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Please, no more Modernisms in Bg series!

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  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437

    Twenty said:

    That's true but I can't think of many careless anachronisms that are actually annoying other than maybe, "You rang?".

    I haven't seen "You rang?", but if it's in the game, that's an "Addams Family" reference. It's what Lurch always said first when summoned, and it was a running joke on the show.
    Could also be a reference to Bob Denver's character Maynard Krebs on "The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis". It was one of his catchphrases too.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356

    Twenty said:

    That's true but I can't think of many careless anachronisms that are actually annoying other than maybe, "You rang?".

    I haven't seen "You rang?", but if it's in the game, that's an "Addams Family" reference. It's what Lurch always said first when summoned, and it was a running joke on the show.
    Could also be a reference to Bob Denver's character Maynard Krebs on "The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis". It was one of his catchphrases too.
    Then that's another obscure and parochial cultural reference to a character I've never heard of, played by an actor I've never heard of, in a show I've never heard of. This time I can't even be bothered to look it up, but I guess it's another purely North American reference.

    At least in the case of the Addams Family possibility, that's a source fairly well-known in the rest of the world, so it's less of an exclusively-American in-joke.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511

    Twenty said:

    That's true but I can't think of many careless anachronisms that are actually annoying other than maybe, "You rang?".

    I haven't seen "You rang?", but if it's in the game, that's an "Addams Family" reference. It's what Lurch always said first when summoned, and it was a running joke on the show.
    Could also be a reference to Bob Denver's character Maynard Krebs on "The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis". It was one of his catchphrases too.
    Then that's another obscure and parochial cultural reference to a character I've never heard of, played by an actor I've never heard of, in a show I've never heard of. This time I can't even be bothered to look it up, but I guess it's another purely North American reference.

    At least in the case of the Addams Family possibility, that's a source fairly well-known in the rest of the world, so it's less of an exclusively-American in-joke.
    Quite. The Addams Family was rerun worldwide in the 60s and 70s. Pretty much everyone knew the catchphrase (and did the finger clicking) I've never heard of Maynard Krabs, but if he used the phrase then I'm pretty sure it was also a reference to the Addams Family.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    lroumen said:

    It's a generic butler trope to be honest. Nothing worth pin pointing to one particular occurrence where it was used.

    It wasn't "a generic butler trope" until the Addams Family made it one. It's impossible to ovestate just how massive that program was. The flat tone is a give away, as is the absence of sir/maam/m'lord.

    Conversly "yus m'lady" is a Thunderbirds reference.
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    edited January 2016
    Fardragon said:

    Twenty said:

    That's true but I can't think of many careless anachronisms that are actually annoying other than maybe, "You rang?".

    I haven't seen "You rang?", but if it's in the game, that's an "Addams Family" reference. It's what Lurch always said first when summoned, and it was a running joke on the show.
    Could also be a reference to Bob Denver's character Maynard Krebs on "The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis". It was one of his catchphrases too.
    Then that's another obscure and parochial cultural reference to a character I've never heard of, played by an actor I've never heard of, in a show I've never heard of. This time I can't even be bothered to look it up, but I guess it's another purely North American reference.

    At least in the case of the Addams Family possibility, that's a source fairly well-known in the rest of the world, so it's less of an exclusively-American in-joke.
    Quite. The Addams Family was rerun worldwide in the 60s and 70s. Pretty much everyone knew the catchphrase (and did the finger clicking) I've never heard of Maynard Krabs, but if he used the phrase then I'm pretty sure it was also a reference to the Addams Family.
    Since "Dobie Gillis" ran from 1959 to 1963, it would be really hard for Maynard Krebs to be referencing "Addams Family", which premiered in 1964. If anything, it was the other way around.

    EDIT: I doubt Lurch is referencing Maynard, as the characters a nothing alike (monster butler vs. jazz-loving beatnik), but the Addams Family writers would certainly have been aware of the character since "Dobie Gillis" was a Top 30 show in the Neilsen ratings at the time Addams Family was in development.
    Post edited by AstroBryGuy on
  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,768

    Then that's another obscure and parochial cultural reference to a character I've never heard of, played by an actor I've never heard of, in a show I've never heard of. This time I can't even be bothered to look it up, but I guess it's another purely North American reference.

    That actor you've never heard of played Gilligan on Gilligan's Island.
  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,603
    OK, I'll fall for it. I've never heard of Gilligan's Island (and I'd never heard of the Addams Family either before the film came out).
    Before anyone asks, I've just turned 57.
  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,603
    I have to ask. What sort of adventures happened to them on that island?
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,538
    They always get a way to escape and then gilligan messes it up.

    Wrt you rang, benefit of the doubt then but not convinced
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    BillyYank said:

    That actor you've never heard of played Gilligan on Gilligan's Island.

    And in that case, it's a show I've vaguely heard of (but only because other people online have mentioned it) but have never seen and know nothing about. I had no idea there was a character actually called "Gilligan" in it, so he's still a character I've never heard of played by an actor I've never heard of. (Until just now, obviously.)
  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,768
    lroumen said:

    They always get a way to escape and then gilligan messes it up.

    Wrt you rang, benefit of the doubt then but not convinced

    There were two basic plots, Gilligan messes up the escape, and Gilligan saves them all. This left them in a Kafka-esque dilemma. They could never get off the island as long as Gilligan was alive, but if they killed him, they would all die in the next disaster. So obviously, they had all died in the storm and the island was their private hell.

    Or maybe I'm overthinking this.... nah.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    elminster said:
    The second season opener was better.

    AND

    Gillian's Island easter egg confirmed!
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,538
    We already had that Island in totsc, although then it was called balduran's island
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    BillyYank said:

    Then that's another obscure and parochial cultural reference to a character I've never heard of, played by an actor I've never heard of, in a show I've never heard of. This time I can't even be bothered to look it up, but I guess it's another purely North American reference.

    That actor you've never heard of played Gilligan on Gilligan's Island.
    I've heard of Gilligan's island, but only because characters in other US sitcoms mention it. I certainly have never seen it and don't know who was in it.

    Unlike the Addams Family, it never made it across the Atlantic (which seems appropriate, from what I gather it was about).
  • Grimo88Grimo88 Member Posts: 191
    edited January 2016
    Back to the OP's concern, I do and don't agree. Modernisms have always been a part of BGs writing. Anachronism is unavoidable, unless you want the entire game written in Middle English. But then again, in a fantasy world like this, you need to maintain immersion through your writing, and making references like this rob the player of all suspended disbelief. BG used to be really good at this, with random easter eggs in the middle of empty wilderness zones (my personal favourite being Bub Snikt). This didn't disrupt the story. Dragon Age is the worst offender - their characters all have perfect teeth and hairgel, and constantly reference Buffy or the Simpsons, while still taking themselves OH. SO. SERIOUS.

    I agree, the writing quality was very poor in the enhanced editions. This is the sole reason I've barely touched the new NPC content at all. Anachronisms and references like this are hallmarks of lazy or inexpert writing. I really hope this changes in the expansion, because BG without good writing would be like playing Mario without a jump button. Its integral to what makes BG BG.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Shakespeare is full of pop culture references (and fart jokes). It's not lazy or inexpert, it's just knowing your audience.

    Even making it "authentic" wouldn't actually BE authentic. We wouldn't understand the language or get the jokes, we would be overwhelmed by the smell and the bad teeth - things that someone native to that time wouldn't notice. You might as well make it as familiar to us as 15th century England would be to someone born in 15th century England.
  • Grimo88Grimo88 Member Posts: 191
    edited January 2016
    Fardragon said:

    Shakespeare is full of pop culture references (and fart jokes). It's not lazy or inexpert, it's just knowing your audience.

    Even making it "authentic" wouldn't actually BE authentic. We wouldn't understand the language or get the jokes, we would be overwhelmed by the smell and the bad teeth - things that someone native to that time wouldn't notice. You might as well make it as familiar to us as 15th century England would be to someone born in 15th century England.

    No one said anything about being authentic, just believable.

    Shakespeare made cultural allusions, yes, but he always respected his audience and made references that were appropriate. He wouldn't, for instance, make the characters in Julius Caesar quote the Bible, because his audience would understand that they were pagans, and that would yank them out of the plot. Quoting anachronistic popular ideas is just a lazy device when done in place of actual characterisation; it reveals nothing about the world or the character, their values, beliefs or motivations. It's just a stupid gag.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited January 2016
    Funny you should mention Julius Caeser: a play in which a clock chimes - over a thousand years before chiming clocks where invented.
    Post edited by Fardragon on
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited January 2016
    brus said:


    To conclude. Dragons and pianos, ilithids, sahuagin and demons show mixes of elements from all fantasies.
    Perhaps, it's not "black and white" to categorize BG universe in only one fantasy setting.

    I agree. Basically what I said a couple of pages back.

    FR is an amalgam of various fantasies, periods, influences and eras.

    Balors come from the Balrog from the Lord of the Rings lore.
    Erinyes is a Baatezu (Devil) that comes from Ancient Greece.
    Same with Medusas or Minotaurs or Sirenes.

    Lantan is a steam-punk nation with flying ships.

    Druids are ancient Celtic. Monks are oriental. Barbarians were based on Conan.

    http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http://www.geocities.com/rgfdfaq/sources.html&date=2007-07-20+21:51:07

    If anything, DnD was influenced more by Lord of the Rings, than the Middle Ages.
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    Grimo88 said:

    Back to the OP's concern, I do and don't agree. Modernisms have always been a part of BGs writing. Anachronism is unavoidable, unless you want the entire game written in Middle English. But then again, in a fantasy world like this, you need to maintain immersion through your writing, and making references like this rob the player of all suspended disbelief. BG used to be really good at this, with random easter eggs in the middle of empty wilderness zones (my personal favourite being Bub Snikt). This didn't disrupt the story. Dragon Age is the worst offender - their characters all have perfect teeth and hairgel, and constantly reference Buffy or the Simpsons, while still taking themselves OH. SO. SERIOUS.

    I agree, the writing quality was very poor in the enhanced editions. This is the sole reason I've barely touched the new NPC content at all. Anachronisms and references like this are hallmarks of lazy or inexpert writing. I really hope this changes in the expansion, because BG without good writing would be like playing Mario without a jump button. Its integral to what makes BG BG.

    OK, so how does having a NPC's first dialog with CHARNAME include "Leapin' Lavender Lizards!" "Holy Kitty Cacophony!" and "Aw... Nut bunnies" help maintain immersion? I'm trying to figure out how references to Depression-era comic characters, 1960s superhero TV shows, and 1990s cartoons about blue-skinned insane superheroes help create suspension of disbelief when meeting a pink-haired halfling.
  • Grimo88Grimo88 Member Posts: 191

    Grimo88 said:

    Back to the OP's concern, I do and don't agree. Modernisms have always been a part of BGs writing. Anachronism is unavoidable, unless you want the entire game written in Middle English. But then again, in a fantasy world like this, you need to maintain immersion through your writing, and making references like this rob the player of all suspended disbelief. BG used to be really good at this, with random easter eggs in the middle of empty wilderness zones (my personal favourite being Bub Snikt). This didn't disrupt the story. Dragon Age is the worst offender - their characters all have perfect teeth and hairgel, and constantly reference Buffy or the Simpsons, while still taking themselves OH. SO. SERIOUS.

    I agree, the writing quality was very poor in the enhanced editions. This is the sole reason I've barely touched the new NPC content at all. Anachronisms and references like this are hallmarks of lazy or inexpert writing. I really hope this changes in the expansion, because BG without good writing would be like playing Mario without a jump button. Its integral to what makes BG BG.

    OK, so how does having a NPC's first dialog with CHARNAME include "Leapin' Lavender Lizards!" "Holy Kitty Cacophony!" and "Aw... Nut bunnies" help maintain immersion? I'm trying to figure out how references to Depression-era comic characters, 1960s superhero TV shows, and 1990s cartoons about blue-skinned insane superheroes help create suspension of disbelief when meeting a pink-haired halfling.
    Um... it doesn't?
  • VitorVitor Member Posts: 288
    edited January 2016
    Seriously, guys. You, that prefere Forgotten Realms as a version of Harry Potter with swords and castles and that renegades the classic Camelot, Midgard or Middle-Earth feeling... You can just be sick.

    One or another good joke, is ok. Baldur's Gate had one or another joke. But they were not part of the foundations of the game. And, most of all, they're good jokes. When you use modernisms in something that is fundamental to the story, and they're mainly passable jokes - or neither jokes at all -, then you're undermining the ambiance of the story. That's what trouble me.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited January 2016
    Vitor said:

    Seriously, guys. You, that prefere Forgotten Realms as a version of Harry Potter with swords and castles and that renegades the classic Camelot, Midgard or Middle-Earth feeling... You can just be sick.

    One or another good joke, is ok. Baldur's Gate had one or another joke. But they were not part of the foundations of the game. And, most of all, they're good jokes. When you use modernisms in something that is fundamental to the story, and they're mainly passable jokes - or neither jokes at all -, then you're undermining the ambiance of the story. That's what trouble me.

    I prefer the Forgotten Realms as it was created.

    I have no objection to Grimdark Westeros clones, low magic Middle Earth clones, postapocalyptic Dark Sun, high magic space opera Spelljammer, real world historical, or modern set Harry Potter clones, etc. They are all valid and fun settings. What I don't do is object to an established setting not being the one-and-only setting I consider legitimate.
    Post edited by Fardragon on
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Now that I think of it there is also Quayle's "I am so smart! S M R T! I ̶ I mean S M A R T!". Which is from the Simpsons.
  • WinterisleWinterisle Member Posts: 111
    I like the least modern characters of the game: Minsc, Jaheira, Montaron... Montarons speech sounds pretty oldfashioned with his "ye this" and "ye that". I think it feels right for a D&D game. Quayle, Neera, Alora... they seem a little too modern american to me, when the BG1 atmosphere has a very medieval Europe feel to it. I don't think it matters that much in BG2 because of the steampunk touch to it, which makes everything valid.

    I must say that an NPC personality I like for a game like BG1 is Rasaad. He's soooooo New Age. He's like some mystical buddist bloke who just dropped over from Tibet to try a teach mindfulness to show people "the way". It's a real pitty he sucks so much as a fighter.
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