This is how we roll.
BillyYank
Member Posts: 2,768
I was sitting around, pregenerating characters for future runs through BG and IWD (doesn't everyone?), when I realized I'd fallen out of love with min-maxing. So I fiddled around a bit and I came up with a method that produces the characters I want to play.
That's got me wondering about how others roll up their characters. Do you reroll until you get above a certain number? Do you accept the first one out of the gate? Do you set limits on min-maxing?
How do you roll up a character, and why do you do it that way?
Here's what I came up with:
Goal-
I want characters like I used to play in PnP. Exceptional people, but not over the top.
Method-
1. Choose gender, race and class. Note the racial attribute adjustments for the ones I don't already have memorized.
2. Roll until I get a total 80 or over. This is the baseline.
3. Store it and note the individual rolls.
4. I now have 10 rolls to get something better. When I do get something better, I store it and then I have another 10 rolls to beat it. Beating a previous roll doesn't always mean a higher total because...
5. No min-maxing of individual points. I can swap attribute rolls (taking racial adjustments into account), but I can't take points from one attribute and add them to another. If I don't roll an 18, I don't get an 18.
6. Continue the rest of creation as normal.
Results-
Of the 10 characters I've created with this method so far, 2 of them have an 18 and 2 of them top out at 16. Six of them have one or two 17's, though on a couple of them, I took lower overall totals, because I intend to dual-class.
Besides having to be careful about the dual-class, I also noticed that sometimes I can't make swaps on classes like Ranger that have multiple minimum scores. I wanted to swap a high wisdom for a low charisma on an Archer, and I couldn't because of the minimum Wis requirement.
So, am I crazy for putting this much thought into a bunch of numbers, or is this tame compared to what some others are doing?
That's got me wondering about how others roll up their characters. Do you reroll until you get above a certain number? Do you accept the first one out of the gate? Do you set limits on min-maxing?
How do you roll up a character, and why do you do it that way?
Here's what I came up with:
Goal-
I want characters like I used to play in PnP. Exceptional people, but not over the top.
Method-
1. Choose gender, race and class. Note the racial attribute adjustments for the ones I don't already have memorized.
2. Roll until I get a total 80 or over. This is the baseline.
3. Store it and note the individual rolls.
4. I now have 10 rolls to get something better. When I do get something better, I store it and then I have another 10 rolls to beat it. Beating a previous roll doesn't always mean a higher total because...
5. No min-maxing of individual points. I can swap attribute rolls (taking racial adjustments into account), but I can't take points from one attribute and add them to another. If I don't roll an 18, I don't get an 18.
6. Continue the rest of creation as normal.
Results-
Of the 10 characters I've created with this method so far, 2 of them have an 18 and 2 of them top out at 16. Six of them have one or two 17's, though on a couple of them, I took lower overall totals, because I intend to dual-class.
Besides having to be careful about the dual-class, I also noticed that sometimes I can't make swaps on classes like Ranger that have multiple minimum scores. I wanted to swap a high wisdom for a low charisma on an Archer, and I couldn't because of the minimum Wis requirement.
So, am I crazy for putting this much thought into a bunch of numbers, or is this tame compared to what some others are doing?
10
Comments
or take the best of 10 rolls for each member of my IWDEE or Black Pits party and then tweak it a bit,
or use the random method for a Bhaalspawn in a party run that I quite like, presented by @Lemernis here: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/17887/create-a-random-game-optional-no-reload-speed-game-contest-included-spoilers/p1
To me, great THAC0 and AC makes the game fun, especially in BG1 where you have 1 APR and if you miss you just stand there like a goon 'til the next round, and missing three times in a row just isn't so much fun. I do skip out on CON though, deliberately lowering it and never reload before level-up or use "max HP on level up", so that adds to the challenge instead. My latest char for the sage, an assassin/mage, has ~50 HP at the end of BG1, and with both Dorn and Shar'teel in the group, both with less than 60 HP each but with otherwise amazing stats, the battles are still somewhat risky.
I've stopped rolling for hours though and started using EEkeeper every now and then. This is for the BG saga though, for IWD I roll and play with less perfect chars since they are not Bhaal spawn, so having 90+ stat points for 6 chars would be harder to explain with backstories etc.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA Overall Details
BG 1 Fighters, including multiclass
Khalid
15 16 17 12 10 9 79
Coran
14 20 12 14 9 16 85 M/C Thief
Yeslick
15 12 17 7 16 10 77 M/C Cleric
Jaheira
15 14 17 10 14 15 85 M/C Druid
Montaron
16 17 15 12 13 9 82 M/C Thief
Kagain
16 12 20 15 11 8 82 Dwarf (CON)
Shar-Teel
18/58 17 9 14 7 11 76 Option to dual-class into a thief
BG 2 Fighters, including multiclass
Mazzy
15 18 16 10 13 14 86 Personal STR enhancing spell
Jaheira
15 17 17 10 14 15 88 M/C Druid
Korgan
18/77 15 19 12 9 7 80 Dwarf (CON)
Sarevok
18/00 17 18 17 10 15 95 A Bhaalspawn, Option to dual-class into a thief or a mage, Deathbringer Assault
Wilson
19 9 18 4 4 4 58 A bear
BG1 Rangers
Kivan
18/12 17 14 10 14 8 81
Minsc
18/93 15 15 8 6 9 71
BG2 Rangers
Minsc
18/93 16 16 8 6 9 73
Valygar
17 18 16 10 14 10 85
BG1 Paladins
Ajantis
17 13 16 12 13 17 88
Dorn
19 16 14 10 15 16 90 Half-orc (STR)
BG2 Paladins
Keldorn
17 9 17 12 16 18 89
Dorn
19 16 14 10 15 16 90 Half-orc (STR)
BG1 Thieves
Imoen
9 18 16 17 11 16 87 Option to dual-class into a mage
Coran
14 20 12 14 9 16 85 M/C Fighter
Alora
8 19 12 14 7 10 70 Lucky foot
Safana
13 17 12 16 9 17 84 Option to dual-class into a mage
Skie
11 18 15 15 8 13 80
Tiax
9 16 16 10 13 9 73 M/C Cleric
BG2 Thieves
Imoen
9 18 16 17 11 16 87 Doesn't progress as a thief because now a mage
Nalia
14 18 16 17 9 13 87
Yoshimo
17 18 16 13 10 14 88 Option to dual-class into a fighter
Jan
9 17 15 16 14 10 81 M/C Illusionist, lots of personal items
Hexxat
20 20 14 14 12 18 98 Vampire (STR, DEX), sunlight penalties
BG1Bards
Garrick
14 16 9 13 14 15 81
Eldoth
16 12 15 13 10 16 82
BG2Bards
Haer'Dalis
17 17 9 15 13 16 87 Two pips in short and long swords
BG1 Clerics
Yeslick
15 12 17 7 16 10 77 M/C Fighter
Branwen
13 16 15 9 16 13 82 Option to dual-class into a thief
Quayle
8 16 11 17 10 6 68 M/C Illusionist
Viconia
10 19 8 16 15 14 82 Drow (MR)
Tiax
9 16 16 10 13 9 73 M/C Thief
BG2 Clerics
Aerie
10 17 9 16 16 14 82 M/C Mage
Anomen
18/52 10 16 10 12 13 79 Dual-classed from Fighter
Viconia
10 19 8 16 18 14 85 Drow (MR)
BG1 Druids
Jaheira
15 14 17 10 14 15 85 M/C Fighter
Faldorn
12 15 11 10 16 15 79
BG2 Druids
Jaheira
15 17 17 10 14 15 88 M/C Fighter
Cernd
13 9 13 12 18 15 80 Shapeshifter (for melee uses stats of a beast)
BG1 Monks
Rasaad
16 16 14 11 14 14 85 Personal STR-enhancing Item
BG1 Monks
Rasaad
16 16 14 11 14 14 85
BG1 Mages
Dynaheir
11 13 16 17 15 12 84 Option to dual-class into a cleric
Xan
13 16 7 17 14 16 83
Quayle
8 16 11 17 10 6 68 M/C cleric
Xzar
14 16 10 17 16 10 83 Option to dual-class into a cleric
Edwin
9 10 16 18 9 10 72 Additional spells
Neera
11 17 14 17 10 11 80
BG2 MAGES
Imoen
9 18 16 17 11 16 87 Dual-classed from Thief
Aerie
10 17 9 16 16 14 82 M/C Cleric
Nalia
14 18 16 17 9 13 87 Dual-classed from Thief
Jan
9 17 15 16 14 10 81 M/C Thief, lots of personal items
Edwin
10 10 16 18 10 10 74 Additional spells
Neera
11 17 14 17 10 11 80
Sorcerers
Baeloth
12 14 16 19 12 16 89 Drow (MR), Additional spells
Fighters
In BG1
As you see, nearly always when a fighter character is a multiclass combination, his stats (especially the main stats for a figther) are generally lower than when a fighter doesn’t have a second active class.
Also, as the further analysis shows, if a character has a dual-class option, 2 of his main (for the main class) can be quite good (Shar-Teel’s STR and DEX).
When a fighter is only a fighter, 2 of 3 main stats are rather high. If it’s a race thing, a fighter can even have one exeptional stat (Kagain’s CON).
In BG2
NPCs in BG2 has generally better stats than their BG1 counterparts (possibly related to more difficult fights and stat-tome “simulations”).
For fighters, I see the same trend - when a fighter character is a multiclass combination, his stats (especially the main stats for a figther) are generally lower than when a fighter doesn’t have a second active class (compare Mazzy, taking into account her personal STR enhancing ability, or Korgan, with Jaheira).
Wilson can be written off for this analysis due to being an easter-egg NPC and a bear, while Sarevok represents a Bhaalspawn (available late in the game, in ToB, his high stats and the Deathbtinger assault “simulate” the Bhaalspawn unique traits and all permanent improvements of CHARNAME).
Also, in Sarevok I see the trend of having high stats for a character who has an option to dual-class.
Rangers
In BG1
Both rangers have exceptional STR and not low sum of other 2 main fighting stats. Because a ranger can’t be dual/ or multi-classed, he’s compensated by getting good 3 main stats for fighting.
In BG2
The tendency continues, fighting stats of rangers are amazing.
Paladins
In BG1
Due to getting high CHA, both paladins suffer in 1 of 3 main fighting stats. Dorn, being a half-orc (just like Kagain), gets a “racial stat”, this time STR.
In BG2
The same tendency takes place here - suffering in 1 of 3 main fighting stats. Keldorn’s low DEX and not exceptional STR can be compensated by Carsomyr and personal items.
Thieves
In BG1
All thieves (exactly all of them) has wonderful DEX. Only Tiax, being a multiclass cleric and having a ghast summoning has lower DEX but in the same time his CON is wonderful.
The game shows that for a thief each other stat other than DEX doesn’t matter much.
In BG2
The tendency of having high DEX for thieves continues. Jan, as a multiclass character, gets lower STR and CON but he’s a mage and has lots of wonderful personal items. Hexxat is a vampire and gets penalties while being under the sun.
Yoshimo continues the BG1 trend where characters available for dual-classing get good stats.
Bards
In BG1
Characters who can use wands, scrolls and in the same time can more or less fight, get rather low fighting stats, and their INT is far from the best.
In BG2
Haer’Dalis continues the trend of getting better stats if compared to BG1 NPCs while still getting not exceptional fighting stats and not ideal INT. Magic spells compensate greatly for that, as do special second pips in swords.
Clerics
In BG1
When a character has a single class, she has much better stats (a combination of fighter stats+WIS) than when a character is a multiclass combination (compare Viconia and Branwen to Quayle and Tiax). Branwen, as a person who can dual-class, has better stats (the tendency from BG1 fighters).
In BG2
The same conclusions are fair for BG2 clerics. A single classed Viconia has the best stats here while Aerie, being a multiclass cleric/mage has the lowest fighting stats. Anomen, dual-classed from a fighter, has high 2 of 3 main fighting skills.
Druids
In BG1
Faldorn, being a single class druid, has higher WIS than Jaheira, although in everything else Jaheira is better.
In BG2
The same tendency is here as well – Cernd as a single class druid has good WIS, while Jaheira has better fighting stats.
Monks
In BG1 and BG2
We have only one monk NPC and he has far from the best stats. I think having all Monk immunities compensates for Rasaad’s low STR, DEX and CON compared to fighters and rangers.
Mages
In BG1
We see that almost any mage has high INT, with single class wizards showing the best results here. Multiclass Quayle has lower stats.
In BG2
The same picture is in BG2 as well. Multiclass Aerie and Jan has lower stats overall (INT included).
Sorcerers
We have only one sorcerer NPC, and only in BG1. Baeloth is an easter egg so cannot show much here.
The conclusion..
It’s up to you if you decide to base charname stats in any matter on NPCs’ stats when creating a new CHARNAME with the thoughts of not being OP or meta-gamey. But one thing is for certain – no NPC except for Sarevok has ideal stats overall. They all have their weaknesses. I see how the game favours better key stats for single class characters (not all but key – based on their roles, for example, Kagain’s CON or Edwin’s INT).
According to BG NPCs, DEX should be nearly as high as possible for thieves, at the price of getting worse STR or CON, or even both of them.
2 of 3 main fighting stats can be rather high in terms of fighters, rangers and paladins, while for magic users (multiclass druids, clerics, bards and, of course, mages) fighting stats are much weaker. But instead, the game focuses on magic users’ other stats, such as INT for mages and WIS for clerics. Bards get middle results here.
Personally, I think that all this comparison can serve good when deciding on stats for CHARNAME. Take into account that only CHARNAME can get permanent bonuses imported from BG1 to BG2, plus she gets unique abilities as the game goes further.
Example:
Based on my analysis, I can perfectly see a 17-17-18 fighter, a 19-17-15 half-orc fighter, a 18/91-17-16 ranger or a paladin, a 18/80-17-10 fighter/thief, a 18/80-17-10 human and 10-19-14 halfling or elven thief, a 15-16-16 bard with 15 in INT, a 16-14-16 cleric with 17 WIS, a 15-16-16 figher/cleric or a fighter/druid, a 14-15-14 mage/cleric and so on. All those characters will get items to improve their stats. And they will be in line with other NPCs. Even with Sarevok, because by the time ToB starts, any of your character will be able to get next to 19-18-18 fighting stats, with potions granting 18 in INT and WIS.
You really don't need great stats in this game and I wish they'd not used dice rolls, as people are often tempted to roll until they get boring characters with at least three 18's
Minimum 4 18s usually! Gotta have that charisma too.
I think your comment should be taken into consideration for anyone who want to create a balanced charname.
Most of the characters I've made are really overpowered, I just re-rolled until I got what I wanted.
But I realized that as I learn and play more the game I prefer my character to have lower stats. This is because I want the game to be harder and charname seems more authentic. Moreover - this is really important to me - I realized that when my stats are low I tend/have to use more items in the game, especially potions. This is fantastic as I have to think new strategies sometimes!
To sum up, the margin for me is a roll of 84. 85+ charnames get to be overpowered.
Mirage I get what you're saying. Non -consumable items also become more relevant. For example I'm currently playing s stalker with 15 natural strength... A girdle of giant strength is really going to be a big item in some ways. also I can't use composite bows so need to pick the better longbows or even short bows.
In summary I prefer to role play so I always pick the class and stats I most identify with. Stopping rolling at 80 ish for the first time was difficult but I've never looked back.
It isn't about Frodo you know
1. Roll a maximum of 50 times and take the highest roll
2. Roll until I get a 90+ score and then roll 23 times (why? you might ask....why not!) to see if I get a higher roll.
Then I decide whether I want to adjust those scores by min-maxing, swapping scores or keeping the original roll.
Now I do ten rerolls, and take the highest total, even if the individual scores aren't as good. Then I allow myself one swap, full score only, between two attributes.
I also use the NPCs' stats for a comparison, i.e.: if I imagine my character as being stronger than Ajantis but not quite as hulking as Minsc, I'll look to roll a strength score in the 18/50s.
I find @cloakanddagger 's spreadsheet of NPC stats to be very useful for determining my own character's stats:
I can never shadowkeep or edit stats. I will put them where I want, but they have to be rolled.
Lately I've been rolling some crazy 18/100 stats. 98 for a Blackguard (In a little over 5 minutes of rolling) and 98 for a Cavalier in about 25 minutes of rolling and I just now rolled 94(18/100) for a Chaotic Neutral Elf Fighter/Mage, to make him interesting, I'm going to "Glass Cannon" him, 9 con with an 18 Charisma, probably use Two Handed Sword (I have a hard time not dual wielding long swords.) Big Elf hits hard but is pale and sickly...
Intelligence for non-casters get two break points, generally: either 8 to just be able to use green scrolls, or 10/11 to avoid dying in two hits from Mind Flayers without having to burn any Potions of Genius. Casters obviously get INT maxed so important spells don't take two of more potions to learn.
WIS and CHA are really only used for the classes. Clerics and Druids will get their high WIS, and my Bards and obviously Paladins get high CHA, but these are the only two stats I will completely dump if I have to. The Ring of Human Influence can be obtained soon enough in each game that it honestly doesn't make any real difference what your natural CHA is.
Strength I left out because my rolls for that have been slowly changing, from requiring maximum for any melee type to slowly lowering it. STR potions and belts and spells are proving to be enough for both games. 15 or greater for warriors, I'll dump it as low as an 8 for other stat-heavy builds (like Druids.)
I present to these forums , for the first time ever, "Styx the gifted", as OP as a Bard could ever wish to be *(snort,chortle, chuckle)
*The writer of this post is a non-believer in the power of bards. Maybe with these stats and actually playing one will change his mind. I'll let you know how it goes.
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/681863/#Comment_681863