First of all, I don't think anyone should be shamed for confusing D&D as a setting with Forgotten Realms, specially when the "default" D&D setting (which may still be Greyhawk, I'm not sure) is similar enough to FR to warrant confusion for a newcomer.
Second, what most people understand as "medieval fantasy" is exactly what most people associate D&D with: worlds in which the level of technological advancement is similar to the period our own history describes as the middle-ages. By that, I mean it possesses elements that most people identify with that period: feudal societies, sword-wielding knights, etc. Many monsters that are real in D&D games are largely inspired by superstition and tales from that time.
So yes, D&D settings draw from many different historical periods and mythologies. But one shouldn't deny the heavy association the game has with the whole sword & sorcery genre in both tropes and aesthetic.
In other words: some of you guys should really dial down on the pedantic hair splitting. You sound like those metal fans who get prickly because someone's dared to gloss over the differences between Doom Metal and Death Metal by calling both Heavy Metal.
@Kilivitz I am pretty sure this "D&D is not a setting" was not meant to be pedantic, just a piece of information, it was just a line and a half. And the rest of the post meant to answer the "medieval setting" thing. I'd assume there was nothing aggressive in this post.
The rest of the post was a snappy showoff of knowledge that ignores the fact that the general impression the public has of D&D is of a game of swords & sorcery/medieval fantasy stories.
Pointing out exactly how that is not entirely accurate is irrelevant to the OP's complaints considering that no matter what type of fantasy the Forgotten Realms are, it's most certainly not our reality and it's the callbacks to it that bother him so much.
And calling out his mistake in saying BG happens in a medieval type of setting does not invalidate the rest of his argument. Hence why I have accused Archaos and Fardragon of splitting hairs.
EDIT: I'm not trying to pick a fight in here. I just find this particular attitude more likely to shut off rather than promote debate. People shouldn't feel unwelcome for voicing their opinions respectfully.
I like splitting hairs. It's pretty much the only way I can cover my shiny head.
But the point is valid. "Swords and Sorcery" is an accurate description, but "medieval" is false and misleading. It gives a false impression of the FR setting, but perhaps more seriously, it gives a false impression of the historical period from the 5th to 15th century. As a teacher, it would unprofessional not to try and correct academic error.
People think of BG as a "medieval fantasy" because it employs numerous medieval stereotypes (such as being a feudal society, with hovels and castles, with armoured warriors fighting with swords, and so on), and mixes in various fantasy elements commonly (although not always accurately) assumed to be medieval lore (such as magic, some of the monster types, etc.)
A lot of other elements suggest slightly more modernity, as one might imagine if a medieval-style society had persisted a while longer ... which it really did in (for example) Japan. However, it's still fair to call it "medieval fantasy" because of all the medieval tropes, even though it might be fictionally-late medieval.
[Note to @elminster - the sewers aren't a decisive argument against the antiquity of the flavour of the setting. For example, IRL, the ancient Romans built quite effective sewers in some towns, even though RL medievals generally didn't.]
[Note to @elminster - the sewers aren't a decisive argument against the antiquity of the flavour of the setting. For example, IRL, the ancient Romans built quite effective sewers in some towns, even though RL medievals generally didn't.]
Yea but even then they are way more like industrial age sewers than what you would have found in Rome or the medieval ages.
In the fantasy setting mages could disintegrate dump and trash with magic. So, why sewers? I think sewers are kind an escape route from the city, home for some mage weirdos and liches or the portals to another planes (also set by a mage weirdos.) Furthermore, sewers are nice touch to level design for the game. So, they are not in the game just to have modern city elements in a fantasy game but to add some underground escapism.
...What? Why do you think there isn't? D&D is a very medieval scenario with magic and monsters.
Nope.
For starters, DnD is not a setting. Forgotten Realms is a setting. DnD can be played with Planescape, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Eberron, Greyhawk etc.
Kara-tur has influences of Ancient China and Feudal Japan. Chult has dinosaurs. Mulhorand is basically Ancient Egypt, with the Egyptian pantheon and pharaohs. Calimshan is Arabic. Chessenta is basically Ancient Greece. Lantan is steam-punkish with flying ships. The Frozen North is Norse Viking era complete with Frost Giants.
No these aren't direct equivalents but it's influenced from various historical periods from various continents and places.
Saying FR is medieval with magic and monsters, is saying Star Wars is real life in the future with lightsabers.
Let's call it "post-Iron Age", if you want to say that other cultures didn't had a medieval age.
Feudal Japan is in the post-Iron Age. Viking Age is in the post-Iron Age. "Arabic" is not an age. It's an entire culture of Earth, our planet. And Calimshan is based in Arabic in the post-Iron Age.
A guy named Gengis Khan, in Mongolia, conquered the Jin Kingdom (today known as China), wich Kara-Tur is much more based than Ancient China. And, guess what. Gengis Khan lived in the post-Iron Age.
Forgotten Realms is a fantasy world that is based in the post-Iron Age. It is based in Middle-Earth. Don't you know D&D came from a system called "Chainmail", that was made for medieval war games? And that "Magic" was an opitional rule added later?
Sure, you can also play ancient times, Greek Mythology, Ancient Rome or Ancient Egypt style with D&D, but that would be an altered version of the game, since you'd have to recede to the Bronze Age. You can also play spelljammer crazy setting in space if it suits your taste. You can even play a Teletubbies game with D&D rules. But core and classic D&D is essentially in a very post-Iron Age. Medieval Age, if it's based in Europe in the post-Iron Age, as it is Faerun. Of course, you add magic and monsters to this... But you have to understand you're playing in medieval times to understand the common people and the society in the setting you're playing.
Even Baldur's Gate and Athkatla aren't very medieval. For instance you wouldn't expect sewer systems that advanced (with metal piping and valves) in medieval times. Same with the railway cars/tracks in the mines. Also the streets would be a lot more disgusting if it were emulating medieval times
That's why it is called "Forgotten Realms". The kingdoms and city-estates of Faerun that we know are in the post-Iron Age. But there existed countless kingdoms and realms in Abeir-Toril before the days of Cormyr, Baldur's Gate or Waterdeep. Waterdeep was build on an ancient and more advanced city, that already had those sewers systems. That's why some cities have sewers.
Of course magic and monsters changes a lot in the life of the people. But, really. If you're going to play a nerd, a businessman or a rock star in Forgotten Realms, you're playing it wrong.
That's why it is called "Forgotten Realms". The kingdoms and city-estates of Faerun that we know are in the Iron Age. But there existed countless kingdoms and realms in Abeir-Toril before the days of Cormyr, Baldur's Gate or Waterdeep. Waterdeep was build on an ancient and more advanced city, that already had those sewers systems. That's why some cities have sewers.
Well, I'll have to check out some of the waterdeep books but in the case of Baldur's Gate and Athkatla I'm not certain that holds up (Baldur's Gate obviously in 1368 DR had been built up overtop of older human settlements, though nothing that was more advanced as far as I know).
That being said if anyone is interested Ed Greenwood actually even wade in on this topic here.
I wouldn't say you're playing it wrong because I believe the only way to determine right and wrong in a game of imagination is whether you are having fun or not. Every player (and to an extent, every group) will have its own idea of what is and isn't fun.
The BG series seem to have been conceived as a middle of the road approach regarding serious and lighthearted. The plot goes through some dark stuff (murder, evil deities, war, slavery) but there's no shortage of comic relief. Pop references, modernisms and the occasional fourth-wall/immersion breaking are part of the package.
Whether that's excessive or not is the point of this discussion, I suppose, though I suspect the only definite answer is that it depends on your tastes. I personally think this sort of humor in the BG saga is hit and miss. Mostly good with a few jokes that fall flat.
You can't really call it Iron Age, since you need high quality steel to manufacture full plate armour and the rails that are used for the mine carts. The brick built buildings, not just in cities, but in small towns like Beragost are also more suggestive of the Renaissance (or Roman). We also have mass produced print books, Arts and Crafts style furniture, a 19th century design of lighthouse to go with the 19th century sewers, elaborate locks etc. All apparently located in North America, if you judge by the terrain, flora, and fauna.
The reason the Forgotten Realms does not have automatic firearms, automobiles, mobile phones and the internet is not because they haven't been invented - they have. However, due to differing physical laws, they don't work reliably - magic is used instead because it is more reliable.
There is fantasy that draws heavily on History: Game of Thrones and Ladyhawke are the only ones that come to mind at the moment (historical drama with fantasy elements is more common). In the Lord of the Rings, only Rohan draws heavily on real history (and the Shire which is based on early 20th Century England of Tolkien's childhood). Even the Arthurian Romances of the late medieval period, and many of Shakespeare's plays (Shakespeare himself was Renaissance, not medieval) , are set in a fantasy land that never existed.
The reason the Forgotten Realms does not have automatic firearms, automobiles, mobile phones and the internet is not because they haven't been invented - they have. However, due to differing physical laws, they don't work reliably - magic is used instead because it is more reliable.
Well, I still walk in BG2, I do not use magic, and I could really use a car to make those WK-Athkathla journeys. And a phone to tell Aran "Hey I have dealt with Jaylos and Caehan but don't want to walk through that superlong corridor of yours to tell you, can I go to the graveyard now?". As for firearms, a gun would also work better than a bow, I guess.
I'd not say they have been invented, I'd rather say they have not been invented, because they were much less of a necessity than in our world. Sewers however are as much needed as in our world, since not everyone can afford magical poop-destroying toilets.
The reason the Forgotten Realms does not have automatic firearms, automobiles, mobile phones and the internet is not because they haven't been invented - they have. However, due to differing physical laws, they don't work reliably - magic is used instead because it is more reliable.
...We definitively aren't talking about the same setting.
Geez. If it works for you, fine. But I'm not playing that. My interest is in core Sword & Sorcerer, like D&D used to be in TSR times. This logic of "magic" instead of "technology" is a tought so flat for me, that I'd prefere "no magic" instead. No. Magic is mysticism, not science. It's suposed to be scarse and feared. Society is not supposed to depends on it for mundane tasks. No. It has to be something special.
"We don't have doctors because we have Priests". That sucks in so many layers. Clerics are suposed to be as scarse as Saints. And you really play like if your child is sick, you're going to bring him for the local Lv. 6 Cleric?
The "Game of Thrones" show is so special because it brings back that old feeling of the classic days of consistent Sword & Sorcerer worlds, not infected by World of Warcraft logic. Yeah, modernisms suck in D&D.
It's in the FR source books (mine is ether 2nd edition or 3.0). Technology, such as gunpowder weapons, is known, but simply doesn't work consistently. Smokepowder can explode at random, or just become completely inert. You could build a car, but sometimes it would work, and sometimes it wouldn't - you would be better off with a horse (unless you where a gnome). Your mobile phone wouldn't be very useful if there was a chance the electricity would turn into an elemental instead of flowing around the circuit. Different laws of Physics.
And the Forgotten Realms is not a "low magic" setting. Petty much everyone is familiar with magic, even if they don't practice it, most towns have low level clerics, and maybe a potion maker or two. For the most part magic is not usually particularly feared (with the exception of certain regions, such as Amn). There are even some "high magic" regions (defined as magic being commonly used for mundane tasks).
It is quite possible to play Dungeons and Dragons in a low magic pseudo historical setting, but the Forgotten Realms isn't one, and never has been.
Sewers however are as much needed as in our world, since not everyone can afford magical poop-destroying toilets.
London managed without sewers (or magical toilets) up until 1859. That's a very long time after the end of the Medieval period. Believing otherwise is an illustration of why assuming DnD is in some way historical is harmful to the intellect.
It's in the FR source books (mine is ether 2nd edition or 3.0). Technology, such as gunpowder weapons, is known, but simply doesn't work consistently. Smokepowder can explode at random, or just become completely inert. You could build a car, but sometimes it would work, and sometimes it wouldn't - you would be better off with a horse (unless you where a gnome). Your mobile phone wouldn't be very useful if there was a chance the electricity would turn into an elemental instead of flowing around the circuit. Different laws of Physics.
And the Forgotten Realms is not a "low magic" setting. Petty much everyone is familiar with magic, even if they don't practice it, most towns have low level clerics, and maybe a potion maker or two. For the most part magic is not usually particularly feared (with the exception of certain regions, such as Amn). There are even some "high magic" regions (defined as magic being commonly used for mundane tasks).
It is quite possible to play Dungeons and Dragons in a low magic pseudo historical setting, but the Forgotten Realms isn't one, and never has been.
I had never heard this before, but if you show me where it says that I'll accept it as canon, but that's SOOO LAME. What the hell kind of idiot excuse is that? "I can have dues ex sewers so the cities don't stink and you can easily escape the guard for my story, but no one will use guns because... Uh... They don't work. Yeah, the just don't work right." That doesn't make any sense. If you want a setting with sewers but without guns, just say guns weren't invented yet. Rome had impressive sewer/aqueduct systems, but no guns. Having guns just "not work" is stupid. If guns and cars randomly break down all the time, why don't sewers randomly collapse. I know it's fantasy but you could at least pretend to have a little sense of logical continuity. That's just bad world building.
Well, all high fantasy is a mixture of pseudo-medieval.
You need to read more high fantasy.
? If all this that we're describing is not both high fantasy and pseudo-medieval then what is high fantasy? "Medieval Europe but with magic and dragons and elves" is excatly what I would call "pseudo-medieval" and also excatly what I would call "high fantasy"
I had never heard this before, but if you show me where it says that I'll accept it as canon, but that's SOOO LAME. What the hell kind of idiot excuse is that? "I can have dues ex sewers so the cities don't stink and you can easily escape the guard for my story, but no one will use guns because... Uh... They don't work. Yeah, the just don't work right." That doesn't make any sense. If you want a setting with sewers but without guns, just say guns weren't invented yet. Rome had impressive sewer/aqueduct systems, but no guns. Having guns just "not work" is stupid. If guns and cars randomly break down all the time, why don't sewers randomly collapse. I know it's fantasy but you could at least pretend to have a little sense of logical continuity. That's just bad world building.
Early guns sucking is nothing special, they sucked in roundworld too. The difference is that Realms is a super high magic setting. High level characters, including mages, abound all over the place. It's so high magic that not only are lesser magic items everywhere, powerful magical artifacts so common they're actually sold in stores by merchants (that's not just a mechanic for the computer games).
Technology grows to fill a niche. For roundworld, cannons filled a niche for destroying fortifications and formations, guns filled a niche for being easier to train people in than bows. Until numerous, constant refinements were implemented in their design, they were only slightly less likely to blow up the user than pierce that rampaging knight in full plate.
The Forgotten Realms could, theoretically, pour the same effort into improving guns and cannons until they have a weapon that finally matches what even low level mages can do.
By that same logic, roundworld could have invested in free energy and we'd all have our ethanol-fuelled jetpacks already, but cars are easier, get the job done, and we already have them, so why make jetpacks?
A mage is pretty much a walking artillery piece. They can tear into formations, blow holes in stone, and dominate umber hulks to chew their way into anything smaller, and they can export that ability onto untrained non-mages, so the mage doesn't even need to come. "Here, Archer guy, have a hundred arrows of detonation, I'm too busy rolling time back and forth in the palms of my hand". Now you have one mobile, well-defended guy who can hide in the trees and let off a shot with his enchanted bow of sniping +5 to hit the castle six miles away.
This is why high magic settings rarely develop guns. There's no need to create something like a cannon when you have far more mobile, more reliable, and less resource intensive options at hand, and there's no reason to invent a smaller, more portable version when you can turn simple slings into face exploding doom bullets. Why invent planes if you have wings?
Sorry I must insist on reporting your post for your character is called Abdel and that certainly acknowledges Abdel as a cannon character coming from such an important guy on the forum
It's in the FR source books (mine is ether 2nd edition or 3.0). Technology, such as gunpowder weapons, is known, but simply doesn't work consistently. Smokepowder can explode at random, or just become completely inert. You could build a car, but sometimes it would work, and sometimes it wouldn't - you would be better off with a horse (unless you where a gnome). Your mobile phone wouldn't be very useful if there was a chance the electricity would turn into an elemental instead of flowing around the circuit. Different laws of Physics.
And the Forgotten Realms is not a "low magic" setting. Petty much everyone is familiar with magic, even if they don't practice it, most towns have low level clerics, and maybe a potion maker or two. For the most part magic is not usually particularly feared (with the exception of certain regions, such as Amn). There are even some "high magic" regions (defined as magic being commonly used for mundane tasks).
It is quite possible to play Dungeons and Dragons in a low magic pseudo historical setting, but the Forgotten Realms isn't one, and never has been.
I had never heard this before, but if you show me where it says that I'll accept it as canon, but that's SOOO LAME. What the hell kind of idiot excuse is that? "I can have dues ex sewers so the cities don't stink and you can easily escape the guard for my story, but no one will use guns because... Uh... They don't work. Yeah, the just don't work right." That doesn't make any sense. If you want a setting with sewers but without guns, just say guns weren't invented yet. Rome had impressive sewer/aqueduct systems, but no guns. Having guns just "not work" is stupid. If guns and cars randomly break down all the time, why don't sewers randomly collapse. I know it's fantasy but you could at least pretend to have a little sense of logical continuity. That's just bad world building.
Well, all high fantasy is a mixture of pseudo-medieval.
You need to read more high fantasy.
Think of it this way.
Small fire arms were around during the Crusades, but they were extremely inaccurate and took a long time to load. Even something more modern like muskets and cannons were slow to load and fire if not a tad more accurate.
It wasnt till the 1800's that fire arms were becoming effective with the revolver.
Now compare that to a forgotten realm's wand of magic missile. It was preloaded with a set amount of charges, always hit, didn't break down till it was exhausted of charges and it could be used by magic users and rogues (and in 3.5 anyone).
No one, besides worshippers of Gond, would waste their time attempting to perfect a technology that was already surpassed by other means. It would be like attempting to make a VHS tape hold more video today against streaming video. There would be no market for it.
Cars also need paved roads. Horses (of footing it) was and still easier to travel rugged terrain. It is why the Man Tracker uses a horse and not a jeep. It also wasnt till after WW1 that vehicles started to doninate the road, and that was only after Ford invented a way to mass produce them cheaply.
It's in the FR source books (mine is ether 2nd edition or 3.0). Technology, such as gunpowder weapons, is known, but simply doesn't work consistently. Smokepowder can explode at random, or just become completely inert. You could build a car, but sometimes it would work, and sometimes it wouldn't - you would be better off with a horse (unless you where a gnome). Your mobile phone wouldn't be very useful if there was a chance the electricity would turn into an elemental instead of flowing around the circuit. Different laws of Physics.
And the Forgotten Realms is not a "low magic" setting. Petty much everyone is familiar with magic, even if they don't practice it, most towns have low level clerics, and maybe a potion maker or two. For the most part magic is not usually particularly feared (with the exception of certain regions, such as Amn). There are even some "high magic" regions (defined as magic being commonly used for mundane tasks).
It is quite possible to play Dungeons and Dragons in a low magic pseudo historical setting, but the Forgotten Realms isn't one, and never has been.
I had never heard this before, but if you show me where it says that I'll accept it as canon, but that's SOOO LAME. What the hell kind of idiot excuse is that? "I can have dues ex sewers so the cities don't stink and you can easily escape the guard for my story, but no one will use guns because... Uh... They don't work. Yeah, the just don't work right." That doesn't make any sense. If you want a setting with sewers but without guns, just say guns weren't invented yet. Rome had impressive sewer/aqueduct systems, but no guns. Having guns just "not work" is stupid. If guns and cars randomly break down all the time, why don't sewers randomly collapse. I know it's fantasy but you could at least pretend to have a little sense of logical continuity. That's just bad world building.
Well, all high fantasy is a mixture of pseudo-medieval.
You need to read more high fantasy.
Think of it this way.
Small fire arms were around during the Crusades, but they were extremely inaccurate and took a long time to load. Even something more modern like muskets and cannons were slow to load and fire if not a tad more accurate.
It wasnt till the 1800's that fire arms were becoming effective with the revolver.
Now compare that to a forgotten realm's wand of magic missile. It was preloaded with a set amount of charges, always hit, didn't break down till it was exhausted of charges and it could be used by magic users and rogues (and in 3.5 anyone).
No one, besides worshippers of Gond, would waste their time attempting to perfect a technology that was already surpassed by other means. It would be like attempting to make a VHS tape hold more video today against streaming video. There would be no market for it.
Cars also need paved roads. Horses (of footing it) was and still easier to travel rugged terrain. It is why the Man Tracker uses a horse and not a jeep. It also wasnt till after WW1 that vehicles started to doninate the road, and that was only after Ford invented a way to mass produce them cheaply.
Thank god each one of us can have our own world while playing D&D, right? I just hope Siege of Dragonspear keep in the mood of BG1 and Shadows of Amn, since your version with cars and pistols would not be as attractive for me. Sorry
It's in the FR source books (mine is ether 2nd edition or 3.0). Technology, such as gunpowder weapons, is known, but simply doesn't work consistently. Smokepowder can explode at random, or just become completely inert. You could build a car, but sometimes it would work, and sometimes it wouldn't - you would be better off with a horse (unless you where a gnome). Your mobile phone wouldn't be very useful if there was a chance the electricity would turn into an elemental instead of flowing around the circuit. Different laws of Physics.
And the Forgotten Realms is not a "low magic" setting. Petty much everyone is familiar with magic, even if they don't practice it, most towns have low level clerics, and maybe a potion maker or two. For the most part magic is not usually particularly feared (with the exception of certain regions, such as Amn). There are even some "high magic" regions (defined as magic being commonly used for mundane tasks).
It is quite possible to play Dungeons and Dragons in a low magic pseudo historical setting, but the Forgotten Realms isn't one, and never has been.
I had never heard this before, but if you show me where it says that I'll accept it as canon, but that's SOOO LAME. What the hell kind of idiot excuse is that? "I can have dues ex sewers so the cities don't stink and you can easily escape the guard for my story, but no one will use guns because... Uh... They don't work. Yeah, the just don't work right." That doesn't make any sense. If you want a setting with sewers but without guns, just say guns weren't invented yet. Rome had impressive sewer/aqueduct systems, but no guns. Having guns just "not work" is stupid. If guns and cars randomly break down all the time, why don't sewers randomly collapse. I know it's fantasy but you could at least pretend to have a little sense of logical continuity. That's just bad world building.
Well, all high fantasy is a mixture of pseudo-medieval.
You need to read more high fantasy.
Think of it this way.
Small fire arms were around during the Crusades, but they were extremely inaccurate and took a long time to load. Even something more modern like muskets and cannons were slow to load and fire if not a tad more accurate.
It wasnt till the 1800's that fire arms were becoming effective with the revolver.
This is untrue. Firearms where not around in the crusades. Gunpowder was, and the Chinese used "fire lances" but serviceable weapons that could legitametly be called a firearm did not appear until the 14th century, and were not in reasonable military use until the 15the century. The 5th crusade ended in 1221, long before realistic firearms were even dreamed of. The firearm was in widespread use by the 17th century, and used in the conquest of the new world very effectively(with the help of small pox & freinds)
Now that I've got that out of the way I can get to the point.
I had never heard this before, but if you show me where it says that I'll accept it as canon, but that's SOOO LAME. What the hell kind of idiot excuse is that? "I can have dues ex sewers so the cities don't stink and you can easily escape the guard for my story, but no one will use guns because... Uh... They don't work. Yeah, the just don't work right." That doesn't make any sense. If you want a setting with sewers but without guns, just say guns weren't invented yet. Rome had impressive sewer/aqueduct systems, but no guns. Having guns just "not work" is stupid. If guns and cars randomly break down all the time, why don't sewers randomly collapse. I know it's fantasy but you could at least pretend to have a little sense of logical continuity. That's just bad world building.
Early guns sucking is nothing special, they sucked in roundworld too. The difference is that Realms is a super high magic setting. High level characters, including mages, abound all over the place. It's so high magic that not only are lesser magic items everywhere, powerful magical artifacts so common they're actually sold in stores by merchants (that's not just a mechanic for the computer games).
Technology grows to fill a niche. For roundworld, cannons filled a niche for destroying fortifications and formations, guns filled a niche for being easier to train people in than bows. Until numerous, constant refinements were implemented in their design, they were only slightly less likely to blow up the user than pierce that rampaging knight in full plate.
The Forgotten Realms could, theoretically, pour the same effort into improving guns and cannons until they have a weapon that finally matches what even low level mages can do.
By that same logic, roundworld could have invested in free energy and we'd all have our ethanol-fuelled jetpacks already, but cars are easier, get the job done, and we already have them, so why make jetpacks?
A mage is pretty much a walking artillery piece. They can tear into formations, blow holes in stone, and dominate umber hulks to chew their way into anything smaller, and they can export that ability onto untrained non-mages, so the mage doesn't even need to come. "Here, Archer guy, have a hundred arrows of detonation, I'm too busy rolling time back and forth in the palms of my hand". Now you have one mobile, well-defended guy who can hide in the trees and let off a shot with his enchanted bow of sniping +5 to hit the castle six miles away.
This is why high magic settings rarely develop guns. There's no need to create something like a cannon when you have far more mobile, more reliable, and less resource intensive options at hand, and there's no reason to invent a smaller, more portable version when you can turn simple slings into face exploding doom bullets. Why invent planes if you have wings?
I wasn't saying early matchlocks where super easy to use and worked all the time. Fardragon said that its stated in the source material that some technology simply doesn't work. You could build a car, but it wouldn't work. I was just saying that's bad logic. What makes siege weapons and sewers work but not guns or whatever other technology you don't feel like putting in your setting. There's no point. Just say it hasn't been invented yet. I'm not saying there should be guns in FR. I'm just saying that their excuse for not having them is bad.
My main issue here is the idea that FR is not a medieval setting because in has the stray anachronism. It is clearly a pseudo-medieval or "high fantasy" setting. People fight with swords, wear chainmail, have Knights and castles and a feudal system. That is clearly describing the medial era. Adding magic and sewers does not mean it somehow isn't medieval anymore. It clearly is. Obviously its not a historical accurate representation of 13th century Europe, and no on is trying to say it is. If it was, it would be called "13th century Europe" instead of "forgotten realms." I'm not sure where (or why)the idea that FR is not medieval is coming from.
I'm not sure where (or why)the idea that FR is not medieval is coming from.
From what I could gather, FR is not medieval because it has stayed medieval due to magic making technological advancement obsolete even though it appears that technological advancement was present but nobody bothered using the stuff that was discovered and/or invented because magic.
This stuff about "guns won't work" makes me think of "The Guns of Avalon" in Roger Zelazny's Amber series. Surely I'm not the only one to whom this parallel has occurred?
In Amber, the phenomenon is quite tidily explained, but it sounds as if the explanation in FR source material (which I haven't read) is merely poor-quality hand-waving.
This conversation has somewhat spiraled out of control.. just my 2cents to the original topic:
It doesn't matter what the "setting" of the game is, in any pen and paper setting, you're playing with people informed by modern experiences in a modern time. You can pretend all you want to be playing "appropriate" to the time represented in the game, but I've never once played a pen and paper game without players heavily referencing from their own modern experiences within the game. And not even in a way that was disruptive to roleplay in the slightest. It's just part of playing with people who, go figure, live in a modern world and draw their experiences from that.
To me, Baldur's Gate 2 was always a game meant to emulate a good tabletop roleplaying experience in video game form. The npcs have always been stand ins for the players around the table. Each of the original BG2 npcs, while being well drawn characters in their own right, were still filled with anachronisms and references to modern times. And the forgotten realms setting (or D&D whatever) has always been a hodgepodge of pulp fantasy aesthetics informed by modern sensibilities. It's not trying to emulate any approximate "time and place" but just referencing a style and aesthetic of pulp fantasy literature, comics, tv/movies, and video games. It certainly has its own ruleset for what is appropriate to the setting, but that ruleset exists outside of any actual historical context.
With that in mind, I don't think anything beamdog has done has really been out of the spirit of the original game. And I don't expect Siege of Dragonspear to deviate far from that either.
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Second, what most people understand as "medieval fantasy" is exactly what most people associate D&D with: worlds in which the level of technological advancement is similar to the period our own history describes as the middle-ages. By that, I mean it possesses elements that most people identify with that period: feudal societies, sword-wielding knights, etc. Many monsters that are real in D&D games are largely inspired by superstition and tales from that time.
So yes, D&D settings draw from many different historical periods and mythologies. But one shouldn't deny the heavy association the game has with the whole sword & sorcery genre in both tropes and aesthetic.
In other words: some of you guys should really dial down on the pedantic hair splitting. You sound like those metal fans who get prickly because someone's dared to gloss over the differences between Doom Metal and Death Metal by calling both Heavy Metal.
Pointing out exactly how that is not entirely accurate is irrelevant to the OP's complaints considering that no matter what type of fantasy the Forgotten Realms are, it's most certainly not our reality and it's the callbacks to it that bother him so much.
And calling out his mistake in saying BG happens in a medieval type of setting does not invalidate the rest of his argument. Hence why I have accused Archaos and Fardragon of splitting hairs.
EDIT: I'm not trying to pick a fight in here. I just find this particular attitude more likely to shut off rather than promote debate. People shouldn't feel unwelcome for voicing their opinions respectfully.
But the point is valid. "Swords and Sorcery" is an accurate description, but "medieval" is false and misleading. It gives a false impression of the FR setting, but perhaps more seriously, it gives a false impression of the historical period from the 5th to 15th century. As a teacher, it would unprofessional not to try and correct academic error.
A lot of other elements suggest slightly more modernity, as one might imagine if a medieval-style society had persisted a while longer ... which it really did in (for example) Japan. However, it's still fair to call it "medieval fantasy" because of all the medieval tropes, even though it might be fictionally-late medieval.
[Note to @elminster - the sewers aren't a decisive argument against the antiquity of the flavour of the setting. For example, IRL, the ancient Romans built quite effective sewers in some towns, even though RL medievals generally didn't.]
From AD&D Handbook 2e: - Full Plate: "This is the impressive, high Gothic-style armor of the Late Middle Ages and Renaissance"
I think sewers are kind an escape route from the city, home for some mage weirdos and liches or the portals to another planes (also set by a mage weirdos.) Furthermore, sewers are nice touch to level design for the game.
So, they are not in the game just to have modern city elements in a fantasy game but to add some underground escapism.
Feudal Japan is in the post-Iron Age.
Viking Age is in the post-Iron Age.
"Arabic" is not an age. It's an entire culture of Earth, our planet. And Calimshan is based in Arabic in the post-Iron Age.
A guy named Gengis Khan, in Mongolia, conquered the Jin Kingdom (today known as China), wich Kara-Tur is much more based than Ancient China. And, guess what. Gengis Khan lived in the post-Iron Age.
Forgotten Realms is a fantasy world that is based in the post-Iron Age. It is based in Middle-Earth. Don't you know D&D came from a system called "Chainmail", that was made for medieval war games? And that "Magic" was an opitional rule added later?
Sure, you can also play ancient times, Greek Mythology, Ancient Rome or Ancient Egypt style with D&D, but that would be an altered version of the game, since you'd have to recede to the Bronze Age. You can also play spelljammer crazy setting in space if it suits your taste. You can even play a Teletubbies game with D&D rules. But core and classic D&D is essentially in a very post-Iron Age. Medieval Age, if it's based in Europe in the post-Iron Age, as it is Faerun. Of course, you add magic and monsters to this... But you have to understand you're playing in medieval times to understand the common people and the society in the setting you're playing. That's why it is called "Forgotten Realms". The kingdoms and city-estates of Faerun that we know are in the post-Iron Age. But there existed countless kingdoms and realms in Abeir-Toril before the days of Cormyr, Baldur's Gate or Waterdeep. Waterdeep was build on an ancient and more advanced city, that already had those sewers systems. That's why some cities have sewers.
Of course magic and monsters changes a lot in the life of the people. But, really. If you're going to play a nerd, a businessman or a rock star in Forgotten Realms, you're playing it wrong.
That being said if anyone is interested Ed Greenwood actually even wade in on this topic here.
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/lord-sewers
The BG series seem to have been conceived as a middle of the road approach regarding serious and lighthearted. The plot goes through some dark stuff (murder, evil deities, war, slavery) but there's no shortage of comic relief. Pop references, modernisms and the occasional fourth-wall/immersion breaking are part of the package.
Whether that's excessive or not is the point of this discussion, I suppose, though I suspect the only definite answer is that it depends on your tastes. I personally think this sort of humor in the BG saga is hit and miss. Mostly good with a few jokes that fall flat.
The reason the Forgotten Realms does not have automatic firearms, automobiles, mobile phones and the internet is not because they haven't been invented - they have. However, due to differing physical laws, they don't work reliably - magic is used instead because it is more reliable.
There is fantasy that draws heavily on History: Game of Thrones and Ladyhawke are the only ones that come to mind at the moment (historical drama with fantasy elements is more common). In the Lord of the Rings, only Rohan draws heavily on real history (and the Shire which is based on early 20th Century England of Tolkien's childhood). Even the Arthurian Romances of the late medieval period, and many of Shakespeare's plays (Shakespeare himself was Renaissance, not medieval) , are set in a fantasy land that never existed.
I'd not say they have been invented, I'd rather say they have not been invented, because they were much less of a necessity than in our world.
Sewers however are as much needed as in our world, since not everyone can afford magical poop-destroying toilets.
Geez. If it works for you, fine. But I'm not playing that. My interest is in core Sword & Sorcerer, like D&D used to be in TSR times. This logic of "magic" instead of "technology" is a tought so flat for me, that I'd prefere "no magic" instead. No. Magic is mysticism, not science. It's suposed to be scarse and feared. Society is not supposed to depends on it for mundane tasks. No. It has to be something special.
"We don't have doctors because we have Priests". That sucks in so many layers. Clerics are suposed to be as scarse as Saints. And you really play like if your child is sick, you're going to bring him for the local Lv. 6 Cleric?
The "Game of Thrones" show is so special because it brings back that old feeling of the classic days of consistent Sword & Sorcerer worlds, not infected by World of Warcraft logic. Yeah, modernisms suck in D&D.
And the Forgotten Realms is not a "low magic" setting. Petty much everyone is familiar with magic, even if they don't practice it, most towns have low level clerics, and maybe a potion maker or two. For the most part magic is not usually particularly feared (with the exception of certain regions, such as Amn). There are even some "high magic" regions (defined as magic being commonly used for mundane tasks).
It is quite possible to play Dungeons and Dragons in a low magic pseudo historical setting, but the Forgotten Realms isn't one, and never has been.
http://historum.com/ancient-history/27756-who-developed-idea-first-sewer-system.html
What the hell kind of idiot excuse is that? "I can have dues ex sewers so the cities don't stink and you can easily escape the guard for my story, but no one will use guns because... Uh... They don't work. Yeah, the just don't work right." That doesn't make any sense. If you want a setting with sewers but without guns, just say guns weren't invented yet. Rome had impressive sewer/aqueduct systems, but no guns. Having guns just "not work" is stupid. If guns and cars randomly break down all the time, why don't sewers randomly collapse. I know it's fantasy but you could at least pretend to have a little sense of logical continuity. That's just bad world building. ? If all this that we're describing is not both high fantasy and pseudo-medieval then what is high fantasy? "Medieval Europe but with magic and dragons and elves" is excatly what I would call "pseudo-medieval" and also excatly what I would call "high fantasy"
Technology grows to fill a niche. For roundworld, cannons filled a niche for destroying fortifications and formations, guns filled a niche for being easier to train people in than bows. Until numerous, constant refinements were implemented in their design, they were only slightly less likely to blow up the user than pierce that rampaging knight in full plate.
The Forgotten Realms could, theoretically, pour the same effort into improving guns and cannons until they have a weapon that finally matches what even low level mages can do.
By that same logic, roundworld could have invested in free energy and we'd all have our ethanol-fuelled jetpacks already, but cars are easier, get the job done, and we already have them, so why make jetpacks?
A mage is pretty much a walking artillery piece. They can tear into formations, blow holes in stone, and dominate umber hulks to chew their way into anything smaller, and they can export that ability onto untrained non-mages, so the mage doesn't even need to come. "Here, Archer guy, have a hundred arrows of detonation, I'm too busy rolling time back and forth in the palms of my hand". Now you have one mobile, well-defended guy who can hide in the trees and let off a shot with his enchanted bow of sniping +5 to hit the castle six miles away.
This is why high magic settings rarely develop guns. There's no need to create something like a cannon when you have far more mobile, more reliable, and less resource intensive options at hand, and there's no reason to invent a smaller, more portable version when you can turn simple slings into face exploding doom bullets. Why invent planes if you have wings?
The firearm was in widespread use by the 17th century, and used in the conquest of the new world very effectively(with the help of small pox & freinds)
Now that I've got that out of the way I can get to the point. I wasn't saying early matchlocks where super easy to use and worked all the time. Fardragon said that its stated in the source material that some technology simply doesn't work. You could build a car, but it wouldn't work. I was just saying that's bad logic. What makes siege weapons and sewers work but not guns or whatever other technology you don't feel like putting in your setting. There's no point. Just say it hasn't been invented yet.
I'm not saying there should be guns in FR. I'm just saying that their excuse for not having them is bad.
My main issue here is the idea that FR is not a medieval setting because in has the stray anachronism. It is clearly a pseudo-medieval or "high fantasy" setting. People fight with swords, wear chainmail, have Knights and castles and a feudal system. That is clearly describing the medial era. Adding magic and sewers does not mean it somehow isn't medieval anymore. It clearly is. Obviously its not a historical accurate representation of 13th century Europe, and no on is trying to say it is. If it was, it would be called "13th century Europe" instead of "forgotten realms." I'm not sure where (or why)the idea that FR is not medieval is coming from.
In Amber, the phenomenon is quite tidily explained, but it sounds as if the explanation in FR source material (which I haven't read) is merely poor-quality hand-waving.
It doesn't matter what the "setting" of the game is, in any pen and paper setting, you're playing with people informed by modern experiences in a modern time. You can pretend all you want to be playing "appropriate" to the time represented in the game, but I've never once played a pen and paper game without players heavily referencing from their own modern experiences within the game. And not even in a way that was disruptive to roleplay in the slightest. It's just part of playing with people who, go figure, live in a modern world and draw their experiences from that.
To me, Baldur's Gate 2 was always a game meant to emulate a good tabletop roleplaying experience in video game form. The npcs have always been stand ins for the players around the table. Each of the original BG2 npcs, while being well drawn characters in their own right, were still filled with anachronisms and references to modern times. And the forgotten realms setting (or D&D whatever) has always been a hodgepodge of pulp fantasy aesthetics informed by modern sensibilities. It's not trying to emulate any approximate "time and place" but just referencing a style and aesthetic of pulp fantasy literature, comics, tv/movies, and video games. It certainly has its own ruleset for what is appropriate to the setting, but that ruleset exists outside of any actual historical context.
With that in mind, I don't think anything beamdog has done has really been out of the spirit of the original game. And I don't expect Siege of Dragonspear to deviate far from that either.