All the original bioware female romances are wonderfully well written and implemented, as evidenced by the fact that over 16 years later they are still being argued over by a community of young and old newbies and veterans. Each of them can be hated by one player and loved by another player; not one of them is generally despised by all players as a whole, but most players do not like all of them.
Druids suck because they are D&Ds version of the grossly overpaid-to-accomplish-nothing-despite-our-lipservice environmentalist politicians. I hate Druids, and hate Jaheira just because she is so damn good at being a Druid. I hate Cernd because he is a Druid. Shadowkeeper is he only reason that i have been able to bring Jaheira along past chateau Irenicus.
Anomen is not as annoying as everyone says (although his romance is clearly indicative of the audience bioware expected to play their games).
There is no higher good served by following the rules in this game. There are no rules in his game except for the ones that you want to follow.
I like racial restrictions on classes, too, although I don't agree with all of them. I think dwarves could be Paladins, but don't think halflings should be mages.
I dont like the halfling theif stereotype. Thank you Mazzy for not being a theif. I just wish you weren't a wannabe paladin.
I don't like how some D&D games try to stick out by introducing insanely unique character concepts, such as a dwarven fighter monk wannabe. You can stick out by investing in good writing, not unique writing.
@Grum She is a strong independent woman who just doesn't know how to accurately express hwe emotions do to the emotionally abusive background that she grew up in. Add onto that she wrongfully has everything taken from her, her anger is justified!
Neverwinter Nights? The first was just standard third person camera and NWN2 had a top down/isometric camera option. Unless you just mean 3d in general.
maybe I used the wrong terminology, but the 3d really ruined it for me. Both nwn had camera mods to make them first person and isometric but I forgot what the default was.
Lots of BG2 players actually DO like the Saerileth mod, as evidenced by the fact that it still gets downloads. They are just to afraid to say it because of all the haters out there.
Had to look up saerileth, ahh... I remember that one. First dialogue: Horrible voice (no offense) and nonsensicle content. It basically was this..... hi, you are a stranger but I love you, i am super young and bubbly, I have to kill a dragon because of a silly reason, lets go! .... and then I stopped there and uninstalled.
A lot of mods get installed via bws, does not mean they all get play time at all times.
Sorcerers in IWD are total balance breakers, and should have never been included in a game as a playable class. There should be an optional patch to permanently delete them from the game.
@dok0zhivago Actually, that's a pretty popular opinion. I soloed IWD with one and it was clear by the middle of the game that they had no place in it.
Browsing this forum, I was under the impression that the sorcerer was the one true class to rule them all But I am glad that I am not alone in my dislike of sorcerers in IWD
@Grum She is a strong independent woman who just doesn't know how to accurately express hwe emotions do to the emotionally abusive background that she grew up in. Add onto that she wrongfully has everything taken from her, her anger is justified!
Unpopular and humble opinion: Noone should ever have the evil NPCs tag along, ever. There is simply no reason to play evil in this game and even if you play an evil charname he/she would be best served staying at a high reputation with loyal NPC followers aka good or neutral ones. Being selfish, untrustworthy and unreliable are not character traits that should tell you they're good to have at your back in a tight spot.
@dok0zhivago They definitely have many advocates in terms of the BG series (including myself), but most people on here played IWD before the EE, so they remember what it was like without them. IWD was designed with only the basic classes in mind. You didn't even have dual-wielding in the original. With all the extra stuff added, the game started to lean a little bit too much on the cheesy side because the devs didn't really focus on the balance, they just moved everything straight across from BG2, and it doesn't take you long before you can clearly see that.
Unpopular and humble opinion: Noone should ever have the evil NPCs tag along, ever. There is simply no reason to play evil in this game and even if you play an evil charname he/she would be best served staying at a high reputation with loyal NPC followers aka good or neutral ones. Being selfish, untrustworthy and unreliable are not character traits that should tell you they're good to have at your back in a tight spot.
I play along the line of being CG-CN and always have some "evil" NPCs tagging along. Mixed alignment parties are the most fun ones. They provide for the most fun and interesting banter. Besides, as I said before, there are no really evil NPCs in the series. The only unreliable, betraying NPC in the whole series as flagged as TN. Also, considering your heritage, it is perfectly viable to play an evil PC.
Another one from me
-Oracle is superior to True Sight/Seeing, Detect Illusion rules supreme. The way TS works just leaves way too much room for the opposition to do unpleasant things until the next round starts. TS is ok if seen as a Priest buff, but when it gets to dispelling Illusions when it is actually necessary, it's pretty unreliable.
It's not only the Sorcerer in IWD. Allowing an Undead Hunter in a game, where almost 50% of your opposition consists of undead is just crazy. Same goes for the Archer, and most of the other kits.
I still have my box set of IWD + HoW & IWD2 sitting on the shelf If I remeber correctly, vanilla IWD version of dual-wielding was an exclusive ranger skill. If you had a one hander equipped and the character's off hand was free you would get an extra attack. As far as cleric, fighter, rouge and bard kits go, I find them a nice addition to the game. Nothing game breaking there. But I agree that Sorcerer should stayed a Baldur's Gate exclusive. BG series is an epic high level saga while IWD is at heart a good old fashioned D&D dungeon crawl. Or to put it another way: Baldur's Gate saga = Saving private Ryan Icewind Dale = Where Eagles Dare
(which would make Icewind Dale 2 = The Dirty Dozen )
Unpopular and humble opinion: Noone should ever have the evil NPCs tag along, ever. There is simply no reason to play evil in this game and even if you play an evil charname he/she would be best served staying at a high reputation with loyal NPC followers aka good or neutral ones. Being selfish, untrustworthy and unreliable are not character traits that should tell you they're good to have at your back in a tight spot.
That would be my opinion, except... The Evil characters generally tend to be pretty loyal, easy going and trustworthy.
Viconia - Never betrays you, even when it is in her best interests. Would not kill a baby. Declares her undying loyalty to your cause to the extent of following you to hell and back. Edwin - Never betrays you, despite the Tourette's, never initiates fights with other party members. Korgan - Totally against killing young'uns, loyal, friendly, and true to his word.
Anomen - Totally shanks a young innocent girl, given half an opportunity. Jaheira - Totally betrays you to the Harpers, twice. Once by ditching the team out in the wilderness right after you saved her life, and then immediately after by leading you into a trap. Valygar - Totally attacks Viconia on slight provocation. Minsc - Totally attacks Edwin on slight provocation. Almost attacks you at the start, and constantly goes into a berserk state where he attacks the whole party. Keldon - Totally attacks Viconia because he's a racist jerk. Totally attacks the PARTY, good aligned or no, if they decline to fawn over him in the sewers. Haerdalis - Totally treats Aerie like an object, and potentially betrays you by fighting over her. Cernd - Ugh. Deadbeat hobo dad? Anyone? Yoshimo - Is totally and utterly loyal to the team. Not necessarily your team, but y'know. Nalia - Bourgeoisie oppressor.
I think looking at all that we can clearly see the true enemy here.
Korgan mentions about how he killed injured comrades. He doesn't betray you because you remain useful. He also murdered two previous party members for insulting him
Edwin betrayed both the Thayans and Maevar
Viconia is an odd case. She comes across as being too weak to survive on her own and sticks to charname because of it (flaming fist in bg1, some farmers before that, some fanatics in bg2). But she rejoiced at every evil decision charname makes and complains about good ones. She comes across pretty evil unless she is redeemed
---
Your arguments about other npcs first hit on neutral ones. So I'll ignore those, including neutral Anomen (he stood on the precipice, ready to fall from grace. It takes charname to save him, hence why he doesn't start out good)
Keldorn: Viconia openly worships an evil goddess, pings evil, acts evil and is drow . Why not kill her?
Valygar: See above only replace pings evil with being very insulting towards him. Seemed legit to me.
Minsc: Edwin did his very best to kill Minsc's friend and charge. He then openly mocked her death more than once. Why not kill him?
Korgan - Two party members? Bespawl all that! Nonsense! Steel was drawn with cold intent, @Grum, and ye're well aware of the trespass! Edwin - Had a job to infiltrate Maevar's guild and and betray him in exchange for payment... Okay, sounds familiar? And betrays the Thayans? So he's not on good terms with an evil organisation of wizards? Viconia - She's loyal yet self-interested? Sure, I can get behind that. Does that make her a bad team mate, or particularly worse than someone who is nominally benevolent yet betrays you to a goodly organisation?
Keldorn - One bad day away from slaughtering the temple of Talos, then? You're not painting a sane, reasonable individual here. He's racist against Drow, he attacks people who ping good, even while acknowledging that if they do not fight back he will kill them in cold blood.
Valygar - Oh, so it's okay to murder party mates who insult you when they're Drow, but not when they're evil humans who draw steel?
Minsc - Once again, it's fine to kill Edwin for being obnoxious, but not for Korgan? Better watch out, Jan! Minsc is gunning for you next, if he doesn't kill you in one of his psychotic uncontrollable rages.
No, I'm not saying that evil partymates are sunshine and daisies, just that there's really not much difference between them and anyone else in your band of international murder hobos.
Also I totally win this thread, because your opinion was more popular than mine.
Korgan - Two party members? Bespawl all that! Nonsense! Steel was drawn with cold intent, @Grum, and ye're well aware of the trespass! Edwin - Had a job to infiltrate Maevar's guild and and betray him in exchange for payment... Okay, sounds familiar? And betrays the Thayans? So he's not on good terms with an evil organisation of wizards? Viconia - She's loyal yet self-interested? Sure, I can get behind that. Does that make her a bad team mate, or particularly worse than someone who is nominally benevolent yet betrays you to a goodly organisation?
Keldorn - One bad day away from slaughtering the temple of Talos, then? You're not painting a sane, reasonable individual here. He's racist against Drow, he attacks people who ping good, even while acknowledging that if they do not fight back he will kill them in cold blood.
Valygar - Oh, so it's okay to murder party mates who insult you when they're Drow, but not when they're evil humans who draw steel?
Minsc - Once again, it's fine to kill Edwin for being obnoxious, but not for Korgan? Better watch out, Jan! Minsc is gunning for you next, if he doesn't kill you in one of his psychotic uncontrollable rages.
No, I'm not saying that evil partymates are sunshine and daisies, just that there's really not much difference between them and anyone else in your band of international murder hobos.
Also I totally win this thread, because your opinion was more popular than mine.
Korgan: You ignore the fact that in his dialogue he mentions killing wounded party members (as opposed to...paying a few hundred gold to heal them?) and of his past party he did kill two of them. An argument broke out, they pulled a weapon and he murdered both. The rest of the party goes on with their job and he murders them too.
Edwin: There is no evidence that Edwin was sent to infiltrate Maevar's guild. It isn't like you are told to meet him as he is a plant. No, he pretty much says that he sees where the winds are blowing.
Keldorn: Look at what Sharans do. In BG1EE and BG2EE they are Evil with a capital E. Then a *drow*, who are known throughout the realms for being 99.9% evil, comes up. She outright says that she worships an evil goddess. He uses his paladin senses and sees that she too pings evil. Hanging out with her shows that she rejoices when evil things are done and complains when good things are done. Why wouldn't a paladin kill that? And when you say he is racist, I call you on that. He does meet a good drow when you infiltrate the drow city. The drow shows proof that he is good and seeks others who are good. Does Keldon kill him? Nope! He lets the drow go on his merry goody two shoes way. Keldorn only kills those who are proven to be evil. Because you know, he is a paladin.
Valygar: It is alright to kill anyone who is an open worshiper of Shar. It is alright to see a drow with complete and utter apprehension and a lack of trust. When a Shar worshiping drow goes out of its way to insult you...well...quite reasonable to rid the world of the evildoer.
Minsc: Edwin wasn't just being obnoxious. He outright tried to murder Minsc's friend and comrade. He then goads Minsc into a battle. Absolutely right for him to take him down.
I see a night and day difference between Keldorn and Edwin.
And yes you do win in this thread.
------------------------------
Now then, my unpopular opinion!
Korgan should be Chaotic Neutral. Or at least turn Chaotic Neutral when he is in a party with Mazzy. She unlocks dialogue that shows just how tortured a soul Korgan is, explains why he is so violent, and Korgan finally lets his soft side show. He even promises to try and channel his rage towards appropriate targets. In no way does he become a good guy, but she does bring out the best in him. Combined with his strange sense of morals (ie: his hatred of slavers who deal in children) and I see him fitting the CN profile better than CE.
Not sure if this is an unpopular opinion or not...
I think that the alignments in D&D are just ways for gamers to not feel guilty about killing someone in game. It doesn't really work in real life. For example, I have heard in P&P games before, when the players are presented with a moral dilemma, "Well, he was evil. So there." Alignments, in addition to being a role-playing tool, are just rational to keep real life players' consciences clean. You can't be up all night worrying about that orc raider's wife and kids at home now, can you?
So...Keldorn killing Viconia, Minsc killing Edwin... makes perfect sense to me. I have zero guilt.
You are talking about meta here guys. From what you know of the evil NPCs when you meet them you should never have them join you if you're even half sane. All the arguments about what actually happens later aren't really important.
But if staying true to lore everyone should kill Viconia for being a priestess of Shar, yes even evil charnames unless you yourself also worship Shar.
Edvin is a red wizard, noone would ever trust a red wizard, not even red wizards!
Korgan is odd and doesn't really fit as CE, but from your initial conversations with him you would be crazy to have him at your back, or front, or anywhere around you really.
Dorn and Hexxat are CE as in crazy evil, that's not a good alignment.
You are talking about meta here guys. From what you know of the evil NPCs when you meet them you should never have them join you if you're even half sane. All the arguments about what actually happens later aren't really important.
But if staying true to lore everyone should kill Viconia for being a priestess of Shar, yes even evil charnames unless you yourself also worship Shar.
Edvin is a red wizard, noone would ever trust a red wizard, not even red wizards!
Korgan is odd and doesn't really fit as CE, but from your initial conversations with him you would be crazy to have him at your back, or front, or anywhere around you really.
Dorn and Hexxat are CE as in crazy evil, that's not a good alignment.
I think it's pretty "meta" to know who the hell Shar is in the first place.
For me, as a bhaalspawn, all the deities mentioned are taken with a large pinch of salt. If you don't take the view that there can be ambiguities between good/evil then it would be best for everyone that Charname commited suicide after reading Gorion's letter. Evil God's blood, exterminate, exterminate............
In fact as Charname, it's imperative for them to allow people the benefit of the doubt as the whole saga rests on that being done for you by Gorion and others.
Comments
I've ever eaten a god before, I wonder if they taste like chicken?
All the original bioware female romances are wonderfully well written and implemented, as evidenced by the fact that over 16 years later they are still being argued over by a community of young and old newbies and veterans. Each of them can be hated by one player and loved by another player; not one of them is generally despised by all players as a whole, but most players do not like all of them.
Druids suck because they are D&Ds version of the grossly overpaid-to-accomplish-nothing-despite-our-lipservice environmentalist politicians. I hate Druids, and hate Jaheira just because she is so damn good at being a Druid. I hate Cernd because he is a Druid. Shadowkeeper is he only reason that i have been able to bring Jaheira along past chateau Irenicus.
Anomen is not as annoying as everyone says (although his romance is clearly indicative of the audience bioware expected to play their games).
There is no higher good served by following the rules in this game. There are no rules in his game except for the ones that you want to follow.
I like racial restrictions on classes, too, although I don't agree with all of them. I think dwarves could be Paladins, but don't think halflings should be mages.
I dont like the halfling theif stereotype. Thank you Mazzy for not being a theif. I just wish you weren't a wannabe paladin.
I don't like how some D&D games try to stick out by introducing insanely unique character concepts, such as a dwarven fighter monk wannabe. You can stick out by investing in good writing, not unique writing.
Lots of BG2 players actually DO like the Saerileth mod, as evidenced by the fact that it still gets downloads. They are just to afraid to say it because of all the haters out there.
Don't stone me!
*grabs a stone
*struggles to lift it
*realizes the stone is too big
*looks for a pebble
First dialogue: Horrible voice (no offense) and nonsensicle content. It basically was this..... hi, you are a stranger but I love you, i am super young and bubbly, I have to kill a dragon because of a silly reason, lets go! .... and then I stopped there and uninstalled.
A lot of mods get installed via bws, does not mean they all get play time at all times.
Sorcerers in IWD are total balance breakers, and should have never been included in a game as a playable class.
There should be an optional patch to permanently delete them from the game.
Took cover, now fire away
But I am glad that I am not alone in my dislike of sorcerers in IWD
Yep, friends we cannot be.
Besides, as I said before, there are no really evil NPCs in the series. The only unreliable, betraying NPC in the whole series as flagged as TN.
Also, considering your heritage, it is perfectly viable to play an evil PC.
Another one from me
-Oracle is superior to True Sight/Seeing, Detect Illusion rules supreme. The way TS works just leaves way too much room for the opposition to do unpleasant things until the next round starts. TS is ok if seen as a Priest buff, but when it gets to dispelling Illusions when it is actually necessary, it's pretty unreliable.
@wraith5641
It's not only the Sorcerer in IWD. Allowing an Undead Hunter in a game, where almost 50% of your opposition consists of undead is just crazy. Same goes for the Archer, and most of the other kits.
I still have my box set of IWD + HoW & IWD2 sitting on the shelf
If I remeber correctly, vanilla IWD version of dual-wielding was an exclusive ranger skill. If you had a one hander equipped and the character's off hand was free you would get an extra attack.
As far as cleric, fighter, rouge and bard kits go, I find them a nice addition to the game. Nothing game breaking there.
But I agree that Sorcerer should stayed a Baldur's Gate exclusive.
BG series is an epic high level saga while IWD is at heart a good old fashioned D&D dungeon crawl.
Or to put it another way:
Baldur's Gate saga = Saving private Ryan
Icewind Dale = Where Eagles Dare
(which would make Icewind Dale 2 = The Dirty Dozen
Viconia - Never betrays you, even when it is in her best interests. Would not kill a baby. Declares her undying loyalty to your cause to the extent of following you to hell and back.
Edwin - Never betrays you, despite the Tourette's, never initiates fights with other party members.
Korgan - Totally against killing young'uns, loyal, friendly, and true to his word.
Anomen - Totally shanks a young innocent girl, given half an opportunity.
Jaheira - Totally betrays you to the Harpers, twice. Once by ditching the team out in the wilderness right after you saved her life, and then immediately after by leading you into a trap.
Valygar - Totally attacks Viconia on slight provocation.
Minsc - Totally attacks Edwin on slight provocation. Almost attacks you at the start, and constantly goes into a berserk state where he attacks the whole party.
Keldon - Totally attacks Viconia because he's a racist jerk. Totally attacks the PARTY, good aligned or no, if they decline to fawn over him in the sewers.
Haerdalis - Totally treats Aerie like an object, and potentially betrays you by fighting over her.
Cernd - Ugh. Deadbeat hobo dad? Anyone?
Yoshimo - Is totally and utterly loyal to the team. Not necessarily your team, but y'know.
Nalia - Bourgeoisie oppressor.
I think looking at all that we can clearly see the true enemy here.
Korgan mentions about how he killed injured comrades. He doesn't betray you because you remain useful. He also murdered two previous party members for insulting him
Edwin betrayed both the Thayans and Maevar
Viconia is an odd case. She comes across as being too weak to survive on her own and sticks to charname because of it (flaming fist in bg1, some farmers before that, some fanatics in bg2). But she rejoiced at every evil decision charname makes and complains about good ones. She comes across pretty evil unless she is redeemed
---
Your arguments about other npcs first hit on neutral ones. So I'll ignore those, including neutral Anomen (he stood on the precipice, ready to fall from grace. It takes charname to save him, hence why he doesn't start out good)
Keldorn: Viconia openly worships an evil goddess, pings evil, acts evil and is drow . Why not kill her?
Valygar: See above only replace pings evil with being very insulting towards him. Seemed legit to me.
Minsc: Edwin did his very best to kill Minsc's friend and charge. He then openly mocked her death more than once. Why not kill him?
Edwin - Had a job to infiltrate Maevar's guild and and betray him in exchange for payment... Okay, sounds familiar? And betrays the Thayans? So he's not on good terms with an evil organisation of wizards?
Viconia - She's loyal yet self-interested? Sure, I can get behind that. Does that make her a bad team mate, or particularly worse than someone who is nominally benevolent yet betrays you to a goodly organisation?
Keldorn - One bad day away from slaughtering the temple of Talos, then? You're not painting a sane, reasonable individual here. He's racist against Drow, he attacks people who ping good, even while acknowledging that if they do not fight back he will kill them in cold blood.
Valygar - Oh, so it's okay to murder party mates who insult you when they're Drow, but not when they're evil humans who draw steel?
Minsc - Once again, it's fine to kill Edwin for being obnoxious, but not for Korgan? Better watch out, Jan! Minsc is gunning for you next, if he doesn't kill you in one of his psychotic uncontrollable rages.
No, I'm not saying that evil partymates are sunshine and daisies, just that there's really not much difference between them and anyone else in your band of international murder hobos.
Also I totally win this thread, because your opinion was more popular than mine.
Edwin: There is no evidence that Edwin was sent to infiltrate Maevar's guild. It isn't like you are told to meet him as he is a plant. No, he pretty much says that he sees where the winds are blowing.
Keldorn: Look at what Sharans do. In BG1EE and BG2EE they are Evil with a capital E. Then a *drow*, who are known throughout the realms for being 99.9% evil, comes up. She outright says that she worships an evil goddess. He uses his paladin senses and sees that she too pings evil. Hanging out with her shows that she rejoices when evil things are done and complains when good things are done. Why wouldn't a paladin kill that? And when you say he is racist, I call you on that. He does meet a good drow when you infiltrate the drow city. The drow shows proof that he is good and seeks others who are good. Does Keldon kill him? Nope! He lets the drow go on his merry goody two shoes way. Keldorn only kills those who are proven to be evil. Because you know, he is a paladin.
Valygar: It is alright to kill anyone who is an open worshiper of Shar. It is alright to see a drow with complete and utter apprehension and a lack of trust. When a Shar worshiping drow goes out of its way to insult you...well...quite reasonable to rid the world of the evildoer.
Minsc: Edwin wasn't just being obnoxious. He outright tried to murder Minsc's friend and comrade. He then goads Minsc into a battle. Absolutely right for him to take him down.
I see a night and day difference between Keldorn and Edwin.
And yes you do win in this thread.
------------------------------
Now then, my unpopular opinion!
Korgan should be Chaotic Neutral. Or at least turn Chaotic Neutral when he is in a party with Mazzy. She unlocks dialogue that shows just how tortured a soul Korgan is, explains why he is so violent, and Korgan finally lets his soft side show. He even promises to try and channel his rage towards appropriate targets. In no way does he become a good guy, but she does bring out the best in him. Combined with his strange sense of morals (ie: his hatred of slavers who deal in children) and I see him fitting the CN profile better than CE.
I think that the alignments in D&D are just ways for gamers to not feel guilty about killing someone in game. It doesn't really work in real life. For example, I have heard in P&P games before, when the players are presented with a moral dilemma, "Well, he was evil. So there." Alignments, in addition to being a role-playing tool, are just rational to keep real life players' consciences clean. You can't be up all night worrying about that orc raider's wife and kids at home now, can you?
So...Keldorn killing Viconia, Minsc killing Edwin... makes perfect sense to me. I have zero guilt.
Really. No guilt at all.
I swear.
But if staying true to lore everyone should kill Viconia for being a priestess of Shar, yes even evil charnames unless you yourself also worship Shar.
Edvin is a red wizard, noone would ever trust a red wizard, not even red wizards!
Korgan is odd and doesn't really fit as CE, but from your initial conversations with him you would be crazy to have him at your back, or front, or anywhere around you really.
Dorn and Hexxat are CE as in crazy evil, that's not a good alignment.
For me, as a bhaalspawn, all the deities mentioned are taken with a large pinch of salt.
If you don't take the view that there can be ambiguities between good/evil then it would be best for everyone that Charname commited suicide after reading Gorion's letter.
Evil God's blood, exterminate, exterminate............
In fact as Charname, it's imperative for them to allow people the benefit of the doubt as the whole saga rests on that being done for you by Gorion and others.