What will you do, if one your party member die ? ( Pernament die, his/her body explode ) Between " HARD CORE " player and STUPID player is very thin line...
@Dragonfolk2000 Squirrel or wolf change in battle is bad, but not permanent.
The caster's gender changes Target's sex changes All the party's gold is destroyed Destroy all gold on target
This are permanent effects.
Why do people keep saying that the sex changes are permanent? When I rest they go away, even in unmodded gameplay. I'm not sure about sex changes on the target but when it happens to one of my PCs it goes away after resting.
I also missed the part where permanent effects that were bad is something to whine about when there are other good things about the class. In real D&D you don't reload when you draw the Void card from the Deck of Many Things so why should there be the opportunity in a D&D simulation? You gotta take the bad with the good sometimes.
@Dragonfolk2000 do you figure #35 in the table is rireball or fireball? I'm sort of hoping that rireball is like an uber powerful version of fireball that incinerates trolls but does no damage to the caster.
I copied this list from someplace on google. I'm sure the all-powerful rireball is enough to stop anything in its tracks except for miniaturized giant space hamsters, but those are quite rare this time of- OH CRAP!
@Dragonfolk2000 Seems to me that the party in BG2 who try to kill you and then reload when they die is poking fun at this trope- having a hard time? Reload!
I love how some people make the assumption that those of us who don't like an arbitrarily drastic effect must be whiners who don't like negative consequences.
I don't mind reloading. That doesn't mean I don't like to roleplay, but if something happens that makes it so that I can't continue--such as losing all of my gold at a point in the game where I have no way to get it back (such as when I've already completed all of the side quests and sold the extra magic items for cash)--then it stops being a roleplaying element and starts being a hindrance to gameplay. If I'm trying to raise gold for Gaelan Bayle, I have no recourse but to either kill a bunch of innocent people to steal their stuff, or reload an earlier save.
If one of your party members gets turned to stone, there are easy ways to reverse the effect. If three of your party members get killed in a fireball, you can resurrect them at a temple. If these things are too cumbersome, you can reload, but that's more a convenience issue than a gameplay issue. You can still proceed. (Unless the party member that got stoned or killed is the protagonist.)
I don't think it's unreasonable to reduce the effects of something that is not explicitly described in the manual (meaning that changing it does not disrupt the spirit of the rules), which also has the potential to prevent the player from moving forward in the game. The point is, if something irreversible happens, there needs to be a reasonable way to undo the damage.
If you have 100,000 gold and there are no sources of gold left because you've completed all the side quests and looted all the containers, and then you get hit with this, you're SOL. Not "Oh well, them's the breaks, let's sell some stuff", but "This is a really stupid reason to have to reload my game."
Making it a percentage, even a large percentage, would turn that situation from a "must reload" into a "That sucks, but oh well". The player can continue playing, or the player can reload, but the effect itself does not prevent the player from moving forward in the game's plot.
@Aosaw Knowing this is a possibility beforehand, what's wrong with planning ahead? That is, stashing high-gold items for a rainy day and paying off Gaelen *before* you finish every single sidequest in the game?
Also, there's other negative events that fit your model. If NPCs get chunked, you have no choice but to reload if you still want them in your party.
I played a wild mage before and had the lose all gold surge happen to me. Also had my last haste spell turn into a bunch of squirrels in a tough battle. Neither situation was a game stopper because I knew I could lose my gold in a surge, so I kept my most expensive itens stashed, selling when I needed gold. Also the squirrels actually had me laughing while I changed my tactics due to no haste.
So I think wild mages are fun and need no changes in the wild surges table. I'd like to see more wild spells in the game though. There's a mod that adds many new spells for wild mages that I'd reccommend to anyone planning to play one. Wild Magic Additions or something similar.
And before someone argues that they're not newbie friendly, try to play a lvl 1 monk or kensai to see how hard it is.
What I'm saying is that you shouldn't have to plan for an event that has a 1 in 2000 chance of happening. If you make the decision to play through all the side quests first, there is no character reason why you should be worried about suddenly losing all your gold.
This is an event that happens for one of two reasons: either you wild surge normally (a 5% chance per spellcasting) and happen to roll a 17 (a 1% chance per wild surge); or you cast Reckless Dweomer knowing that the consequences might be dire (a 1% chance per casting of Reckless Dweomer).
If you're casting Reckless Dweomer, you know what you're getting into. If you aren't casting Reckless Dweomer, you have no reason to expect this kind of disastrous outcome.
I'm not saying get rid of the effect. I'm saying, make the effect painful without causing the player unnecessary grief. Reloading because of character death? Acceptable. Hard core players will move on because the story can still continue. Reloading because the plot is frozen in place because you happened to sell a bunch of stuff right before that rarest of effects took your gold away? Not acceptable. Even a hard core player will be unable to move forward.
I would feel better about the effect if, say, all the gold was distributed evenly to a number of predetermined chests throughout the world. This would allow the player to recover their gold, albeit at the cost of having to go get it again. Again--painful, but not game-breaking.
But then, I follow a philosophy of "don't break the fun". Explain to me how being unable to continue because all the gold in the game was destroyed just because it happened to be in your inventory at the time of a 1-in-100 wild surge is fun. If you can describe to me what this effect adds to gameplay, then we can start talking about it a little more directly.
Well, there are two sides of it, which you have to consider when you're looking at a video game (or any RPG, tabletop or otherwise). On the one hand, if there's a downside, there ought to be an upside. If the downside is reduced in potency, then so should the upside be.
On the other hand, a spell's effect is only ever experienced once. So a wild surge that doubles the effect of a fireball will potentially turn the tide of a single battle. It might make that battle a lot easier (depending on whether you're fighting a group of kobolds or a silver dragon), but in the grand scheme of things its effects are only felt for roughly thirty seconds. A wild surge that turns a party member to stone lasts only until you cast Stone to Flesh--either from a scroll or with a priest. A wild surge that destroys the party's entire cache of gold is something that is felt for the rest of the game. There is no way to recover that gold. You can get more gold from adventuring, but you will always be 5, 10, 200, 5000, or 100,000 gold behind where you ought to be for your level. It's a permanent handicap, which is something that the wild surge table is not designed to do.
And that's going to be the case whether it destroys all of your gold or just a portion of it. But making the value be proportional to how much gold you actually have makes it something that is a permanent handicap but not a permanent handicap that is the same potency as a doubled spell effect. That's more the purview of a Deck of Many Things, not a class ability.
@Bercon you are correct I had forgotten about what happens when you add a roll, caster level, and any chaos shields and get a score over 100. Not that it matters but the casters level is capped at 20 for any spell, and I imagine the Dweomer is no different (since the cap was introduced in TOB).
@aosaw (and others) keep on pointing out that if the wild surge happens you will lose all your gold and be unable to advance particularly because you need 15,000 to advance either with the Bodhi or Gaelen's quest line. Isn't the simple answer then that people who raise that amount of money and are playing/have a wild mage in party should then go give Gaelen or Bodhi the money? I mean they do approach you both to tell you that you can go, and I bet a lot of new players would at least go to check out the new offer. They can still then choose to reject leaving for the aslyum until they are ready of course.
It is still possible to raise that kind of money even if do end up losing all your money, though I admit that it would be a tedious experience. Besides stealing items and selling them to the shadow thieves (which I think may get fixed in BG2EE), in the first part of the windspear dungeons if I'm not mistaken kobolds will summon when you rest, who generally have gold on them. Likewise in the sewers and beneath them there are areas where enemies will be summoned upon resting. It is going to take a long time for you to get the the point where you have the kind of money you need, but it is still possible to do. Just make sure your wild mage sticks to using cheap slings or darts. Besides, if by that point you have completed all the side quests there still is Watcher's Keep.
I would say this effect being as it is now adds to the game in that it exemplifies completely the single greatest consequence of being or playing with a wild mage, reliability. Reliability doesn't have to be just about your chance of successfully casting a spell, why can't reliability be also about your chances of being able to complete the game with the character to begin with? I would say that this effect, coupled with the opportunities that you have to gain money no matter what happens in the game, make this class to be exactly what it should be. Fun because it being unreliable makes the game more challenging.
why can't reliability be also about your chances of being able to complete the game with the character to begin with?
Specifically? Because when I play a game, I want to know that after everything is said and done, I will be able to complete the quest. I don't expect to find myself in a corner with no way back.
If you happen to miss the loss of gold in the dialogue window (not all that unheard of, considering that it's just one line, and if it happens during combat, that one line could easily get lost in the stream of actions taking place), and you continue traveling, maybe quick save or travel to a different area, and then you discover that your gold has suddenly disappeared, you have no way of going back to fix it. If you made the mistake of not stashing some high-gold items in a chest somewhere specifically for this situation (which is kind of a metagamey solution in general...), your only recourse is to start your game over. At no point in the game should this happen because of a built-in mechanic.
Now, granted we're talking about a very specific effect in very specific circumstances. You have to be at a point in BG2 where you've completed all the side quests before speaking to Gaelan Bayle or Bodhi to pay them, which means that you have found and acquired all of the gold that there is to be acquired at that point in the game. You also have to have sold all the equipment that you intend to sell.
That said, none of those circumstances are particularly unusual. A lot of players shy away from main story objectives until they have completed everything they can in terms of side quests and dungeons. And if you happen to be one of those players, there's a chance--and a chance rare enough that it is perfectly reasonable not to expect it to happen ever--that you will get screwed by the game engine and be forced to reload or restart your game.
It's not metagaming actually. Worst things could happen in a P&P game and my wild mage was well aware of it.
Anyway we wouldn't walk around with a mountain of gold. In the worst case we'd buy gems at a loss to the group, normally.
And in my P&P games we used an even harder wild surge table that had 1000 possible outcomes, actually 10 tables of 100. One of them was all itens in 10 feet of the caster must save or be disintegrated. That I couln't possibly prepare for, so we always had spare itens stashed somewhere else.
Elminster pointed a few ways to be prepared for the scenario you point, so did I. BG has always been a game where you have to think before you act.
The first time I fought a lich I had to run away. My first reaction was "are they nuts? There's no way I can defeat it with a level 11 group". So I stopped to think and realized there was.
Ever tried to play a lvl1 monk? You'll run away. A lot.
So I agree that a wild mage may not be newbie friendly, mainly if the newbie doesn't care to read the game manual before playing.
Should they change it? No way! No more than they should change the monk. Unrealibility is the flavour of this class. If you want realibilty play a normal mage or sorcerer.
The game manual doesn't say "all the party's gold is destroyed". The manual says "Gold on caster is destroyed".
At best, the effect should only remove 1/6 of the party's gold, because only 1/6 of the party's gold is being carried by the caster. I pointed this out a while ago.
Also, I think you're making a mistake of confusing unreliability in the game's engine (i.e. something can happen that will prevent you from completing a story-required quest) with unreliability in a class's abilities (i.e. your spell might blow up in your face).
I want unreliability in the wild mage. I think it's amazing. What I don't want is unreliability in the game itself. The fix is simple, and it still hurts. I don't see why you think this would be a bad thing.
Before EE the only way to have a wild mage in the party was if you made one. Only CHARNAME could be a wildmage. CHARNAME controls party gold and equipment, so not even once I assumed only 1/6 of the gold would be destroyed.
Now that we have a wild mage NPC I see a need to change the manual, of course.
Ok. Looked at it. Basically I see no need to change it because I don't see it as a gamebreaker. They actually made the Wild Mage quite true to the P&P version.
If there was no way to prepare for the eventuality or no way to recover from it if you didn't prepare yourself then I'd say this is a gamebreaker effect that needs changing.
What will you do, if one your party member die ? ( Pernament die, his/her body explode ) Between " HARD CORE " player and STUPID player is very thin line...
There are over a dozen NPCs, everyone is expendable, even Imoen!
Ok ok, If Imoen was critical hit to bits I would reload, but I would make exceptions for others. The point is, reloading isn't always necessary and the game can be completed in hundreds of ways.
I know this has been suggested prior, but perhaps the best way to approach this then is to say that on Core D&D difficulty the effect remains as is, but on easier difficulties (normal + easy) you only lose perhaps a lesser amount. Still, this talk of everyone carrying some of the gold in the party is not accurate. When NPC's leave the party (without dying) I don't recall them taking their share of the gold, so I don't see why the game should treat it as if they are holding on to it to begin with.
why can't reliability be also about your chances of being able to complete the game with the character to begin with?
Specifically? Because when I play a game, I want to know that after everything is said and done, I will be able to complete the quest. I don't expect to find myself in a corner with no way back.
If you happen to miss the loss of gold in the dialogue window (not all that unheard of, considering that it's just one line, and if it happens during combat, that one line could easily get lost in the stream of actions taking place), and you continue traveling, maybe quick save or travel to a different area, and then you discover that your gold has suddenly disappeared, you have no way of going back to fix it. If you made the mistake of not stashing some high-gold items in a chest somewhere specifically for this situation (which is kind of a metagamey solution in general...), your only recourse is to start your game over. At no point in the game should this happen because of a built-in mechanic.
Now, granted we're talking about a very specific effect in very specific circumstances. You have to be at a point in BG2 where you've completed all the side quests before speaking to Gaelan Bayle or Bodhi to pay them, which means that you have found and acquired all of the gold that there is to be acquired at that point in the game. You also have to have sold all the equipment that you intend to sell.
That said, none of those circumstances are particularly unusual. A lot of players shy away from main story objectives until they have completed everything they can in terms of side quests and dungeons. And if you happen to be one of those players, there's a chance--and a chance rare enough that it is perfectly reasonable not to expect it to happen ever--that you will get screwed by the game engine and be forced to reload or restart your game.
Does that all make sense?
Not really. When I have a wild surge I look at what just happened, because in this case it would mean that I am not casting a spell. Kind of an important thing in the middle of a battle as you say. So I hardly see that it would be at all likely that people would miss this, especially if they are after the battle reorganising their inventory. I don't know why you would not look to see what effect your wild surge caused.
I've already pointed out that it is not impossible for you to recollect the gold. You could steal items from stores using Jan and resell them to one of the more nefarious shop keepers in the game (generally the shadow thieves though the lady in the slums might take them) to get the money you need. Beyond that grinding your way through parts of the game where monsters re-summon in order to collect the money you need to advance is always an option. It is not ideal mind you, but it is an option.
Edit: Prior to me editing this repeatedly this is my 500th comment...so I inherently have to say that it is the single greatest comment ever. Even though it isn't.
So if I want a wild mage--or if I want to have Neera in my party at all--I also have to have a thief and steal things from a shopkeeper? What if my wild mage is Lawful Good?
All of these ideas are work-arounds that can break the immersion for a player because they dictate how the player should play the game, and if the player decides not to follow those specific instructions, they might reach a point where they will never be able to complete the game (or will have to spend several hours grinding just to recover enough gold to proceed).
If this were tabletop, it would be different. The DM can create new quests for the party to recover their gold. In a video game, however--and actually, specifically in BG2--the amount of gold that exists is finite. Apart from re-spawning enemies (dropping, what--50 gold at a time?), there is no way for the party to recover their wealth to meet the requirements for the main story's quest.
And what makes it feel like a big middle finger to the player is that it is unavoidable within the parameters of the class. Any wild mage, just casting spells, has a chance of this happening. When it deals damage, it sucks, but you can adapt and recover, because hit points are something you can get back. When it turns someone to stone, it really really sucks, but you can recover with a Stone to Flesh spell--which means that in BG2, it will usually be a non-issue ultimately (at worst, you have to rest for eight hours).
If you're in the middle of a pitched battle, not every player is going to pause to read the battle log. A lot of players are going to just keep going forward. A lot of players aren't going to notice this until they go to a town and try to buy something with no money.
Your response to those players seems to be that they shouldn't play wild mages. But what we're talking about is a 1 in 2000 event. Most wild mage players will never have to worry about. Most wild mage players will be prepared for wild colors and groups of squirrels. Most wild mage players don't even know about the "gold is destroyed" effect, because it has never happened to them and maybe they prefer to play the game without consulting the manual for everything. Or maybe they don't think about it because it says "Gold is destroyed on the caster" and not "The entire party's gold is destroyed".
If it were me, if I saw that in the manual for a new game, I'd never play a wild mage. A chance of my party being killed is a risk, but it's a risk that can either be prevented or reversed with spells. A chance of all my progress being destroyed in one fell swoop is a turn-off.
I've never played a game before that had a hidden "self-destruct" button on a player option (or even one that wasn't hidden; I've never seen a game that allowed the player to choose an option that would prevent the player from going forward by design). Have you?
I'm not saying that it needs to be stated more clearly. I'm saying that it needs to not be a "self-destruct" button.
The Gaelan Bayle/Bodhi point is a good one, albeit something you won't run into in BG1. I like @Aosaw's suggestion of a story event where you try to get your gold back, but since a surge can happen anywhere, it's probably not possible to implement in time.
How about destroying all non-quest items on the caster instead? It would still hurt your wallet - not to mention your combat effectiveness - and if you have collector's OCD like me, ouch. But you wouldn't get stuck or be forced to grind, and the effect scales nicely with your in-game progress. With gold, it's really important at the start of BG2 and then you reach a point where it's just a number since there's little to buy.
It also makes sense, from a roleplaying perspective, to keep your Wild Mage away from rare and expensive things. Plus it would add some humor when your caster suddenly appears in their underwear!
@Jalily I would even be fine with the "story event" only taking place during Shadows of Amn. Maybe there's a side quest where you go and find the bugger responsible for stealing all your gold during wild surges. After you kill him, you never get that wild surge again.
Again, my primary problem with this particular effect is that it has the potential to prevent you from completing the only main-story quest that actually requires gold. Everything else I can endure, but not getting stuck in the middle of the game because of a bad dice roll.
I find myself in agreement with Aosaw. I mean, I am all in for the game being more difficult or challenging, but in the right way. When the difficulty is scaled because of some silly reason like "all party gold is destroyed" then it stops being fun, it feels forced.
The solutions you guys are providing for evading the possible issue Aosaw has pointed out (not being able to pay Gaelan) feel forced too.
I will definitively be playing with Neera and if this situation rises I´ll probably re load or maybe cluaconsole less gold than I used to have. No biggie. Everyone should play the game the way they enjoy it the most.
@aosaw You asked for a game and I'll give you one. Kings quest VI. Like a lot of those adventure style games, if you don't have the items you need to progress you can be stuck in a place and be unable to advance (and can't go back to get them). Does not stop it from being one of the best games either in that category. In that case like in this the fault lies more with the player and not with the designer.
[Spoiler]
There already are times in the game when you have to break with your alignment in order to proceed with your quest. I mean, you are giving money to either the shadow thieves or vampires, and providing them with assistance in order to become the dominant underworld force in the city. Not only that, but you are breaking into a lawfully created asylum in order to take back your friend from imprisonment by a group who has the lawful authority to do as they will with mages who ignore the law. Neither of these actions by your character are lawful, though they may be construed at least as being good (though keep in mind, by that point your character is unaware that Irenicus has taken over). So the game itself inherently forces you to defy your own alignment in order to proceed with the campaign already. [/Spoiler] Point is, if you have to steal from a few people in order to get the money to proceed with your already unlawful quest, I don't see what the big deal is.
Hey, if the developers want to have Neera penniless on the street because she just blew away her last bit of coin because of her wild magic I'd have no problem with her explaining this to the player when you first meet her. It could serve as a warning for future players. Heck, like I said before it you want to have it based on difficulty I'd have no issues with that either. But for the core ad&d and above difficulty I say it should be left as is. If modders don't like it, they can always mod it out of the game. Meanwhile new players can always stick with lower difficulty settings like normal/easy.
@elminster I see where the dissonance is coming from. You think that the game being suddenly and arbitrarily unbeatable is good design, whereas I think it's atrocious design.
I've never met anyone who applauded a game for screwing the player on purpose. I guess I feel like Baldur's Gate is about the story, not about all the ways in which you can get stuck for no reason.
@jalily Your idea is interesting, although its effects could potentially be even worse in the long run. A wild surge shouldn't be able to destroy a powerful magic item like the Staff of Rynn, for example.
I would support an idea that caused the caster's equipment--armor, weapons, and inventory--to drop on the ground, however. That would be a terrible thing to have happen during combat, since you can't equip armor during combat, but it wouldn't break any quests.
I think you are taking the tiniest aspect of the game and overblowing it as if it is a significant problem, when there are workaround within the game for players already.
Comments
Not Sure if Trolling, or Just Stupid.
What will you do, if one your party member die ? ( Pernament die, his/her body explode )
Between " HARD CORE " player and STUPID player is very thin line...
I also missed the part where permanent effects that were bad is something to whine about when there are other good things about the class. In real D&D you don't reload when you draw the Void card from the Deck of Many Things so why should there be the opportunity in a D&D simulation? You gotta take the bad with the good sometimes. I copied this list from someplace on google. I'm sure the all-powerful rireball is enough to stop anything in its tracks except for miniaturized giant space hamsters, but those are quite rare this time of- OH CRAP!
I don't mind reloading. That doesn't mean I don't like to roleplay, but if something happens that makes it so that I can't continue--such as losing all of my gold at a point in the game where I have no way to get it back (such as when I've already completed all of the side quests and sold the extra magic items for cash)--then it stops being a roleplaying element and starts being a hindrance to gameplay. If I'm trying to raise gold for Gaelan Bayle, I have no recourse but to either kill a bunch of innocent people to steal their stuff, or reload an earlier save.
If one of your party members gets turned to stone, there are easy ways to reverse the effect. If three of your party members get killed in a fireball, you can resurrect them at a temple. If these things are too cumbersome, you can reload, but that's more a convenience issue than a gameplay issue. You can still proceed. (Unless the party member that got stoned or killed is the protagonist.)
I don't think it's unreasonable to reduce the effects of something that is not explicitly described in the manual (meaning that changing it does not disrupt the spirit of the rules), which also has the potential to prevent the player from moving forward in the game. The point is, if something irreversible happens, there needs to be a reasonable way to undo the damage.
If you have 100,000 gold and there are no sources of gold left because you've completed all the side quests and looted all the containers, and then you get hit with this, you're SOL. Not "Oh well, them's the breaks, let's sell some stuff", but "This is a really stupid reason to have to reload my game."
Making it a percentage, even a large percentage, would turn that situation from a "must reload" into a "That sucks, but oh well". The player can continue playing, or the player can reload, but the effect itself does not prevent the player from moving forward in the game's plot.
Also, there's other negative events that fit your model. If NPCs get chunked, you have no choice but to reload if you still want them in your party.
So I think wild mages are fun and need no changes in the wild surges table. I'd like to see more wild spells in the game though. There's a mod that adds many new spells for wild mages that I'd reccommend to anyone planning to play one. Wild Magic Additions or something similar.
And before someone argues that they're not newbie friendly, try to play a lvl 1 monk or kensai to see how hard it is.
This is an event that happens for one of two reasons: either you wild surge normally (a 5% chance per spellcasting) and happen to roll a 17 (a 1% chance per wild surge); or you cast Reckless Dweomer knowing that the consequences might be dire (a 1% chance per casting of Reckless Dweomer).
If you're casting Reckless Dweomer, you know what you're getting into. If you aren't casting Reckless Dweomer, you have no reason to expect this kind of disastrous outcome.
I'm not saying get rid of the effect. I'm saying, make the effect painful without causing the player unnecessary grief. Reloading because of character death? Acceptable. Hard core players will move on because the story can still continue. Reloading because the plot is frozen in place because you happened to sell a bunch of stuff right before that rarest of effects took your gold away? Not acceptable. Even a hard core player will be unable to move forward.
I would feel better about the effect if, say, all the gold was distributed evenly to a number of predetermined chests throughout the world. This would allow the player to recover their gold, albeit at the cost of having to go get it again. Again--painful, but not game-breaking.
But then, I follow a philosophy of "don't break the fun". Explain to me how being unable to continue because all the gold in the game was destroyed just because it happened to be in your inventory at the time of a 1-in-100 wild surge is fun. If you can describe to me what this effect adds to gameplay, then we can start talking about it a little more directly.
But if you know it can happen then get ready for it. Why would you be walking around with millions of gold anyway?
Should we nerf the double efficay wild surges as well? It was really fun when those happened.
On the other hand, a spell's effect is only ever experienced once. So a wild surge that doubles the effect of a fireball will potentially turn the tide of a single battle. It might make that battle a lot easier (depending on whether you're fighting a group of kobolds or a silver dragon), but in the grand scheme of things its effects are only felt for roughly thirty seconds. A wild surge that turns a party member to stone lasts only until you cast Stone to Flesh--either from a scroll or with a priest. A wild surge that destroys the party's entire cache of gold is something that is felt for the rest of the game. There is no way to recover that gold. You can get more gold from adventuring, but you will always be 5, 10, 200, 5000, or 100,000 gold behind where you ought to be for your level. It's a permanent handicap, which is something that the wild surge table is not designed to do.
And that's going to be the case whether it destroys all of your gold or just a portion of it. But making the value be proportional to how much gold you actually have makes it something that is a permanent handicap but not a permanent handicap that is the same potency as a doubled spell effect. That's more the purview of a Deck of Many Things, not a class ability.
@aosaw (and others) keep on pointing out that if the wild surge happens you will lose all your gold and be unable to advance particularly because you need 15,000 to advance either with the Bodhi or Gaelen's quest line. Isn't the simple answer then that people who raise that amount of money and are playing/have a wild mage in party should then go give Gaelen or Bodhi the money? I mean they do approach you both to tell you that you can go, and I bet a lot of new players would at least go to check out the new offer. They can still then choose to reject leaving for the aslyum until they are ready of course.
It is still possible to raise that kind of money even if do end up losing all your money, though I admit that it would be a tedious experience. Besides stealing items and selling them to the shadow thieves (which I think may get fixed in BG2EE), in the first part of the windspear dungeons if I'm not mistaken kobolds will summon when you rest, who generally have gold on them. Likewise in the sewers and beneath them there are areas where enemies will be summoned upon resting. It is going to take a long time for you to get the the point where you have the kind of money you need, but it is still possible to do. Just make sure your wild mage sticks to using cheap slings or darts. Besides, if by that point you have completed all the side quests there still is Watcher's Keep.
I would say this effect being as it is now adds to the game in that it exemplifies completely the single greatest consequence of being or playing with a wild mage, reliability. Reliability doesn't have to be just about your chance of successfully casting a spell, why can't reliability be also about your chances of being able to complete the game with the character to begin with? I would say that this effect, coupled with the opportunities that you have to gain money no matter what happens in the game, make this class to be exactly what it should be. Fun because it being unreliable makes the game more challenging.
If you happen to miss the loss of gold in the dialogue window (not all that unheard of, considering that it's just one line, and if it happens during combat, that one line could easily get lost in the stream of actions taking place), and you continue traveling, maybe quick save or travel to a different area, and then you discover that your gold has suddenly disappeared, you have no way of going back to fix it. If you made the mistake of not stashing some high-gold items in a chest somewhere specifically for this situation (which is kind of a metagamey solution in general...), your only recourse is to start your game over. At no point in the game should this happen because of a built-in mechanic.
Now, granted we're talking about a very specific effect in very specific circumstances. You have to be at a point in BG2 where you've completed all the side quests before speaking to Gaelan Bayle or Bodhi to pay them, which means that you have found and acquired all of the gold that there is to be acquired at that point in the game. You also have to have sold all the equipment that you intend to sell.
That said, none of those circumstances are particularly unusual. A lot of players shy away from main story objectives until they have completed everything they can in terms of side quests and dungeons. And if you happen to be one of those players, there's a chance--and a chance rare enough that it is perfectly reasonable not to expect it to happen ever--that you will get screwed by the game engine and be forced to reload or restart your game.
Does that all make sense?
Anyway we wouldn't walk around with a mountain of gold. In the worst case we'd buy gems at a loss to the group, normally.
And in my P&P games we used an even harder wild surge table that had 1000 possible outcomes, actually 10 tables of 100. One of them was all itens in 10 feet of the caster must save or be disintegrated. That I couln't possibly prepare for, so we always had spare itens stashed somewhere else.
Elminster pointed a few ways to be prepared for the scenario you point, so did I. BG has always been a game where you have to think before you act.
The first time I fought a lich I had to run away. My first reaction was "are they nuts? There's no way I can defeat it with a level 11 group". So I stopped to think and realized there was.
Ever tried to play a lvl1 monk? You'll run away. A lot.
So I agree that a wild mage may not be newbie friendly, mainly if the newbie doesn't care to read the game manual before playing.
Should they change it? No way! No more than they should change the monk. Unrealibility is the flavour of this class. If you want realibilty play a normal mage or sorcerer.
At best, the effect should only remove 1/6 of the party's gold, because only 1/6 of the party's gold is being carried by the caster. I pointed this out a while ago.
Also, I think you're making a mistake of confusing unreliability in the game's engine (i.e. something can happen that will prevent you from completing a story-required quest) with unreliability in a class's abilities (i.e. your spell might blow up in your face).
I want unreliability in the wild mage. I think it's amazing. What I don't want is unreliability in the game itself. The fix is simple, and it still hurts. I don't see why you think this would be a bad thing.
Now that we have a wild mage NPC I see a need to change the manual, of course.
If there was no way to prepare for the eventuality or no way to recover from it if you didn't prepare yourself then I'd say this is a gamebreaker effect that needs changing.
Ok ok, If Imoen was critical hit to bits I would reload, but I would make exceptions for others. The point is, reloading isn't always necessary and the game can be completed in hundreds of ways.
If you happen to miss the loss of gold in the dialogue window (not all that unheard of, considering that it's just one line, and if it happens during combat, that one line could easily get lost in the stream of actions taking place), and you continue traveling, maybe quick save or travel to a different area, and then you discover that your gold has suddenly disappeared, you have no way of going back to fix it. If you made the mistake of not stashing some high-gold items in a chest somewhere specifically for this situation (which is kind of a metagamey solution in general...), your only recourse is to start your game over. At no point in the game should this happen because of a built-in mechanic.
Now, granted we're talking about a very specific effect in very specific circumstances. You have to be at a point in BG2 where you've completed all the side quests before speaking to Gaelan Bayle or Bodhi to pay them, which means that you have found and acquired all of the gold that there is to be acquired at that point in the game. You also have to have sold all the equipment that you intend to sell.
That said, none of those circumstances are particularly unusual. A lot of players shy away from main story objectives until they have completed everything they can in terms of side quests and dungeons. And if you happen to be one of those players, there's a chance--and a chance rare enough that it is perfectly reasonable not to expect it to happen ever--that you will get screwed by the game engine and be forced to reload or restart your game.
Does that all make sense?
Not really. When I have a wild surge I look at what just happened, because in this case it would mean that I am not casting a spell. Kind of an important thing in the middle of a battle as you say. So I hardly see that it would be at all likely that people would miss this, especially if they are after the battle reorganising their inventory. I don't know why you would not look to see what effect your wild surge caused.
I've already pointed out that it is not impossible for you to recollect the gold. You could steal items from stores using Jan and resell them to one of the more nefarious shop keepers in the game (generally the shadow thieves though the lady in the slums might take them) to get the money you need. Beyond that grinding your way through parts of the game where monsters re-summon in order to collect the money you need to advance is always an option. It is not ideal mind you, but it is an option.
Edit: Prior to me editing this repeatedly this is my 500th comment...so I inherently have to say that it is the single greatest comment ever. Even though it isn't.
All of these ideas are work-arounds that can break the immersion for a player because they dictate how the player should play the game, and if the player decides not to follow those specific instructions, they might reach a point where they will never be able to complete the game (or will have to spend several hours grinding just to recover enough gold to proceed).
If this were tabletop, it would be different. The DM can create new quests for the party to recover their gold. In a video game, however--and actually, specifically in BG2--the amount of gold that exists is finite. Apart from re-spawning enemies (dropping, what--50 gold at a time?), there is no way for the party to recover their wealth to meet the requirements for the main story's quest.
And what makes it feel like a big middle finger to the player is that it is unavoidable within the parameters of the class. Any wild mage, just casting spells, has a chance of this happening. When it deals damage, it sucks, but you can adapt and recover, because hit points are something you can get back. When it turns someone to stone, it really really sucks, but you can recover with a Stone to Flesh spell--which means that in BG2, it will usually be a non-issue ultimately (at worst, you have to rest for eight hours).
If you're in the middle of a pitched battle, not every player is going to pause to read the battle log. A lot of players are going to just keep going forward. A lot of players aren't going to notice this until they go to a town and try to buy something with no money.
Your response to those players seems to be that they shouldn't play wild mages. But what we're talking about is a 1 in 2000 event. Most wild mage players will never have to worry about. Most wild mage players will be prepared for wild colors and groups of squirrels. Most wild mage players don't even know about the "gold is destroyed" effect, because it has never happened to them and maybe they prefer to play the game without consulting the manual for everything. Or maybe they don't think about it because it says "Gold is destroyed on the caster" and not "The entire party's gold is destroyed".
If it were me, if I saw that in the manual for a new game, I'd never play a wild mage. A chance of my party being killed is a risk, but it's a risk that can either be prevented or reversed with spells. A chance of all my progress being destroyed in one fell swoop is a turn-off.
I really like way you think.
I'm not saying that it needs to be stated more clearly. I'm saying that it needs to not be a "self-destruct" button.
How about destroying all non-quest items on the caster instead? It would still hurt your wallet - not to mention your combat effectiveness - and if you have collector's OCD like me, ouch. But you wouldn't get stuck or be forced to grind, and the effect scales nicely with your in-game progress. With gold, it's really important at the start of BG2 and then you reach a point where it's just a number since there's little to buy.
It also makes sense, from a roleplaying perspective, to keep your Wild Mage away from rare and expensive things.
Again, my primary problem with this particular effect is that it has the potential to prevent you from completing the only main-story quest that actually requires gold. Everything else I can endure, but not getting stuck in the middle of the game because of a bad dice roll.
The solutions you guys are providing for evading the possible issue Aosaw has pointed out (not being able to pay Gaelan) feel forced too.
I will definitively be playing with Neera and if this situation rises I´ll probably re load or maybe cluaconsole less gold than I used to have. No biggie. Everyone should play the game the way they enjoy it the most.
[Spoiler]
There already are times in the game when you have to break with your alignment in order to proceed with your quest. I mean, you are giving money to either the shadow thieves or vampires, and providing them with assistance in order to become the dominant underworld force in the city. Not only that, but you are breaking into a lawfully created asylum in order to take back your friend from imprisonment by a group who has the lawful authority to do as they will with mages who ignore the law. Neither of these actions by your character are lawful, though they may be construed at least as being good (though keep in mind, by that point your character is unaware that Irenicus has taken over). So the game itself inherently forces you to defy your own alignment in order to proceed with the campaign already. [/Spoiler] Point is, if you have to steal from a few people in order to get the money to proceed with your already unlawful quest, I don't see what the big deal is.
Hey, if the developers want to have Neera penniless on the street because she just blew away her last bit of coin because of her wild magic I'd have no problem with her explaining this to the player when you first meet her. It could serve as a warning for future players. Heck, like I said before it you want to have it based on difficulty I'd have no issues with that either. But for the core ad&d and above difficulty I say it should be left as is. If modders don't like it, they can always mod it out of the game. Meanwhile new players can always stick with lower difficulty settings like normal/easy.
I've never met anyone who applauded a game for screwing the player on purpose. I guess I feel like Baldur's Gate is about the story, not about all the ways in which you can get stuck for no reason.
@jalily Your idea is interesting, although its effects could potentially be even worse in the long run. A wild surge shouldn't be able to destroy a powerful magic item like the Staff of Rynn, for example.
I would support an idea that caused the caster's equipment--armor, weapons, and inventory--to drop on the ground, however. That would be a terrible thing to have happen during combat, since you can't equip armor during combat, but it wouldn't break any quests.