mage, 1,000,000 XP Thief.
A few people tend to think that multiclass characters get HLAs when all their classes have 3,000,000 XP but this isn't true.
@Gotural Lol Well, the idea for my solo run wasn't to just make it "easier", it was to make it "different." I wanted to see if I could solo the trilogy with a Thief, and I'm now fast approaching the end of the whole series having not faced *too* much trouble at all. The dualing from a level 3 Fighter was just for an important boost in stats. If I was a multi-class F/M/T or a F/T, that wouldn't have been a legitimate solo Thief run. And anyway, my current character is pretty much a F/M/T. He can use scrolls, he has decent HP with high THAC0, and his Thief abilities are through the roof.
As someone who dual-wields, being able to max out the number of pips on long swords and two weapon style was pretty vital early-game. Not being able to hit anything or do a significant amount of damage with a backstab would've been detrimental. That's why I dualed at level 3. Also, that extra half APR you get from GM is very important solo.
So dual classing has its uses, although it is best done with kits if you're looking for ways to powergame. You can't multi class with kits, and that is a huge drawback. Even if you dualed at level 2 from a Priest of Helm, you'll still have one use of True Sight (which we know is an awesome spell) and Seeking Sword, which is a +4 weapon! Dualing from a Berserker would give you the Berserker Rage ability, which gives you immunities to a lot of spells. Dualing from a Kensai would give you awesome combat bonuses. There are a plethora of combinations that give you some pretty good synergy that even multi class can't give you. If used properly, dual class is a solid way to go.
High level warriors should be the ones that walk up to dragons and trade blow for blow without gulping down healing potions and cowering behind magic items that a mage made for them or buffs that the mage cast on them. High level fighters should be things that mages avoid through trickery and magic because dealing with them is too damn awkward and dangerous, not things that mages ignore because they're too busy playing with real threats at the time.
And that really shouldn't be an unpopular opinion.
Sorry Gotural. I know how the HLAs work. I meant that the dual mage gets earlier access to level 9 spells which is a game-changer especially if you also have robe of vecna, although planetars alone makes a world of differance. If you compare to FMT (which is my favorite class) you get access to time-stop traps instead at the same time (a tad earlier to be fair) and the differance isnt quite as big. But compared to F/M multi the fighter HLAs are good, but not THAT good. I do not think they quite compare to mage level 9 spells or thief HLAs.
And powerful or not, the mechanic behind the dual class is imho a joke.
-There are no evil recruitable NPCs in the original BG series, even if Bioware tried to fool us by labeling some of them as such.
This. Especially Viconia. If she were written as REAL priestess of Shar, she'd be a better villain than Irenicus. After all, she's your friend and lover. You'd never see it coming.
One reason multiclass characters are better for me is that I always start from BG1, from the 1st level. This way, if I choose a character for dual-classing, I'm stuck with only half of what I want for days and days of playing through BG1.
I'm somewhat sure that 90% of players who think that multiclass characters are better start their characters designed for dual-classing in BG2.
Sorry Gotural. I know how the HLAs work. I meant that the dual mage gets earlier access to level 9 spells which is a game-changer especially...
F/M/Ts cannot get Lvl9 spells at all, unless you are operating with a xp-cap remover and additional means to ensure your F/M/T reaches the required 9million XP to get there
Korgan is even worse. There is just about nothing at all that would justify his CE alignment. He's likeable, dependable, honors his word, has a *very* clear opinion about people beating children, and this is all before you even get Mazzy into the party. Viconia at least reflects her alignment at the beginning, even though it becomes clear pretty quickly that she's destined to be lead into the light. The only mystery with her is indeed why Shar would even consider supporting her, given that she abandoned Lloth, because she had an obvious limit in her potential of evilness. But Korgan? According to Bioware, the use of harsh language obviously qualifies for CE.
F/M/Ts cannot get Lvl9 spells at all, unless you are operating with a xp-cap remover and additional means to ensure your F/M/T reaches the required 9million XP to get there
Although, come to think of it, the botched way of BG2's handling of Mage HLAs by simply adding them to the Lvl9 slots, could circumvent this. Too long ago, that I toyed with a F/M/T to remember
I made a long wall of text a year ago comparing the Kensai 13 => Mage and the Gnome Fighter/Illusionist at every stages of the whole saga, from Candlekeep to Melissan and the only moment the dual class was as strong as the multi was between 2,750,000 XP and 3,000,000 when he regained its Kensai's abilities while the Multi still didn't have access to HLAs.
I agree with @jinxed75 on this one, Kensage are overrated.
The Kensief is a badass. I used one of those in my first solo run. The only problem is that low-level Thieves SUCK in SoA. This makes the early part of the game quite rough. It's definitely worth it in the end, though.
Sorry, didnt want to discuss the merits of dual vs multi. I prefer multi myself but consider dual mages stronger until the multi gets access to level 9 spells which in a party takes forever and ever. I know very well that FMTs have to settle for level 8 spells, but imho the thief HLAs more than makes up for that. Stackable time-traps and spike traps are tactics I refuse to use since they take away a lot of the tactical challenges.
The way dual classing is implemented in the game is what I kinda hate, not multis which imho makes sense. There is basically no logic to duals whatsoever.
Kensief was my first complete playthrough and I feel they are kind of overrated too, more like what a pure thief should have been. Of the classic powergamer builds I prefer zerkmage for the blanket immunities if someone manages to dispel you. On a no-reload they can make a big difference for that "almost game over" moment, you get spell trigger with impr invis, SI: abj and SI: div very late after all.
Well if you go into those discussions, I liked fallout, iwd, bg because of the isometric view. I hated the first person player view and as a result I never got into (nor finished) neverwinter nights, fallout 3 and beyond. I even tried skyrim because I learned about the skill progression on doing things but no..... unable to finish it. Isometric >>>> 3d fps
Neverwinter Nights? The first was just standard third person camera and NWN2 had a top down/isometric camera option. Unless you just mean 3d in general.
@Gotural@bengoshi@Otherguy I think there's a difference in how you all are looking at dual classes: those against them are comparing them to the multiclass version, whereas those for dual classes are comparing it to the class they're dualing to. I tend to do the latter too, actually: when I dual from Fighter to Cleric, for example, I never really envisioned my character as a fighter/cleric, if that makes any sense. I see him instead mainly as a Cleric, that happens to be good at fighting. If there were another mechanism that would allow me to gain single-class advancement with Cleric but still have a few Fighter perks, I'd use it, but there isn't.
It's kind of like that old argument over Anomen and Viconia: those 7 Fighter levels make a relatively huge impact in Anomen's fighting prowess, to the point where Viconia almost literally has nothing going for her besides her DEX and her magic resistance. And, apparently, a decent romance, but that's neither here nor there. A Fighter/Cleric multi compared to either, though, has the disadvantage of slower spell progression. But is the dual class almost straight up superior to the single class? I'd argue yes, unless you want a kit from the second class. A Fighter 9/Cleric X is going to be weaker than the Fighter/Cleric multi at being a fighting cleric, but it's going to be a much Cleric than the Fighter/Cleric multi and a much better Fighter than a pure Cleric. Also, grandmastery in Slings .
Jan and Imoen are also good examples. With Jan, you have greater versatility and a good vision of what a character that's both a thief and a mage should feel like. However, no one advocates using Jan as your main mage due to the slower progression, but rather as a secondary. Imoen, on the other hand, can function as a main mage that just so happens to be able to use a bow and disarm traps and pick locks.
tldr; X dual Y is going to be worse than X/Y if the concept is for a character that's both X and Y. X dual Y is a better Y than the X/Y multi, and a better X than a single-class Y. If that makes any sense.
*Ahem* Unpopular opinions. Dual wielding is overrated. The Beastmaster kit is made out of win. Fighter is more interesting to play than any of the Fighter kits besides maybe Wizard Slayer. A Wizard Slayer makes a wonderful secondary character, even if not so much as the CHARNAME. 2H weapons are overrated. Aerie is the best example of Good in all the recruitable NPCs.
Here are some of my unpopular opinions, at least it is my impression they are unpopular...
*I cannot stand Viconia. I finally forced myself to complete her story and resisted the usual temptation of calling her a bitch. I look forward to the next time she comes along so I can go back to calling her names *Jaheira's romance progresses naturally and is paced quite slowly. It is the most engrossing and authentic of the romances by far. *Rasaad and Neera are awesome characters with good dialog and voice acting. So too Wilson, at least the first part. *Immersing myself in a character and really roleplaying is the surest path to enjoyment. *ToB is a lot of fun and is a satisfying conclusion to the saga. *Despite its flaws, I am extremely grateful to Beamdog for refreshing my love for this series. I didn't realize how much I missed BG until the fall of 2012. Thank you!!
Here are some of my unpopular opinions, at least it is my impression they are unpopular...
*I cannot stand Viconia. I finally forced myself to complete her story and resisted the usual temptation of calling her a bitch. I look forward to the next time she comes along so I can go back to calling her names *Jaheira's romance progresses naturally and is paced quite slowly. It is the most engrossing and authentic of the romances by far. *Rasaad and Neera are awesome characters with good dialog and voice acting. So too Wilson, at least the first part. *Immersing myself in a character and really roleplaying is the surest path to enjoyment. *ToB is a lot of fun and is a satisfying conclusion to the saga. *Despite its flaws, I am extremely grateful to Beamdog for refreshing my love for this series. I didn't realize how much I missed BG until the fall of 2012. Thank you!!
@Grum She is a strong independent woman who just doesn't know how to accurately express hwe emotions do to the emotionally abusive background that she grew up in. Add onto that she wrongfully has everything taken from her, her anger is justified!
Comments
I did play some PnP 3.5 games in my college years, and we rolled for stats, there was no +/- option.
So, no powergaming there
Why original sins?
Because
1, its combat system is true to its nature in appearance. When I first played BG; I didn't know what was going on, just that my character was attacking randomly, while the game is turn based it didn't feel turn based and hell it kind still doesn't. My second most played game of all time is final fantasy tactics, when I first played original sin; that was literally the first nostalgic feeling the game gave. It looked, felt, and tasted turn based and strategic. Of course there are some differences.
2. The combat system, specifically how the spells interact with the environment, only game I can remember off the top of my had that did that as well as sins did is magicka, which I need to god back and beat.
3. The puzzles! with the exception of durlag's tower; there isn't a single puzzle in BG that made me rage as hard as some of the stuff in OS. Maybe I'm just not a puzzle go, but when I got into that freaking temple and realized I had to take the wait of everything into consideration to open that freaking gate!
4. Bosses, so on who has harder boss fight, I can give to BG because part of the reason is I found OS' game play more tactical, so their boss fights were more fun to me; but OS has more memorable fight than me. The sourcer king... when I first him; I don't know if what happened was a bug or not, but I had to get freaking creative to win!
The mechanics for dual classes are just plain stupid though. Fighting your way to level 7, 9 or 13 and then just forget all about fighting until you're a high level mage. What's the rationale behind that? Who came up with that? WHY?!
I enjoy fighting Dragons a lot, and still these fights are among the biggest immersion-breakers in the game, since a bug-sized creature(in relation) shouldn't be anywhere this effective in combating these Behemoths. In Vanilla for sure. It is absolutely disgraceful how whimpy he is for an Avatar of a divinelike entity.
Thankfully there are Ascension + aTtweaks Fiends to do him justice. Agree, in a way. What makes them suck, is not that they aren't useful, but their horrible selection of spells, and the lack of so many awesome Druid spells.
You get a small handful of crazy good ones among a truckload of mediocrity. To a lesser extent, Clerics got shafted, too.
A shame really, but the absurd bias towards arcane casters in the BG series is a well known flaw. In this regard, the IWD games did a much better job.
*looks at your "Signature Character*...If one is willing to apply the same staggering amount of Keeper-Engineering as you are, than yes
So here are my two cents, although a lot of my views are shared with too many to really consider them unpopular
-BG2 is by far the better game compared to BG1, but BG1's world is lightyears ahead in terms of plausibility and staying true to D&D lore and rules.
-(some)Kits completely destroy the balance of BG1 and IWD. While it is understandable to allow them for BG1 for the sake of continuity, it was a horrible idea for IWD.
-There are no evil recruitable NPCs in the original BG series, even if Bioware tried to fool us by labeling some of them as such.
-Kensai + UAI is a combo broken beyond belief, despite being incredibly fun to play.
-Jon Irenicus is a flat and one-dimensional antagonist saved only by one of the best voice-acting performances in the history of gaming.
-The "story" of BG2:SoA in general is laughably bad.
-Since BG2, Bioware has effectively stopped writing new characters, instead we got to encounter the same NPCs under different disguises and names in their subsequent games again and again and again.
-The IE games in general do not feature real time combat, they are turn-based games with tacked on real time movement.
-Min/Maxers, excessive users of the Keeper, notorious Metagamers & Exploiters are baaaaaaad people and should be thunderstruck by Talos every time they are commiting their foul deeds.
-All D&D rulesets were and are full of absurd design decisions, no matter which edition. They all suck equally in that regard and will continue to do so till the sun goes red giant.
For a Kensai 13 => Thief, it is at 4,250,000 XP which is already in ToB. (Fighter 13 = 1,250,000 XP).
While multiclasses always got their HLAs at 3,000,000 total XP, which means that a F/M/T will get his HLAs at 1,000,000 XP Fighter, 1,000,000 XP Mage, 1,000,000 XP Thief.
A few people tend to think that multiclass characters get HLAs when all their classes have 3,000,000 XP but this isn't true.
As someone who dual-wields, being able to max out the number of pips on long swords and two weapon style was pretty vital early-game. Not being able to hit anything or do a significant amount of damage with a backstab would've been detrimental. That's why I dualed at level 3. Also, that extra half APR you get from GM is very important solo.
So dual classing has its uses, although it is best done with kits if you're looking for ways to powergame. You can't multi class with kits, and that is a huge drawback. Even if you dualed at level 2 from a Priest of Helm, you'll still have one use of True Sight (which we know is an awesome spell) and Seeking Sword, which is a +4 weapon! Dualing from a Berserker would give you the Berserker Rage ability, which gives you immunities to a lot of spells. Dualing from a Kensai would give you awesome combat bonuses. There are a plethora of combinations that give you some pretty good synergy that even multi class can't give you. If used properly, dual class is a solid way to go.
Come at me, bro!
And powerful or not, the mechanic behind the dual class is imho a joke.
Especially Viconia. If she were written as REAL priestess of Shar, she'd be a better villain than Irenicus. After all, she's your friend and lover. You'd never see it coming.
I'm somewhat sure that 90% of players who think that multiclass characters are better start their characters designed for dual-classing in BG2.
I start at bg1, and I don't like to multi or dual class.
@BillyYank
Korgan is even worse. There is just about nothing at all that would justify his CE alignment. He's likeable, dependable, honors his word, has a *very* clear opinion about people beating children, and this is all before you even get Mazzy into the party.
Viconia at least reflects her alignment at the beginning, even though it becomes clear pretty quickly that she's destined to be lead into the light.
The only mystery with her is indeed why Shar would even consider supporting her, given that she abandoned Lloth, because she had an obvious limit in her potential of evilness.
But Korgan? According to Bioware, the use of harsh language obviously qualifies for CE.
Next unpopular opinion: Kensage=overrate much
I agree with @jinxed75 on this one, Kensage are overrated.
The way dual classing is implemented in the game is what I kinda hate, not multis which imho makes sense. There is basically no logic to duals whatsoever.
Kensief was my first complete playthrough and I feel they are kind of overrated too, more like what a pure thief should have been. Of the classic powergamer builds I prefer zerkmage for the blanket immunities if someone manages to dispel you. On a no-reload they can make a big difference for that "almost game over" moment, you get spell trigger with impr invis, SI: abj and SI: div very late after all.
It's kind of like that old argument over Anomen and Viconia: those 7 Fighter levels make a relatively huge impact in Anomen's fighting prowess, to the point where Viconia almost literally has nothing going for her besides her DEX and her magic resistance. And, apparently, a decent romance, but that's neither here nor there. A Fighter/Cleric multi compared to either, though, has the disadvantage of slower spell progression. But is the dual class almost straight up superior to the single class? I'd argue yes, unless you want a kit from the second class. A Fighter 9/Cleric X is going to be weaker than the Fighter/Cleric multi at being a fighting cleric, but it's going to be a much Cleric than the Fighter/Cleric multi and a much better Fighter than a pure Cleric. Also, grandmastery in Slings
Jan and Imoen are also good examples. With Jan, you have greater versatility and a good vision of what a character that's both a thief and a mage should feel like. However, no one advocates using Jan as your main mage due to the slower progression, but rather as a secondary. Imoen, on the other hand, can function as a main mage that just so happens to be able to use a bow and disarm traps and pick locks.
tldr; X dual Y is going to be worse than X/Y if the concept is for a character that's both X and Y. X dual Y is a better Y than the X/Y multi, and a better X than a single-class Y. If that makes any sense.
*Ahem* Unpopular opinions.
Dual wielding is overrated.
The Beastmaster kit is made out of win.
Fighter is more interesting to play than any of the Fighter kits besides maybe Wizard Slayer.
A Wizard Slayer makes a wonderful secondary character, even if not so much as the CHARNAME.
2H weapons are overrated.
Aerie is the best example of Good in all the recruitable NPCs.
*I cannot stand Viconia. I finally forced myself to complete her story and resisted the usual temptation of calling her a bitch. I look forward to the next time she comes along so I can go back to calling her names
*Jaheira's romance progresses naturally and is paced quite slowly. It is the most engrossing and authentic of the romances by far.
*Rasaad and Neera are awesome characters with good dialog and voice acting. So too Wilson, at least the first part.
*Immersing myself in a character and really roleplaying is the surest path to enjoyment.
*ToB is a lot of fun and is a satisfying conclusion to the saga.
*Despite its flaws, I am extremely grateful to Beamdog for refreshing my love for this series. I didn't realize how much I missed BG until the fall of 2012. Thank you!!
(2) Agreed
(3) Agreed
(4) Agreed
(5) Somewhat agree...
(6)Agreed!
Your opinions are not that unpopular
You hate my Viconia, you do know that we can't be friends anymore, right?
Anomen might be a jerk, but he isn't emotionally abusive like her.
She is a strong independent woman who just doesn't know how to accurately express hwe emotions do to the emotionally abusive background that she grew up in. Add onto that she wrongfully has everything taken from her, her anger is justified!