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[MOD] -Might and Guile- a tweak mod and kit pack for warriors and rogues.

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  • wyakpawyakpa Member Posts: 62
    That sounds reasonable... is there a way to take specific spells and allow them? For example, most of evocation doesn't feel very bardy, but there's that sound blast spell which would fit right in. Of course, for a one-off like that you could very easily make it a bardic feat thing, or even incorporate it somehow into a bardsong. Food for thought.

    As for conjuration... seems like there's a specific kind of bard that is geared towards attracting animals - the meistersinger or something, yes? I could see that fitting more as a specific kit, rather than granting unrestricted access to the whole school, which overall feels very wizardly.

    After this whole discussion, it seems like the epithet of "bard" fits a really wide range of character styles, because, yaknow... bards are jacks of all trades. I really like your idea that other multiclass bard kits could be made for fighter-mages. I wonder if you could do something like the following:

    1) Make the bardsongs, and have them available as feats to all the different bards. They could easily account for some of the kits, like the Jester. You could also dictate that not all bardsongs are available for every type of bard.

    2) Make the multiclass mage-XXXX bard kits to focus on magic.

    3) Allow thieves to take bardsongs as feats? That way you could have "lite" bards, for those that want them.

    4) (Maybe) Keep trueclass bards for the weird kits, like the Meistersinger and Loremaster... maybe adapt some of them to have really powerful bardic songs that uses the old "You can sing and do nothing else" mechanic but actually have the power to justify removing the character from play.

    I'm 90% sure I can think of 2 interesting bardsongs to represent each arcane school. If you're interested let me know and I'll post them or send you a message so as not to clutter the comment section.
  • GawainBSGawainBS Member Posts: 523
    The Multiclass & Bardsong approach really sound delicious. It would make Bards useful accross the board, without being terribly powerful on their own.
  • wyakpawyakpa Member Posts: 62
    Oh, and as far as strongholds go, the BG2 Tweaks Mod has a component that removes restrictions from strongholds... maybe you could use that as a jumping off point to adapt that portion of things?
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    edited November 2016
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  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636

    - war chant of the sith

    Heh, I hope no one takes this title seriously...

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  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited November 2016

    That's the actual IWD song name!

    Hahaha, I know. And it's a total reference. But it really shouldn't be named that. "Sith" isn't a thing in D&D.
  • wyakpawyakpa Member Posts: 62
    Okay, your "Ditties" vs "Ballads" (which is a hilarious distinction, by the way) has me thinking about what could be done about this. Here's my thought: Rather than making DIFFERENT songs for each set, you should make singular songs that have a "Ditty" and a "Ballad" version. Most classes would only ever get access to the Ditty, but if a trueclass bard activiates the bardsong thing on their toolbar while a Ditty is active, they get a full Ballad that has better more awesomer effects. Like what, you might ask? Well as a silver lining to my commute being 20 minutes longer due to an accident, I have a full set of ideas.

    This might be a personal thing... I think that an ability is much more impactful if it scales with level, so I think that even the ditties should get better over time, even if it happens VERY slowly, which is appropriate for a passive ability like theirs.

    A note before I lay it out: right now I'm just tyrina come up with cool ideas that seem interesting, fun, and useful, so some of these may very well be horrifically overpowered or impossible to implement. Here goes!

    Each school has 3 songs that I thought of - one that is available at level one, one that is available in the mid-levels (maybe sometime between levels 8 and 12?) and another that is available much later, like level 16 or 18 or something.... I forget what the bard level tree is like so whatever seems balanced for the spells these abilities emulate.

    Why yes I have examples! I have a full list, actually, but it would take an entire page and ain't nobody got time for that. I'll list my favorites from each school along with a brief overview.

    Abjuration
    Protects against spells, elements, and also has a song that lowers enemy MR
    Low: Shelter Song - grants small % resistance to elements; ditty only affects caster, ballad affects everyone in radius.

    Alteration
    Improves speed, grants stoneskin, potentially slows enemies that are alive, or maybe grants small (physical) save bonuses? That one was giving me trouble.
    Low or Mid: Song of Celerity - Speeds allies in radius up; ditty only grants speed, ballad grants one round of haste every 3-5 rounds or something.

    Conjuration
    Summon animals, fog, or demons
    Low: Meistersinger Song - Summon animals; Ditty summons rats at the rate of 1 per round, maximum of your level, that act as disposable cannon fodder and to ensue hilarity. Ballad summons actual animals that are useful in fights.

    Divination
    Sense traps (but not as often as the actual spell), grant attack bonus, grant AC bonus (like the Blade song!)
    Mid: Song of the True Strike - every 3-5 rounds, grants a decent attack bonus. Ditty only affects caster, Ballad affects party in radius

    Enchantment
    This one is special since it would hold the "vanilla/skald" bardsong that applies a flat Thac0/damage bonus, the jester confusion song, and the malison effect

    Evocation
    Distract casters (applies miscast chance), fires missiles, deafens and (with ballad) damages foes
    Low/Mid: Song of a Thousand Arrows - ditty fires a single missile every few rounds at nearest foe, ballad fires a bunch more missiles, or does it every round

    Illusion
    Generate mirror images, blur self and allies, possibly blind foes? Another that was giving me a little trouble.
    Low: Dance of Illusion - Generate a mirror image every 1-2 rounds, ditty is for caster only and ballad is for party in radius

    Necromancy
    Slow/hold undead, drain strength from foes, summon skeletons
    High: Marching Song of the Undead - Summon a skeleton to fight for you every 3-?? rounds, maximum is not very high. Ditty only summons skeletons; ballad always summons a skeleton warrior if there isn't one already.

    Man I need to stop coming up with lengthy ideas.

    Thoughts?
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  • wyakpawyakpa Member Posts: 62
    edited November 2016
    I like those ideas! For the sake of variety and throwing things at the wall, here are some alternates:

    Telekinesis: Squeeze - target is held and takes damage every round as you telekinetically squeeze them to death

    Pyrokinesis: Blood Boil - target takes massive fire damage as their blood boils. If they die, they also produce a fireball? Not sure if that's viable, implementation wise but it would be cool.

    Telepathy: Bastion of Iron Will - entire party gains a large save vs. spells bonus, or maybe grants immunity to psionics (the latter would be VERY helpful against those late-game Mind Flayers)

    Biokinesis: Fission - you produce a weaker duplicate of yourself, like a Simulacrum. Maybe the clone is stronger than a simulacrum but you are also weakened.

    Ultimate: Psychic Chirurgeon - Like a heal/cleanse, could do one/a few/all of the following:
      Remove mental effects (ie confusion, domination, this one could also be purely telepathy)
      Remove certain physical effects (bleeding, maybe? not as sure about this one)
      Heal a moderate amount
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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2016
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  • inethineth Member Posts: 708

    Oh, some of these spells will be permanent-until-canceled auras, like the 'ditties' I described above. But others will simply be regular spells with a duration.

    This could easily confuse players if you're not careful to distinguish between permanent-until-canceled songs and limited-duration songs in the UI.

    Maybe use a special naming scheme for the song names that show up in the tooltips over the bard-song buttons, like a "Chant: " prefix for the permanent-until-canceled ones (e.g. "Chant: Tymora's Melody"), and a different prefix for the limited-duration ones.

    Even better would be to somehow make the icons for each type visually distinct.

    Or put only the permanent-until-canceled ones in the bard song toolbar, and the rest in the innates toolbar.

    Every time you use this magic, the bard song button will be disabled. To cast a different song spell, you have to 'queue up' a new song from your repertoire. And like I said, either from feats or in-game quest rewards, you will be able to expand your repertoire.

    Queueing up a new song will 1) cancel any song spell currently in effect; and 2) re-enable the bard song button. Clicking it will now cast the song spell you just queued up.

    I don't follow.
    Why make players go through two actions instead of one, to switch songs?

    Why not just add the whole repertoire of known songs to the bard song toolbar, and make it so that clicking one of them cancels the one currently in effect and switches to the new one?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited December 2016
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  • inethineth Member Posts: 708

    Because AFAIK there is no "bard song toolbar."

    What about the one the pure-class Bard uses in IWD?
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  • inethineth Member Posts: 708
    You're right, having a step (or even delay) for "tuning your instrument" seems fair.

    As for IWD, I somehow remembered it as letting you right-click on the song button to open a song bar. Maybe that was in the non-EE version of the game?
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  • agb1agb1 Member Posts: 249
    edited December 2016
    Old mod for reference: http://www.shsforums.net/topic/39299-bard-song-switching-icewind-mode-for-bg2/
    Bard will learn different songs on different level. You can switch to the song you need by clicking new buttons in Special Abilities.
    LV1: The Ballad of Three Heroes, which has the effect of +1 to hit, +1 to damage and +1 to all saving throws.
    LV1: The Tale of Curran Strongheart, which gives the immunity to Fear and Morale Break.
    LV5: The Song of Kaudies, which gives the immunity to all sound effects like silence, deafness and all Power Words.
    LV10: Tymora's Melody, which has the effect of +1 luck, +3 to all saving throws, +10 to lore and thief's skills.
    LV15: The Siren's Yearning, which enthrals enemies in 30 feet unless they make save vs. spell. Does NOT affect mindless enemies e.g. golems and skeletons.
    LV20: The WarChant of Sith, which has the effect of AC-2, +10% physical damage resistance, and regenerate 3 HP per round.
    Enhanced Bard Song: Gives all allies +4 to hit, +4 to damage, -4 to AC, +5% magic resistance, and grants them immunity to Fear, Morale Break, Confusion and normal weapons. While singing the Enhanced Bard Song, the Bard himself gains an extra bonus of -6 to AC and +5% magic resistance.
    lingering Song (Enhanced Song pre-requested): Effects of all Bard songs last for 2 extra rounds.

    Blade starts with +1 to hit and damage, get maximum proficiency (3 points) in two weapon fighting style, and then +1 to hit and damage per 10 levels. He can also learn different songs on different level, but less than normal Bard.
    LV1: The Ballad of Three Heroes, which has the effect of +1 THAC0, +1 damage and +1 to all saving throws.
    LV5: The Tale of Curran Strongheart, which gives the immunity to Fear and Morale Break.
    LV10: The Song of Kaudies, which gives the immunity to all sound effects like silence, stun and deafness.
    LV15: Tymora's Melody, which has the effect of +1 luck, +3 to all saving throws, +10 to lore and thief's skills.
    Enhanced Blade Song: Gives all allies +4 to hit, +4 to damage, -4 to AC, +5% magic resistance, and grants them immunity to Fear, Morale Break and normal weapons. While singing the Enhanced Blade Song, the Blade himself gains an extra bonus of -1 to AC, +1 to hit and damage.
    lingering Song (Enhanced Song pre-requested): Effects of all Blade songs last for 2 extra rounds.

    Jester starts with +1 luck, +5% stealing, immunity to charm and confusion. Effect of his battle song improves with level, but he can't perform other songs, and the Enhanced Jester Song will merely replace the original song. Mindless enemies e.g. golems and skeletons are immune to Jester song.
    LV1: Opponents in 30 feet must save vs. spells once per round or be confused (+4 save penalty).
    LV5: Opponents in 30 feet must save vs. spells once per round or be charmed (+2 save penalty).
    LV10: Opponents in 30 feet must save vs. spells once per round or be slowed (no penalty) or confused (+2 save penalty).
    LV15: Opponents in 30 feet must save vs. spells once per round or be slowed (-2 save penalty) or confused (no penalty).
    LV20: Opponents in 30 feet must save vs. spells once per round or be slowed (-2 save penalty) confused (-2 save penalty), and must save vs. poly or be unconscious (+2 save penalty).
    Enhanced Jester song: Affects every opponent within 30 feet, they must save vs. spells once per round or be slowed (-4 save penalty) confused (-2 save penalty), and must save vs. poly or be unconscious (no penalty). They may also fail in casting spells and innates by 10% chance.
    lingering Song (Enhanced Song pre-requested): Effects of Jester song last for 2 extra rounds.
    Note: Visible histrionics are necessary for Jesters to confuse opponents so all invisibility effects will be removed while singing.

    Skald starts with +1 to hit and damage. Effect of his battle song improves with level, but he can't perform other songs. And the Enhanced Skald Song will merely replace the original song.
    LV1: +2 to hit, +2 to damage, -2 to AC.
    LV5: +2 to hit, +2 to damage, -2 to AC, offers the immunity to Fear and Morale Break.
    LV10: +3 to hit, +3 to damage, -3 to AC, offers the immunity to Fear and Morale Break.
    LV15: +4 to hit, +4 to damage, -4 to AC, offers the immunity to Fear and Morale Break.
    LV20: +4 to hit, +4 to damage, -4 to AC, offers the immunity to Fear, Morale Break, Stun and Confusion.
    Enhanced Skald song: Gives all allies +4 to hit, +4 to damage, -4 to AC, +2 to all saving throws, +5% magic resistance, and grants them immunity to Fear, Stun, Confusion and normal weapons. While singing the Enhanced Skald Song, the Skald himself gains an extra bonus of -6 to AC and +5% magic resistance.
    lingering Song (Enhanced Song pre-requested): Effects of Skald song last for 2 extra rounds.


    Also look at http://www.gibberlings3.net/iwdification/ component 50 (IWD Bard Song):
    Bards in Icewind Dale gained different bard songs as they leveled:
    The Ballad of Three Heroes - Available at level one, this provides all allies with +1 to hit, +1 damage, and +1 to saving throws.
    The Tale of Curran Strongheart - Available at level three, this song protects the party from fear and removes any current fear effects.
    Tymora's Melody - Available at level five, the party gains +1 luck, +3 to all saves, and +10 to lore and thieving skills.
    The Song of Kaudies - Available at level seven, this provides a 50% resistance to sound-based attacks and spells such as power words, sirine charm, silence, and others.
    The Siren's Yearning - Available at level nine, this song enthralls your foes, preventing action for five rounds on a failed save vs. spell.
    War Chant of the Sith - Available at level 11, this provides +2 AC, regeneration of two HP/round, and 10% resistance to all crushing, missile, piercing, and slashing damage.

    As the songs become available to the bard, the ability to freely switch between them is available. This component only affects trueclass bards, as the available kits use variants of BG2 bard song for kit advantages and/or disadvantages.
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  • agb1agb1 Member Posts: 249
    I like the idea of having the selection of earlier abilities from a discipline be a prerequisite to gain HLAs of that same discipline. You could technically achieve this by having the HLA table populated by a "dummy' ability that actually brings up a selection dialogue the first time you cast it, and which then only offers you a choice of HLAs to learn, filtered by what abilities you already know.
  • agb1agb1 Member Posts: 249
    Is it possible for the HLA table to grant innate abilities that don't require a rest to become available? Doing it that way would be better... Having to write the dummy into your spellbook, rest, then choose.. not fun.
  • agb1agb1 Member Posts: 249
    Definitely no shadow kits, urgh. I think the discipline should be determined by what you learn, not by an early choice. How would you know at level 2 that you want to be a telekinetic specialist? No, you learn the first telekinetic ability (or not), at the appropriate level, decide you like it, choose to learn the next.. etc.. and finally you get access to HLAs that are natural progressions of what you've chosen for that playthrough.
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  • agb1agb1 Member Posts: 249
    How about weakening the effects of other abilities from that discipline for the next 48 hours, and also preventing the use of that HLA itself for the next 48 hours, so they are once-per-2-days abilities?

    In other words, attempting to use any other abilities from that discipline during the following 48 hours would cause them to be less effective. Not sure how you would implement the mechanics of this. But it's not enough to apply a penalty only until next rest, because players could get around it by just using up the other abilities before using the HLA.

    If you can weaken other abilities afterwards, it becomes a situational trade-off: is it worth it to me to use this powerful thing now, and sacrifice the use of other abilities at full power later?

    If that's too complicated, maybe just take the HLA away for an extra day after use.

    Or you could make the HLA only work if they have NOT used the other abilities, so the trade-off is between using several lesser abilities or one greater ability, per day.

    In any case, I wouldn't include a hitpoint penalty. Fatigue is OK.
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  • agb1agb1 Member Posts: 249
    Thanks for the explanation. In that case .. considering that by level 20 when you start to gain HLAs, you have 20 hit dice, a cost of 20 isn't much. The 1x/day limitation becomes the main strategic consideration. The cost is just for consistency with the other abilities. If you want to make the HP cost more of a factor, make it 100. 100 rounds .. an hour to recover. And potentially 90% of your health, if 20d6... With a very high cost and long recovery time, you could even skip the 1x/day restriction, I think.
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  • agb1agb1 Member Posts: 249
    Oops. 25-30 sounds reasonable then. What about the 1x/day limit in that case?
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  • agb1agb1 Member Posts: 249
    edited December 2016
    I don't like the idea of animating an effectively independent creature with telekinesis; something like that would require full concentration to achieve with telekinesis, which should at minimum paralyze the caster or be cancelled as soon as the caster takes any action other than controlling the construct.

    Consequently it might be simplest to implement something like this as a shape change instead of a summon. Or project image + shape change.
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