Weapon Speed Factor?

WithinAmnesia

Solely Based On Proven Source Book Rulings From Advanced Dungeons And Dragons 2nd Edition: Which Quotation Below Is / Are Correct, And Which Is / Are Wrong?

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"As you all know a round takes 6 seconds (ok, you all didn't know...). A speed factor of 4 means it takes you 4/10 of a round to strike, so you can make 2,5 strikes a round. This speedfactor can be raised by magical means (haste), weapons (bows are usually faster as 2-handed swords), and of course profincy, as the matter of fact, by going from master to grand master this is the only improvement."

"Here go, reading from the second edition's player's handbook (black and red edition), page 127, under the title 'weapon speed and intiiative (optional rule)'

each time a character swings a weapon, he places himself out of position to make his next attack. swinging a hammer is not as simple as tapping in a nail. A war hammer is heavy. Swing it in one direction and it pulls in that direction. It has to be brought under control and repositioned before it can be swung again. The user must regain his balance and plant his feet firmly. Only after doing all this work is he ready for his next attack.

Compare how quickly someone can throw a punch to the amount of time required to swing a chair to get a good idea of what weapon speed factors are about.

Weapon speed factors slow the speed of a character's attack. The higher the weapon speed, the heavier, clumsier, or more limited the weapon is. For the most part, weapon speed factors apply to all creatures using manufactured weapons. The speed factor of a weaspon is added to the intiative roll of the character to get his modified intiative roll.

there's another paragraph after all that, but it goes on to say how if the DM decides to use speed factors, he should use them for the monsters, as well as the PCs.

now, how this all equates in the much different format of baldur's gate, i'm not 100% sure, but that's the basis for speed factors in pen and paper, so i imagine it's real similar in the game."

Source Link: http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/327/t289536-speed-factor/

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"Speed Factor: Each type of weapon has a Speed Factor, which determines at what point in the round the attack will actually be made. A Speed Factor of 4 means that at the start of each round of combat, the character will wait for 4/10ths of the round to pass, and then attack. Cumbersome weapons such as Flails and Crossbows have the slowest Speed Factors, and small weapons like Daggers have the quickest. Note that the Speed Factor of your weapon does NOT affect how rapidly you can attack with it (that is determined solely by your Attacks per Round), it simply reflects how long it takes between the time you issue the Attack command, and when the attack is actually made. It is important largely only for characters attacking from Stealth, where a quicker Speed Factor can give you a second chance at a Backstab (before you become visible) if you missed the first time."

Source Link: http://www.pocketplane.net/volothamp/chap2.htm

Skatan

Not sure about the question, and I don't know much about the game mechanics, but in-game the latter seem to describe it well. Speed factor affects the amount of time from the attack command to actually attacking.

After that I am unsure actually, but I guess the game calculates the number or time left in a round and divdes it by the number of APR you have left, then distribute your remaining attacks in that window. Someone more knowledgeble than could prolly give a definite answer.

It would be interresting to hear how the game handles APR when it's 5/2 or 7/2. Is the second round also affected by the speed factor of the weapon or are your attacks evenly distributed throughout 12 seconds instead of 6 * 2 ?

semiticgoddess

Tested it with a character with 2.5 APR, using the Answerer and then a Dagger +3, with speed factors of 9 and 0, respectively. I used Aerie to time the attacks by casting healing spells (speed factor 5 each) and checking when each attack occurred.

With the Answerer, the character attacked 3 times the first round, and twice the second. With the Dagger +3, it varied during the two dagger tests. In the first test, it struck 3 times the first round and 2 APR the next. In the second test, it was the other way around. The Answerer struck only after the 5 speed factor healing spell was casting, whether the character made 3 attack rolls or only 2. The Dagger +3 struck twice before the healing spell was cast, even with 3 attack rolls instead of 2.

Findings:
-If you have an extra 0.5 APR, it is not distributed evenly. You have a 50% chance, it seems, of having a full extra attack every other round. Speed factor does not appear to affect this.
-Speed factor works a little differently. It just slows down the first attack roll, and fits the remaining attack rolls into the time remaining before the round ends.

But since your character only can fit so many attack animations in a round, very high APR values (like 10) should still effectively increase speed factor by forcing the character to make the attack rolls early in order to get them all into 6 seconds.

Skatan

semiticgod said:

But since your character only can fit so many attack animations in a round, very high APR values (like 10) should still effectively increase speed factor by forcing the character to make the attack rolls early in order to get them all into 6 seconds.

Nice testing @semiticgod! This last part makes me curious though. If it's true it would make, for example, the second pip in twohanded weapon skill fairly pointless if GWW is used, since the reduced speed factor would be a redundant effect not worth the pip investment (though I seldom use it anyways).

WithinAmnesia

Hey Umm @semiticgod

So does Weapon Speed Factor determine the amount of attacks that weapon has per round?

Say for instance (With 1 Attacks Per Round On The Wielder):
---Non-Magical Two-Handed Sword vs. Non-Magical Dagger.---

Would The Dagger Have more attacks per round than the Two-Handed Sword?

(e.g The dagger hits more often but with less damage when compared to a Two-Handed Sword?)

semiticgoddess

@WithinAmnesia: Nope. Speed factor has no impact on APR, unless you don't spend the full 6 seconds attacking. Spending 3 seconds walking around or casting a spell could crowd out more attacks from a slower weapon that takes more time to start making attack rolls.

@Skatan: Speed factor is also relevant for early game situations and for non-fighters, in which cases APR isn't high enough to negate the effects of speed factor, and a late attack roll could fail to interrupt an enemy spell.

WithinAmnesia

@semiticgod is this system a Baldur's Gate way of doing Weapon Speed Factor? Or is this method found with 'Source Book' Pen and Paper AD&D 2nd Edition?

AstroBryGuy

Baldur's Gate is going by PnP rules. This is from the Player's Handbook.

Weapon Speed and Initiative (Optional Rule)
Each time a character swings a weapon, he places himself out of position to make his next attack. Swinging a hammer is not as simple as tapping in a nail. A war hammer is heavy. Swing it in one direction and it pulls in that direction. It has to be brought under control and repositioned before it can be swung again. The user must regain his balance and plant his feet firmly. Only after doing all this is he ready for his next attack.

Compare how quickly someone can throw a punch to the amount of time required to swing a chair to get a good idea of what weapon speed factors are about.

Weapon speed factors slow the speed of a character's attack. The higher the weapon speed factor, the heavier, clumsier, or more limited the weapon is. For the most part, weapon speed factors apply to all creatures using manufactured weapons. The speed factor of a weapon is added to the initiative roll of the character to get his modified initiative roll.

Thus, if the DM decides to use weapon speed factors for player characters, they should also be used for giants, orcs, centaurs, and the like. Otherwise the DM isn't being fair to the players. However, creatures with natural weapons are not affected by weapon speed. Their attacks are natural extensions of their bodies, giving them much faster recovery and reaction times.

Magical Weapon Speeds
Magical weapons are easier to wield in combat than ordinary ones. Maybe the weapon is lighter or better balanced than normal; maybe it just pulls the character into the proper position of its own volition. Whatever the cause, each bonus point conferred by a magical weapon reduces the speed factor of that weapon by 1. (A sword +3 reduces the weapon speed factor by 3, for example.) When a weapon has two bonuses, the lesser one is used. No weapon can have a speed factor of less than 0.

WithinAmnesia

AstroBryGuy said:

Baldur's Gate is going by PnP rules. This is from the Player's Handbook.

Weapon Speed and Initiative (Optional Rule)
Each time a character swings a weapon, he places himself out of position to make his next attack. Swinging a hammer is not as simple as tapping in a nail. A war hammer is heavy. Swing it in one direction and it pulls in that direction. It has to be brought under control and repositioned before it can be swung again. The user must regain his balance and plant his feet firmly. Only after doing all this is he ready for his next attack.

Compare how quickly someone can throw a punch to the amount of time required to swing a chair to get a good idea of what weapon speed factors are about.

Weapon speed factors slow the speed of a character's attack. The higher the weapon speed factor, the heavier, clumsier, or more limited the weapon is. For the most part, weapon speed factors apply to all creatures using manufactured weapons. The speed factor of a weapon is added to the initiative roll of the character to get his modified initiative roll.

Thus, if the DM decides to use weapon speed factors for player characters, they should also be used for giants, orcs, centaurs, and the like. Otherwise the DM isn't being fair to the players. However, creatures with natural weapons are not affected by weapon speed. Their attacks are natural extensions of their bodies, giving them much faster recovery and reaction times.

Magical Weapon Speeds
Magical weapons are easier to wield in combat than ordinary ones. Maybe the weapon is lighter or better balanced than normal; maybe it just pulls the character into the proper position of its own volition. Whatever the cause, each bonus point conferred by a magical weapon reduces the speed factor of that weapon by 1. (A sword +3 reduces the weapon speed factor by 3, for example.) When a weapon has two bonuses, the lesser one is used. No weapon can have a speed factor of less than 0.

I still wonder though, I hear no reference to speed factor being only used for initiative. Rather I see an open end as to where the ruling establishes agility behavioral differences of weapons based on their weapon speed factor. I also see a non-hard defined system of weapon speeds during combat as in within this quotation from above:
"The user must regain his balance and plant his feet firmly. Only after doing all this is he ready for his next attack...
Weapon speed factors slow the speed of a character's attack. The higher the weapon speed factor, the heavier, clumsier, or more limited the weapon is...
The speed factor of a weapon is added to the initiative roll of the character to get his modified initiative roll."

Now These two quotations stand out greatly for myself:
"Weapon speed factors slow the speed of a character's attack. The higher the weapon speed factor, the heavier, clumsier, or more limited the weapon is..."
"Thus, if the DM decides to use weapon speed factors for player characters, they should also be used for giants, orcs, centaurs, and the like. Otherwise the DM isn't being fair to the players."- This quote in particular shows that the 'official ruling' can indeed become that of which -case by case- each Dungeon Master can decide to be used within the ruling that they create their own games around.

Thus I do not find myself to be fully convinced that Baldur's Gate Weapon Speed is a 100% copy from Official Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Rulings. Although I wonder if I am wrong.

I wonder what is said about Attack Per Round within the official source books of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 2nd Edition. What insights might I myself and others find therein?

AstroBryGuy

The weapon speed factor affects where in the initiative order the first attack will be. Any multiple attacks the character has then occur after all other attacks have occurred.

No initiative rule grants extra attacks per round just for having a low weapon speed factor.

Here's what the PHB says on multiple attacks and initiative:

Multiple Attacks and Initiative
Often combat involves creatures or characters able to attack more than once in a single round. This may be due to multiple attack forms (claws and bite), skill with a weapon, or character level. No matter what the reason, all multiple attacks are handled by one of two methods.

When multiple attacks are the result of different attack forms--claws and a bite or bite and tail or a ranger with his two-weapon combat ability for example--the attacks all occur at the same time. The creature resolves all of its attacks in initiative order.

When the attacks are true multiples--using the same weapon more than once--as in the case of a highly skilled fighter, the attacks are staggered. Everyone involved in the combat completes one action before the second (or subsequent) attack roll is made.

Take, for example, a fighter who can attack twice per round, and say he's battling creatures that can only
make one attack. The fighter wins initiative. He makes his first attack according to the rolled initiative order. Then each creature gets its attack. Finally, the fighter gets his second attack.

If fighters on both sides in a battle were able to attack twice in the round, their first attacks would occur according to the initiative roll. Their second attacks would come after all other attacks, and would then alternate according to the initiative roll.

WithinAmnesia

@AstroBryGuy hmmn, my suspicions are correct. Thank you my friend.. You have reaffirmed my understanding around how Advanced Dungeons and Dragons combat is not relatable to real world melee combat in terms of weapon handling and striking agility. This makes me sad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5w2Mh6CyXo
Here is why.

lroumen

How does speed factor and multiple attacks per round tie in with the cast-n'-attack concept?
Suppose you have 3 attacks per round, start the round with drinking a potion, do you still get all remaining attack/how fast are yhe remaining attack(s) in the round?

Never really thought about these things. I just play the game without the knowledge.

AstroBryGuy

WithinAmnesia said:

@AstroBryGuy hmmn, my suspicions are correct. Thank you my friend.. You have reaffirmed my understanding around how Advanced Dungeons and Dragons combat is not relatable to real world melee combat in terms of weapon handling and striking agility. This makes me sad.

You misunderstand how AD&D simulates combat. Each attack roll is not one swing of the sword. In PnP, one combat round is a minute long and incorporates lots of feints, parries, etc..

When making an attack, a character is likely to close with his opponent, circle for an opening, feint here, jab there, block a thrust, leap back, and perhaps finally make a telling blow.

AD&D represents all this with its combat mechanics. Is it greatly simplified? Absolutely. Is it accurate to real world combat? Of course not. But, then this is a game of magic, monsters, and heroes.

WithinAmnesia

@AstroBryGuy I was so wrong. So wrong. So combat is just on a boarder scale? As in a bout of melee = an attack.. Hmm, although.. Huuuuuuhhh. So it is more macro than micro yes yes?

Also, as in after a round and after a successful dice roll 'hit' and say 'the Battle Axe wielding character' inflicts 8 damage.. So what is actually simulated is a transpiration of a bout of melee and say that '8 damage' could be say, 3 successful minor hits or one decisive hit within said round, as in at the end of the round it is all still '8 damage'?

Or am I wrong once again my insightful friend?

AstroBryGuy

WithinAmnesia said:

@AstroBryGuy I was so wrong. So wrong. So combat is just on a boarder scale? As in a bout of melee = an attack.. Hmm, although.. Huuuuuuhhh. So it is more macro than micro yes yes?

Correct. Each attack roll encompasses a series of moves, feints, parries, etc., looking for the opportunity to make a strike.

WithinAmnesia

AstroBryGuy said:

WithinAmnesia said:

@AstroBryGuy I was so wrong. So wrong. So combat is just on a boarder scale? As in a bout of melee = an attack.. Hmm, although.. Huuuuuuhhh. So it is more macro than micro yes yes?

Correct. Each attack roll encompasses a series of moves, feints, parries, etc., looking for the opportunity to make a strike.

Okay so inflicting damage via a successful hit roll is kind of told more like a story that way I suppose; while making the combat mechanics more ergonomical yes? Similar to how Tolkien tells a story, broad with detail?

WithinAmnesia

You Know What This Post Is Called?

AstroBryGuy said:

You misunderstand how AD&D simulates combat. Each attack roll is not one swing of the sword. In PnP, one combat round is a minute long and incorporates lots of feints, parries, etc..

When making an attack, a character is likely to close with his opponent, circle for an opening, feint here, jab there, block a thrust, leap back, and perhaps finally make a telling blow.

AD&D represents all this with its combat mechanics. Is it greatly simplified? Absolutely. Is it accurate to real world combat? Of course not. But, then this is a game of magic, monsters, and heroes.
Insightful +1.

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You Know What This Post Is Called?

WithinAmnesia said:

@AstroBryGuy hmmn, my suspicions are correct. Thank you my friend.. You have reaffirmed my understanding around how Advanced Dungeons and Dragons combat is not relatable to real world melee combat in terms of weapon handling and striking agility. This makes me sad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5w2Mh6CyXo
Here is why.

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Grand Irony.[/Spoiler]

semiticgoddess

In 2E, a round is 60 seconds. It's my understanding that in 3E, a round is 6 seconds, like it is in the IE games. The 60-second round makes more sense for a combat situation, in which it takes multiple seconds to set up a single attack, while the 6-second round makes more sense for a spellcaster, in which it shouldn't take a whole minute to cast a spell, or drink a potion.

AstroBryGuy

semiticgod said:

In 2E, a round is 60 seconds. It's my understanding that in 3E, a round is 6 seconds, like it is in the IE games. The 60-second round makes more sense for a combat situation, in which it takes multiple seconds to set up a single attack, while the 6-second round makes more sense for a spellcaster, in which it shouldn't take a whole minute to cast a spell, or drink a potion.

A round in IE games is 6 seconds of real time, but in-game time is compressed by a factor of 12 (i.e. 1 hour in-game is 5 minutes of real time). So, a round is still about a minute of in-game time.

semiticgoddess

It should be. The IE games besides IWD2 all use the 2nd edition.

YanderePrincess

I'm coming into this discussion extremely late, but isn't a round 6 seconds and a turn (10 rounds) 1 minute in PnP AD&D? I know that's what it is in 3e and onward, and I don't think that's something that would've been so drastically changed going from 2e to 3e (and my memory of 2e rulebooks coincides with what I'm saying, though I don't have them handy to doublecheck).

Lord_Tansheron

YanderePrincess said:

I'm coming into this discussion extremely late, but isn't a round 6 seconds and a turn (10 rounds) 1 minute in PnP AD&D? I know that's what it is in 3e and onward, and I don't think that's something that would've been so drastically changed going from 2e to 3e (and my memory of 2e rulebooks coincides with what I'm saying, though I don't have them handy to doublecheck).

1 round is still 6 seconds and 1 turns is still 60 seconds (10 rounds) in real time. Only in-game time is compressed. What that means is not how fast combat progresses (that's real time) but how fast the game's calendar/clock progresses (faster than real time). This matters for some spell durations (measured in hours rather than rounds/turns) as well as some quests.

AstroBryGuy

YanderePrincess said:

I'm coming into this discussion extremely late, but isn't a round 6 seconds and a turn (10 rounds) 1 minute in PnP AD&D? I know that's what it is in 3e and onward, and I don't think that's something that would've been so drastically changed going from 2e to 3e (and my memory of 2e rulebooks coincides with what I'm saying, though I don't have them handy to doublecheck).

In AD&D 2e PnP rules, a round is one minute and a turn is 10 minutes.

Grond0

It's sort of covered above, but is a bit confusing, so to summarise:
- in 2e P&P a round is one minute and a turn is 10 minutes.
- in converting those rules to the game, Bioware made the game clock (running at the standard 30 frames per second) run 10 times as fast as real time. Hence a minute of game time will pass in 6 seconds of real time (which is why people talk about a round lasting 6 seconds).
- most measurements of time within Baldur's Gate use game time. Thus, for instance, a spell lasting 6 rounds would last for 36 seconds of real time all other things being equal (which of course they may not be, as you could both change the 30 fps to make game time progress faster or slower than normal and pause the game to freeze game time as long and as often as you want).
- there are a few measurements of time that do use real time, e.g. some quest triggers are set up like that to prevent you being able to progress to the next stage of the quest just by resting a few times.

YanderePrincess

I find that really hard to believe, considering that from 3e onward, a round is 6 seconds and a turn is 1 minute, and there seems to be no actual difference in in-game time fragmentation between 2e and 3e from having played both. Can you cite an actual source on this?

AstroBryGuy

Odd addendum to @Grond0's excellent summary: Bioware made a round 6 seconds, but a minute only 5 seconds. So, in PnP, 1 turn = 10 minutes, but in BG 1 turn = 12 minutes.

Grond0

Players Handbook for 2nd edition states the length of a round in lots of places, e.g.:
The Combat Round
If an encounter escalates into a combat situation, the time scale of the game automatically goes to rounds (also called melee rounds or combat rounds). Rounds are used to measure the actions of characters in combat (or other intensive actions in which time is important). A round is approximately one minute long. Ten combat rounds equal a turn (or, put another way, a turn equals 10 minutes of game time). This is particularly important to remember for spells that last for turns, rather than rounds. But these are just approximations--precise time measurements are impossible to make in combat. An action that might be ridiculously easy under normal circumstances could become an undertaking of truly heroic scale when attempted in the middle of a furious, chaotic battle.

or
What You Can Do in One Round
Whatever the precise length of a combat round, a character can accomplish only one basic action in that round, be it making an attack, casting a spell, drinking a potion, or tending to a fallen comrade. The basic action, however, may involve several lesser actions. When making an attack, a character is likely to close with his opponent, circle for an opening, feint here, jab there, block a thrust, leap back, and perhaps finally make a telling blow. A spellcaster may fumble for his components, dodge an attacker, mentally review the steps of the spell, intone the spell, and then move to safety when it is all done. It has already been shown what drinking a potion might entail. All of these things might happen in a bit less than a minute or a bit more, but the standard is one minute and one action to the round.

lroumen

So how long is an in game hour then in turns or rounds?

Grond0

@Iroumen game time in P&P is:
1 round = 1 minute
10 rounds = 10 minutes = 1 turn
60 rounds = 6 turns = 1 hour

@AstroBryGuy noted above that the way Bioware compressed that into the game was slightly odd. I don't know if that's correct or not (though I have seen it referred to elsewhere), but assuming it is correct that would mean the relationships within BG are:
1 round = 1.2 minutes game time = 6 seconds real time
10 rounds = 1 turn game time = 12 minutes game time = 60 seconds real time
60 rounds = 1.2 hours game time = 360 seconds real time

lroumen

I see. I always understood that 1 hour was 10 turns. Seems strange to see a 6 there again.

islandking

1 round = 6 seconds realtime
1 turn = 10 rounds = 60 seconds realtime
1 hour in-game = 5 Turns = 50 rounds = 300 seconds realtime
1 day in-game = 24 Hour = 120 turns = 1200 rounds = 7200 seconds realtime