Oldschool BG fan's take on EE content
spiderland
Member Posts: 8
Hi everyone, long time lurker here.
First of all, it's super awesome that Beamdog took BGs and revamped them into more modern and smooth form. I've finished SOA/TOB dozens of times, but never really got through BG1. I was 11 when it originally came out, and being a kid used to Diablo, it was just too damn hard. No internet, no metagaming, convoluted rules, steep difficulty curve for a low level party, etc - this ended up in throwing the game on the shelf and not getting back to it. BG2 and TOB came, and being a little older, I've enjoyed them like no other RPGs before. After going through them many times, I wanted to go back and finally finish the first one, but the general clunkiness of the engine and the low res made it hard to enjoy. Note that I'm talking about vanilla game, not being aware of any mods at that time. BGEE was the reason I finally went back to Candlekeep and enjoyed every minute of the game. Big thumbs up for Beamdog, for tweaking 90s game into something so playable, even by today standards.
Now the harsh part.
The main problem is that EEs pretends to be something more than cosmetic tweaks. The OMG NEW QUESTS/ITEMS/NPCS is in your face. You can't even start/load a game without going through screen with new characters. It's like developers are saying 'see how much we have created? it's not some free mod from the internet that you have to install through WEIDU, we've officially added whole new content with Bioware's approval, that's right there after you install the game!!11'. Now, there are lots of mods with new content out there, but they are below average. Most of them are on the level of bad fanfiction. They just so painfully stand out from the original game that you can't really enjoy them. So the new content, made by professionals, would be more than welcomed, right?
Here goes the disappointment:
1. New kits.
Some of the kits had their fair place in BG2, but in BG1 they're just plain overpowered, like berserker or archer. So what did Beamdog do? Added more overpowered kits. Seriously, poison weapon or defensive stance are so full of cheese it's not even funny. They would pass in BG2, with all the dragons, demons, backstabbing assassins and high level mages, but in BG they're just game breaking. Just put your dwarf in the first line and watch how the idiot AI is trying to hit him, instead of your archers or mages. Speaking of AI.
2. AI
Absolutely no changes, from what I've noticed. You can still kite enemies, and they will run around you character in circle like retards, while the rest of your party is showering them with arrows/spells. For veteran BG players this is really painful and takes away most of the fun out of the game. Without any new challenge each new playthrough feels like doing a grocery list. I guess that's why people are doing solo or no reload runs. Playing with full party, even on higher than core settings, is a walk in the park for folks who finished trilogy few times. There's absolutely no excuse why the AI wasn't improved. SCS was released completely for free, so a whole team of 'professional developers' couldn't improve this, even just a tiny bit? AI isn't hard coded, since we got SCS, so the only other excuse I can hear now is that 'they haven't got time'. Seriously dude? I thought you're releasing game (or enhancement, whatever) when it's 100% ready. They borrowed money from russian mob and had last month to pay it back or what? Without even slightest change in AI it's like they made it clear, that EE was marketed for young, modern-RPG players who can be fished with few flashy new NPCs.
3. NPCs
New NPCs were probably the most advertised aspect of EEs, and ironically they are their biggest failure. Now, I know that lot of folks here are content with the new characters and I'm probably gathering some serious hate right now, but let's take a look at them with sober eye.
Main problem is that all of them are 100% stock RPG characters and flat cardboard cutouts. We have bad, evil dark paladin, who with each banter has to remind you how badass he is. Beside that there's nothing more to him, just evil half orc grunt. Artwork looks cartoonish and it's like straight from WoW. You can't help but think, that developers had younger gamers in mind while creating him. You know, the ones that play mmorpgs and like to put their game badass character's pictures on facebook or as forum avatars. Evil paladin with colorful full plate, fancy video game sword, horned helmet and glowing eyes. So bad. Also, the voicing is terrible, he sound like some cheesy villain from 80s action flicks. And he sounds too much human, like couldn't they add some half orc barking just for flavour?
Next we have american quirky teenage mage Neera. Her manga-like artwork gives you a big clue what on to expect. You know guys, I'm kinda like sooooo powerful, but then, it's like, I totally can't control my powers! It's like, a total bummer, yeah? Her voicing and whole character concept is terrible and just mood breaking. Now, I know that there's a lot of subtle (and not so subtle) humour spread along the trilogy, and that's fine. I don't have a stick right up my ass and I enjoyed all of it - comical relief just added flavour (similar to Fallout 1&2). But she's just too much, it's like Beamdog said 'f*ck this, we're putting Juno in'. Similar to Dorn - can't help but think that she was made for younger gamers, not for veterans who'd rather have someone with more depth. Beside, the whole motif 'protagonist with magical gift being hunted for it' was rehashed in movies and novels so many times, that it became a cliche. Couldn't they came up with someone more original?
Rasaad - generic zen-like monk. Not much to say about him beside that he's boring and annoying as hell when he tries to share his 'wisdom' with you. Now, I know that it's a class that narrows the field for creating some original personality, but couldn't they add some interesting spin to him? Instead of making him the cliche calm and lawful monk you know from movies and other games, they could, for example, twist him into chaotic evil direction. You know, search for enlightenment went wrong, he turned crazy, killed his master etc. Instead, we have a cardboard cutout of video game badass monk. Except he's not badass - in BG1 he's close to useless. So in order to see some new quests, you have to deliberately cripple your party by taking him in.
And there's Hexxat, lesbian vampire dominatrix. Cheesiness of the highest degree. Her voicing in the Copper Coronet is the most cringe inducing thing I have heard (beside the stoner elf). I know that they've tried to make her a possessed, absent minded person with a mechanical voice, an empty shell etc. It ended in a fail of epic proportions. Seriously, you just want to kill her on the spot when she open's her mouth.
Baeloth - I know he's supposed to be an easter egg and stuff, but why the hell would you add some half-finished, cheesy NPC, instead of taking your time to refine the ones already created? Similar to Dorn, he's way too overpowered and his whole personality and portrait makes you think that he was intended for WoW teenagers (sarcastic and funny dark elf sorceror, it's liek totally awesome!')
It's unforgivable for people who are supposedly into oldschool RPGs to create such subpar NPCs. The writing is on teenage fanfiction level, which doesn't go very well with other Bioware characters and stands out painfully. Vanilla NPCs were the most awesome and colourful characters you had in computer RPG. Even the most straightforward ones, like Korgan, were extremely fun and likable, mainly because of banters and voice acting.
General cheesiness of their personalities aside - the main factor that makes me not wanting to take them again is their classes. Let's see what we have here.
Blackguard - overpowered, takes the fun and challenge out of the game. Like said above, in BG2 it's tolerable. In BG1 his abilities are almost game breaking. Part of the challenge was always the fact that you didn't have any really good fighters, beside Kagain and Shar-Teel. But that was ok and made the game more fun. Both BG1 and BG2 would be super easy, if you could create your powerhouse party from the scratch and have your 18/18/18/x/x/x dual wielding tanks. Making your way with flawed warriors was just fun. So why the hell add some powergamer wet dream? For new gamers who got EE from steam as a christmas present?
Monk - low level monks are useless. It's either throwing bullets from the back row and using special abilities, or micromanaging each fight so he can hit enemies which are enaged with fight with your tanks and won't hit him back. Why they've added him to BG1 is beyond my comprehension.
Wild mage and sorcerer - why adding classes that were already abundant in vanilla BG1? Alright, you didn't have wild mage nor sorcerer. But you had four pure spellcasters and one multi, both for good and evil parties, and wildie/sorc doesn't differ that much from mages. Were another arcane spellcasters really necessary?
Thief - same as above. In BG1 you have thieves literally everywhere, why another one? In BG2 it's more understandable, since the game suffers greatly from lack of good rogues, but couldn't they at least give her some fun kit, like swashbuckler or assassin? Instead, you got boring vanilla thief, which you have to micromanage constantly with that annoying cloak.
Couldn't Beamdog add NPC who have classes that weren't actually in vanilla game (and aren't as useless as low level monk)? Why not adding blade, or stalker, or fighter/mage, or ranger/cleric?
4. New quests
Sadly, the only new quests are related to the new NPCs. Was there any logical reason behind that? It's like the developers are saying 'you want those new quests? well, you can have them, but first you have to take those awesome new NPCs that we've created!'. You paid for the game, but you don't like the new characters. You think that at least you have some new quests? No.
Seriously, was it that hard to add even some minor stuff? And I'm not talking about quests with elaborate plot and new locations. Could be some guy in the tavern wanting you to assassinate someone, mage wanting you to bring him some potion ingredients, random encounters in Athkatla/Baldurs Gate, etc. Anything. Can this be explained in some other way than 'they didn't have the time'?
The only good part is that some of the new content is actually good, like Neera's quest in SoA. Fight in the enclave in waukeen's promenade was fun and challenging for 7-10 level party.
5. New items
The quantity of new items/weapons is so small, that it's not even funny. Was it that hard to add few weapons in each category, especially the one's that lacked power in the vanilla like spears/clubs/bastards? I'm not talking about throwing in dozens of +2/+3 stuff in BG1. Is it a problem to create some weapons/armour that are not overpowered and actually give you some diversity? This especially hurts in BG1, where most of the time you run with generic +1 swords or the rare unique stuff that game decides to give you at the moment, like varscona or spiderbane. It would be hell lot more fun to have some choice, take IWDs for example. It's sad that Beamdog didn't have time for that, but they've managed to include something like Bealoth in. Also, why the f*ck the only gem bag in BG1 is the Neera's one? Given the amount of jewelry loot in BG1, it would be awesome if you could buy the bag in at least few shops. Again, same as with new quests, this suppose to be incentive for taking this awesome new NPC.
Don't want to bore anyone, I think I'll stop here, as the main issues I have with EEs are covered.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Beamdog. I'm glad that they've exhumated BGs and polished them so they became more enjoyable than ever. Especially BG1, which hasn't aged very well. Like said in the beginning, EE made me rediscover BG1. As soon as I finish current run, I'm starting another one with a Blade.
The thing is, every single BG mod out there is for free. This is not. EEs had aspirations to be something more than mods, with all the new npcs/quests/kits/items hysteria. In the end, you just have few unlikable NPCs that don't fit in the canon, zero quests beside the NPC-related ones, few new items, and kits that are gamebreaking for BG1. This could've been easily made by a few (or even one) modders for free. So, where did all the money go? I know that porting the engine to ipad was probably the most difficult and expensive thing, fair enough. But couldn't Beamdog hire a few die hard fans who could actually create some new kickass content, that would be on the Bioware's level in terms of writing? Couldn't they get some guys responsible for SCS to get AI improved? It's sad, but I can't help but think that the main target for EEs are not people who love the saga and would kill for new stuff, but the modern kids who grew up on WOW and Witcher.
I know that most of the people here are fans of EEs - please don't feel offended and don't bash me. I'm bad at internet fights. Just wanted to share some of my sentiments and vent some dissapointment.
ps. english is not my first language, so this whole rambling might've sounded incoherent at times.
First of all, it's super awesome that Beamdog took BGs and revamped them into more modern and smooth form. I've finished SOA/TOB dozens of times, but never really got through BG1. I was 11 when it originally came out, and being a kid used to Diablo, it was just too damn hard. No internet, no metagaming, convoluted rules, steep difficulty curve for a low level party, etc - this ended up in throwing the game on the shelf and not getting back to it. BG2 and TOB came, and being a little older, I've enjoyed them like no other RPGs before. After going through them many times, I wanted to go back and finally finish the first one, but the general clunkiness of the engine and the low res made it hard to enjoy. Note that I'm talking about vanilla game, not being aware of any mods at that time. BGEE was the reason I finally went back to Candlekeep and enjoyed every minute of the game. Big thumbs up for Beamdog, for tweaking 90s game into something so playable, even by today standards.
Now the harsh part.
The main problem is that EEs pretends to be something more than cosmetic tweaks. The OMG NEW QUESTS/ITEMS/NPCS is in your face. You can't even start/load a game without going through screen with new characters. It's like developers are saying 'see how much we have created? it's not some free mod from the internet that you have to install through WEIDU, we've officially added whole new content with Bioware's approval, that's right there after you install the game!!11'. Now, there are lots of mods with new content out there, but they are below average. Most of them are on the level of bad fanfiction. They just so painfully stand out from the original game that you can't really enjoy them. So the new content, made by professionals, would be more than welcomed, right?
Here goes the disappointment:
1. New kits.
Some of the kits had their fair place in BG2, but in BG1 they're just plain overpowered, like berserker or archer. So what did Beamdog do? Added more overpowered kits. Seriously, poison weapon or defensive stance are so full of cheese it's not even funny. They would pass in BG2, with all the dragons, demons, backstabbing assassins and high level mages, but in BG they're just game breaking. Just put your dwarf in the first line and watch how the idiot AI is trying to hit him, instead of your archers or mages. Speaking of AI.
2. AI
Absolutely no changes, from what I've noticed. You can still kite enemies, and they will run around you character in circle like retards, while the rest of your party is showering them with arrows/spells. For veteran BG players this is really painful and takes away most of the fun out of the game. Without any new challenge each new playthrough feels like doing a grocery list. I guess that's why people are doing solo or no reload runs. Playing with full party, even on higher than core settings, is a walk in the park for folks who finished trilogy few times. There's absolutely no excuse why the AI wasn't improved. SCS was released completely for free, so a whole team of 'professional developers' couldn't improve this, even just a tiny bit? AI isn't hard coded, since we got SCS, so the only other excuse I can hear now is that 'they haven't got time'. Seriously dude? I thought you're releasing game (or enhancement, whatever) when it's 100% ready. They borrowed money from russian mob and had last month to pay it back or what? Without even slightest change in AI it's like they made it clear, that EE was marketed for young, modern-RPG players who can be fished with few flashy new NPCs.
3. NPCs
New NPCs were probably the most advertised aspect of EEs, and ironically they are their biggest failure. Now, I know that lot of folks here are content with the new characters and I'm probably gathering some serious hate right now, but let's take a look at them with sober eye.
Main problem is that all of them are 100% stock RPG characters and flat cardboard cutouts. We have bad, evil dark paladin, who with each banter has to remind you how badass he is. Beside that there's nothing more to him, just evil half orc grunt. Artwork looks cartoonish and it's like straight from WoW. You can't help but think, that developers had younger gamers in mind while creating him. You know, the ones that play mmorpgs and like to put their game badass character's pictures on facebook or as forum avatars. Evil paladin with colorful full plate, fancy video game sword, horned helmet and glowing eyes. So bad. Also, the voicing is terrible, he sound like some cheesy villain from 80s action flicks. And he sounds too much human, like couldn't they add some half orc barking just for flavour?
Next we have american quirky teenage mage Neera. Her manga-like artwork gives you a big clue what on to expect. You know guys, I'm kinda like sooooo powerful, but then, it's like, I totally can't control my powers! It's like, a total bummer, yeah? Her voicing and whole character concept is terrible and just mood breaking. Now, I know that there's a lot of subtle (and not so subtle) humour spread along the trilogy, and that's fine. I don't have a stick right up my ass and I enjoyed all of it - comical relief just added flavour (similar to Fallout 1&2). But she's just too much, it's like Beamdog said 'f*ck this, we're putting Juno in'. Similar to Dorn - can't help but think that she was made for younger gamers, not for veterans who'd rather have someone with more depth. Beside, the whole motif 'protagonist with magical gift being hunted for it' was rehashed in movies and novels so many times, that it became a cliche. Couldn't they came up with someone more original?
Rasaad - generic zen-like monk. Not much to say about him beside that he's boring and annoying as hell when he tries to share his 'wisdom' with you. Now, I know that it's a class that narrows the field for creating some original personality, but couldn't they add some interesting spin to him? Instead of making him the cliche calm and lawful monk you know from movies and other games, they could, for example, twist him into chaotic evil direction. You know, search for enlightenment went wrong, he turned crazy, killed his master etc. Instead, we have a cardboard cutout of video game badass monk. Except he's not badass - in BG1 he's close to useless. So in order to see some new quests, you have to deliberately cripple your party by taking him in.
And there's Hexxat, lesbian vampire dominatrix. Cheesiness of the highest degree. Her voicing in the Copper Coronet is the most cringe inducing thing I have heard (beside the stoner elf). I know that they've tried to make her a possessed, absent minded person with a mechanical voice, an empty shell etc. It ended in a fail of epic proportions. Seriously, you just want to kill her on the spot when she open's her mouth.
Baeloth - I know he's supposed to be an easter egg and stuff, but why the hell would you add some half-finished, cheesy NPC, instead of taking your time to refine the ones already created? Similar to Dorn, he's way too overpowered and his whole personality and portrait makes you think that he was intended for WoW teenagers (sarcastic and funny dark elf sorceror, it's liek totally awesome!')
It's unforgivable for people who are supposedly into oldschool RPGs to create such subpar NPCs. The writing is on teenage fanfiction level, which doesn't go very well with other Bioware characters and stands out painfully. Vanilla NPCs were the most awesome and colourful characters you had in computer RPG. Even the most straightforward ones, like Korgan, were extremely fun and likable, mainly because of banters and voice acting.
General cheesiness of their personalities aside - the main factor that makes me not wanting to take them again is their classes. Let's see what we have here.
Blackguard - overpowered, takes the fun and challenge out of the game. Like said above, in BG2 it's tolerable. In BG1 his abilities are almost game breaking. Part of the challenge was always the fact that you didn't have any really good fighters, beside Kagain and Shar-Teel. But that was ok and made the game more fun. Both BG1 and BG2 would be super easy, if you could create your powerhouse party from the scratch and have your 18/18/18/x/x/x dual wielding tanks. Making your way with flawed warriors was just fun. So why the hell add some powergamer wet dream? For new gamers who got EE from steam as a christmas present?
Monk - low level monks are useless. It's either throwing bullets from the back row and using special abilities, or micromanaging each fight so he can hit enemies which are enaged with fight with your tanks and won't hit him back. Why they've added him to BG1 is beyond my comprehension.
Wild mage and sorcerer - why adding classes that were already abundant in vanilla BG1? Alright, you didn't have wild mage nor sorcerer. But you had four pure spellcasters and one multi, both for good and evil parties, and wildie/sorc doesn't differ that much from mages. Were another arcane spellcasters really necessary?
Thief - same as above. In BG1 you have thieves literally everywhere, why another one? In BG2 it's more understandable, since the game suffers greatly from lack of good rogues, but couldn't they at least give her some fun kit, like swashbuckler or assassin? Instead, you got boring vanilla thief, which you have to micromanage constantly with that annoying cloak.
Couldn't Beamdog add NPC who have classes that weren't actually in vanilla game (and aren't as useless as low level monk)? Why not adding blade, or stalker, or fighter/mage, or ranger/cleric?
4. New quests
Sadly, the only new quests are related to the new NPCs. Was there any logical reason behind that? It's like the developers are saying 'you want those new quests? well, you can have them, but first you have to take those awesome new NPCs that we've created!'. You paid for the game, but you don't like the new characters. You think that at least you have some new quests? No.
Seriously, was it that hard to add even some minor stuff? And I'm not talking about quests with elaborate plot and new locations. Could be some guy in the tavern wanting you to assassinate someone, mage wanting you to bring him some potion ingredients, random encounters in Athkatla/Baldurs Gate, etc. Anything. Can this be explained in some other way than 'they didn't have the time'?
The only good part is that some of the new content is actually good, like Neera's quest in SoA. Fight in the enclave in waukeen's promenade was fun and challenging for 7-10 level party.
5. New items
The quantity of new items/weapons is so small, that it's not even funny. Was it that hard to add few weapons in each category, especially the one's that lacked power in the vanilla like spears/clubs/bastards? I'm not talking about throwing in dozens of +2/+3 stuff in BG1. Is it a problem to create some weapons/armour that are not overpowered and actually give you some diversity? This especially hurts in BG1, where most of the time you run with generic +1 swords or the rare unique stuff that game decides to give you at the moment, like varscona or spiderbane. It would be hell lot more fun to have some choice, take IWDs for example. It's sad that Beamdog didn't have time for that, but they've managed to include something like Bealoth in. Also, why the f*ck the only gem bag in BG1 is the Neera's one? Given the amount of jewelry loot in BG1, it would be awesome if you could buy the bag in at least few shops. Again, same as with new quests, this suppose to be incentive for taking this awesome new NPC.
Don't want to bore anyone, I think I'll stop here, as the main issues I have with EEs are covered.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Beamdog. I'm glad that they've exhumated BGs and polished them so they became more enjoyable than ever. Especially BG1, which hasn't aged very well. Like said in the beginning, EE made me rediscover BG1. As soon as I finish current run, I'm starting another one with a Blade.
The thing is, every single BG mod out there is for free. This is not. EEs had aspirations to be something more than mods, with all the new npcs/quests/kits/items hysteria. In the end, you just have few unlikable NPCs that don't fit in the canon, zero quests beside the NPC-related ones, few new items, and kits that are gamebreaking for BG1. This could've been easily made by a few (or even one) modders for free. So, where did all the money go? I know that porting the engine to ipad was probably the most difficult and expensive thing, fair enough. But couldn't Beamdog hire a few die hard fans who could actually create some new kickass content, that would be on the Bioware's level in terms of writing? Couldn't they get some guys responsible for SCS to get AI improved? It's sad, but I can't help but think that the main target for EEs are not people who love the saga and would kill for new stuff, but the modern kids who grew up on WOW and Witcher.
I know that most of the people here are fans of EEs - please don't feel offended and don't bash me. I'm bad at internet fights. Just wanted to share some of my sentiments and vent some dissapointment.
ps. english is not my first language, so this whole rambling might've sounded incoherent at times.
7
Comments
On that, you are not alone with the new NPCs as lot of people have been critical of their story and dialog and I hope it is something they have improved for SoD. The only new character that I like is Neera, but I can see why she would be off putting to other people. Baeloth is the villain in The Black Pits and was only added to the main game after the fan fair he got from the BP. (If you haven't played BP yet, give it a whirl. I enjoyed the NPCs there better than what they added into the main game and it has some good tactical battles.)
~V
Thanks Beamdog, Enhanced Edition is pretty good.
(This forum is for respectfully sharing and discussing opinions so I'll echo what @elminster said with a hearty welcome!)
I would like to concentrate on one aspect of your OP which is wrong. AI is not part of the game engine. The AI is part of game data (not the engine). Like dialogue.
AI is driven by scripts, which are set on a per-creature basis. Some creatures share the same script, but integrating an advanced AI into BG1 and BG2 is somewhat more complex than simply merging the code bases together.
A change of this magnitude would involve rewriting the existing AI, not simply setting a few flags. Such an undertaking would be enormous.
You can read about it here: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/666446/#Comment_666446
So, it is not that Beamdog, in your words, @spiderland , "haven't got time". In fact, it is because rewriting the existing AI is such a huge task that it would enlarge the time spent on creating EEs in times and thus making its price much higher.
Right now, Beamdog are making a new expansion for BGEE, Siege of Dragonspear, which will have a new, much improved AI.
People call Neera intrusive when Viconia does the exact same thing! The second you walk into the damn area you're pulled into some shit.
They are flat cardboard cut outs? They all freaking are! Hell before bg2 THEY WERE ALL RAGDOLLS WITH NO PERSONALITY AT ALL! Shoot, they were just there to be there.
Blackguard and DD overpowered? Yea because there wasn't a single overpowered or underpowered kit before bgee on bg2.
I just don't understand why people hate things that from my perspective were already there in the original game, but now is bad in EE.
Although I've always played bg 1 in the bg 2 engine so it hasn't actually been an issue for me.
And I honestly couldn't go back even if I wanted to. Vanilla classes are simply too dull for my main PC. Kit advantages and disadvantages are all part of the fun.
I agree to this. I sincerely dislike the non-optional screen of the new NPC's every time I load up the game, but it's a small price to pay.
If/when you want to play a CHARNAME throughout the saga, the kits in BG2/ToB need to be in BG1. It's been said a thousand times but is worth saying again: in a singleplayer game, all classes and kits doesn't have to be balanced. This is not LoL/DotA. Play a ~<80-roll blackguard on highest diff. and even without SCS you will prolly get a fair challenge. Restrict your sleeping or use other self-imposed restrictions to enhance your gameplay. Whatever you do, CHARNAME will always be 'OP' since there are so many ways to win every fight, always has been, always will be.
<blockquote class="UserQuote">
2. AI
Absolutely no changes, from what I've noticed. You can still kite enemies, and they will run around you character in circle like retards, while the rest of your party is showering them with arrows/spells. For veteran BG players this is really painful and takes away most of the fun out of the game. Without any new challenge each new playthrough feels like doing a grocery list. I guess that's why people are doing solo or no reload runs. Playing with full party, even on higher than core settings, is a walk in the park for folks who finished trilogy few times. There's absolutely no excuse why the AI wasn't improved. SCS was released completely for free, so a whole team of 'professional developers' couldn't improve this, even just a tiny bit? AI isn't hard coded, since we got SCS, so the only other excuse I can hear now is that 'they haven't got time'. Seriously dude? I thought you're releasing game (or enhancement, whatever) when it's 100% ready. They borrowed money from russian mob and had last month to pay it back or what? Without even slightest change in AI it's like they made it clear, that EE was marketed for young, modern-RPG players who can be fished with few flashy new NPCs.
OK, the first part I agree with, but regarding beamdog's financials I think you have no f-cking clue what it takes for a company to survive, make money and yield results. There's a reason so many games are released prematurely, and it ain't because developers don't give a crap about the game, it's because the world is a brutal place and without revenue, you die. The demands for profit outweighs everything, but if it weren't for that lust for profit and the possibilities to gain money, alot of great ideas would never come to fruition due to lack of funding. It's commonly said that "necessity is the mother of inventions" but in reality it's more like "the lust for money is the mother of creation". And that's a good thing.
Ok, first you say you dislike the cardboard copy of a dark, villanious halforc but then you want them to have added a barking orc voice? Do you know that halforcs in older DnD editions were much closer to humans than the WoW-inspired versions? I'm no fan of the new NPC's but your opinion seem contradictionary. There have been numerous discussions about his alignment though, and I agree that he's kinda one-sided in his "evilness", so I only use him in an evil party lacking front-line muscle in some playthroughs. Hehe, I have to admit I agree to much of this. Neera is IMHO the least interresing new NPC.
There's a great monk in NVN, chaotic evil. It has already been done so if they would have added one here, it would be less 'original' then adding Rasaad since there are no other monks like him in the saga or other DnD games (I haven't played much NVN2 though, perhaps there's a similar monk there, I dunno). You don't say why it's a "fail of epic proprotions". When you meet Clara, she is indeed an empty husk with but a single mission, to lure someone to Hexxat's aid. Do I wanna smash her face in? Yes. But do I think it's portraited perfectly? Yes, I do. If that kind of NPC(s, plural) had been in the original game, everyone would have raged on about how ingenious it would have been and praised it's originality. Now just because it's a beamdog addition, it's considered stupid. The game lacked a SC thief so they added one. Why is that bad? They even added one with a twist, she's a vamp. Would I have preferred a kit? Yes, but that's nothing eekeeper can't take care of in under a minute of my time. I have to agree that Baeloth wasn't really needed since BG1 is full of mages, whereof two evil ones. But then again, he's added for shits and giggles, so take it or leave it. I've always found Korgan to be really boring. Sure, he's a good tank, but he doesn't add that much flavour to a group. Like Kagain in BG1, who's a total drag. I wouldn't have mind if they had fleshed out his character in BG1 actually, that would have been a worthy addition.
Dorn has no HP from CON bonus, but yeah, other than that he's super strong. For me he feels like he can be used instead of Shar, next to Kagain, in BG1 when playing an evil party. He's like the opposite of Minsc. I would actually not be surprised if that was the intention, Dorn and his patron as the anti-Minsc with his Dyna (and Boo). One uber evil, one uber good. But again, even if BGuard is OP in BG1, it's needed for consistency into BG2.
There were no monk class NPC's in the game and I guess they wanted one. I like that we have almost all classes represented in the game and see that as one if it's strenghts. I would have personally preferred more kits on NPC's, but again, eekeeper can handle that for you. You're fighting windmills here. They weren't added for necessity, but I assume, for versatility. Since when is more choices a BAD thing? I don't get your point at all.
I agree a kit would have been more fun, but then again, the sword coast is full of people and monsters of different origion and with different classes. If everyone is a kit, then those with kits become less 'special'. Having most NPC's using standard classes make it funnier to try out all the kits yourself. If you played through the game using all NPC's and each had kits, then you would have tried them all in three runs or so. Now with many vanilla class NPC's, you need to play one yourself to try it out. That's a good thing, but keeper can (as always) help you tweak NPC's if you want it. Huh? There's a stalker, Valygar. There's a blade, Haer'dalis. I would have loved a F/M NPC's, but it's prolly one of the most common CHARNAME classes though, perhaps that's why it's not included.
I don't know everything, but I think it was very much intentional to not add quests or change other parts of the original game. I would have liked if they released quest packs, like new characters popping up which could start new quests which were optional.
There's already a plethora of items in the game(s). True, some proficiences are better than others, but hey.. that's just life and to me it adds immersion that there are differences between prof's. If more ppl use longswords more smiths will make swords and there will be more to choose from. I think it fits the theme. I agree on the gem bag though, I love containers (gem bag, scroll case, potion case) and would like to have them all available early. I don't like bags of holding though since I think inventory management is a essential part of RPG's. If you can pick up everything you might as well add a button to "auto-sell from inventory without going through a vendor" and that is a immersion-breaking addition to any game. I would sincerely hate that.
Btw, it may sound like I am debating you, but I'm just stating my opinions without the intention to start a fight. I think these kind of discussions is an essential part of a healthy community and enjoy them thoroughly.
I was going to mention how Dorn looking like he's from WoW with the horned helmet and red eyes actually isn't out of place because
Though I will say they actually don't look like they are from WoW.
Their shoulder armor needs to be at least three times larger.
edit,
We all have our opinions, and I respect his of course, it this just baffles me.
Adding any more items probably would have been unbalancing. Part of the game is finding a weapon that you can use. The fact that any character can use any weapon effectively in pillars of eternity is one of my big grudges with the game. I agree that the could have added backstories to generic weapons but on the other hand not everyone can be special. It would make and sense every kobold has a sword with some deep and interesting backstory. Realistically most weapon backstories would be "made by a blacksmith and sold to the dude you just murdered"
And finally bealoth. I would be cautious criticizing him if you didn't run into him on accident. I was one of the people who honest to god "discovered" him, and it's a pretty cool feeling. Also his character is basically a joke, so I think on the fact that he's hilarious we can give him a pass.
As a whole, I do think there was definitely room for improvement in some of the writing but don't have an issue with the characters being grossly overpowered. I would like the option to do the quests without them as I feel they are much more developed quest lines than the "background" quests you get in BG2 where you need to have the character in the party (for example, contract Keldorn's short quest with Dorn's quest as a comparison of paladin specific content). When quests with real substantive content were setup in BG2 - a dungeon to crawl, a separate area, etc., you could do them with or without the relevant character: Nalia can be left outside the castle; Cernd can be left to wait for you; Haer Dalis need not be in the party for even a moment; Valygar can be alive or dead when the quest starts; etc.
Fair enough, don't have problem with that and it's totally understandable. The only thing that bugs me, is that despite all the points that 'AI is hardcoded/would've take a lot of money to change/etc', we still have SCS. Now, I'm not aware how many folks worked on it and how much time it consumed, but I imagine that they had much less resources than Beamdog
The part about adding the barking was refering only to the voice acting. They could made him into some non-cardboard halforc AND still keep the gruff/barbaric voice, which would add him some flesh and give you feeling that he's really only half human. Don't know about older DnDs, the main halforc image in my mind is the one from character portrait from BG2, and he definitely shouldn't sound like 100% human. I'm just nitpicking anyway, this isn't something mood-breaking and not much of a problem. Maybe not necessarily chaotic evil, but perhaps slightly mad or just quirky? Anything would do. The problem is that he represents the ultimate monk stereotype and it makes you wish that they could break this, even in some small way. I meant her voicing as Clara. As said, I know that she's suppose to be empty shell and sound mechanical, but it ended up do unnatural and annoying, that I just can't stomach it. Maybe it's just matter of opinion. Anyway, I still find her the most interesting of new NPCs. I know that he's there just for the shits, same as Wilson, but it just makes me wish that they'd add another full blown NPC (even without any extensive side quest) instead of putting eggs. Agree to Kagain, he always felt like a lazy writing. But Korgan, even being extremely one dimensional (not counting his attitude toward Mazzy), is extremely fun for a RPG character, mainly because of the banters and first class voice acting. He's the best example that you can add some flesh to supposedly flat personality. That's my biggest problem with new NPC - they're flat AND don't have any redeeming qualities, like Korg.
Also, some of you guys are saying that original BG1 NPCs were ragdolls. True to some extent, given the lack of banters compared to BG2. But each of them had some quirks, with which you could easily imagine their backstories, and made them fun to play. Plus he comes with his gear, which is more than good through most of the game, and the poison weapon, which is too much for BG1. Wouldn't it be better to have a barbarian, who would be both usable and not overpowered in both games? Especially that there's none in the originals. Can agree to that, it can be nice for people who wanted to try him out, but didn't wanted to make a monk PC. It just bugs me how a low level one is dragging your party down. In BG1 you have to deliberately cripple your team just to check the new content. Fair enough, but I would rather have i.e some good aligned fighter kit, since there isn't much of a choice for a good parties. Sorry, forgot to add I was thinking about BG1 with this one. It would be awesome to have usable bard in BG1 or backstabbing melee like stalker. F/M would be even more awesome, because it would give the chance to try him out for new players, who are for some reasons afraid to make a CHARNAME one. Maybe that's the case, though I always thought that minor quests, not interfering with original content, were permitted.
Yeah, but the problem (mainly in BG1) is that you're always ending with the same gear. Wouldn't it be cool to have a lot of +1 weapons with some minor enchantments (like 20% for additional d3 dmg, 10% to cast bless on wielder, etc, you get the idea)? Lots of non overpowered stuff, on approximately same level of usefulness, would give you the fun of choice and trying different combinations in each new run. words of wisdom
Sorry for few replies in a row, but seeing first few comments it looked like the tread is turning into semi-funny one-liner fest and I haven't really thought I'll come back here d: - )
V1: Initial release 21st July 2006
Version 30 (January 2015)
So 8.5 - 9 years depending on how long it was worked on before release.
SCS includes wide array of changes, that were succedingly added during the years, whenever the modder felt like or had some free time to spend on it. I think that a group of PAID programmers, working on the code daily, could've done similar improvements in not years, but few weeks/months max. And I'm not talking about re-writing everything - even just some smallest improvements in AI would be nice.
The problem is, EE's cost a lot of money. At least a lot more than you would demand for a visual rehash with minor tweaks of a late 90s games. For 20 eur, it is more than understandable to expect having some improvements of vanillas downsides. We're not talking about some minor incvonvenience, but f*cking AI, which contributes to the gameplay fun more than anything else.
Both of those are completely subjective to taste. For example I prefer wild mage above mage and every kit, not because it has no restrictions, but because wild surge actually brings flavor to the mage. No other mage kit does that, in fact there is no real difference between any of the mage kits, so wild mage does exactly that, brigs something different for arcane players like myself.
And sorcerer is completely different from both since it puts you in a position where you have to choose on the spot what you want and then you have to deal with that choice the rest of your life. Unlike the mage that lets you pick and change.
Also again, using the attitude of a character as a argument is subjective. I hate Edwin's attitude and you can't call one character cheese and use that against them and then justify another cheese character because of attitude. Also there is no banter in bg1 so that can't even be used to justify picking Edwin in bg1 while prosecuting Baeloth.